Do you want restyling in the game?

STEVIL · January 2017

No

I will amend my position -

Since this is not about end game but cosmetics...

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets or dropped sets of Cp140 and under."

So can wel all be happy in agreement that for crafted and non-endgame only drop sets being motif-changeable is a good thing?

or, is this maybe about end game drop sets?

Toolzy · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

Dude, I get it. I'm just going to focus on the quote above because that's where it hits most crafters the most, and I get that too because I just spent the last two weeks getting my 5 trait up so I can craft my own Tava's Favor.

When you say it "worsens the drive to use crafted gear", I disagree with that. When you look at the player base, you have your gamers and you have your "career" minded or hardcore gamers. Those who seek end game will not be driven to use crafted gear if it doesn't meet their min/max stats. It'll force them to keep looking for better gear. Of course, this is an exception to most tanks who are using the Tava's Favor/Hist Bark/Armor Master or whatever other sets there are. I don't know much about healers or DD's but I would think that they'd be looking somewhere else other than crafting to get their proper stats no?

The rest of course will pay you to have crafted gear because ... they want to? They're not looking at DPS meters or combat logs and compete with fellow guildies. The crafted gear is what works for them now. It sustains them.

I am in the agreement that if the crafted gear was lacking or is overdue for an upgrade then yeah. Why not? But for the purpose of restyling/transmogs, I'd still vote Yes for it because, as a player, depending on how much you are committed to this, you should be able to distinguish BiS from subpar.

Toolzy · January 2017

Yes

double posted

Delpi · January 2017

Yes

It's a must have... so... no ETA

STEVIL · January 2017

No

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Yep so let's go back to it.

I'm thinking a larger adjustment but to enable restyling using the crafting stations, style item, known motif and artwork that today we see as the material tiers(remove the tiers and keep the artwork)

Thoughts?

I did have a thought a few days ago until @STEVIL kept hijacking the thread with the same thing he's been posting on here.

Here was my idea ... and I was actually trying to put value to what @STEVIL said in here,

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces."

My idea was to exclusively allow Master bs/cloth/woodworkers to reforge/retailor/recarve items with motifs that are only known to them. STEVIL's been arguing that the only thing unique to crafters is controls of how it looks. So wouldn't this idea give crafters more value?

Let's say you are the only one that has the Akaviri motif (it'll take at least 2M gold to buy all the motifs via Alliance Credits) and I wanted that motif. You can very well charge me a crazy amount plus mats to "restyle" my gear. Here are the conditions for restyling said gear:

1. The Master Crafter must have knowledge of the motif.
2. Restyling gear can only be applied to crafted gear or dropped gear that follows user accessible motif

Some people asked me in my thread how can you restyle it if it's bound. Easy...the trade UI. Instead of actually trading, I can place my set piece on the UI with the mats required to restyle it. The Master Crafter, assuming he/she knows the motif, can click on "Apply".

Again...this has nothing to do with min/max stats. It's just cosmetic.

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

Crafters would do just fine without a single crafted set in the game *IF* the game were setup so that the only way to get "quality" on drop sets was thru crafters. imagine if drop-sets were all that there was but they all dropped in White (normal/ overland), green (vet0 and Blue (hard mode.) The only way to get to purple and gold goes thru crafters doing upgrades.

in that model Crafters would be making gold right left and sideways.

ESO did not start with the model that "crafters will always make gold" though.

it started with and frankly has kept with fairly stringly the model that crafted gear is either better or as good as the dropped stuff. The idea that crafted gear is relevant to the gameplay is intrinsic in the game and that has been the case for more than just cosmetics.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

IMO if the final role of crafted equip skills is "to help drop sets be better" than the skill costs and motif costs and research times should be drastically reduced because for much much less time and the same skills you can develop consumable lines that ARE BiS and do produce "better or as good" product at all levels.

I dont see what is elitist about wanting investments in skills to be on par in terms of results.

To be very clear again...

motif change for crafted sets - yes absolutely. should be simple.
trait change for crafted sets - also fine with me.

I think customization to suit your preferences is a hallmark of crafted sets and should remain so unless some other new hallmark or unique is added to replace it.

Doesn't seem that hard. if i invest 20+skills and tons of time to be able to make stuff over and above what i spent on combat etc - i would expect that stuff to be wroth that compared to what i could be hunter-gathering with my combat skills.

But the thing is. Your idea is a completely different idea than the OP.

The OP is artwork only and no trait changes.

While I'm open to crafted set changes I don't agree with your detail especially the idea that offering restyling would further lessen the desires for crafted gear.

Let's be clear tho.....the desire was only there cause dungeons weren't viable to run other than monster sets and trials almost all were not max level.

I can't agree that crafted sets should be best in the game cause other than Vet trials, crafting is required to gold items so crafting is VERY important still especially on BOP.

I believe you're expressing a desire to make crafting more profitable. That's why I'm saying your idea is very different.

It's not really about crafted sets. It's profits

I voted no - with the caveat about crafted - because it was artwork only. Its motif change for drop sets. that gets a no from me.

Opening up crafting to change motifs for the scads of ugly drop sets out there would be a money maker for crafters.

So, no, i am not about profits.

I mean, sorry but the market for "i got this drop set and i prefer this other look" is huge compared to "i had this set crafted and now i want its look changed from what i originally chose."

if it was about profits any new feature for crafters would be a no brainer YES YES YES.

That seems obvious so i am not sure how you come to the conclusion that No is for more profits.

jircris11 · January 2017

Yes

Nickernator wrote: »

Restyling allows you to give a current item a new style.
Example: My ugly Argonian Styled helm can be changed to a beautiful Redguard styled helm.

This has been suggested back since release and we can already do this for the imperial style, so add the other styles too and make motifs great again!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS add this to the game.

God yes, I mean we have convert to imperial. Why not let you do that to all motifs and to all armor and weapons.

STEVIL · January 2017

No

Toolzy wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I agreed from the get go you should be able to change the look on your tava favor.

First post

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets."

I'm confused. You agreed from the get go, but voted no to the idea of having a transmog/restyle system in the game.

yes - unless it were restricted to crafted pieces only. Since the poll did not make that distinction i voted no.

To me - one of the draws to ESO was crafting playing a substantive tactical impactful role.
To me - I am happy paying more skills for crafting than for the use of the armor skill line itself - but i do expect some substantive results from it and not just " a different way to make gold.".
To me - one of the major defining elements of crafting vs hunter-gather is control/customization. You can build what you want but you find what is there.

So, IMO since right now the only unique feature crafted equip has vs drop sets is motif control.
You wanna expand that to say you can change your crafted after creation with motif change -great - fits that right there to a tee.

You want to say "hey drop sets need to get more desirable than they are now so lets let their motifs be changeable" and i say nah... not good for the game IMO.

But , since so many want to insist this isn't about end game drop sets - i am willing to compromise and agree that it wouldn't be as bad and would be to my mind fine for drop sets <cp140 to be motif change worthy.

cuz obviously that still leaves the customization advantage for crafteds in play.

i am sure there will be much agreement on this - cuz you know - its not about end game gear drop sets for the motif change crowd.

Right?

STEVIL · January 2017

No

Toolzy wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

Dude, I get it. I'm just going to focus on the quote above because that's where it hits most crafters the most, and I get that too because I just spent the last two weeks getting my 5 trait up so I can craft my own Tava's Favor.

When you say it "worsens the drive to use crafted gear", I disagree with that. When you look at the player base, you have your gamers and you have your "career" minded or hardcore gamers. Those who seek end game will not be driven to use crafted gear if it doesn't meet their min/max stats. It'll force them to keep looking for better gear. Of course, this is an exception to most tanks who are using the Tava's Favor/Hist Bark/Armor Master or whatever other sets there are. I don't know much about healers or DD's but I would think that they'd be looking somewhere else other than crafting to get their proper stats no?

The rest of course will pay you to have crafted gear because ... they want to? They're not looking at DPS meters or combat logs and compete with fellow guildies. The crafted gear is what works for them now. It sustains them.

I am in the agreement that if the crafted gear was lacking or is overdue for an upgrade then yeah. Why not? But for the purpose of restyling/transmogs, I'd still vote Yes for it because, as a player, depending on how much you are committed to this, you should be able to distinguish BiS from subpar.

I get the following disconnect when i read this kind of statement.

See i see it as this:

Some players are after BiS and dont care about looks will sacrifice cosmetics to get it. Motif change on drop sets wont affect them.
Some players dont care about BiS but want appearance and play - enough to complete the non-leaderboard content lets say. They can frankly get there with crafted sets for appearance and rropped jewels right now and taking whatever other drop pieces suit their fancy. if you are Ok with sub-par in exchange for cosmetics - you have it now in crafted gear. motif change for drops wont change that.
Some players want BiS and see drop sets as that and want to also get the cosmetics customized too. That would be changed by adding drop set motif change.

But unless you are wanting to make drop set motif change not involve crafters at all - anybody can right click and pop to whatever motif they want - then the changes will head thru crafters and for some that means enriching crafters. So adding motif change to drop sets boosts that too.

NewBlacksmurf · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Yep so let's go back to it.

I'm thinking a larger adjustment but to enable restyling using the crafting stations, style item, known motif and artwork that today we see as the material tiers(remove the tiers and keep the artwork)

Thoughts?

I did have a thought a few days ago until @STEVIL kept hijacking the thread with the same thing he's been posting on here.

Here was my idea ... and I was actually trying to put value to what @STEVIL said in here,

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces."

My idea was to exclusively allow Master bs/cloth/woodworkers to reforge/retailor/recarve items with motifs that are only known to them. STEVIL's been arguing that the only thing unique to crafters is controls of how it looks. So wouldn't this idea give crafters more value?

Let's say you are the only one that has the Akaviri motif (it'll take at least 2M gold to buy all the motifs via Alliance Credits) and I wanted that motif. You can very well charge me a crazy amount plus mats to "restyle" my gear. Here are the conditions for restyling said gear:

1. The Master Crafter must have knowledge of the motif.
2. Restyling gear can only be applied to crafted gear or dropped gear that follows user accessible motif

Some people asked me in my thread how can you restyle it if it's bound. Easy...the trade UI. Instead of actually trading, I can place my set piece on the UI with the mats required to restyle it. The Master Crafter, assuming he/she knows the motif, can click on "Apply".

Again...this has nothing to do with min/max stats. It's just cosmetic.

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

Crafters would do just fine without a single crafted set in the game *IF* the game were setup so that the only way to get "quality" on drop sets was thru crafters. imagine if drop-sets were all that there was but they all dropped in White (normal/ overland), green (vet0 and Blue (hard mode.) The only way to get to purple and gold goes thru crafters doing upgrades.

in that model Crafters would be making gold right left and sideways.

ESO did not start with the model that "crafters will always make gold" though.

it started with and frankly has kept with fairly stringly the model that crafted gear is either better or as good as the dropped stuff. The idea that crafted gear is relevant to the gameplay is intrinsic in the game and that has been the case for more than just cosmetics.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

IMO if the final role of crafted equip skills is "to help drop sets be better" than the skill costs and motif costs and research times should be drastically reduced because for much much less time and the same skills you can develop consumable lines that ARE BiS and do produce "better or as good" product at all levels.

I dont see what is elitist about wanting investments in skills to be on par in terms of results.

To be very clear again...

motif change for crafted sets - yes absolutely. should be simple.
trait change for crafted sets - also fine with me.

I think customization to suit your preferences is a hallmark of crafted sets and should remain so unless some other new hallmark or unique is added to replace it.

Doesn't seem that hard. if i invest 20+skills and tons of time to be able to make stuff over and above what i spent on combat etc - i would expect that stuff to be wroth that compared to what i could be hunter-gathering with my combat skills.

But the thing is. Your idea is a completely different idea than the OP.

The OP is artwork only and no trait changes.

While I'm open to crafted set changes I don't agree with your detail especially the idea that offering restyling would further lessen the desires for crafted gear.

Let's be clear tho.....the desire was only there cause dungeons weren't viable to run other than monster sets and trials almost all were not max level.

I can't agree that crafted sets should be best in the game cause other than Vet trials, crafting is required to gold items so crafting is VERY important still especially on BOP.

I believe you're expressing a desire to make crafting more profitable. That's why I'm saying your idea is very different.

It's not really about crafted sets. It's profits

I voted no - with the caveat about crafted - because it was artwork only. Its motif change for drop sets. that gets a no from me.

Opening up crafting to change motifs for the scads of ugly drop sets out there would be a money maker for crafters.

So, no, i am not about profits.

I mean, sorry but the market for "i got this drop set and i prefer this other look" is huge compared to "i had this set crafted and now i want its look changed from what i originally chose."

if it was about profits any new feature for crafters would be a no brainer YES YES YES.

That seems obvious so i am not sure how you come to the conclusion that No is for more profits.

@STEVIL

I've made this conclusion cause your comments have derailed and possibly caused your own confusion in this discussion.

Why:
Because you intent conveys to hold hostage of a artwork change idea because a completely different idea of your own that's actually 100% unrelated is your reason of voting against.

Now you later go into the detail about crafted sets. And add in something completely not written that dropped sets vs crafted sets.

The OP is saying would you like to restyle an existing item. Not crafted only or dropped only and not traits. They didn't even set a crafting requirement

It was likened to how Imperial artwork changes apply.

I've concluded that you're looking for profits cause no where in the OP does this ever involve crafting. It's requirements are

1. An item
2. Known motif
3. Desire to change artwork

STEVIL · January 2017

No

jircris11 wrote: »

Nickernator wrote: »

Restyling allows you to give a current item a new style.
Example: My ugly Argonian Styled helm can be changed to a beautiful Redguard styled helm.

This has been suggested back since release and we can already do this for the imperial style, so add the other styles too and make motifs great again!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS add this to the game.

God yes, I mean we have convert to imperial. Why not let you do that to all motifs and to all armor and weapons.

You have convert to imperial for those who paid extra real world money to get that.

You suggesting everybody gets more for free?

Toolzy · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

But , since so many want to insist this isn't about end game drop sets - i am willing to compromise and agree that it wouldn't be as bad and would be to my mind fine for drop sets <cp140 to be motif change worthy.

cuz obviously that still leaves the customization advantage for crafteds in play.

i am sure there will be much agreement on this - cuz you know - its not about end game gear drop sets for the motif change crowd.

Right?

The cosmetic change at least for me to agree on this should at least be restricted to crafted sets. Even I am iffy about dropped <cp140 or any other items that drop that follow the current accessible motifs. Monster helms are unique so they're not an issue (meaning they shouldn't be changed).

STEVIL · January 2017

No

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Yep so let's go back to it.

I'm thinking a larger adjustment but to enable restyling using the crafting stations, style item, known motif and artwork that today we see as the material tiers(remove the tiers and keep the artwork)

Thoughts?

I did have a thought a few days ago until @STEVIL kept hijacking the thread with the same thing he's been posting on here.

Here was my idea ... and I was actually trying to put value to what @STEVIL said in here,

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces."

My idea was to exclusively allow Master bs/cloth/woodworkers to reforge/retailor/recarve items with motifs that are only known to them. STEVIL's been arguing that the only thing unique to crafters is controls of how it looks. So wouldn't this idea give crafters more value?

Let's say you are the only one that has the Akaviri motif (it'll take at least 2M gold to buy all the motifs via Alliance Credits) and I wanted that motif. You can very well charge me a crazy amount plus mats to "restyle" my gear. Here are the conditions for restyling said gear:

1. The Master Crafter must have knowledge of the motif.
2. Restyling gear can only be applied to crafted gear or dropped gear that follows user accessible motif

Some people asked me in my thread how can you restyle it if it's bound. Easy...the trade UI. Instead of actually trading, I can place my set piece on the UI with the mats required to restyle it. The Master Crafter, assuming he/she knows the motif, can click on "Apply".

Again...this has nothing to do with min/max stats. It's just cosmetic.

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

Crafters would do just fine without a single crafted set in the game *IF* the game were setup so that the only way to get "quality" on drop sets was thru crafters. imagine if drop-sets were all that there was but they all dropped in White (normal/ overland), green (vet0 and Blue (hard mode.) The only way to get to purple and gold goes thru crafters doing upgrades.

in that model Crafters would be making gold right left and sideways.

ESO did not start with the model that "crafters will always make gold" though.

it started with and frankly has kept with fairly stringly the model that crafted gear is either better or as good as the dropped stuff. The idea that crafted gear is relevant to the gameplay is intrinsic in the game and that has been the case for more than just cosmetics.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

IMO if the final role of crafted equip skills is "to help drop sets be better" than the skill costs and motif costs and research times should be drastically reduced because for much much less time and the same skills you can develop consumable lines that ARE BiS and do produce "better or as good" product at all levels.

I dont see what is elitist about wanting investments in skills to be on par in terms of results.

To be very clear again...

motif change for crafted sets - yes absolutely. should be simple.
trait change for crafted sets - also fine with me.

I think customization to suit your preferences is a hallmark of crafted sets and should remain so unless some other new hallmark or unique is added to replace it.

Doesn't seem that hard. if i invest 20+skills and tons of time to be able to make stuff over and above what i spent on combat etc - i would expect that stuff to be wroth that compared to what i could be hunter-gathering with my combat skills.

But the thing is. Your idea is a completely different idea than the OP.

The OP is artwork only and no trait changes.

While I'm open to crafted set changes I don't agree with your detail especially the idea that offering restyling would further lessen the desires for crafted gear.

Let's be clear tho.....the desire was only there cause dungeons weren't viable to run other than monster sets and trials almost all were not max level.

I can't agree that crafted sets should be best in the game cause other than Vet trials, crafting is required to gold items so crafting is VERY important still especially on BOP.

I believe you're expressing a desire to make crafting more profitable. That's why I'm saying your idea is very different.

It's not really about crafted sets. It's profits

I voted no - with the caveat about crafted - because it was artwork only. Its motif change for drop sets. that gets a no from me.

Opening up crafting to change motifs for the scads of ugly drop sets out there would be a money maker for crafters.

So, no, i am not about profits.

I mean, sorry but the market for "i got this drop set and i prefer this other look" is huge compared to "i had this set crafted and now i want its look changed from what i originally chose."

if it was about profits any new feature for crafters would be a no brainer YES YES YES.

That seems obvious so i am not sure how you come to the conclusion that No is for more profits.

@STEVIL

I've made this conclusion cause your comments have derailed and possibly caused your own confusion in this discussion.

Why:
Because you intent conveys to hold hostage of a artwork change idea because a completely different idea of your own that's actually 100% unrelated is your reason of voting against.

Now you later go into the detail about crafted sets. And add in something completely not written that dropped sets vs crafted sets.

The OP is saying would you like to restyle an existing item. Not crafted only or dropped only and not traits. They didn't even set a crafting requirement

It was likened to how Imperial artwork changes apply.

I've concluded that you're looking for profits cause no where in the OP does this ever involve crafting. It's requirements are

1. An item
2. Known motif
3. Desire to change artwork

@NewBlacksmurf

i know you seem to want to manufacture this picture of my intent but i cant think how i can make it any clearer than my original post did.

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets."

By your list the Op only restrictions were that you have an item and you know a motif and a change is made.

Since that doesn't include "only for crafted sets" i voted no.

Somehow somewhere in your mind that turns into STEVIL wants profits - well hey thats you... not me.

Its very imaginative and imaginations are like opinions and we know what those are like.

As i pointed out, a system letting crafters change motifs for anyone on anything would make lotsa money for crafters and i oppose that.

NewBlacksmurf · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Yep so let's go back to it.

I'm thinking a larger adjustment but to enable restyling using the crafting stations, style item, known motif and artwork that today we see as the material tiers(remove the tiers and keep the artwork)

Thoughts?

I did have a thought a few days ago until @STEVIL kept hijacking the thread with the same thing he's been posting on here.

Here was my idea ... and I was actually trying to put value to what @STEVIL said in here,

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces."

My idea was to exclusively allow Master bs/cloth/woodworkers to reforge/retailor/recarve items with motifs that are only known to them. STEVIL's been arguing that the only thing unique to crafters is controls of how it looks. So wouldn't this idea give crafters more value?

Let's say you are the only one that has the Akaviri motif (it'll take at least 2M gold to buy all the motifs via Alliance Credits) and I wanted that motif. You can very well charge me a crazy amount plus mats to "restyle" my gear. Here are the conditions for restyling said gear:

1. The Master Crafter must have knowledge of the motif.
2. Restyling gear can only be applied to crafted gear or dropped gear that follows user accessible motif

Some people asked me in my thread how can you restyle it if it's bound. Easy...the trade UI. Instead of actually trading, I can place my set piece on the UI with the mats required to restyle it. The Master Crafter, assuming he/she knows the motif, can click on "Apply".

Again...this has nothing to do with min/max stats. It's just cosmetic.

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

Crafters would do just fine without a single crafted set in the game *IF* the game were setup so that the only way to get "quality" on drop sets was thru crafters. imagine if drop-sets were all that there was but they all dropped in White (normal/ overland), green (vet0 and Blue (hard mode.) The only way to get to purple and gold goes thru crafters doing upgrades.

in that model Crafters would be making gold right left and sideways.

ESO did not start with the model that "crafters will always make gold" though.

it started with and frankly has kept with fairly stringly the model that crafted gear is either better or as good as the dropped stuff. The idea that crafted gear is relevant to the gameplay is intrinsic in the game and that has been the case for more than just cosmetics.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

IMO if the final role of crafted equip skills is "to help drop sets be better" than the skill costs and motif costs and research times should be drastically reduced because for much much less time and the same skills you can develop consumable lines that ARE BiS and do produce "better or as good" product at all levels.

I dont see what is elitist about wanting investments in skills to be on par in terms of results.

To be very clear again...

motif change for crafted sets - yes absolutely. should be simple.
trait change for crafted sets - also fine with me.

I think customization to suit your preferences is a hallmark of crafted sets and should remain so unless some other new hallmark or unique is added to replace it.

Doesn't seem that hard. if i invest 20+skills and tons of time to be able to make stuff over and above what i spent on combat etc - i would expect that stuff to be wroth that compared to what i could be hunter-gathering with my combat skills.

But the thing is. Your idea is a completely different idea than the OP.

The OP is artwork only and no trait changes.

While I'm open to crafted set changes I don't agree with your detail especially the idea that offering restyling would further lessen the desires for crafted gear.

Let's be clear tho.....the desire was only there cause dungeons weren't viable to run other than monster sets and trials almost all were not max level.

I can't agree that crafted sets should be best in the game cause other than Vet trials, crafting is required to gold items so crafting is VERY important still especially on BOP.

I believe you're expressing a desire to make crafting more profitable. That's why I'm saying your idea is very different.

It's not really about crafted sets. It's profits

I voted no - with the caveat about crafted - because it was artwork only. Its motif change for drop sets. that gets a no from me.

Opening up crafting to change motifs for the scads of ugly drop sets out there would be a money maker for crafters.

So, no, i am not about profits.

I mean, sorry but the market for "i got this drop set and i prefer this other look" is huge compared to "i had this set crafted and now i want its look changed from what i originally chose."

if it was about profits any new feature for crafters would be a no brainer YES YES YES.

That seems obvious so i am not sure how you come to the conclusion that No is for more profits.

@STEVIL

I've made this conclusion cause your comments have derailed and possibly caused your own confusion in this discussion.

Why:
Because you intent conveys to hold hostage of a artwork change idea because a completely different idea of your own that's actually 100% unrelated is your reason of voting against.

Now you later go into the detail about crafted sets. And add in something completely not written that dropped sets vs crafted sets.

The OP is saying would you like to restyle an existing item. Not crafted only or dropped only and not traits. They didn't even set a crafting requirement

It was likened to how Imperial artwork changes apply.

I've concluded that you're looking for profits cause no where in the OP does this ever involve crafting. It's requirements are

1. An item
2. Known motif
3. Desire to change artwork

@NewBlacksmurf

i know you seem to want to manufacture this picture of my intent but i cant think how i can make it any clearer than my original post did.

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets."

By your list the Op only restrictions were that you have an item and you know a motif and a change is made.

Since that doesn't include "only for crafted sets" i voted no.

Somehow somewhere in your mind that turns into STEVIL wants profits - well hey thats you... not me.

Its very imaginative and imaginations are like opinions and we know what those are like.

As i pointed out, a system letting crafters change motifs for anyone on anything would make lotsa money for crafters and i oppose that.

@STEVIL

How does someone get crafted sets?
-from a crafter

Why would style changes like the Imperial change be limited to crafted sets only?
-it wouldn't cause Imperial changes actually don't change drops sets so in part that's why ppl want this artwork change.

If drop sets can't be changed and if you only want it to apply to crafted sets only. We know crafted sets require a crafter and typically ppl don't craft cp160 sets for free.....

We also know you want non crafted items excluded....

AND you later say cp140 and under....

Yes I drew the conclusion it's for profit cause that's the only way it's possible.

No other crafter in this discussion including me a 9 trait master crafter has any concerns with artwork changes.

Jeremy · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

Too much elitism happening in a thread that's simply asking if people want "restyling" to happen. This same thing happened to a thread I started a few days ago.

Keep it simple.

You could say that the dropped sets have better stats but there are still some of us like tanks that will need crafted gear mixed with dropped sets to get the right stats. Why shouldn't I be able to restyle my Tava's Favor any time I want? You didn't pay for my game. You aren't paying for my sub. IMO, I want a restyle/transmog system put in place.

Going back to the OP, "Do you want restyling in game?" No more of this endgame talk [snip]. If you want to debate and whine about stats between crafted vs. dropped sets, then go start your own thread instead of hijacking them.

[Edited for bypassing censor]

I agreed from the get go you should be able to change the look on your tava favor.

First post

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets."

I'm not sure why you say we agree though. I am saying it should be available for both crafted and dropped sets in the part you bolded out.

STEVIL · January 2017

No

Jeremy wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

Too much elitism happening in a thread that's simply asking if people want "restyling" to happen. This same thing happened to a thread I started a few days ago.

Keep it simple.

You could say that the dropped sets have better stats but there are still some of us like tanks that will need crafted gear mixed with dropped sets to get the right stats. Why shouldn't I be able to restyle my Tava's Favor any time I want? You didn't pay for my game. You aren't paying for my sub. IMO, I want a restyle/transmog system put in place.

Going back to the OP, "Do you want restyling in game?" No more of this endgame talk [snip]. If you want to debate and whine about stats between crafted vs. dropped sets, then go start your own thread instead of hijacking them.

[Edited for bypassing censor]

I agreed from the get go you should be able to change the look on your tava favor.

First post

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets."

I'm not sure why you say we agree though. I am saying it should be available for both crafted and dropped sets in the part you bolded out.

"Why shouldn't I be able to restyle my Tava's Favor any time I want? You didn't pay for my game. You aren't paying for my sub."

Tava's favor is a crafted set. i agreed you should be able to change its look.

STEVIL · January 2017

No

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Yep so let's go back to it.

I'm thinking a larger adjustment but to enable restyling using the crafting stations, style item, known motif and artwork that today we see as the material tiers(remove the tiers and keep the artwork)

Thoughts?

I did have a thought a few days ago until @STEVIL kept hijacking the thread with the same thing he's been posting on here.

Here was my idea ... and I was actually trying to put value to what @STEVIL said in here,

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces."

My idea was to exclusively allow Master bs/cloth/woodworkers to reforge/retailor/recarve items with motifs that are only known to them. STEVIL's been arguing that the only thing unique to crafters is controls of how it looks. So wouldn't this idea give crafters more value?

Let's say you are the only one that has the Akaviri motif (it'll take at least 2M gold to buy all the motifs via Alliance Credits) and I wanted that motif. You can very well charge me a crazy amount plus mats to "restyle" my gear. Here are the conditions for restyling said gear:

1. The Master Crafter must have knowledge of the motif.
2. Restyling gear can only be applied to crafted gear or dropped gear that follows user accessible motif

Some people asked me in my thread how can you restyle it if it's bound. Easy...the trade UI. Instead of actually trading, I can place my set piece on the UI with the mats required to restyle it. The Master Crafter, assuming he/she knows the motif, can click on "Apply".

Again...this has nothing to do with min/max stats. It's just cosmetic.

STEVIL has been arguing for the value of and use of crafted sets - not crafters.

Crafters would do just fine without a single crafted set in the game *IF* the game were setup so that the only way to get "quality" on drop sets was thru crafters. imagine if drop-sets were all that there was but they all dropped in White (normal/ overland), green (vet0 and Blue (hard mode.) The only way to get to purple and gold goes thru crafters doing upgrades.

in that model Crafters would be making gold right left and sideways.

ESO did not start with the model that "crafters will always make gold" though.

it started with and frankly has kept with fairly stringly the model that crafted gear is either better or as good as the dropped stuff. The idea that crafted gear is relevant to the gameplay is intrinsic in the game and that has been the case for more than just cosmetics.

With 1T that balance shifted down quite a bit but only for crafted equip.

I would like to see it shifted back - not by taking away from drop sets, not by removing their vital role in gameplay, but by giving both unique aspects to bring to bear on the end game selection.

Your proposal helps "crafters" with their get gold side of things but it does worsen the drive to use crafted gear.

IMO if the final role of crafted equip skills is "to help drop sets be better" than the skill costs and motif costs and research times should be drastically reduced because for much much less time and the same skills you can develop consumable lines that ARE BiS and do produce "better or as good" product at all levels.

I dont see what is elitist about wanting investments in skills to be on par in terms of results.

To be very clear again...

motif change for crafted sets - yes absolutely. should be simple.
trait change for crafted sets - also fine with me.

I think customization to suit your preferences is a hallmark of crafted sets and should remain so unless some other new hallmark or unique is added to replace it.

Doesn't seem that hard. if i invest 20+skills and tons of time to be able to make stuff over and above what i spent on combat etc - i would expect that stuff to be wroth that compared to what i could be hunter-gathering with my combat skills.

But the thing is. Your idea is a completely different idea than the OP.

The OP is artwork only and no trait changes.

While I'm open to crafted set changes I don't agree with your detail especially the idea that offering restyling would further lessen the desires for crafted gear.

Let's be clear tho.....the desire was only there cause dungeons weren't viable to run other than monster sets and trials almost all were not max level.

I can't agree that crafted sets should be best in the game cause other than Vet trials, crafting is required to gold items so crafting is VERY important still especially on BOP.

I believe you're expressing a desire to make crafting more profitable. That's why I'm saying your idea is very different.

It's not really about crafted sets. It's profits

I voted no - with the caveat about crafted - because it was artwork only. Its motif change for drop sets. that gets a no from me.

Opening up crafting to change motifs for the scads of ugly drop sets out there would be a money maker for crafters.

So, no, i am not about profits.

I mean, sorry but the market for "i got this drop set and i prefer this other look" is huge compared to "i had this set crafted and now i want its look changed from what i originally chose."

if it was about profits any new feature for crafters would be a no brainer YES YES YES.

That seems obvious so i am not sure how you come to the conclusion that No is for more profits.

@STEVIL

I've made this conclusion cause your comments have derailed and possibly caused your own confusion in this discussion.

Why:
Because you intent conveys to hold hostage of a artwork change idea because a completely different idea of your own that's actually 100% unrelated is your reason of voting against.

Now you later go into the detail about crafted sets. And add in something completely not written that dropped sets vs crafted sets.

The OP is saying would you like to restyle an existing item. Not crafted only or dropped only and not traits. They didn't even set a crafting requirement

It was likened to how Imperial artwork changes apply.

I've concluded that you're looking for profits cause no where in the OP does this ever involve crafting. It's requirements are

1. An item
2. Known motif
3. Desire to change artwork

@NewBlacksmurf

i know you seem to want to manufacture this picture of my intent but i cant think how i can make it any clearer than my original post did.

"No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets."

By your list the Op only restrictions were that you have an item and you know a motif and a change is made.

Since that doesn't include "only for crafted sets" i voted no.

Somehow somewhere in your mind that turns into STEVIL wants profits - well hey thats you... not me.

Its very imaginative and imaginations are like opinions and we know what those are like.

As i pointed out, a system letting crafters change motifs for anyone on anything would make lotsa money for crafters and i oppose that.

@STEVIL

How does someone get crafted sets?
-from a crafter

Why would style changes like the Imperial change be limited to crafted sets only?
-it wouldn't cause Imperial changes actually don't change drops sets so in part that's why ppl want this artwork change.

If drop sets can't be changed and if you only want it to apply to crafted sets only. We know crafted sets require a crafter and typically ppl don't craft cp160 sets for free.....

We also know you want non crafted items excluded....

AND you later say cp140 and under....

Yes I drew the conclusion it's for profit cause that's the only way it's possible.

No other crafter in this discussion including me a 9 trait master crafter has any concerns with artwork changes.

Again - imaginative - ignores anything that would contradict it to reach its destination but hey - thats fine.

As for knowing what other crafters think - not a mind reader so... i will just wait for my psychic powers before making such claims.

I mean, i dont know if the 10 other no votes were from crafters or if some of the yes then reverse were crafters.

maybe you have the admin rights to get into those accounts and see their skills.

I dont so... nothing to add to that claim.

Vanthras79 · January 2017

Yes

BigBragg wrote: »

But then how will ZOS make money on costumes?!

Forcing us to buy costumes to hide ugly head and shoulder pads is not a cool move ZOS. Yes the costumes are fun, but they should not replace the desire for motifs.

BigBragg · January 2017

Yes

Vanthras79 wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

But then how will ZOS make money on costumes?!

Forcing us to buy costumes to hide ugly head and shoulder pads is not a cool move ZOS. Yes the costumes are fun, but they should not replace the desire for motifs.

Was just being satirical for a dash of comedic value, not trying to go full snarky mode.

kargen27 · January 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

The mechanism of how (what clicks, where, how often etc) drops sets get improved is irrelevant to me.
The mechanism of how (what clicks, where, how often etc) crafted sets lose their only remaining unique capability that cannot be currently done in drop sets is irrelevant.

Without crafted set getting new and improved unique capabilities beyond the cosmetics they have now, giving that last cosmetic unique facet away and in the process improving drop sets is a no-way-jose for me. Its a boon, perma-long-term, to drop set hunter-gatherers with the (depending on how) token one-time transient function for the crafters but not for the crafted set wearers who now see their last unique aspect everywhere.

@STEVIL

So what's wrong with the crafted sets now that you feel they need some boosting?

Asking cause I still craft a 5 piece to go with the drops so I'll have two 5 pieces.

Same as you, @NewBlacksmurf, most of my characters have one (1) dropped set accompanying one (1) crafted set to juxtapose set bonuses with style.

But, some of the crafted sets are sorely in need of a boost to make them viable again ... which is part of what @STEVIL is getting at.

Does anyone use Alessia's Bulwark? No.

Any players theorycrafting Oblivion's Foe with the new Soul Assault? No.

Are there recent (yesterday) forum threads about Willow's Path still broken? Yes.

So, we can't easily dismiss @STEVIL's observations.

In fact, a poorly implemented transmog system would be the nail in the coffin for crafted gear and collecting motifs (as they are in Live currently). I still support it. But, it has to be done correctly ... starting with a check of the player's motif knowledge before transmog.

This is why I think requiring a weapon or piece of armor with the style you want to be used to fuse the two might work. That would mean a crafter would actually have to make the piece to be combined with the desired piece in most cases. If you wanted to take it farther you could require the person fusing the two pieces actually know the style as well. To make it really difficult make them know the style and trait. I would prefer making fused armor or weapons bind on equip. This would allow people who invested into being a master crafter a way to put that to use earning gold.

For me the issue of some crafted sets being worthless is separate from dropped sets often looking bad. Lumping the two together makes things more complex and less likely to be done. Kind of like when congress decides to work on a "comprehensive" new bill. That just means they are going to make it so big and complex that it will be in committee forever so they don't actually have to ever vote on it.

STEVIL · January 2017

No

kargen27 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

The mechanism of how (what clicks, where, how often etc) drops sets get improved is irrelevant to me.
The mechanism of how (what clicks, where, how often etc) crafted sets lose their only remaining unique capability that cannot be currently done in drop sets is irrelevant.

Without crafted set getting new and improved unique capabilities beyond the cosmetics they have now, giving that last cosmetic unique facet away and in the process improving drop sets is a no-way-jose for me. Its a boon, perma-long-term, to drop set hunter-gatherers with the (depending on how) token one-time transient function for the crafters but not for the crafted set wearers who now see their last unique aspect everywhere.

@STEVIL

So what's wrong with the crafted sets now that you feel they need some boosting?

Asking cause I still craft a 5 piece to go with the drops so I'll have two 5 pieces.

Same as you, @NewBlacksmurf, most of my characters have one (1) dropped set accompanying one (1) crafted set to juxtapose set bonuses with style.

But, some of the crafted sets are sorely in need of a boost to make them viable again ... which is part of what @STEVIL is getting at.

Does anyone use Alessia's Bulwark? No.

Any players theorycrafting Oblivion's Foe with the new Soul Assault? No.

Are there recent (yesterday) forum threads about Willow's Path still broken? Yes.

So, we can't easily dismiss @STEVIL's observations.

In fact, a poorly implemented transmog system would be the nail in the coffin for crafted gear and collecting motifs (as they are in Live currently). I still support it. But, it has to be done correctly ... starting with a check of the player's motif knowledge before transmog.

This is why I think requiring a weapon or piece of armor with the style you want to be used to fuse the two might work. That would mean a crafter would actually have to make the piece to be combined with the desired piece in most cases. If you wanted to take it farther you could require the person fusing the two pieces actually know the style as well. To make it really difficult make them know the style and trait. I would prefer making fused armor or weapons bind on equip. This would allow people who invested into being a master crafter a way to put that to use earning gold.

For me the issue of some crafted sets being worthless is separate from dropped sets often looking bad. Lumping the two together makes things more complex and less likely to be done. Kind of like when congress decides to work on a "comprehensive" new bill. That just means they are going to make it so big and complex that it will be in committee forever so they don't actually have to ever vote on it.

For me, when dealing with complex interactive systems like this one, where multiple factors play into use vs not use decisions, the more you pigeon hole the topic to exclude related issues that dont agree with you, the less likely you are to get a good result.

if you exclude enough most detail, anything can be made to sound reasonable.

jarrod777 · January 2017

Yes

I wish for this everyday.

Kram8ion · January 2017

Yes

Hell yeh

Snippit_Thomas · January 2017

Yes

Yes - Make having the Motif books relevant again

trbrelinskib14_ESO · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces.

traits - you can get thru farming.

weight - some drop sets come in variable weights so that is not unique for all - more mixed than i thought actually.

Giving motif control to drop sets removes one of the few remaining "why crafted sets exist" benefits.

There's no reason to dump player style just because crafted sets are so niche. The real solution is to both have a restyling/wardrobe/etc. system AND make crafted sets competitive.

Personally, I think restyling doesn't go far enough. We should have complete control over aesthetics, mixing and matching armor looks/costume components/etc. regardless of the weight of our actual underlying armor. We can already do it with costumes, I see no reason not to do it here.

AFTER crafted sets get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time, then sure we can talk about beefing up drop sets cosmetics.

Not before.

It doesn't have to be one way. You implement it along with the improvement of crafted sets... That can happen. There is no reason to not allow customization of item sets based on your known motifs and set it to having to be a master level at that skill in order to do it. So crafting still is important.

Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style. I care way more about the look of my character than some stupid number crunching. And I also never farm for anything in game. I don't repeat any dungeons with a character. I may do a dungeon multiple times, but that's with different characters because that is what that character is doing (not for farming). I really don't care about drop sets... I use crafted sets. But it would be very nice to have the option to change the style of something you find based on your crafting knowledge.

trbrelinskib14_ESO · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces.

traits - you can get thru farming.

weight - some drop sets come in variable weights so that is not unique for all - more mixed than i thought actually.

Giving motif control to drop sets removes one of the few remaining "why crafted sets exist" benefits.

There's no reason to dump player style just because crafted sets are so niche. The real solution is to both have a restyling/wardrobe/etc. system AND make crafted sets competitive.

Personally, I think restyling doesn't go far enough. We should have complete control over aesthetics, mixing and matching armor looks/costume components/etc. regardless of the weight of our actual underlying armor. We can already do it with costumes, I see no reason not to do it here.

AFTER crafted sets get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time, then sure we can talk about beefing up drop sets cosmetics.

Not before.

Disagree, aesthetic needs trump an accessory system's need to remain viable. It helps more people to have freedom of customization than for crafters to feel useful, and I say this as a current complete master crafter (minus the new 3 million gold provisioning recipe, still working on that). Really though I can't image they'd do any kind of wardrobe or restyling system without requiring motif knowledge, so crafters would still have the run of it.

to be clear aesthetic needs trump a single armor skill line's need to remain viable would not fly as reasonable game design logic and nor would aesthetic needs trump a single weapon skill line's need to remain viable nor would aesthetic needs trump a single class skill line's need to remain viable

IMO it shouldn't for equipment crafting skill lines either - given the other crafts are hands down no-brainer must haves - not just prettier.

if more people prioritized aesthetics over substance then there would be mostly crafted sets and drop-jewel sets in play than drop sets in play and not nearly as much hue and cry for a new drop-set-support system to be added.

There is nothing stopping anyone who cares more for aesthetics right now from completely having every visually identifiable piece of gear in whatever motif they want - just use all crafted arms and armor. The jewels dont show and there are fairly readily available jewels a plenty.

But in fact, what you have is more people prioritizing substance over style, choosing the "drop sets" modes - sometimes complete drop sets with no crafted - and then asking for that aesthetic sacrifice of their substance-based choice to get fixed and if that means crafted sets go even further down the road to the dodo - who cares, right?

Well, some crafters do and some gamers do who feel that the game works better when major systems requiring huge skill dumps of 20+ and more time than any other development dont suddenyl become not anywhere balanced in terms of value for investment.

if the <20 skills point sunk into the heavy armor skill line netted you basically mostly cosmetics and convenience instead of worthwhile benefits on par with light and heavy or at least close - then folks wouldn't defend taking raising light and medium defenses based on the logic of "but the aesthetics look better for those sets so lets beef them up so folks dont have to wear heavy for defense."

@STEVIL You are arguing for only one way... and it doesn't have to be that way. This would not in any way invalidate the time and skill points you spent on crafting and gaining motifs. I really don't see what your point is. The restyling is tied to crafting... how the hell does that invalidate crafting? It doesn't. It's a benefit for those who do put time into crafting. And then you make crafted sets better and now everyone has options. No one is left out. The people that don't care about how something looks can continue to just use drop sets and not spend the time to unlock the restyling options through crafting and those that do craft get an added bonus. It's a win win... Your argument doesn't hold.

Cpt_Teemo · January 2017

Yes

There should be some compromise or a cross balance if they were to decide to bring this into the game, maybe make it so that you have to spend 2 trait stones you want to convert it to along with lets say 5k gold per piece, make it another gold sink and also costs twice as many trait stones.

Forgot about the other kind of non craftable armors, lets say those would take 3 stones + 7k per imo.

STEVIL · January 2017

No

trbrelinskib14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces.

traits - you can get thru farming.

weight - some drop sets come in variable weights so that is not unique for all - more mixed than i thought actually.

Giving motif control to drop sets removes one of the few remaining "why crafted sets exist" benefits.

There's no reason to dump player style just because crafted sets are so niche. The real solution is to both have a restyling/wardrobe/etc. system AND make crafted sets competitive.

Personally, I think restyling doesn't go far enough. We should have complete control over aesthetics, mixing and matching armor looks/costume components/etc. regardless of the weight of our actual underlying armor. We can already do it with costumes, I see no reason not to do it here.

AFTER crafted sets get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time, then sure we can talk about beefing up drop sets cosmetics.

Not before.

Disagree, aesthetic needs trump an accessory system's need to remain viable. It helps more people to have freedom of customization than for crafters to feel useful, and I say this as a current complete master crafter (minus the new 3 million gold provisioning recipe, still working on that). Really though I can't image they'd do any kind of wardrobe or restyling system without requiring motif knowledge, so crafters would still have the run of it.

to be clear aesthetic needs trump a single armor skill line's need to remain viable would not fly as reasonable game design logic and nor would aesthetic needs trump a single weapon skill line's need to remain viable nor would aesthetic needs trump a single class skill line's need to remain viable

IMO it shouldn't for equipment crafting skill lines either - given the other crafts are hands down no-brainer must haves - not just prettier.

if more people prioritized aesthetics over substance then there would be mostly crafted sets and drop-jewel sets in play than drop sets in play and not nearly as much hue and cry for a new drop-set-support system to be added.

There is nothing stopping anyone who cares more for aesthetics right now from completely having every visually identifiable piece of gear in whatever motif they want - just use all crafted arms and armor. The jewels dont show and there are fairly readily available jewels a plenty.

But in fact, what you have is more people prioritizing substance over style, choosing the "drop sets" modes - sometimes complete drop sets with no crafted - and then asking for that aesthetic sacrifice of their substance-based choice to get fixed and if that means crafted sets go even further down the road to the dodo - who cares, right?

Well, some crafters do and some gamers do who feel that the game works better when major systems requiring huge skill dumps of 20+ and more time than any other development dont suddenyl become not anywhere balanced in terms of value for investment.

if the <20 skills point sunk into the heavy armor skill line netted you basically mostly cosmetics and convenience instead of worthwhile benefits on par with light and heavy or at least close - then folks wouldn't defend taking raising light and medium defenses based on the logic of "but the aesthetics look better for those sets so lets beef them up so folks dont have to wear heavy for defense."

@STEVIL You are arguing for only one way... and it doesn't have to be that way. This would not in any way invalidate the time and skill points you spent on crafting and gaining motifs. I really don't see what your point is. The restyling is tied to crafting... how the hell does that invalidate crafting? It doesn't. It's a benefit for those who do put time into crafting. And then you make crafted sets better and now everyone has options. No one is left out. The people that don't care about how something looks can continue to just use drop sets and not spend the time to unlock the restyling options through crafting and those that do craft get an added bonus. It's a win win... Your argument doesn't hold.

before i get going...

here is an experiment for you.

Go to any guild store or maybe three now, any one with substantial quantity of goods.
Search for weapons or armor any type.
Sort by value highest to lowest.
See how far down you have to go before you see a crafted set piece.

Then think about why you think its a good thing (for equipment crafting) to make drop sets even more appealing to more people.

Let me point you to the other poster right above you who doesn't agree with me either but who just said "Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style"

Simply because they cant control the style of drop sets - so they use crafted instead.

giving them the ability to change or get changed their drop sets motifs wont make them more likely to use crafteds, will it? They are already using crafteds because of the looks.

If they could change or get changed their drop sets motifs, then the "simply because i can't control the style" would vanish in a push of "lets make drop sets even more appealing" code and (maybe with that players or maybe the one next to them0 fewer folks would see a need to use crafted sets.

Thats what happens when something of import (control of looks) goes from "exclusive to" to "widely available." The draw to the formerly "exclusive to" (crafted sets in this case) goes down.

let me ask you this - what would happen if tomorrow code change and viola @OldBlackSmurfeete changed the rules so that with a right-click and select "spiked punch" all pasty white dropped one effect potions like potion of health could be transformed into tri-stat potions of health/magica/stamina matching the effectiveness of the best crafted tri-stat potion?

A lot of people would like that. No more burning tons of expensive mats making potions needed for trials burning dozens per outing. Just casual farm and right click and tripot-mania ensues.

if they right click on stamina pot - it turns into tri-effect stamina/brutality/savagery and similar for magica pot.

Now, everybody gets right-click and no more restricting themselves to crafted potions for end game content.

is suddenly alchemy better?

No - well some seem to think that might be good for equip crafting and style?

What if the alchemy thingy had to have a crafter do the deed? They still use basic normal easy drop pots but hey not like a whole set of ingredients. So now folks bring cheapo drop-pots to the alchemist and they do a little dance and the cheaper to make but just as good potions flood the market and hey... there you go.

better for alchemy?

No?

But, the one remaining unique thing crafted sets have - style control - turning that loose on drop sets - thats good for equipment crafting?

No.

its not.

Its good for drop sets.

Crafted sets gain nothing and even lose by comparison.

Drop sets tho, they get more valuable because folks like the poster above dont have that Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style to fall back on.

if alchemy was able to spike up dropped potions - make them as good as crafted pots - then drop pots would go up in value and use and crafted would go down.

Same thing for drops vs crafteds.

From my experience as a crafter in ESO - there is very little money in crafting equip sets. Any "value" comes from the mats used (which are now pretty ubiquitous), the quality tokens spent or the style token/motif-rarity. More reliable money in larger amounts can be gained from selling consumables either crafted or materials. So a "not right-click imperial style" conversion deal for drop sets would make crafters a lot of money - but it would finish off crafted sets or come pretty close IMO as their last and only unique feature becomes non-unique. I joked above - at that point remove the equipment from the crafting lines and rename them to "Alterations."

So, if you want the primary goal of the crafted skill equipment lines to be "make money" then sure, go win-win for the gold with drop set motif change.

But if you want them to be - like the consumable crafting skills are - vital crafters for the whole game and not just the cosmetically minded - then its a good idea to not give away the last cow on the farm and hope another herd wanders by later maybe sometime.

IMO
YMMV
yahdee yahdee

NewBlacksmurf · January 2017

Yes

STEVIL wrote: »

trbrelinskib14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces.

traits - you can get thru farming.

weight - some drop sets come in variable weights so that is not unique for all - more mixed than i thought actually.

Giving motif control to drop sets removes one of the few remaining "why crafted sets exist" benefits.

There's no reason to dump player style just because crafted sets are so niche. The real solution is to both have a restyling/wardrobe/etc. system AND make crafted sets competitive.

Personally, I think restyling doesn't go far enough. We should have complete control over aesthetics, mixing and matching armor looks/costume components/etc. regardless of the weight of our actual underlying armor. We can already do it with costumes, I see no reason not to do it here.

AFTER crafted sets get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time, then sure we can talk about beefing up drop sets cosmetics.

Not before.

Disagree, aesthetic needs trump an accessory system's need to remain viable. It helps more people to have freedom of customization than for crafters to feel useful, and I say this as a current complete master crafter (minus the new 3 million gold provisioning recipe, still working on that). Really though I can't image they'd do any kind of wardrobe or restyling system without requiring motif knowledge, so crafters would still have the run of it.

to be clear aesthetic needs trump a single armor skill line's need to remain viable would not fly as reasonable game design logic and nor would aesthetic needs trump a single weapon skill line's need to remain viable nor would aesthetic needs trump a single class skill line's need to remain viable

IMO it shouldn't for equipment crafting skill lines either - given the other crafts are hands down no-brainer must haves - not just prettier.

if more people prioritized aesthetics over substance then there would be mostly crafted sets and drop-jewel sets in play than drop sets in play and not nearly as much hue and cry for a new drop-set-support system to be added.

There is nothing stopping anyone who cares more for aesthetics right now from completely having every visually identifiable piece of gear in whatever motif they want - just use all crafted arms and armor. The jewels dont show and there are fairly readily available jewels a plenty.

But in fact, what you have is more people prioritizing substance over style, choosing the "drop sets" modes - sometimes complete drop sets with no crafted - and then asking for that aesthetic sacrifice of their substance-based choice to get fixed and if that means crafted sets go even further down the road to the dodo - who cares, right?

Well, some crafters do and some gamers do who feel that the game works better when major systems requiring huge skill dumps of 20+ and more time than any other development dont suddenyl become not anywhere balanced in terms of value for investment.

if the <20 skills point sunk into the heavy armor skill line netted you basically mostly cosmetics and convenience instead of worthwhile benefits on par with light and heavy or at least close - then folks wouldn't defend taking raising light and medium defenses based on the logic of "but the aesthetics look better for those sets so lets beef them up so folks dont have to wear heavy for defense."

@STEVIL You are arguing for only one way... and it doesn't have to be that way. This would not in any way invalidate the time and skill points you spent on crafting and gaining motifs. I really don't see what your point is. The restyling is tied to crafting... how the hell does that invalidate crafting? It doesn't. It's a benefit for those who do put time into crafting. And then you make crafted sets better and now everyone has options. No one is left out. The people that don't care about how something looks can continue to just use drop sets and not spend the time to unlock the restyling options through crafting and those that do craft get an added bonus. It's a win win... Your argument doesn't hold.

before i get going...

here is an experiment for you.

Go to any guild store or maybe three now, any one with substantial quantity of goods.
Search for weapons or armor any type.
Sort by value highest to lowest.
See how far down you have to go before you see a crafted set piece.

Then think about why you think its a good thing (for equipment crafting) to make drop sets even more appealing to more people.

Let me point you to the other poster right above you who doesn't agree with me either but who just said "Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style"

Simply because they cant control the style of drop sets - so they use crafted instead.

giving them the ability to change or get changed their drop sets motifs wont make them more likely to use crafteds, will it? They are already using crafteds because of the looks.

If they could change or get changed their drop sets motifs, then the "simply because i can't control the style" would vanish in a push of "lets make drop sets even more appealing" code and (maybe with that players or maybe the one next to them0 fewer folks would see a need to use crafted sets.

Thats what happens when something of import (control of looks) goes from "exclusive to" to "widely available." The draw to the formerly "exclusive to" (crafted sets in this case) goes down.

let me ask you this - what would happen if tomorrow code change and viola @OldBlackSmurfeete changed the rules so that with a right-click and select "spiked punch" all pasty white dropped one effect potions like potion of health could be transformed into tri-stat potions of health/magica/stamina matching the effectiveness of the best crafted tri-stat potion?

A lot of people would like that. No more burning tons of expensive mats making potions needed for trials burning dozens per outing. Just casual farm and right click and tripot-mania ensues.

if they right click on stamina pot - it turns into tri-effect stamina/brutality/savagery and similar for magica pot.

Now, everybody gets right-click and no more restricting themselves to crafted potions for end game content.

is suddenly alchemy better?

No - well some seem to think that might be good for equip crafting and style?

What if the alchemy thingy had to have a crafter do the deed? They still use basic normal easy drop pots but hey not like a whole set of ingredients. So now folks bring cheapo drop-pots to the alchemist and they do a little dance and the cheaper to make but just as good potions flood the market and hey... there you go.

better for alchemy?

No?

But, the one remaining unique thing crafted sets have - style control - turning that loose on drop sets - thats good for equipment crafting?

No.

its not.

Its good for drop sets.

Crafted sets gain nothing and even lose by comparison.

Drop sets tho, they get more valuable because folks like the poster above dont have that Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style to fall back on.

if alchemy was able to spike up dropped potions - make them as good as crafted pots - then drop pots would go up in value and use and crafted would go down.

Same thing for drops vs crafteds.

From my experience as a crafter in ESO - there is very little money in crafting equip sets. Any "value" comes from the mats used (which are now pretty ubiquitous), the quality tokens spent or the style token/motif-rarity. More reliable money in larger amounts can be gained from selling consumables either crafted or materials. So a "not right-click imperial style" conversion deal for drop sets would make crafters a lot of money - but it would finish off crafted sets or come pretty close IMO as their last and only unique feature becomes non-unique. I joked above - at that point remove the equipment from the crafting lines and rename them to "Alterations."

So, if you want the primary goal of the crafted skill equipment lines to be "make money" then sure, go win-win for the gold with drop set motif change.

But if you want them to be - like the consumable crafting skills are - vital crafters for the whole game and not just the cosmetically minded - then its a good idea to not give away the last cow on the farm and hope another herd wanders by later maybe sometime.

IMO
YMMV
yahdee yahdee

It's a simple topic and none of that other mess
Today if someone has the Imperial addition they can convert certain drops (not sets) to imperial.

Ppl want to be able to customize the look of dropped sets.

Yes or no (exclude all your other comments cause that not even what the OP is about. You've derailed the thread for no reason

STEVIL · January 2017

No

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's a simple topic and none of that other mess
Today if someone has the Imperial addition they can convert certain drops (not sets) to imperial.

Ppl want to be able to customize the look of dropped sets.

Yes or no (exclude all your other comments cause that not even what the OP is about. You've derailed the thread for no reason

I wonder what forums you normally frequent where you think its your place to tell other what to post or not post or whether responding to a direct statement made to someone is appropriate for them to do or not.

keeps reminding me of those "x needs y buff" threads where frequently the pro-buff posters keep trying to limit the discussion to the narrow focused cropped snap-shot they want to keep in the forefront.

Was it yesterday when someone was saying when comparing two active skills on different classes that "passives should be excluded from the discussion" in their view when how the different passives changed the net results was brought up. maybe day before, not sure, but they were just as adamant about not letting those other considerations in.

DocFrost72 · January 2017

Yes

I think that it might be a hint that if 95% of a forum poll answrrs one way, we can assume it'll be positively recieved on drop day.*

*No law of popularity ever applies to ability or item nerfs.