So how long are we going to leave this ZERO counterplay in the game?

joe.smith21b14_ESO

LeifErickson wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi

You are very wrong about RML. RML is a fantastic skill. It grants you an easy empower, major crit just for having it slotted, mag recovery and max magicka from mages guild passives, the ability to pull people out of stealth or cloak, basically become invincible to gankers (and I'm pretty sure group members around you also get this bonus), did I miss anything? How can you say a skill that does all of that is bad?

Cloak and stealth is probably the mechanic in this game that has more counters than anything else. How can you as a mag sorc, a class that not only is the best counter to stamblades, but also the only class in the game that can go full damage light armor zero crit resist and be completely immune to ganking, call this build out? I was once attacked by two onslaught gankers at the same time with a third hitting me a second after and I shrugged it off like it was nothing because of shields. I was NOT using RML either.

He's right you know

technohic

I pretty much treat RML as a swap in and out skill. If there are a lot of gankers around, I will put it on for sure. TBH; I have it slotted more times than not because I like the empower without attacking. Stealth is for more than just ganking so I will use it when in a small group and a zerg is coming that we want to take on.

Outside of stealth; I can use entropy with a magicka build but on a stam build I prefer ML for the extra utility everyone says it doesn't have. I really enjoy a gank attempt when I have it slotted for it to not hurt much and I turn around and start spamming bombard on the ganker.

RinaldoGandolphi

LeifErickson wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi

You are very wrong about RML. RML is a fantastic skill. It grants you an easy empower, major crit just for having it slotted, mag recovery and max magicka from mages guild passives, the ability to pull people out of stealth or cloak, basically become invincible to gankers (and I'm pretty sure group members around you also get this bonus), did I miss anything? How can you say a skill that does all of that is bad?

Cloak and stealth is probably the mechanic in this game that has more counters than anything else. How can you as a mag sorc, a class that not only is the best counter to stamblades, but also the only class in the game that can go full damage light armor zero crit resist and be completely immune to ganking, call this build out? I was once attacked by two onslaught gankers at the same time with a third hitting me a second after and I shrugged it off like it was nothing because of shields. I was NOT using RML either.

It's not always about Sorcs. Other classes are much more susceptible to this then Sorcs are and I try to advocate for their position to. A Stam build is KO with this instantly with no defense in many cases.

All those things you listed are ok, but they are often less valuable then another skill. If RML gave better passives or something it will be good. I'll often slot it because I have no other choice.

I still think the core issue is stealth damage just being way off the charts and needs to be toned down a bit. I'm ok with stealth getting the initial advantage, but instakilling peoplebe sure they don't slot a specific skill is broken

Cathexis

Aziah wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

@cjthibs

I guess my point flew over your head completely. A monopoly prevents competition because a select few control the market. Thats not at all the case here because the upper limit of performance is available to any one if they should seek it. No one is preventing anyone from being competitive. And when I say soft caps are analogous to communism, I mean in philosophy as I have already expressed. That people who excel should be arbitrarily punished to compensate for those who under perform.

As far as I am concerned, the game is pretty balanced and competitive. If you feel that the game isn't competitive, its because you aren't competitive.

By this logic, why couldn't Zenimax buff Elemental Storm into an instant AOE that does 500k damage over a range the size of Cyrodiil? It would be accessible to everyone.

I'm honestly neutral on this as I play in Azura's and haven't had any problems with the skill, but a bad argument is a bad argument. The upper limit of performance being accessible to everyone does not (EDIT: necessarily) make that limit any less broken.

Agree.

thankyourat

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi

You are very wrong about RML. RML is a fantastic skill. It grants you an easy empower, major crit just for having it slotted, mag recovery and max magicka from mages guild passives, the ability to pull people out of stealth or cloak, basically become invincible to gankers (and I'm pretty sure group members around you also get this bonus), did I miss anything? How can you say a skill that does all of that is bad?

Cloak and stealth is probably the mechanic in this game that has more counters than anything else. How can you as a mag sorc, a class that not only is the best counter to stamblades, but also the only class in the game that can go full damage light armor zero crit resist and be completely immune to ganking, call this build out? I was once attacked by two onslaught gankers at the same time with a third hitting me a second after and I shrugged it off like it was nothing because of shields. I was NOT using RML either.

It's not always about Sorcs. Other classes are much more susceptible to this then Sorcs are and I try to advocate for their position to. A Stam build is KO with this instantly with no defense in many cases.

All those things you listed are ok, but they are often less valuable then another skill. If RML gave better passives or something it will be good. I'll often slot it because I have no other choice.

I still think the core issue is stealth damage just being way off the charts and needs to be toned down a bit. I'm ok with stealth getting the initial advantage, but instakilling peoplebe sure they don't slot a specific skill is broken

The only way I can see stealth damage not one shotting people is if you cut stealth damage in half, making it lower than regular damage. But how is that fair to my nightblade that my damage from stealth would be lower than my damage out of stealth. At that point why even use stealth

joe.smith21b14_ESO

thankyourat wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

@RinaldoGandolphi

You are very wrong about RML. RML is a fantastic skill. It grants you an easy empower, major crit just for having it slotted, mag recovery and max magicka from mages guild passives, the ability to pull people out of stealth or cloak, basically become invincible to gankers (and I'm pretty sure group members around you also get this bonus), did I miss anything? How can you say a skill that does all of that is bad?

Cloak and stealth is probably the mechanic in this game that has more counters than anything else. How can you as a mag sorc, a class that not only is the best counter to stamblades, but also the only class in the game that can go full damage light armor zero crit resist and be completely immune to ganking, call this build out? I was once attacked by two onslaught gankers at the same time with a third hitting me a second after and I shrugged it off like it was nothing because of shields. I was NOT using RML either.

It's not always about Sorcs. Other classes are much more susceptible to this then Sorcs are and I try to advocate for their position to. A Stam build is KO with this instantly with no defense in many cases.

All those things you listed are ok, but they are often less valuable then another skill. If RML gave better passives or something it will be good. I'll often slot it because I have no other choice.

I still think the core issue is stealth damage just being way off the charts and needs to be toned down a bit. I'm ok with stealth getting the initial advantage, but instakilling peoplebe sure they don't slot a specific skill is broken

The only way I can see stealth damage not one shotting people is if you cut stealth damage in half, making it lower than regular damage. But how is that fair to my nightblade that my damage from stealth would be lower than my damage out of stealth. At that point why even use stealth

Or use the proper tools and use you cp correctly

Brutusmax1mus

Cp and impen hard counters this build. So do shields.

glavius

While very powerful when all goes right, the build seems very limited to me:

Have to be in melee range and behind enemy.
Any pulsing aoe (quick cloak/boundless/hurricane) risk taking you out of cloak before you can get in melee range.
A target turning at last moment will make it fail.
If the attack fails, you have to find some mob to recharge ultimate.

I have been killed by this ONCE, and that was while fighting others at half health. Got hit for 17k on azuras star, but it was the following light attack that killed me, meaning he didn't get his ultimate refunded.

Now this may be because I move alot and generally try to sneak instead of standing still while visible.

Killing someone half afk in the outskirts of a zerg doesn't really require onslaught. I can easily do that with my 2.4k weap dmg build.....

All I know is I wouldn't play a pvp build where half the time was spend finding pve mobs to recharge ultimate

leepalmer95

timidobserver wrote: »

Lol this is going to be bad during no CP week.

The loss of cp will limit this builds dmg a lot.

They'll lose 25% from mighty and 25% extra crit dmg.

cjthibs

leepalmer95 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Lol this is going to be bad during no CP week.

The loss of cp will limit this builds dmg a lot.

They'll lose 25% from mighty and 25% extra crit dmg.

And it will be glorious.

Joy_Division

thankyourat wrote: »

I just really don't understand the radiant magelight hate I see on the forums. it literally prevents 100℅ of gank attempts lol. If you get one shot alot that should be the first thing you change in your build. Most competent gankers will actually leave you alone if they know you have it slotted. Almost every gank is built around a heavy attack stun if you prevent the stun you prevent the gank. I myself am not a fan of gankers, but if you are a magicka character and you get ganked just know if you had radiant magelight that wouldn't be possible. Slotting radiant magelight makes it to where if a nightblade will kill you he'll have to do it in open 1v1 combat. What more could you want from an ability?

RML does not stop a stun from Incap or Veiled strike. A RML user is still going to eat a high burst damage and still going to get CCed from a NBs goto combo.

RML also competes with the best DPS skill in the game, Inner Light. Those of use that PVE or run Maelstrom, and we do exist contrary to the forum rhetoric about PvE vs. PvP do not want to spend 3000 gold to respec every time we PvP.

RML also does not offer enough utility outside its main function to be attractive (especially since it only prevents some stuns from ganker NBs). The crit isnt bad, but Impen hurts crit. 2% passive magicka and regen just isn't worth losing a slot over.

If I'm running RML, I'll perform better against some gankers, but worse against every other build I come across. The skill better be *really* good is that's going to be the case and it's not.

It's not that I hate RML, it's that I find the "slot RML and all your gank problems are solved" arguments short-sighted and inaccurate.

Knootewoot

I also want fair fight. I want my vampire magblade to have fun and fight toe to toe with a fully buffed DK. But I can't. I can't do damage and he just lava whips me to death in a few secs.

Don't look at the steamers playing the game. They are fun to watch but do not resemble most play sessions of other people. I have seen magblades just using destroy staff and sap essencing hordes of enemies without loosing health, being marked, stunned etc. It is not realistic.

I am on the edge of dropping magblade and go stamina and wear viper/veli and wear a 2 handed and one shot people. So far I could keep myself of doing it. One-shotting people is boring I know. Dying to one-shots is also boring.

All we got here was balance and sheit. And balance left town.

#softcaps
#hardcaps
#limitedCP
#flying_cliffracer

Derra

Knootewoot wrote: »

I also want fair fight. I want my vampire magblade to have fun and fight toe to toe with a fully buffed DK. But I can't. I can't do damage and he just lava whips me to death in a few secs.

You want WHAT?

Knootewoot

Derra wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I also want fair fight. I want my vampire magblade to have fun and fight toe to toe with a fully buffed DK. But I can't. I can't do damage and he just lava whips me to death in a few secs.

You want WHAT?

It's farfetched, but I want class balance. But it will never happen. So instead of being able to "fight fair" I have to gank. I have to kill people who are off-guard, unbuffed and probably AFK.

(no offence to the people I murdered yesterday, but you guys really sucked. I'm a melee magblade for fox ake. The laughingstock of ESO)

techprince

Problem No 1 : Champion Points
Problem No 2 : 100% Crit Chance abilities

Jim_Pipp

I understand the frustration, but it feels like it Onslaught is the next thing for PVP'ers to get angry about (and I don't feel things like proc sets really have been resolved, and they are more problematic and require less skill).

The counterplay for onslaught ganking is to be with a group, or use magelight to take away the nightblades stealth, or have an AoE dot (e.g. huricane or blade cloak) that makes it difficult for them to get into range. Once exposed an onslaught build is one of the weakest builds, because most don't even run impen. I feel like people complaining about gankers are wanting everyone to have straight up fights, but what is fun about gankers is they don't play by those rules. I get ganked as often as anyone else (more often perhaps, as I typically run into the same ganker straight away after I respawn!), and it feels unfair and afterwards you are constantly on edge expecting the next attack - I quite like the sense of danger and uncertainty that comes with potential instant death. If Onslaught gets nerfed then something else will take its place, because ambushing another player is fun and an important part of cyodil's pvp.

Xeniph

NBrookus wrote: »

And yet people whine about players getting tankier. Every death recap like this one pushes people farther into tankiness. Ironically, if the poison enchant hadn't proc'd I wouldn't have instantly died... but I would have died to the 2nd ganker there running the same build, because all the NB gankers play with safety blankets now.

Strange how no one pointed out the possibilities with Onslaught on the PTS. Oh wait...



(Hint #1 cracked me up.)

This is a great example of the limitations of the build. This guy now has to go get Ulti, since the poison proc went off. The proc actually got the kb.

Took me a bit to figure this out.

Why people are just now freaking out about this ability is beyond me /shrug.
It will get fixed at some point, by removing it's ability to stealth crit.

CyrusArya

@cjthibs

What I can't seem to get you to understand is that your experience is just that...a subjective experience. Just because you get melted in 4 seconds by 'uber-combos' doesn't mean that is the universal experience for everyone. Get the idea out of your head that adding caps will bring diversity..there will always be a meta and some things that are optimal. When there were soft caps, everyone put every point into health and ran robes and and staves. Is this the variety you are talking about? lol.

Look I'm not gonna get into a extended debate with you...its clear we are on different wavelengths.Your entire argument rests on the premise that only a few builds are viable and I disagree that thats the case. You can use many setups and succeed. All I hear when you talk is "I need artificial limits placed for me to be competitive and have fun". Basically asking for hand outs and a watered down game to cater to your personal needs. And my bottom line is, the game should not be balanced around that mentality.

FearlessOne_2014

NBrookus wrote: »

And yet people whine about players getting tankier. Every death recap like this one pushes people farther into tankiness. Ironically, if the poison enchant hadn't proc'd I wouldn't have instantly died... but I would have died to the 2nd ganker there running the same build, because all the NB gankers play with safety blankets now.

Strange how no one pointed out the possibilities with Onslaught on the PTS. Oh wait...



(Hint #1 cracked me up.)

I honestly think ESO needs more of this. It'll give solo players and outcasts a ways of having fun in PvP. I whole heartedly welcome things like this to the game. I gives some value to the lone wolf. He/She still has to work for the kill through positioning, and anticipation. Just because mindless ball-zergling guilds and players are incapable at such things. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed into the game. If anything it gives the game much more meat. Mindless zerglings have too many tools at there disposal. Why can't players who don't want to mindlessly run in zerg groups have some as well?

cjthibs

CyrusArya wrote: »

@cjthibs

What I can't seem to get you to understand is that your experience is just that...a subjective experience. Just because you get melted in 4 seconds by 'uber-combos' doesn't mean that is the universal experience for everyone. Get the idea out of your head that adding caps will bring diversity..there will always be a meta and some things that are optimal. When there were soft caps, everyone put every point into health and ran robes and and staves. Is this the variety you are talking about? lol.

Look I'm not gonna get into a extended debate with you...its clear we are on different wavelengths.Your entire argument rests on the premise that only a few builds are viable and I disagree that thats the case. You can use many setups and succeed. All I hear when you talk is "I need artificial limits placed for me to be competitive and have fun". Basically asking for hand outs and a watered down game to cater to your personal needs. And my bottom line is, the game should not be balanced around that mentality.

You keep trying to turn this into, 'you have a complaint, therefore you must suck.'
Which is simply not the case. I do just fine in PvP, and have fun doing it. I can do that and still perceive imbalances.

You don't want to entertain any opposing views, that's fine, but don't twist what I said. Of course there will be optimal builds. I even said farther up that I have no issue with this.

The fundamental problem is that balance requires limits, and in this game there are none. Well, there are limits to defenses, but not to damage. Limits are exactly what is happening when something gets nerfed. Caps work to prevent the need for constant nerfing by limiting those skills from ever getting that OP in the first place. (Not perfectly, of course, but more consistently.)

The issue with staves and light armor was much more complex than that. It wasn't due to the caps, it was due to every class skill in the game being a magicka-based skill, weapon skills being underpowered, and a few other problems that have since changed. And even then, the builds that I actually saw and fought against weren't all staves and robes, not even close. The perception was that this was the most optimal, not that it was every player out there. The gulf between the optimal and the average build was much smaller, and that is the point.

If all you are hearing is "I need artificial limits placed for me to be competitive and have fun," then you are obviously not listening.

cjthibs

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

And yet people whine about players getting tankier. Every death recap like this one pushes people farther into tankiness. Ironically, if the poison enchant hadn't proc'd I wouldn't have instantly died... but I would have died to the 2nd ganker there running the same build, because all the NB gankers play with safety blankets now.

Strange how no one pointed out the possibilities with Onslaught on the PTS. Oh wait...



(Hint #1 cracked me up.)

I honestly think ESO needs more of this. It'll give solo players and outcasts a ways of having fun in PvP. I whole heartedly welcome things like this to the game. I gives some value to the lone wolf. He/She still has to work for the kill through positioning, and anticipation. Just because mindless ball-zergling guilds and players are incapable at such things. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed into the game. If anything it gives the game much more meat. Mindless zerglings have too many tools at there disposal. Why can't players who don't want to mindlessly run in zerg groups have some as well?

The game needs more one button press easy-mode insta-killing?

Ragnaroek93

I don't understand why damage out of stealth needs to be buffed at all. In my opinion it's already a huge advantage if you can buff before the fight, there is no need to make it even more easy. Just remove stealth damage multipliers, make stuff like magelight break stealth and replace stealthy passive with something completely different.

NBrookus

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I honestly think ESO needs more of this. It'll give solo players and outcasts a ways of having fun in PvP.

There were two of them and one of me. Who was the lone wolf?

The problem with insta-kill mechanics is not that someone dies (because that happens a LOT in Cyrodiil), it's that only one party is having fun and only one party is even getting to play the game at that point. There's a reason why there was a successful Deerhunter video game, but not one where you play a deer.

I can think of one other time that I've been successfully solo ganked in the past year (sribes). This romanticized story of the solo ganker just doesn't hold water, they run in packs so if the gank fails they face no consequences.

RinaldoGandolphi

NBrookus wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I honestly think ESO needs more of this. It'll give solo players and outcasts a ways of having fun in PvP.

There were two of them and one of me. Who was the lone wolf?

The problem with insta-kill mechanics is not that someone dies (because that happens a LOT in Cyrodiil), it's that only one party is having fun and only one party is even getting to play the game at that point. There's a reason why there was a successful Deerhunter video game, but not one where you play a deer.

I can think of one other time that I've been successfully solo ganked in the past year (sribes). This romanticized story of the solo ganker just doesn't hold water, they run in packs so if the gank fails they face no consequences.

This is not to mention most of these ganks will take place when you are already fighting 2-3 other people to begin with.

The zergs also uses these same gank one shot mechanics to kill outnumbered players, it happens everyday.

One shot mechanics do not belong in this game.

Even in Call of Duty you cna be shot 3-4 times beofre you die, I mean this is an MMO not a twitch shooter...one shot mechanics have no place here.

cjthibs

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Even in Call of Duty you cna be shot 3-4 times beofre you die, I mean this is an MMO not a twitch shooter...one shot mechanics have no place here.

Couldn't agree more.

Gargis

I don't know what you guys are all up in arms about.

This game will never be a balanced pvp game, ever. Its not possible. No GCD ensures that. Hence OP sets to "spread" the death around.

Animation cancelling is the albatross of this game. They destroyed pvp before it ever got going. You do realize that animations are a huge part of counter play in numerous other games, right?

Hang up your pvp gear and join the pve train. If one day they add global CDs , then you can ask for balance, until then its pointless.

kuro-dono

well said gargis. and zenimax has no balls to say no for aoe choo chooing either.

kuro-dono

doesnt really either help our situation that we have all these borged/broken sets + skils that ppl abuse and exploit. hint hint eots. hint hint shuffle, hint hint variety of things.

Gargis

I Think that the sets are by design.

Hear me out on this....

50 y/o old dog=Me. Can never compete against nubile, 18 y/o super fast twitch gaming monster who can pound out animation cancelling like a champ.

So....how do I ever win? Well maybe if we have OP sets I can.

You think that Cows ever eat cheese?

Minalan

Gargis wrote: »

I Think that the sets are by design.

Hear me out on this....

50 y/o old dog=Me. Can never compete against nubile, 18 y/o super fast twitch gaming monster who can pound out animation cancelling like a champ.

So....how do I ever win? Well maybe if we have OP sets I can.

You think that Cows ever eat cheese?

Age and treachery and all that.