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So how long are we going to leave this ZERO counterplay in the game?

  • NBrookus
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    And yet people whine about players getting tankier. Every death recap like this one pushes people farther into tankiness. Ironically, if the poison enchant hadn't proc'd I wouldn't have instantly died... but I would have died to the 2nd ganker there running the same build, because all the NB gankers play with safety blankets now.

    Strange how no one pointed out the possibilities with Onslaught on the PTS. Oh wait...

    0LM5LQX.png

    (Hint #1 cracked me up.)
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  • Callous2208
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    Same thing in every mmo since the dawn of time, and it will never change. I honestly wish they would just remove the rogue/assasin archetype from all competiive games. Makes no sense and causes more issues with balance than any other class. Besides, let's face it, who plays these builds in every mmo? The unskilled basement dwellers seeking pvp glory without the challenge of actually engaging in pvp.
  • Rohamad_Ali
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    Gankered .

    Gankered Hard .

    Mount Gankered .

    Good gawd Sypher ... That stam alchemist empowered Ult nomsense leaves no room for game play .
  • CyrusArya
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    @cjthibs

    I guess my point flew over your head completely. A monopoly prevents competition because a select few control the market. Thats not at all the case here because the upper limit of performance is available to any one if they should seek it. No one is preventing anyone from being competitive. And when I say soft caps are analogous to communism, I mean in philosophy as I have already expressed. That people who excel should be arbitrarily punished to compensate for those who under perform.

    As far as I am concerned, the game is pretty balanced and competitive. If you feel that the game isn't competitive, its because you aren't competitive.
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  • Cathexis
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    The guy definitely runs some epic builds. No doubt. But ya no counterplay is the issue for me. I can think of only 1 thing that can counter this, and it is only a defensive counter.
    Derra wrote: »
    DHale wrote: »
    Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

    Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

    "Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

    Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

    This is the problem I have with the current pvp environment. "Oh you just have to run counters" when they take up 10/12 skill slots doesn't leave any creative margin for offensive play (or very little).
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  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    _
    Edited by Cathexis on February 23, 2017 12:59AM
    The Tomb of FPS Alteration Magic - Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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    Praise Malacath.
  • t3hdubzy
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    So take away cloak and u make nightblades no longer a nightblade, might as well call them an assasin... oh wait you dont want them to kill people quickly, quietly, or from stealth.

    Maybe call them peasants?

    Seriously if you got hit with a focused arrow full of poison in this realm or another, whilst unkowning it was even coming, you want to shrug it off?

    Lets just do everything we can to make sure no one can gank anyone. We should all meet out in the field and duel properly. Or better yet lets only zerg, but only if numbers are equal and everyone plays fair.

    Nevermind there are plenty of builds out there that this type of play doesnt work on. As a pro ganker i still have a tough time with many of players. Theres the players that dodge every single one of my attacks. The players that take no damage from my attacks. That shield that stuns me if i attack with my bow first. The player that can break my fear at 5 percent health and heal to full health.

    Even if I go glass cannon, theres a lot of players out thrre with builds that do just fine countering my ganks.

    Just because you cant counter this build or are unwilling to change your build to counter it doesnt mean its broken. Everyone has a weakness, what are you willing to give up to counter this?
  • cjthibs
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    @cjthibs

    I guess my point flew over your head completely. A monopoly prevents competition because a select few control the market. Thats not at all the case here because the upper limit of performance is available to any one if they should seek it. No one is preventing anyone from being competitive. And when I say soft caps are analogous to communism, I mean in philosophy as I have already expressed. That people who excel should be arbitrarily punished to compensate for those who under perform.

    As far as I am concerned, the game is pretty balanced and competitive. If you feel that the game isn't competitive, its because you aren't competitive.

    You're talking about reading up on someone's cheese build posted on Tamriel Foundry or Youtube as if it's some epic accomplishment of skill. It's kind of funny actually.

    That's not excelling, that's taking advantage of imbalances.

    I'm as competitive as I want to be. I still have fun playing PvP, I just wish some of these ridiculous builds would end.

    And I'd say that you still missed my point about competitiveness and monopolies, but it's all good. I think I see why based on your previous comments.
  • Minalan
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    t3hdubzy wrote: »
    So take away cloak and u make nightblades no longer a nightblade, might as well call them an assasin... oh wait you dont want them to kill people quickly, quietly, or from stealth.

    Maybe call them peasants?

    Seriously if you got hit with a focused arrow full of poison in this realm or another, whilst unkowning it was even coming, you want to shrug it off?

    Lets just do everything we can to make sure no one can gank anyone. We should all meet out in the field and duel properly. Or better yet lets only zerg, but only if numbers are equal and everyone plays fair.

    Nevermind there are plenty of builds out there that this type of play doesnt work on. As a pro ganker i still have a tough time with many of players. Theres the players that dodge every single one of my attacks. The players that take no damage from my attacks. That shield that stuns me if i attack with my bow first. The player that can break my fear at 5 percent health and heal to full health.

    Even if I go glass cannon, theres a lot of players out thrre with builds that do just fine countering my ganks.

    Just because you cant counter this build or are unwilling to change your build to counter it doesnt mean its broken. Everyone has a weakness, what are you willing to give up to counter this?

    So. You want to hide in the open. By crouching down, you turn completely invisible and undetectable to the naked eye no matter where you are. With no cover. No shadows. In broad daylight.

    Lets keep the realism argument in perspective please, it's a fantasy game.

    I don't mind ganking, but one button ganking with no counterplay is a problem. That's all. It should require more effort than one button push and a fraction of a second to take someone out.

  • t3hdubzy
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    Minalan wrote: »
    t3hdubzy wrote: »
    So take away cloak and u make nightblades no longer a nightblade, might as well call them an assasin... oh wait you dont want them to kill people quickly, quietly, or from stealth.

    Maybe call them peasants?

    Seriously if you got hit with a focused arrow full of poison in this realm or another, whilst unkowning it was even coming, you want to shrug it off?

    Lets just do everything we can to make sure no one can gank anyone. We should all meet out in the field and duel properly. Or better yet lets only zerg, but only if numbers are equal and everyone plays fair.

    Nevermind there are plenty of builds out there that this type of play doesnt work on. As a pro ganker i still have a tough time with many of players. Theres the players that dodge every single one of my attacks. The players that take no damage from my attacks. That shield that stuns me if i attack with my bow first. The player that can break my fear at 5 percent health and heal to full health.

    Even if I go glass cannon, theres a lot of players out thrre with builds that do just fine countering my ganks.

    Just because you cant counter this build or are unwilling to change your build to counter it doesnt mean its broken. Everyone has a weakness, what are you willing to give up to counter this?

    So. You want to hide in the open. By crouching down, you turn completely invisible and undetectable to the naked eye no matter where you are. With no cover. No shadows. In broad daylight.

    Lets keep the realism argument in perspective please, it's a fantasy game.

    I don't mind ganking, but one button ganking with no counterplay is a problem. That's all. It should require more effort than one button push and a fraction of a second to take someone out.

    I just think you underestimate how hard it is to pull off and how many times it fails. And I didnt say realism, i said in any realm magic or not. Narnia, lord of the rings, star trek, elder scrolls. On the right opponent with the right skill, stealth attack should be able to one shot.


    Theres plenty of other skills that should be nerfed into the ground and rendered useless before this.
  • Aziah
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    @cjthibs

    I guess my point flew over your head completely. A monopoly prevents competition because a select few control the market. Thats not at all the case here because the upper limit of performance is available to any one if they should seek it. No one is preventing anyone from being competitive. And when I say soft caps are analogous to communism, I mean in philosophy as I have already expressed. That people who excel should be arbitrarily punished to compensate for those who under perform.

    As far as I am concerned, the game is pretty balanced and competitive. If you feel that the game isn't competitive, its because you aren't competitive.

    By this logic, why couldn't Zenimax buff Elemental Storm into an instant AOE that does 500k damage over a range the size of Cyrodiil? It would be accessible to everyone.

    I'm honestly neutral on this as I play in Azura's and haven't had any problems with the skill, but a bad argument is a bad argument. The upper limit of performance being accessible to everyone does not (EDIT: necessarily) make that limit any less broken.
    Edited by Aziah on February 23, 2017 12:57AM
  • Nellzer
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    Xeniph, you can have an opinion that one-shotting is reasonable as long as you forego defenses (even though in ESO you don't have to, AT ALL, to pull this off), just know that your opinion is wrong.

    Ganking, in ANY MMO historically, has never been about one-shotting someone. It's about utilizing the element of stealth/surprise to obtain an obscene advantage making it very hard for your opponent to survive. That said, the element of 'outplay' has always been there, where if said ganker is trying to gank a much better player, he'll probably have it blow up in his face.

    Having a dumb mechanic like this that allows a no-skill cheesepuff to instantly kill someone has NO place in any part of a game, competitive or non-competitive. You may think it's funny, entertaining, yadda yadda yadda - doesn't matter. I might think being able to loot all of your gear after I kill you is fun and entertaining, does that mean it belongs in the game?
  • technohic
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    Probably a little over the top. I only say "little" in comparison to the knee jerk reaction and woe is me response. Otherwise; it is in deed way over the top as far as power goes. People that do it though; I really don't feel contribute to much outside of their own LULZ.
  • thankyourat
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    If your want to have counter play to ganking you have to lower the overall damage in the game. it's way too high. I hit someone with a 17k crystal frag before. And I've hit people with 25k plus assassins will. Not to mention I can hit people with 10k plus heavy attacks. As long as damage is so high counterplay will be very low. Ganking is just a bi-product of all this damage. Why can I one shot a player from stealth with a heavy attack soul harvest on my magblade and I'm not even built as a ganker. Is it because stealth is broken? No, it's because damage is broken. Last patch on my stam dk I one shot a player in a duel using double proc sets and poisons. You are always one laggy cc break away from death while playing this game. I just think of it as this game isn't competitive cause it's not. I think people put to much emphasis on stealth and not enough on why damage is so high in the first place, my 17k crystal frag is just as toxic as my 14k incaps. And they just keep giving us more CP to use and more damage boost
  • Drdeath20
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    End of the day there really is no counterplay, just the illusion of counterplay.

    If your looking for a sword fighting game the requires skill and is all about counterplay go get for honor.

    Eso is just inventing new ways to dangle a "carrot" in front of our face.
  • Firerock2
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    The solution is simple; delete the Nightblade class and do not reimburse the people who play them.
  • t3hdubzy
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    Firerock2 wrote: »
    The solution is simple; delete the Nightblade class and do not reimburse the people who play them.

    This made me laugh, thank you
  • HoloYoitsu
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    Thanks one button warriors, I can already feel my IQ dropping from the 'just use counterplay hur hur' responses and even likening bringing damage into line to communism. So I'll just sum up this thread in one pic.

    The guy in the middle is the Onslaught NB
    a5rI7MR.jpg
    Cyrodiil (the PvP map) is open-world and supports up to 2000 players in it at the same time. ESO’s client is designed to be able to handle (on the recommended spec) 200 players on screen at the same time.
  • Minalan
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    Firerock2 wrote: »
    The solution is simple; delete the Nightblade class and do not reimburse the people who play them.

    No. It's not that efffing hard. Do not allow ultimates to be empowered, do not add stealth attack bonuses to ultimates. Ultimates do enough damage. That's apparently too hard for ZOS.
    HoloYoitsu wrote: »
    Thanks one button warriors, I can already feel my IQ dropping from the 'just use counterplay hur hur' responses and even likening bringing damage into line to communism. So I'll just sum up this thread in one pic.

    The guy in the middle is the Onslaught NB
    a5rI7MR.jpg

    This. Was hilarious. :lol:

    I think Cyrus is against lowering high damage builds down to the lowest common denominator (potato). Some people suggested that. Hard caps on damage.

    I don't think we need that, in this case we just need to balance stealth, empower, and ultimate mechanics.
  • Ishammael
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    Lol at one shot builds from invisibility.

    Dumbest gameplay mechanism in ESO currently.
  • thankyourat
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    Minalan wrote: »
    Firerock2 wrote: »
    The solution is simple; delete the Nightblade class and do not reimburse the people who play them.

    No. It's not that efffing hard. Do not allow ultimates to be empowered, do not add stealth attack bonuses to ultimates. Ultimates do enough damage. That's apparently too hard for ZOS.
    HoloYoitsu wrote: »
    Thanks one button warriors, I can already feel my IQ dropping from the 'just use counterplay hur hur' responses and even likening bringing damage into line to communism. So I'll just sum up this thread in one pic.

    The guy in the middle is the Onslaught NB
    a5rI7MR.jpg

    This. Was hilarious. :lol:

    I think Cyrus is against lowering high damage builds down to the lowest common denominator (potato). Some people suggested that. Hard caps on damage.

    I don't think we need that, in this case we just need to balance stealth, empower, and ultimate mechanics.

    The only thing is that even without the bonuses to stealth I would still be able to one shot players on both versions of my nightblade from stealth because if you get hit in this game without your buffs up you are a dead man. They have to lower all the damage. Maybe if they made it to where you can't empower weapon heavy attacks that would help out more or just lowered their damage all together. Example on your sorc your combo could one shot a player if he doesn't defend himself correct. It's basically the same with the nightblade except you are hitting players without any buffs up. Of course people are going to die. Unless the damage in this game is nerfed by alot ganking will always be a problem. And stupid powerful abilities like onslaught and destro ultimate just make it worse. Stealth in itself is very weak to the point where alot of good nightblade don't rely on it or slot it at all really prevalent with magblades. But the stupid admit of damage players can have it's what's broken.

    Maybe they can add in the CP tree reduce damage you take from stealth attacks. I would probably try something like that out
  • RinaldoGandolphi
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    Look I had a DK heavy attack build that could hit for 28k in pvp..I played it a few days then changed it because that's broken. One fully charged heavy attack into a weaver force pulse was like 33k worth of instant damage. That kinda stuff isn't healthy for the game either.

    Even Call of Duty has a higher Ttk right now. That's an issue.
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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

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  • technohic
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    If your want to have counter play to ganking you have to lower the overall damage in the game. it's way too high. I hit someone with a 17k crystal frag before. And I've hit people with 25k plus assassins will. Not to mention I can hit people with 10k plus heavy attacks. As long as damage is so high counterplay will be very low. Ganking is just a bi-product of all this damage. Why can I one shot a player from stealth with a heavy attack soul harvest on my magblade and I'm not even built as a ganker. Is it because stealth is broken? No, it's because damage is broken. Last patch on my stam dk I one shot a player in a duel using double proc sets and poisons. You are always one laggy cc break away from death while playing this game. I just think of it as this game isn't competitive cause it's not. I think people put to much emphasis on stealth and not enough on why damage is so high in the first place, my 17k crystal frag is just as toxic as my 14k incaps. And they just keep giving us more CP to use and more damage boost

    Its not just damage. Look at the super tanks as well. It all goes back to soft cap removal. Otherwise; I agree. There is just too much stacking
  • Derra
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    Xeniph wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    DHale wrote: »
    Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

    Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

    "Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

    Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

    You have been using this same nonsense for over 2 years.

    Simple fact: If you want to avoid instagibbing, use it. If folks choose not to, don't come crying here. If you want to counter something you need to sacrifice elsewhere.

    What nonsense? Where do i cry?

    I simply point out a fact. That the counterskill argument is not a valid argument because the counterskill does counter the gank - but makes your build otherwise useless.
    It´s the equivalent of hacking of your own foot to avoid getting drafted - not a smart move.

    Also it´s a shame that you´re mentioning daoc and eso in the same context of ganking. In daoc ganking hat actual counterplay and no oneshots.
    <Noricum>
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  • Derra
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    t3hdubzy wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    t3hdubzy wrote: »
    So take away cloak and u make nightblades no longer a nightblade, might as well call them an assasin... oh wait you dont want them to kill people quickly, quietly, or from stealth.

    Maybe call them peasants?

    Seriously if you got hit with a focused arrow full of poison in this realm or another, whilst unkowning it was even coming, you want to shrug it off?

    Lets just do everything we can to make sure no one can gank anyone. We should all meet out in the field and duel properly. Or better yet lets only zerg, but only if numbers are equal and everyone plays fair.

    Nevermind there are plenty of builds out there that this type of play doesnt work on. As a pro ganker i still have a tough time with many of players. Theres the players that dodge every single one of my attacks. The players that take no damage from my attacks. That shield that stuns me if i attack with my bow first. The player that can break my fear at 5 percent health and heal to full health.

    Even if I go glass cannon, theres a lot of players out thrre with builds that do just fine countering my ganks.

    Just because you cant counter this build or are unwilling to change your build to counter it doesnt mean its broken. Everyone has a weakness, what are you willing to give up to counter this?

    So. You want to hide in the open. By crouching down, you turn completely invisible and undetectable to the naked eye no matter where you are. With no cover. No shadows. In broad daylight.

    Lets keep the realism argument in perspective please, it's a fantasy game.

    I don't mind ganking, but one button ganking with no counterplay is a problem. That's all. It should require more effort than one button push and a fraction of a second to take someone out.

    I just think you underestimate how hard it is to pull off and how many times it fails. And I didnt say realism, i said in any realm magic or not. Narnia, lord of the rings, star trek, elder scrolls. On the right opponent with the right skill, stealth attack should be able to one shot.


    Theres plenty of other skills that should be nerfed into the ground and rendered useless before this.

    I don´t think oneshots should be possible in an mmo type of game under any circumstance. It´s a mechanic for shooters with instant back to the action respawn or singleplayer games.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Izaki
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    RML just allows them to kill you in 2 hits instead of one really....

    The counters to stealth in this game suck....RML stinks, Revealing Flare sucks,

    Give us a damaging or utility skill that mean to counter Cloak just like how Cloak gets good utility like Minor Protection or Guranteed crit WHEN and IF it works...the counters to stealth in this game gimp you, whereas the stealth skills in this game do not gimp you and make you better...its a serious imbalance.

    Fixed that for you :)
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Izaki
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    Neoauspex wrote: »
    Xeniph wrote: »
    I think it's perfectly reasonable for one player to build for one shots forgoing all defense/utility.

    Stealth is the best defense/utility in Cyrodiil.

    Not when you get pulled out of cloak by literally anything. Its far too unreliable to even slot, yet you have to slot it because its your only defense.
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Derra
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    RML just allows them to kill you in 2 hits instead of one really....

    The counters to stealth in this game suck....RML stinks, Revealing Flare sucks,

    Give us a damaging or utility skill that mean to counter Cloak just like how Cloak gets good utility like Minor Protection or Guranteed crit WHEN and IF it works...the counters to stealth in this game gimp you, whereas the stealth skills in this game do not gimp you and make you better...its a serious imbalance.

    Fixed that for you :)

    Come on - it´s not like cloak is the unreliable piece of garbage it was last patch unless you get attacked by 10+ ppl (and tbh in that case everything dies bc the game can´t handle it).

    Just yesterday we had a NB trolling our grp until i managed to slot lolassault because shade + cloak offers so little counterplay and the most vaible counterplay (detectpots and reveal poisons) are bugged and skills still forcemiss for the first second of cloak even though you see the nb.
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • arkansas_ESO
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    Derra wrote: »
    RML just allows them to kill you in 2 hits instead of one really....

    The counters to stealth in this game suck....RML stinks, Revealing Flare sucks,

    Give us a damaging or utility skill that mean to counter Cloak just like how Cloak gets good utility like Minor Protection or Guranteed crit WHEN and IF it works...the counters to stealth in this game gimp you, whereas the stealth skills in this game do not gimp you and make you better...its a serious imbalance.

    Fixed that for you :)

    Come on - it´s not like cloak is the unreliable piece of garbage it was last patch unless you get attacked by 10+ ppl (and tbh in that case everything dies bc the game can´t handle it).

    Just yesterday we had a NB trolling our grp until i managed to slot lolassault because shade + cloak offers so little counterplay and the most vaible counterplay (detectpots and reveal poisons) are bugged and skills still forcemiss for the first second of cloak even though you see the nb.

    It's still pretty bad. Gap closers still pull you out, Templar's Reflective Light pulls you out, and then there's the huge amount of AOE. All they fixed this patch was Infernal Guardian targeting you in stealth, as far as I can tell.


    Grand Overlord 25/8/17
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