PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

itscompton · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

Radiant Oppression - The problem with RO has never been the range of it. Those who complain about that don't understand the difference between ranged and melee dps. Mag Sorcs sit at the back of groups spamming Curse until they get free Frags. Bowtards stay a mile away sniping and Magplars stay at the back casting. Add to that the facts that Magplars have hard casts, we have zero mobility AND we snare ourselves to cast those long spells. We pretty much have no choice but to stay ranged to be effective. And BTW, DK's quit complaining that we spam beams at you, it's the only thing we can do that doesn't get reflected back at us. The goal is to kill you not ourselves.

The 21% nerf is simply a lazy, knee jerk reaction. The real answer to making it right is to make the execute kick in at 30 - 35 percent health (as ALL executes should do) rather than 50% health and to cut the bonus execute damage to 300% rather than 330%.

Breath of Life - Remember a few months ago when ZOS brought up the subject of "smart heals" in their patch notes? BoL is not one of the smart ones. It's ridiculous that I have to run myself out of magicka just to get 1 or 2 of my own heals to land on me. If it was truly smart, it'd prioritize the caster, then the group/raid and lastly people outside the group/raid.

Dark Flare - Everything about this spell is great except the self snare while casting and that it has to orbit the moons a few times on its way to the target. Seriously, at max range it can take 4 or 5 seconds to hit the target from the time when you begin the cast. Just give the projectile the same trajectory and speed as Frags and remove the self snare.

Blazing Spear - In a game FULL of skills that have secondary knockdowns and stuns... And in which we can be snared, rooted, stunned, disoriented, knocked down, silenced and feared ALL AT THE SAME TIME, you decided that Blazing Spear was the culprit? Seriously? Of all the CC problems in this game, Blazing Spear is at the very bottom of that particular barrel full of bummers. Just revert it back to the way it was and focus on the real CC problems.

Jabs - Both morphs of Jabs have the potential to do decent damage and to be effective in rotations. Even though the cost is very high, I actually think it's probably about where it should be if we weren't casting at air. As it is now, at least 1/2 of the ticks simply miss our intended targets because the spell has no target. Make the spell a targeted one and make it apply the snare on the first tick rather than the last one.

The range is and always has been the problem of Radiant Destruction. The Risk/Reward for the skill is completely out of whack with 40+m range in PvP where Templars can sit behind their zerg, pick a target, and start beaming. You of all people should know this.

Also, LOL at your Dark Flare suggestions. Are you seriously recommending they speed up the projectile and remove the self snare on this? I've hit people with 17k Dark Flares in PvP. That's practically a 1 shot. And it procs and AoE Major Defile. This is one of the strongest single-target skills in the game. It doesn't need a buff.

How close to God mode do you want Magplar to be? It's arguably the strongest magicka class already.

Completely agree here. Actually, I almost never disagree with @Kilandros.

Magicka Templar is probably the most versatile spec in ESO.

40m ranged, undodgeable, double-scaled execute? Lol people get real.

I swear people that complain about RO'a damage have never used it in PvP. My Magplar has 35K max magic and spell damage at 4K when buffed yet RO is still shrugged off as merely a tickle by 9 out of 10 players I use it on; unless they are already so low on health just about anything I hit them with would finish them off. Ticks on the average player above 10% health are usually somewhere in the range of 1500-2500 per second.
It's utterly ridiculous people complain about this yet stam classes have multiple abilities they can get in your face and spam for upwards of 6k per second. All a stam player has to do to absolutely crush my Magplar (with 30K health+27K physical resist and 3k crit resist) is use something that gives them immovable (or cc break for 7 seconds of immunity) so I can't CC them and then get right up on me circling around spamming Dizzying swing + Executioner/Reverse slice. This makes most of my punturing sweeps miss and nothing else I cast can come close to the DPS the stam player is hitting me with. When this happens I can't get away since Temps have no type of escape ability and my 10K stam is gone with 3-4 blocked attacks. So then I'm stuck spamming Honor the Dead since it's the only heal I have that comes close to the damage I'm taking. But even with the morph giving magic back I still run out of magic to heal myself long before the stam player runs out of resources to finish me.

itscompton · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

And now about resource returns - as you can see on screen of morphs - Luminous grant 185 more stamina/magicka return over 10 sec duration after synnergizing skill. It means for 10 seconds duration it grant ally an additional 37 stamina/magicka regeneration. Sorry, but I just refuse to see how 37 more stamina/magicka regen is counted near as "more resources". For this reason morph still much weaker.

You're reading the tooltip of resource return wrong then.
It's 1875 over 10 seconds, NOT 185 over 10 seconds. That is a good amount of regen.

If they fix Luminous CC, it will be decent. (I say decent because it's the hardest CC to land relative to other CCs.)

Question is - will they?

I indeed misclicked one number and made small mistake with math 1875-1700=175, not 185. But sadly this is only mistake in my post.
Feature of Luminous is more resource returns, so check on my screenshot how big difference in synnergy restore between morphs: Blazing - 1700, Luminous - 1875. Difference is only 175 mag/stamina. converting it to most wide-spreaded comparable format of "regeneration" make it equal 35 stamina/mana regeneration. Well, 35 is even worse than 37 but still this "more resources" feature is irrelevant, and this one of reasons why Blazing overperform.

Blazing provides no magicka return Cinbri.

I pointed it out already several times, so... Morph grant you literally 35 stamina/magicka more than other morph. Once again - I don't see how 35 mana regeneration could be relevant in this game. This additional mana won't allow you to even cast 1 BoL...

You are misreading.

Blazing Spear: 25% stamina and 1700 stamina over 10 seconds
Luminous Shards: 25% stamina and 1875 stamina AND MAGICKA over 10 seconds.

Your math is missing the most important part of the equation here. That being BS/LS both = ZERO resources for the Templar casting them since we can't activate our own synergy. Thus resource returns are a moot point in PvP.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

If Templar is suppose to lack mobility and defend their house, they need to rework some skills for melee range stamina and melee range crowd control.

StamPlars need improvements and Templar should have more melee range cc.

usmcjdking · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

To all the people suggesting BoL have a frontal search pattern (I imagine you mean like Combat Prayer) - then please tell me how will it be better than said Combat Prayer/Blessing of Restoration?

Good question.

If this is so awesome sauce then why isn't CP/BOP spammed over BOL anyways? Because it's not idiot proof, Mer.

Ishammael · January 2017

itscompton wrote: »

I swear people that complain about RO'a damage have never used it in PvP.

I have a templar and have played it extensively in PvP.
I laugh every time I beam someone from across the battlefield.

itscompton wrote: »

My Magplar has 35K max magic and spell damage at 4K when buffed yet RO is still shrugged off as merely a tickle by 9 out of 10 players I use it on; unless they are already so low on health just about anything I hit them with would finish them off. Ticks on the average player above 10% health are usually somewhere in the range of 1500-2500 per second.
It's utterly ridiculous people complain about this yet stam classes have multiple abilities they can get in your face and spam for upwards of 6k per second. All a stam player has to do to absolutely crush my Magplar (with 30K health+27K physical resist and 3k crit resist) is use something that gives them immovable (or cc break for 7 seconds of immunity) so I can't CC them and then get right up on me circling around spamming Dizzying swing + Executioner/Reverse slice. This makes most of my punturing sweeps miss and nothing else I cast can come close to the DPS the stam player is hitting me with. When this happens I can't get away since Temps have no type of escape ability and my 10K stam is gone with 3-4 blocked attacks. So then I'm stuck spamming Honor the Dead since it's the only heal I have that comes close to the damage I'm taking. But even with the morph giving magic back I still run out of magic to heal myself long before the stam player runs out of resources to finish me.

The rest of this is completely nonsensical.

Neoauspex · January 2017

Thal wrote: »

Not to put words into anyone's mouths, but I believe Gilliam said the dual wield passive is no longer working for magic damage. Any word if that's an intended change or something that snuck through in PTS1?

Where did you see that? All I've seen is this:

Increased the Dual Wield Weapon and Spell Damage penalty by roughly 3%. Weapon and Spell Damage while Dual Wielding (without modifiers) is now equal to using a Two Handed weapon.

technohic · January 2017

There's a lot of cheese to RD that range makes worse and no damage will fix. Spamming hoping for that killing blow essentially giving the target about 50% health to use while in the back is one. Another I admit to using is I will spam it on NB ganjers to keep them from cloaking away. 20 m range would be enough and reducing the execute range from 50 to 30% would help and fixing NB cloak (probably with some trade offs to keep them from being able to cloak and kill so quickly out of stealth) would resolve the rest.

Also; using it for procs but that goes for lightning staff and dots as well and is a proc problem more than a Templar one.

Lore_lai · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

To all the people suggesting BoL have a frontal search pattern (I imagine you mean like Combat Prayer) - then please tell me how will it be better than said Combat Prayer/Blessing of Restoration?

Good question.

If this is so awesome sauce then why isn't CP/BOP spammed over BOL anyways? Because it's not idiot proof, Mer.

I'm pretty sure it *is* used in a larger/medium group scenario. Combat prayer provides really good utility on top of the heal it offers for multiple people.
In those groups people also spam Healing Springs. Heck - I've seen healing Springs spam in small organized groups too, depending on what the encounter is - like a very static/stacked fight.
My point was that if you make BoL into that - it would be pointless. Heals are strong enough to not warrant the need for BoL burst in that case, and the very good utility of Combat Prayer would override the need for it. Especially now that Focused healing was replaced with Sacred Ground passive so Combat Prayer gets the benefit from it too (Major Mending).

Heals like BoL (Healing Ward and the Twilight Heal too<-- BTW this one ignores LoS) have their uses in certain scenarios, especially in fast-paced encounters (PvP and PvE alike - I'd love to see how Rakkhat would be healed without BoL or a target-only BoL, on Meteors or Lunar phase), and if you remove that utility then, IMO, the skill is pointless.

I guess my main point is that the combat is too action-based to not have heals that behave like BoL. Especially if your group has to reposition a lot and is not one big blob of healing springs spam.

Paraflex · January 2017

BOL serves a good purpose as a smart heal that targets low health players. Fights like Rakkhat and PvP are very hectic and players are all over the place....healers don't have time to single target healing springs players.

Totes-Bode · January 2017

Could there be an animation effect or some visual clue to show that an enemy has been afflicted with Magicasteal or Lifesteal?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Thal wrote: »

Not to put words into anyone's mouths, but I believe Gilliam said the dual wield passive is no longer working for magic damage. Any word if that's an intended change or something that snuck through in PTS1?

Where did you see that? All I've seen is this:

Increased the Dual Wield Weapon and Spell Damage penalty by roughly 3%. Weapon and Spell Damage while Dual Wielding (without modifiers) is now equal to using a Two Handed weapon.

Dual swords is still the best damage for ablitys, this guy tested it earlier in this threat here-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3661655/#Comment_3661655

Nazarousb14_ESO · January 2017

Crafted several legendary items with out set bonuses, 2 swords, lightning staff, and fire staff and tested general fpuncturing sweeps damage on both staves it was running 5100 damage per tick with apparently no bonus from the staves passives being added. Then the swords was running 5600 per tick.

The new staves passives ether does not work with sweeps or the dual weld spell power bonus, even with the 3% penalty is greatly out performing staves.

usmcjdking · January 2017

Lore_lai wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Lore_lai wrote: »

To all the people suggesting BoL have a frontal search pattern (I imagine you mean like Combat Prayer) - then please tell me how will it be better than said Combat Prayer/Blessing of Restoration?

Good question.

If this is so awesome sauce then why isn't CP/BOP spammed over BOL anyways? Because it's not idiot proof, Mer.

I'm pretty sure it *is* used in a larger/medium group scenario. Combat prayer provides really good utility on top of the heal it offers for multiple people.
In those groups people also spam Healing Springs. Heck - I've seen healing Springs spam in small organized groups too, depending on what the encounter is - like a very static/stacked fight.
My point was that if you make BoL into that - it would be pointless. Heals are strong enough to not warrant the need for BoL burst in that case, and the very good utility of Combat Prayer would override the need for it. Especially now that Focused healing was replaced with Sacred Ground passive so Combat Prayer gets the benefit from it too (Major Mending).

Heals like BoL (Healing Ward and the Twilight Heal too<-- BTW this one ignores LoS) have their uses in certain scenarios, especially in fast-paced encounters (PvP and PvE alike - I'd love to see how Rakkhat would be healed without BoL or a target-only BoL, on Meteors or Lunar phase), and if you remove that utility then, IMO, the skill is pointless.

I guess my main point is that the combat is too action-based to not have heals that behave like BoL. Especially if your group has to reposition a lot and is not one big blob of healing springs spam.

My pleasure chatting with one of the single best, difficult to kill, call-out-to-zone-chat-to-zerg-them-down-with-gap-closer-spam, magplars to ever grace ESO PVP.

CP/BOP is used, but it is more often used as a preemptive buff than a sustain skill because when zergs collide, havoc ensues and you want to mash the idiot proof heal to ensure people who have gotten themselves into precarious situations get healed without having any situational knowledge of who they are or where they are. PVP in every other game requires you to actually select, target or choose the approrpriate vector at the minimum when healing allies. Powerful heals like BOL come at significant drawbacks (monster resource cost, cast time, cooldown) or which BOL has no real weakness

I understand your concern over complications with the way healing ward and twilight act. Twilight is HIGHLY conditional (eg must be alive) whereas BOL is not although instituting LOS restrictions on it seems fair. Healing ward is arguably more effective at saving a struggling ally (be it they are competent) than BOL is, but is run at the cost of having an equipped resto staff which is pretty much asking to be spambushed.

But BOL is not really THE problem, it is one of the terrible symptoms of THE problem. Talentless, skilless, AOE stacking. Because the current meta is button mash undodgeable, unblockable, no-target-required skills, BOL is a staple heal to ensure that healers can actually respond to the ridiculousness of not even being able to determine who will take damage to begin with.

So it's not that I don't agree with you, or even don't care about your perspective. I absolutely do, but it doesn't discount that BOL in of itself is an extraordinarily potent heal with ridiculous targetting capabilities that needs to be reigned in so a clearer picture of combat design for PVP can be established.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2017

Nazarousb14_ESO wrote: »

Crafted several legendary items with out set bonuses, 2 swords, lightning staff, and fire staff and tested general fpuncturing sweeps damage on both staves it was running 5100 damage per tick with apparently no bonus from the staves passives being added. Then the swords was running 5600 per tick.

The new staves passives ether does not work with sweeps or the dual weld spell power bonus, even with the 3% penalty is greatly out performing staves.

Did you have the passives selected? According to this-https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3661655/#Comment_3661655- sweeps was getting buffed by lightning staffs but not to the same extent as dual swords, which is okay, cause you can't really get weave damage or sustain from swords.

Solinur · January 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for all your feedback on the Templar changes so far. Just wanted to let you all know that we do have a number of adjustments planned for next week's PTS patch, and we'll be sharing some of these changes later this week once we wrap everything up. Please continue to provide feedback and bug reports as you're able to test the class - we appreciate it!

I'm waiting in fearful anticipation...

saten · January 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for all your feedback on the Templar changes so far. Just wanted to let you all know that we do have a number of adjustments planned for next week's PTS patch, and we'll be sharing some of these changes later this week once we wrap everything up. Please continue to provide feedback and bug reports as you're able to test the class - we appreciate it!

Something nice for Stampler?

Cinbri · January 2017

1. Honor the Dead need a visual effect for mana returns. Right now fact that it is bugged is revelation for many of those who use Honor simply coz it hard to track mana returns without addons.
If not unique visual than at least add blue glowing on feet upon procing mana returns, so it would be actually visible(for compare NBs have green visual for their skills):

2. About revealing cloak - it still revealing on projectile of Sun Fire's morph - Reflective Light:

Tho, it doesn't reveal on Dark Flare anymore, however in one of the old eso lives i remember it was said that AoE revealing of this ability was intended feature to increase utility. Sad that it became unintended.

itscompton · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

I swear people that complain about RO'a damage have never used it in PvP.

I have a templar and have played it extensively in PvP.
I laugh every time I beam someone from across the battlefield.

itscompton wrote: »

My Magplar has 35K max magic and spell damage at 4K when buffed yet RO is still shrugged off as merely a tickle by 9 out of 10 players I use it on; unless they are already so low on health just about anything I hit them with would finish them off. Ticks on the average player above 10% health are usually somewhere in the range of 1500-2500 per second.
It's utterly ridiculous people complain about this yet stam classes have multiple abilities they can get in your face and spam for upwards of 6k per second. All a stam player has to do to absolutely crush my Magplar (with 30K health+27K physical resist and 3k crit resist) is use something that gives them immovable (or cc break for 7 seconds of immunity) so I can't CC them and then get right up on me circling around spamming Dizzying swing + Executioner/Reverse slice. This makes most of my punturing sweeps miss and nothing else I cast can come close to the DPS the stam player is hitting me with. When this happens I can't get away since Temps have no type of escape ability and my 10K stam is gone with 3-4 blocked attacks. So then I'm stuck spamming Honor the Dead since it's the only heal I have that comes close to the damage I'm taking. But even with the morph giving magic back I still run out of magic to heal myself long before the stam player runs out of resources to finish me.

The rest of this is completely nonsensical.

If you stand behind other people spamming RO then no, you've never actually played a Templar in PvP and your opinons are worthless.

Ashamray · January 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

1. Honor the Dead need a visual effect for mana returns. Right now fact that it is bugged is revelation for many of those who use Honor simply coz it hard to track mana returns without addons.
If not unique visual than at least add blue glowing on feet upon procing mana returns, so it would be actually visible(for compare NBs have green visual for their skills):

2. About revealing cloak - it still revealing on projectile of Sun Fire:
Tho, it doesn't reveal on Dark Flare anymore, however in one of the old eso lives i remember it was said that AoE revealing of this ability was intended feature to increase utility. Sad that it became unintended.

Reflective morph of Sun Fire also had an aoe part revealing stealth \ cloak. Did you break cloak with this morph or Vampire's bane?

Riptide · January 2017

If after all the numerous posts, in this thread and many others - that RD's issue is range rather than damage, and it goes live like that?

Then it would be obvious that feedback on this sort of stuff isn't really weighed. It is a view that has been stated by many folks, in this thread and many others throughout the forums.

Just switch damage reduction for range reduction. Listen to us.

Cinbri · January 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

1. Honor the Dead need a visual effect for mana returns. Right now fact that it is bugged is revelation for many of those who use Honor simply coz it hard to track mana returns without addons.
If not unique visual than at least add blue glowing on feet upon procing mana returns, so it would be actually visible(for compare NBs have green visual for their skills):

2. About revealing cloak - it still revealing on projectile of Sun Fire:
Tho, it doesn't reveal on Dark Flare anymore, however in one of the old eso lives i remember it was said that AoE revealing of this ability was intended feature to increase utility. Sad that it became unintended.

Reflective morph of Sun Fire also had an aoe part revealing stealth \ cloak. Did you break cloak with this morph or Vampire's bane?

Reflective morph on gif. Unmorphed and Vampire Bane working as intended. Will change initial post to be more informative.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · January 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

1. Honor the Dead need a visual effect for mana returns. Right now fact that it is bugged is revelation for many of those who use Honor simply coz it hard to track mana returns without addons.
If not unique visual than at least add blue glowing on feet upon procing mana returns, so it would be actually visible(for compare NBs have green visual for their skills):

2. About revealing cloak - it still revealing on projectile of Sun Fire's morph - Reflective Light:
Tho, it doesn't reveal on Dark Flare anymore, however in one of the old eso lives i remember it was said that AoE revealing of this ability was intended feature to increase utility. Sad that it became unintended.

Still blows my mind that radiant went from "working as intended" to a 21% nerf in one patch.

Neoauspex · January 2017

How about making Radiant Oppression do 21% (or even 50%) less damage at full range but then do full damage within 10 meters etc.

Pallio · January 2017

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

All Magplars when the great Blazing Spear nerf hits live:

All Stamplars on next patch:

Please rethink removing the only viable cc for magplars to protect their house.
And please just give Stamplars something, anything to make them less and less a mythical creature in Tamerial.

Best post yet!

NBrookus · January 2017

itscompton wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

I swear people that complain about RO'a damage have never used it in PvP.

I have a templar and have played it extensively in PvP.
I laugh every time I beam someone from across the battlefield.

If you stand behind other people spamming RO then no, you've never actually played a Templar in PvP and your opinons are worthless.

Because when you main a mag DK and find yourself on a class with a purge, a heal, both melee and ranged damage, and any execute let alone a powerful, undodgeable ranged one, it's basically a freakin' vacation. I laugh, too.

Neoauspex wrote: »

How about making Radiant Oppression do 21% (or even 50%) less damage at full range but then do full damage within 10 meters etc.

I like. Unfortunately too complicated to change at this point probably.

The flat damage nerf will probably change nothing in PvP. Even nerfing the damage on higher health targets but keeping the damage on lower health targets would probably have made dedicated beam-plars less attractive.

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

For everyone saying RO's range should be reduced rather than damage... I completely agree but I think you are all missing the intent behind the nerf. It is a PVE nerf which is why the damage rather than the range was nerfed. We can all unanimously agree that a range reduction is much more appropriate for PVP and wouldn't hurt PVE, but clearly ZOS thinks the ability is doing too much damage in PVE. You can keep repeating it over and over but I think they understand at this point (hopefully) that if they really wanted to tone it down just for PVP they would have reduced the range.

Riptide · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

For everyone saying RO's range should be reduced rather than damage... I completely agree

Excellent.

We can all unanimously agree

Excellent.

We don't have any idea what ZOS wants. They haven't communicated that. They asked for feedback.

The thread, in absence of their communication, has rambled on to debates over BOL to oujii board ideas of what ZOS wants, which noone knows, and frankly, their entire team likely doesn't either. It would be helpful if that was shared. It hasn't been.

The one single thing that might be accomplished in this feedback thread is unity. Not hypotheticals. Not devils advocate. Some semblance of practical, sensible, pragmatic unity.

Range, not damage on RD is an area that there is some real consensus.

But by all means get back to a debate about BOL and what ZOS "clearly" or "obviously" wants.

Joy_Division · January 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

How about making Radiant Oppression do 21% (or even 50%) less damage at full range but then do full damage within 10 meters etc.

This is actually a really good idea that would promote tactics with Jesus Beam. In fact, it's probably the best idea out there.

Shame Zenimax won't even try.

Ashamray · January 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

How about making Radiant Oppression do 21% (or even 50%) less damage at full range but then do full damage within 10 meters etc.

This is actually a really good idea that would promote tactics with Jesus Beam. In fact, it's probably the best idea out there.

Shame Zenimax won't even try.

More calculations aren't "the best idea out there". Simplicity is required in lagodiil. Simply reduce range - that's ok.

Lore_lai · January 2017

@usmcjdking
Heh.

At least we definitely agree that the game direction needs to change if it is to promote skill over one button mash nonsense.
The thing is - it needs to change in all aspects, not just one. Say - you can't just nerf damage (just a general example of course) but leave healing alone, or the other way around.
The overhaul needs to be across the board, not just one aspect.

@Cinbri - Reflective Light is AoE skill. In theory, it should pull people out of cloak, although I dunno if I agree that it should work like how you have shown in your .gif - I think it's fine that it should hit stealth/cloaked targets if they are next to an already revealed target that you are hitting with it though.
Lightning Heavy attack does the same thing because of its AoE component from the passive.