So how long are we going to leave this ZERO counterplay in the game?

Waffennacht

Gargis wrote: »

I Think that the sets are by design.

Hear me out on this....

50 y/o old dog=Me. Can never compete against nubile, 18 y/o super fast twitch gaming monster who can pound out animation cancelling like a champ.

So....how do I ever win? Well maybe if we have OP sets I can.

You think that Cows ever eat cheese?

Your logic fails when the 18 yo uses the same OP set as you

out51d3r

Gargis wrote: »

50 y/o old dog=Me. Can never compete against nubile, 18 y/o super fast twitch gaming monster who can pound out animation cancelling like a champ.

So....how do I ever win? Well maybe if we have OP sets I can.

I'm 40, and I'm still at the 96th percentile for reaction time according to humanbenchmark.com . It's not an age thing, it's a practice/training/caffeine thing.

Cathexis

It's not even animation cancelling speed as an issue. You can macro slice people faster than a human being can cancel. Therein lies one of the issues as I see it in terms of balance. It really comes down to these things for me in terms of counterplay:

(1) combos being executed faster than humanly possible
(2) uncounterable healing
(3) combos being executed that have no counterplay
(4) being outnumbered with no counterplay

A lot of it is rooted in build, if you have the correct build you may have a chance, of you don't you won't.
But build isn't something you can account for in combat. You can't midcombat change your gear to combat an unfavourable play style. To that end, that was a byproduct of why caps were good, it regulated the player base so that sort of rock paper scissors didn't happen.

To make matters worse, damage is tied to healing, which distorts things heavily in favour of damage. I've fought full damage player ls who tank better than me when I'm in full tank. If you are going to allow polarized builds, that's messed up.

Nellzer

Gargis wrote: »

I don't know what you guys are all up in arms about.

This game will never be a balanced pvp game, ever. Its not possible. No GCD ensures that. Hence OP sets to "spread" the death around.

Animation cancelling is the albatross of this game. They destroyed pvp before it ever got going. You do realize that animations are a huge part of counter play in numerous other games, right?

Hang up your pvp gear and join the pve train. If one day they add global CDs , then you can ask for balance, until then its pointless.

The thing is, no one here is screaming that PvP balance needs to take priority. All in all, class balance in PvP is actually in a pretty decent place right now.

It's extremely easy, however, to prevent gimmicky one-shot builds that have no place in an MMO by introducing caps. The only players you really see here defending keeping these types of builds in the game are those that couldn't 1vX a pack of donkeys and need this type of mechanic to have fun in PvP, because it's their only option outside of zerging.

Xeniph

NBrookus wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I honestly think ESO needs more of this. It'll give solo players and outcasts a ways of having fun in PvP.

There were two of them and one of me. Who was the lone wolf?

The problem with insta-kill mechanics is not that someone dies (because that happens a LOT in Cyrodiil), it's that only one party is having fun and only one party is even getting to play the game at that point. There's a reason why there was a successful Deerhunter video game, but not one where you play a deer.

I can think of one other time that I've been successfully solo ganked in the past year (sribes). This romanticized story of the solo ganker just doesn't hold water, they run in packs so if the gank fails they face no consequences.

This here simply isn't true, I have never grouped on my ganker and have always killed 98% of my targets. Believe me the solo gank romance is real

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I honestly think ESO needs more of this. It'll give solo players and outcasts a ways of having fun in PvP.

There were two of them and one of me. Who was the lone wolf?

The problem with insta-kill mechanics is not that someone dies (because that happens a LOT in Cyrodiil), it's that only one party is having fun and only one party is even getting to play the game at that point. There's a reason why there was a successful Deerhunter video game, but not one where you play a deer.

I can think of one other time that I've been successfully solo ganked in the past year (sribes). This romanticized story of the solo ganker just doesn't hold water, they run in packs so if the gank fails they face no consequences.

This is not to mention most of these ganks will take place when you are already fighting 2-3 other people to begin with.

The zergs also uses these same gank one shot mechanics to kill outnumbered players, it happens everyday.

One shot mechanics do not belong in this game.

Even in Call of Duty you cna be shot 3-4 times beofre you die, I mean this is an MMO not a twitch shooter...one shot mechanics have no place here.

This is your opinion. I have seen a few others in this thread agree with you as well. However I wholeheartedly disagree and I have seen a few in this thread that agree with me.

So the issue is. Who is right? In reality, this game is enjoyed in so many different ways and what some think shouldn't belong, others might find essential.

The fact is, nobody plays or expects the same stuff out of a game. I rather like builds that bring me to less than 2% of my health from a gank. It literally is the only thing that gets my adrenaline up in pvp, forces me to be on my toes ALL the time or suffer if not. I think builds like this are absolutely essential to open world pvp games.

I can appreciate that others may not feel like I do, or like these mechanics. I for one despise people who need to group to do stuff, or 4+ players zerging down one. However they are part of the game and I have to accept it as long as I play.

I guess my point is, for every person who dislikes something. There is always another who enjoys it.

Xeniph

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

"Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

You have been using this same nonsense for over 2 years.

Simple fact: If you want to avoid instagibbing, use it. If folks choose not to, don't come crying here. If you want to counter something you need to sacrifice elsewhere.

What nonsense? Where do i cry?

I simply point out a fact. That the counterskill argument is not a valid argument because the counterskill does counter the gank - but makes your build otherwise useless.
It´s the equivalent of hacking of your own foot to avoid getting drafted - not a smart move.

Also it´s a shame that you´re mentioning daoc and eso in the same context of ganking. In daoc ganking hat actual counterplay and no oneshots.

I bolded the nonsense part-
You lose 5%magicka and 10% crit vs 12m of 50% sneak damage reduction and immunity to stealth crits (for ALL within the radius)
It's a choice, neither will make or break a build or render one ineffective. To say that it does is a gross overstatement.

As to the crying- That was a generalized statement, not targeted at you. Rather at anyone who complains but refuses to use the counters.

Like you, massive amounts of players undervalue Radiant Magelight and my ganker hopes they continue to do so.

*Edit- Forgot to address the DAoC statement. DAoC utilized perma cc chains for stealth combat (melee) which resulted in 2-3 shots with the same results, inability to control your toon before you died. Unless you meant scouts, in which case it was 2 shots

Reefo

Ganking (assassination) has its place in cyrodiil though, siege fights are pretty messy with a gank bow build you can take out targets that are causing issues for your siege and defending.

I put on archers mind and spriggan last night and went to thornblade with my bow, I don't feel guilty with getting 20k+ snipes, getting the insta kills and giving my alliance 1 less player at a time to deal with.

You get the insane tanky players taking a beating then turning around and smacking everyone in a 1v5, yes that takes skill and is broken also, but take that mofo out and you have saved 5 lives.

thankyourat

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

"Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

You have been using this same nonsense for over 2 years.

Simple fact: If you want to avoid instagibbing, use it. If folks choose not to, don't come crying here. If you want to counter something you need to sacrifice elsewhere.

What nonsense? Where do i cry?

I simply point out a fact. That the counterskill argument is not a valid argument because the counterskill does counter the gank - but makes your build otherwise useless.
It´s the equivalent of hacking of your own foot to avoid getting drafted - not a smart move.

Also it´s a shame that you´re mentioning daoc and eso in the same context of ganking. In daoc ganking hat actual counterplay and no oneshots.

I bolded the nonsense part-
You lose 5%magicka and 10% crit vs 12m of 50% sneak damage reduction and immunity to stealth crits (for ALL within the radius)
It's a choice, neither will make or break a build or render one ineffective. To say that it does is a gross overstatement.

As to the crying- That was a generalized statement, not targeted at you. Rather at anyone who complains but refuses to use the counters.

Like you, massive amounts of players undervalue Radiant Magelight and my ganker hopes they continue to do so.

*Edit- Forgot to address the DAoC statement. DAoC utilized perma cc chains for stealth combat (melee) which resulted in 2-3 shots with the same results, inability to control your toon before you died. Unless you meant scouts, in which case it was 2 shots

You don't lose 5℅ magicka you just don't gain it and it still keeps the crit bonus. In my mind it's superior to inner light for PvP. 5℅ extra magicka doesn't mean much if your health goes to zero lol. I feel as though there should be an anti gank tool for stamina that medium armor builds can use so they don't get ganked as well.

Derra

Knootewoot wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I also want fair fight. I want my vampire magblade to have fun and fight toe to toe with a fully buffed DK. But I can't. I can't do damage and he just lava whips me to death in a few secs.

You want WHAT?

It's farfetched, but I want class balance. But it will never happen. So instead of being able to "fight fair" I have to gank. I have to kill people who are off-guard, unbuffed and probably AFK.

(no offence to the people I murdered yesterday, but you guys really sucked. I'm a melee magblade for fox ake. The laughingstock of ESO)

Well a melee magblade is about the only spec not competetive at the moment.

But tbh - i think they could still go toe to toe with a DK if they´re not vamp (dk is still really bad aswell). You give the DK a 25% dmg increase on you.

But i somewhat agree. There either should not be a class dealing 100% fire dmg or vampirism drawback should not bei firedmg (2% more dmg taken per stage > 1 during daytime?). It´s bad gamedesign. Especially with mist form being a mandatory skill with this many snares and roots in the game.

Ranged magblade destroys dk´s though

Brutusmax1mus

You have a bad build or were caught with your shields down if you did from this. If the onslaught fails they are free ap.

KoreanAwtamatic

I'd rather have destro ult reworked then this skill just saying

Derra

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

"Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

You have been using this same nonsense for over 2 years.

Simple fact: If you want to avoid instagibbing, use it. If folks choose not to, don't come crying here. If you want to counter something you need to sacrifice elsewhere.

What nonsense? Where do i cry?

I simply point out a fact. That the counterskill argument is not a valid argument because the counterskill does counter the gank - but makes your build otherwise useless.
It´s the equivalent of hacking of your own foot to avoid getting drafted - not a smart move.

Also it´s a shame that you´re mentioning daoc and eso in the same context of ganking. In daoc ganking hat actual counterplay and no oneshots.

I bolded the nonsense part-
You lose 5%magicka and 10% crit vs 12m of 50% sneak damage reduction and immunity to stealth crits (for ALL within the radius)
It's a choice, neither will make or break a build or render one ineffective. To say that it does is a gross overstatement.

As to the crying- That was a generalized statement, not targeted at you. Rather at anyone who complains but refuses to use the counters.

Like you, massive amounts of players undervalue Radiant Magelight and my ganker hopes they continue to do so.

*Edit- Forgot to address the DAoC statement. DAoC utilized perma cc chains for stealth combat (melee) which resulted in 2-3 shots with the same results, inability to control your toon before you died. Unless you meant scouts, in which case it was 2 shots

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?
I guess we have a different view on how important two other active skills that are usefull in every sitiuation are in a game only allowing you to access ten of those.
I have to ask if you´re serious at this point - because i can´t imagine you are (see it´s not competing with inner light - i need inner light for pve AND i use two other active skills for pvp - that is what radiant competes against).

It´s not the point that i undervalue radiant magelight. It´s that it´s a skill i don´t need EVER apart from the circumstance of getting ganked.
That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

In eso where basically every skill is universially usefull or multi purpose the mechanics to counter stealth and ganking are unique in a way that these skills are single purpose and useless at doing anything but that. I think that´s a flaw in the core design of those abilities.

In daoc you could avoid getting ganked simply by moving correctly (as it required positional styles).
In daoc you had an active counter with purge.
In daoc you could not get ganked in groups because heals effectively hardcountered it flatout.
None of this is true with the possibility to instantly die in eso. It offers no counterplay (execept for using an otherwise useless skill which reduces your overall effectiveness by 20%).

Biro123

I got 1-shotted twice last night. And I do mean 1-shot - not a heavy attack combined with ability - just one hit - 24k dmg. Never happened before, but the same person did it twice. I'm fine with that. I'm a sorc with light armour and no impen. If I get caught with shields down, I should be gankable. My usual defence - defensive rune did not help.

It was from range. Couldn't even tell where it came from. I'm not sure I'm ok with that - no risk, instant kill.. hmm..

The 2nd time he 1-shotted me AND another guy (he hit the guy at the back first and after hearing the shot, by the time I turned around, saw him dead and got off my horse - I was dead too. Still couldn't see where the shot came from. Still no risk for him.

Now at the moment, I'm sort of ok with it because its very very rare - and the guy that did it has obviously come up with a unique build to do that - and only that. The point where I won't be ok with it is if he posts up that build and suddenly cyrodiil is awash with gankers with the ability to 1-shot like this. That would be bad. Very bad. I'd be switching builds just for travelling to full impen/heavy armour, 30k health setups.. I hate to have to switch builds to meet the circumstances.

Reefo

Biro123 wrote: »

I got 1-shotted twice last night. And I do mean 1-shot - not a heavy attack combined with ability - just one hit - 24k dmg. Never happened before, but the same person did it twice. I'm fine with that. I'm a sorc with light armour and no impen. If I get caught with shields down, I should be gankable. My usual defence - defensive rune did not help.

It was from range. Couldn't even tell where it came from. I'm not sure I'm ok with that - no risk, instant kill.. hmm..

The 2nd time he 1-shotted me AND another guy (he hit the guy at the back first and after hearing the shot, by the time I turned around, saw him dead and got off my horse - I was dead too. Still couldn't see where the shot came from. Still no risk for him.

Now at the moment, I'm sort of ok with it because its very very rare - and the guy that did it has obviously come up with a unique build to do that - and only that. The point where I won't be ok with it is if he posts up that build and suddenly cyrodiil is awash with gankers with the ability to 1-shot like this. That would be bad. Very bad. I'd be switching builds just for travelling to full impen/heavy armour, 30k health setups.. I hate to have to switch builds to meet the circumstances.

What platform and campaign do u play on?

Durham

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4dyYJo9FXg

This is NOT a dig on Sypher, i think Sypher puts out entertaining content. He is just showcasing how broken this is.

I thought Incapacitating Strike was bad, but it has NOTHING on this.

I was testing this the other day, trying to come up with a counter but there really isn't one.

Even with Radiant Magelight slotted good luck surviving it.

It ignores ALL your Armor no matter what type your using.
It can be empowered with Magelight from Stealth
It gets the Stealth Damage multiplier
If you kill someone it refunds the full ultimate cost(meaning its right back up)

So you can roam around Cyrodiil right now:
1. in Cloak,
2. Toggle Magelight, (For Empower)
3. push one button.(Ultimate Button for Onslaught)
4. Insta-kill

I had a few Nightblades do this to me, i just laugh about it. there is literally nothing you can do. Your hit once for 30-35k no need for even a light attack. (on a light armored mag sorc with 2.2k crit resist) and thats that.

This really ought to be changed with an incremental patch. one hit KO's are lame, and they discourage people from playing.

I am Ok with getting hit for 10-12k but 30k? watch the video...Sypher gets off quite a few 35k hits....thats broken...i don't even know what else to say about that.

until then i'll just laugh about it, not much else you can do.

EOS is way worse atm... whoever has the most EOS wins entire battle ... but yeah they are slow to move on stupid tactics ...

Biro123

Reefo wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I got 1-shotted twice last night. And I do mean 1-shot - not a heavy attack combined with ability - just one hit - 24k dmg. Never happened before, but the same person did it twice. I'm fine with that. I'm a sorc with light armour and no impen. If I get caught with shields down, I should be gankable. My usual defence - defensive rune did not help.

It was from range. Couldn't even tell where it came from. I'm not sure I'm ok with that - no risk, instant kill.. hmm..

The 2nd time he 1-shotted me AND another guy (he hit the guy at the back first and after hearing the shot, by the time I turned around, saw him dead and got off my horse - I was dead too. Still couldn't see where the shot came from. Still no risk for him.

Now at the moment, I'm sort of ok with it because its very very rare - and the guy that did it has obviously come up with a unique build to do that - and only that. The point where I won't be ok with it is if he posts up that build and suddenly cyrodiil is awash with gankers with the ability to 1-shot like this. That would be bad. Very bad. I'd be switching builds just for travelling to full impen/heavy armour, 30k health setups.. I hate to have to switch builds to meet the circumstances.

What platform and campaign do u play on?

There it is..
PC EU Megaserver
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC - Trueflame
Aidee - Magsorc - DC - Trueflame

Reefo

Biro123 wrote: »

Reefo wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I got 1-shotted twice last night. And I do mean 1-shot - not a heavy attack combined with ability - just one hit - 24k dmg. Never happened before, but the same person did it twice. I'm fine with that. I'm a sorc with light armour and no impen. If I get caught with shields down, I should be gankable. My usual defence - defensive rune did not help.

It was from range. Couldn't even tell where it came from. I'm not sure I'm ok with that - no risk, instant kill.. hmm..

The 2nd time he 1-shotted me AND another guy (he hit the guy at the back first and after hearing the shot, by the time I turned around, saw him dead and got off my horse - I was dead too. Still couldn't see where the shot came from. Still no risk for him.

Now at the moment, I'm sort of ok with it because its very very rare - and the guy that did it has obviously come up with a unique build to do that - and only that. The point where I won't be ok with it is if he posts up that build and suddenly cyrodiil is awash with gankers with the ability to 1-shot like this. That would be bad. Very bad. I'd be switching builds just for travelling to full impen/heavy armour, 30k health setups.. I hate to have to switch builds to meet the circumstances.

What platform and campaign do u play on?

There it is..
PC EU Megaserver
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC - Trueflame
Aidee - Magsorc - DC - Trueflame

Lol okay cool, wasn't me, I'm on PS4 EU thornblade.

TIP: slot radiant magelight in your overload bar with defensive rune and travel like that. Goodluck!

Jim_Pipp

Derra wrote: »

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?...That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

This has been a really interesting discussion, and I can see there are valid points on both sides so I'm not meaning to argue with anyone, but I wanted to mention one thing.

Having to slot an almost useless skill to prevent a gank is 10-20% of your possible skills gone. Building a ganker means 80-100% of your skills are going to be almost useless for everything but ganking. While I'm not sure which side of this argument I agree with, it does feel like gankers are sacrificing a lot more to be good at just one thing, and everyone seems to agree that gankers are no threat if you take away their ability to gank.

Ashamray

My recipe when I've met onslaught ganker:
1) die
2) /shrug
3) res
4) choose another way
if impossible, then sneak.
4.1) sneaksneaksneak kekeke

Valencer

Negate, Eye of the Storm, proc sets, Onslaught ganking. If you want counterplay, I think you're playing the wrong game at this point.

Derra

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?...That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

This has been a really interesting discussion, and I can see there are valid points on both sides so I'm not meaning to argue with anyone, but I wanted to mention one thing.

Having to slot an almost useless skill to prevent a gank is 10-20% of your possible skills gone. Building a ganker means 80-100% of your skills are going to be almost useless for everything but ganking. While I'm not sure which side of this argument I agree with, it does feel like gankers are sacrificing a lot more to be good at just one thing, and everyone seems to agree that gankers are no threat if you take away their ability to gank.

I´m not invisible.
The ganker is.

Which results in your point being moot. They never engage into a fight they don´t want to (where their build would unarguably at a disatvantage). But they have a build where 100% of their skills are always useful because they only engage in fights on their terms.
There is no sacrifice being made. It´s a strawman argument. There can only be a sacrifice if there was the possibility of being engaged not on your terms - which can basically never happen with permanent invisibility.

Edit: I would not ever argue against any form of ganking in eso if sneaktime/invisibilitytime was limited to a reasonable timeframe.

I fight all people attacking me.
I have a build that can either instantly die - or has to sacrifice 20% of my abilities to not instantly die.

thankyourat

Derra wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?...That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

This has been a really interesting discussion, and I can see there are valid points on both sides so I'm not meaning to argue with anyone, but I wanted to mention one thing.

Having to slot an almost useless skill to prevent a gank is 10-20% of your possible skills gone. Building a ganker means 80-100% of your skills are going to be almost useless for everything but ganking. While I'm not sure which side of this argument I agree with, it does feel like gankers are sacrificing a lot more to be good at just one thing, and everyone seems to agree that gankers are no threat if you take away their ability to gank.

I´m not invisible.
The ganker is.

Which results in your point being moot. They never engage into a fight they don´t want to (where their build would unarguably at a disatvantage). But they have a build where 100% of their skills are always useful because they only engage in fights on their terms.
There is no sacrifice being made. It´s a strawman argument. There can only be a sacrifice if there was the possibility of being engaged not on your terms - which can basically never happen with permanent invisibility.

I fight all people attacking me.
I have a build that can either instantly die - or has to sacrifice 20% of my abilities to not instantly die.

I think it kind of depends if the gank fails then they are basically out of luck because all their skills are now useless. Also on Xbox (I don't know how it is on other platforms) heavy attacks from stealth as well as casting magelight have very noticeable audio ques so 9 times out of 10 if it's just me and a solo ganker and he tries to gank me it will fail because I'll block the heavy attack and pop a detect, immovable pot, and at this point he is pretty much dead because he has no crit resist and no spammable dps. The only problem is what you brought up, they often fight you when you are already engaged in combat with multiple other people. I don't even consider them gankers though just annoying Xv1 nightblades.

Derra

thankyourat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?...That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

This has been a really interesting discussion, and I can see there are valid points on both sides so I'm not meaning to argue with anyone, but I wanted to mention one thing.

Having to slot an almost useless skill to prevent a gank is 10-20% of your possible skills gone. Building a ganker means 80-100% of your skills are going to be almost useless for everything but ganking. While I'm not sure which side of this argument I agree with, it does feel like gankers are sacrificing a lot more to be good at just one thing, and everyone seems to agree that gankers are no threat if you take away their ability to gank.

I´m not invisible.
The ganker is.

Which results in your point being moot. They never engage into a fight they don´t want to (where their build would unarguably at a disatvantage). But they have a build where 100% of their skills are always useful because they only engage in fights on their terms.
There is no sacrifice being made. It´s a strawman argument. There can only be a sacrifice if there was the possibility of being engaged not on your terms - which can basically never happen with permanent invisibility.

I fight all people attacking me.
I have a build that can either instantly die - or has to sacrifice 20% of my abilities to not instantly die.

I think it kind of depends if the gank fails then they are basically out of luck because all their skills are now useless. Also on Xbox (I don't know how it is on other platforms) heavy attacks from stealth as well as casting magelight have very noticeable audio ques so 9 times out of 10 if it's just me and a solo ganker and he tries to gank me it will fail because I'll block the heavy attack and pop a detect, immovable pot, and at this point he is pretty much dead because he has no crit resist and no spammable dps. The only problem is what you brought up, they often fight you when you are already engaged in combat with multiple other people. I don't even consider them gankers though just annoying Xv1 nightblades.

I can´t argue on 1v1 encounters vs gankers because they almost never happen for me.

But the possibility of having invisible enemies (often multiple in grp) ganking you while already otherwise engaged in combat is something that greatly irritates me about eso - as i consider it one of the main factors contributing to zerging.

When there is no way to avoid dying to an invisible threat apart from bringing more people - the playerbase can hardly complain about the majority of people doing exactly that.
They bring more people - because the alternative is frustrating.

Biro123

Reefo wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Reefo wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I got 1-shotted twice last night. And I do mean 1-shot - not a heavy attack combined with ability - just one hit - 24k dmg. Never happened before, but the same person did it twice. I'm fine with that. I'm a sorc with light armour and no impen. If I get caught with shields down, I should be gankable. My usual defence - defensive rune did not help.

It was from range. Couldn't even tell where it came from. I'm not sure I'm ok with that - no risk, instant kill.. hmm..

The 2nd time he 1-shotted me AND another guy (he hit the guy at the back first and after hearing the shot, by the time I turned around, saw him dead and got off my horse - I was dead too. Still couldn't see where the shot came from. Still no risk for him.

Now at the moment, I'm sort of ok with it because its very very rare - and the guy that did it has obviously come up with a unique build to do that - and only that. The point where I won't be ok with it is if he posts up that build and suddenly cyrodiil is awash with gankers with the ability to 1-shot like this. That would be bad. Very bad. I'd be switching builds just for travelling to full impen/heavy armour, 30k health setups.. I hate to have to switch builds to meet the circumstances.

What platform and campaign do u play on?

There it is..
PC EU Megaserver
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC - Trueflame
Aidee - Magsorc - DC - Trueflame

Lol okay cool, wasn't me, I'm on PS4 EU thornblade.

TIP: slot radiant magelight in your overload bar with defensive rune and travel like that. Goodluck!

nah - I'm running a high magicka build - and the other morph - inner light is kind of integral to that on my front bar. I'm cool with dropping to it every now and then - but if it becomes too common, I do have a viable heavy armour build to fall back on - it just struggles vs tanks due to poor penetration. Tanks are currently a bigger pain to me than gankers are. If that changes.. well, then my build will change too.

runningtings

I used to be able to pick off people around the zerg and generate a few small scale fights with my solo NB.
Now though with EoTS being constantly spammed there is no realistic way to do this so I end up picking off stragglers which is way less fun or just being part of the counter attack pew-pewing from the sidelines or from the keep.

To me it needs looking at, there is little to no skill involved in running about like this spamming EoTS.
It ruins battles and must surely have drastically reduced the number of small scale fights.

Xeniph

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Counter play.... radiant mageblight... any other questions? Being in stealth is helpful to. Holding block when standing there even. This build is not new been out for months before Sypher... or Blob put it out. Getting ganked has been in the game for a long time. I used to literally one shot people with snipe. Then later after nerf... two shots. People that run radiant can't get ganked in the traditional sense.

Slotting an otherwise useless skill (while also having to remorph when switching to pve every time) on both bars can hardly be considered counterplay.

"Hey to not run the possibility to instantly die to an enemy you will never see coming you have to give up 20% of your active skills. Because *** you that´s why."

Anyone who can explain to me why and what about that is good balance i´ll gift a million gold on the eu server.

You have been using this same nonsense for over 2 years.

Simple fact: If you want to avoid instagibbing, use it. If folks choose not to, don't come crying here. If you want to counter something you need to sacrifice elsewhere.

What nonsense? Where do i cry?

I simply point out a fact. That the counterskill argument is not a valid argument because the counterskill does counter the gank - but makes your build otherwise useless.
It´s the equivalent of hacking of your own foot to avoid getting drafted - not a smart move.

Also it´s a shame that you´re mentioning daoc and eso in the same context of ganking. In daoc ganking hat actual counterplay and no oneshots.

I bolded the nonsense part-
You lose 5%magicka and 10% crit vs 12m of 50% sneak damage reduction and immunity to stealth crits (for ALL within the radius)
It's a choice, neither will make or break a build or render one ineffective. To say that it does is a gross overstatement.

As to the crying- That was a generalized statement, not targeted at you. Rather at anyone who complains but refuses to use the counters.

Like you, massive amounts of players undervalue Radiant Magelight and my ganker hopes they continue to do so.

*Edit- Forgot to address the DAoC statement. DAoC utilized perma cc chains for stealth combat (melee) which resulted in 2-3 shots with the same results, inability to control your toon before you died. Unless you meant scouts, in which case it was 2 shots

Ok so removing 20% of your active skills to slot a skill twice that only passively counters instant deaths from invisibility and offers no additional functionality not accessible otherwise is not severely reducing your builds efficiency?
I guess we have a different view on how important two other active skills that are usefull in every sitiuation are in a game only allowing you to access ten of those.
I have to ask if you´re serious at this point - because i can´t imagine you are (see it´s not competing with inner light - i need inner light for pve AND i use two other active skills for pvp - that is what radiant competes against).

It´s not the point that i undervalue radiant magelight. It´s that it´s a skill i don´t need EVER apart from the circumstance of getting ganked.
That´s the core problem of all anti gank and stealth mechanics. They add nothing to a build apart from countering stealth and ganks.

In eso where basically every skill is universially usefull or multi purpose the mechanics to counter stealth and ganking are unique in a way that these skills are single purpose and useless at doing anything but that. I think that´s a flaw in the core design of those abilities.

In daoc you could avoid getting ganked simply by moving correctly (as it required positional styles).
In daoc you had an active counter with purge.
In daoc you could not get ganked in groups because heals effectively hardcountered it flatout.
None of this is true with the possibility to instantly die in eso. It offers no counterplay (execept for using an otherwise useless skill which reduces your overall effectiveness by 20%).

No wonder why you think it gimps a spec. You seem to think it's required on both bars!
It's no longer a toggle and most people have a combat bar and a healing/buff bar. You only need it slotted on the bar you mostly use.

And I was wrong about the crit. So these days the only thing you lose by using radiant is the +5% magicka. Which is not desperately needed in pvp, but is in pve, however you can always respect for a whopping 900 gold (275 skill points) which is nothing.

You must have played DAoC a lot later than I did, I only played release to Atlantis and there was no counter to it whatsoever. As for positional, it wasn't hard to get in front of an ememy and perf artery, cc chain and dead lol. Or unless you were a scout then it was 2-3 shots while they were still looking for you lol.

NBrookus

Xeniph wrote: »

No wonder why you think it gimps a spec. You seem to think it's required on both bars!
It's no longer a toggle and most people have a combat bar and a healing/buff bar. You only need it slotted on the bar you mostly use.

For it to be useful, you actually do need to have it on both bars. Because if you are being watched by an invisible ganker, they can see if you have RML on, and if you bar swap for a second -- to cast buffs or whatever -- they know exactly when it's safe to strike.

Which opens up another issue: why can we see enemy players' buffs in the first place? That information shouldn't be accessible in the API.

Xeniph

NBrookus wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

No wonder why you think it gimps a spec. You seem to think it's required on both bars!
It's no longer a toggle and most people have a combat bar and a healing/buff bar. You only need it slotted on the bar you mostly use.

For it to be useful, you actually do need to have it on both bars. Because if you are being watched by an invisible ganker, they can see if you have RML on, and if you bar swap for a second -- to cast buffs or whatever -- they know exactly when it's safe to strike.

Which opens up another issue: why can we see enemy players' buffs in the first place? That information shouldn't be accessible in the API.

Radiant and Inner have the same buff icon. So there is no way to tell which morph they have, unless the person casts it.
#Edit- This was one of my biggest gripes on the test server when they redesigned them.

However you are right, if you watch other players around and see the maglight buff drop and reappear due to the 12m radius, there is someone using it. But I'll be honest, most of us aren't scanning looking for the right buffs before we gank. We want to quicly kill and move on.
There is one exception to that though. People we hate. We will follow, observe buffs and gameplay. Just to make sure we get it right :P

All this means is that the ability, in no way, needs to be on both bars. And exception could be make for specs that use one bar for say melee combat and the other for ranged, while spreading buffs on both bars. But those folks are not all that common.

t3hdubzy

A few things

1. Cant agree with the both bar thing. Having it on both is silly. Its like saying u have to sword n board both bars. Or have ranged on both bars. Also those who dont like that you cant spec differently for pve and pvp, dont know what to tell ya but thats all skills. Theres several that is love to change on the fly, its not just rml

2. Ganking is not as easy as it looks in montage videos.there are plenty of builds that i try to gank that whip my tail. Honestly though RML doesnt stop me either. Im built for open world fights as well, and not just one shotting folks. I dont back down against 2 or 3 people either, its just more challenging

3. Theres more than several ways to prevent ganks, rml is one. If you dont like it then build for something else, just dont expect that there will be no sacrifice at all. My build lacks a shield, healing, and sometimes no crowd control depending on how i feel. You can use rml, heavy armor, high health, more inpen, whatever that shield is that stuns the attacker, run in a group, use stealth, use the armor that makes your mount speed faster, use any armor set that does crowd control at certain health, use a nightblade, or just sneak yourself. Onslaught is a specialty build and it doesnt do great for much else then the one shot, which doesnt even work 100 percent of the time. Be thankful these guys are just cheeseballing like those unkillable tank and dont even do very much for the war.


4. Ganking can be productive as heck. I typically gank with a focus on helping the alliance. There are several ways to do this. My favorite is to pickout a scroll runner in a mob and destroy him so that my alliance can catch up and take it back.


All in all i hate dying to the onslaught build especially when i lag so hard that i dont even see my own death, but it is rare and its not very hard to counter. I view these builds like a game of chess, except i get to respawn, come back and avenge my own death.

Ishammael

Just gonna post an agree with @Derra. He has covered all of the main points.

Invisibility should be the advantage in an of itself. If anything, you should get a damage decrease when attacking from stealth.