Endgame - What ESO lacks. (compared with WoW)

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I would KILL for raids similar to FF14'S raids.
Some trash before an actual difficult boss with tons of mechanics that are more than just BURN IT QUICKLY.

Problem is from the get-go ESO was not set up to support that.

Well i have to say Group dynamics were far more engaging in the VR content Vr 10 . when the power creep was so poorly implemented and then the CP system being so loosy goosy and un restrictive and unimagnitive created a bad dynamic. poor armor balances issues with stat caps it all went down hill to the ultra DPS centric.they had an opportunity to do something great but missed it out of bad decisions and poor post launch production.

tinythinker · December 2016

Glad to see a good number of thoughtful comments.

I think you need to have lots of content for lots of playstyles: more for RPers, more for PvPers, more for solo people, more for hardcore, more for casual, more for groups, etc., etc. The trick is implementing it the right way. People love/loved joining groups for Wrothgar bosses but Craglorn got lots of flack when it came out (and when grinding was nerfed), so if you just say people don't like grouping based on Craglorn then you would have missed the trick they figured out with Wrothgar that they then applied throughout the game with One Tamriel.

I will focus on the end-game issue here.

A variation on competitive Trials would have an edge if you had three six-player teams trying to get the highest score (trade points for speed for points for kills/small completions, or vice versa). So this could have some PvP elements to it or not.

Raids (or extended Trials) could take a page from FFXIV and ESO's own two-part group dungeons. Start a story with a trial. People could run Part One all day long if they want getting unique challenges and rewards (yes some gear but be clever about other suitable rewards, there's so much that could be woven in). Eventually add a Part Two for the next part of the area being run. That area could be run on its own all day, or, you could do Parts One and Two back to back. Hook in some buff from Part One that helps with Part Two but that isn't necessary. If that goes well leave room for a Part Three, a Part Four, etc. Tell a story. Make it modular. The individual parts would be somewhat short yet stitched together it could be quite impressive. For those who like challenges add achievements or leaderboards for individual Parts as well as running the whole thing consecutively. Since it is build-as-you-go, it doesn't have to come out all at once and you can adjust based on feedback of previously released Parts. Just keep making each installment a new revelation in the story and have some fun new mechanic or twist. Give the extended Trial its own music.

More two-part Group Dungeons, please. And give more old dungeons there part two.

nimbli · December 2016

I get what you are saying, Vaoh. Most don't end game here because there is not much end game here. "If you build it, they will come" sort of thing.

But we of the Nintendo generation (FF1 got me hooked on RPGs in when I was five....I still have the map with mobs on the back) have done our time in raids. Now we got kids and careers. Those that are newer to MMOs don't have the environment to push them to it. It's just not the thing now. Different people, different scene, interesting times.

dday3six · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I would KILL for raids similar to FF14'S raids.
Some trash before an actual difficult boss with tons of mechanics that are more than just BURN IT QUICKLY.

Problem is from the get-go ESO was not set up to support that.

Well i have to say Group dynamics were far more engaging in the VR content Vr 10 . when the power creep was so poorly implemented and then the CP system being so loosy goosy and un restrictive and unimagnitive created a bad dynamic. poor armor balances issues with stat caps it all went down hill to the ultra DPS centric.they had an opportunity to do something great but missed it out of bad decisions and poor post launch production.

I'm more referring to things like not including basic combat info at launch, or allowing too much space between low and high end player specs. That space, for example, is likely the reason for CP in it's current state. I'd hedge on ZOS having trouble developing engaging content for players that aimed at the middle but didn't alienate the low and high ends as well. So they choose to leave players with the ability use specs toward the low end by just increasing player power across the board.

BossXV · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Pibbles wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.

This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.

The reason why that player base is not here is because of Zos. Not because the player base does not exist. It's the bread and butter of any mmo.

I believe that category of player is on the decline, hence WoW subs being a mere trifle of what they once were. Not just that, but those players of that ilk who do still exist, are tied to another game through thousands of hours of play time invested, many £££ of fees paid, friends retained in game etc. So ZOS have likely said, "why battle to steal these players, while the market is shrinking and there are all these threats to business, when we can scoop up a load of casuals off the back of the TES brand?". Those of us who bothered to subscribe here are more committed, so we get frustrated with what seems like a narrow business vision, but we're a minority, most people who play ESO are not on the forums, they just dip in and out of the game.

I think we just have to accept that this is the strategy ZOS have adopted in order to compete in a saturated and hostile market, and that's that. It's not perfect and frustrates me at times, but the game is surviving.

I am not sure about that you can make a great game that has End game content and appeals to casuals Rift did it EQ2 did alot of the second Gen MMO's pulled it off, and honestly the raiding communities are very fluid . even the ultra hard core communities traverse many games . I think what the problem is the to appeal to a wider audience range and keep cost down the quality of game has been diluted in the race to make $$$$ as fast as you can.

Just before ESO went B2P they had about 600 to 700 k subs they sold 1.2 million copies little over 50% retention not great but not bad either. The community was table after the large burn off, the bleed was due to the end game being thin. those that did not like ESO spit it out immediately so right after launch the 90 days was where most of that bleed was but the second exodus was primarily ESO and the lack of content at the 9 month to 1 year mark they kept trying to artifcially extend the game along the way with more VR ranks back peddling on the Murkmire, Imperial city,TG and DB promises. ESO was doing just fine as a sub up until that point, it was the console sales that was the factor in it going B2P .

Personally i think ZOS is working on another project, ESO is in the rear view mirror and they will continue to put out small single player centric DLC's to boos their quarterly revenue. It may be your style of game Pibbles but it is not everyones cup of tea .

I would like to point out though WOW is hardly a mere trifle. WOWs projection for subs when that game launched was about 400k .believe me they were happy as pigs in poop that they went low hardware requirment and smashed EQ2 and their projections .which was half a million subscribers. at its peak EQ2 had under a million at peak. No one ever predicted MMO's would be this popular up until that point they were estatic with a few hundred thousand.Jesus EQ 1 was only projected to have 40 k and they hit 480k their second year.. WOW still has millions of subs ,at its peak it was 12 million. the reason Wows subs died in a massive chunk had very little to do with a game style. it had to do with the dilution of the market with newer MMO's coming out in rapid succession from 2008 to 2012 and asian contnients making their own AAA titles , wow being driven out of certain markets by goverment favoritism to developers of asian markets.

From what SWTOR which is rumored to have cost 50 mil more then ESO all they need was 500k subs to stay very profitable, its not victimized developers not making enough money to keep the lights on its corporate greed trying to grind out as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time.

I really hope that is not the case, that ESO is in the rear view mirror, if they are not getting the amount of players and money they want and need this may be the case...

AlnilamE · January 2017

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

I honestly wish they figured out a way to fix animation cancelling. It's stupid that you can cancel the animation of a skill and still do it's damage. But as you said, that ship has sailed. I still think it is an exploit, albeit a sanctioned one at this point. But it wasn't designed into the game intentionally.

Now tell me in all honesty: Which content in the game cannot be completed if all DPS are pulling 20k and are otherwise following the mechanics to a T?

Pulling high DPS means you can ignore mechanics at times, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely necessary to complete the content.

And I absolutely have a resto staff on my back bar. It's saved me more than once in nMoL when Rakkat goes into the air and the adds appear on the platforms because the healers are not able to heal you then. (But you probably don't know that mechanic in normal because you run with groups that burn him down before he completes the circle, right?

mb10 · January 2017

How long has ESO been out vs WoW?

What an awful comparison to compare number of dungeons lol

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

mb10 wrote: »

How long has ESO been out vs WoW?

What an awful comparison to compare number of dungeons lol

The general reality is just about every second gen Mmo at the three year mark had 2 to 3x the content, multi layered AA systems ,new starting zones, multi tiered raiding and dungeons,new races, multi layered and tiered quests with large rewards,many little side things to do collections, factions ,guild quets, a plethora of quality of life and side activities.

They did it with smaller budgets ,smaller player bases,and way harder engines to develop content. All the while expanding and enriching the mechanics and game systems

OrphanHelgen · January 2017

They are older game, and will have more content as well. All though the 40 man pve raid I believe have been from the start.

Valen_Byte · January 2017

You are hereby being fined 100CP for mentioning a child's MMO in the forum of the greatest MMO of all time. Sorry , I don't make the rules.

maboleth · January 2017

People that say that

Vaoh wrote: »

WoW is an extremely successful MMO. Though I have never played it, I'd hope someday in the future ESO could have nearly as many active players. Of course, the treatment of PvP balance and (more importantly) *game performance* has unfortunateIy crushed any hope of this ever happening.

Personally the only thing I'm struggling with in PVP are the proc sets. Because I don't use them, I rely 100% on my skills, weapon & special armour sets and I'm looking forward to see them more controlled. But there's A LOT of things to master in this game, especially the combat. People that know how to play will enjoy PVP (if they are into that anyway), others, sadly won't and will blame the game. Just how tons of people in the forums moaned when they lowered the time of the Hardened Ward, yet that didn't stop good sorcery players to continue to be good and deadly.

Sorry but i couldn't disagree more with you there. There's so many PVP flavours in this game, from quest oriented, group, tactical to IC and dueling. If that ain't your thing, so be it, but blaming ZOS for everything that isn't compatible with your needs is kind of cliched.

Sinthrax · January 2017

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Because the endgame raiding community in all mmos is at an all time low. Most of the top wow raid guilds have all disbanded as well.

While I personally would like to see more and bigger raids, eso does not have the community to warrant zenimax spending all of that time on multiple raids per year.

A very very small percentage of eso raid guilds have even cleared maw hardmode

Ya...good thing they can use that time wisely and create $45 mounts. A really large percentage of the eso community REALLY wants it. Virtual products for money are always better than more content. But zenimax can warrant spending the time to make these crown items per year.. afterall, to most people that is content.

Sinthrax · January 2017

Kolache wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

I think comparing an extraordinary successful 12 year old MMO (with more endgame content at launch than ESO currently has) to a 2-3 year old MMO which is doing worse and worse in both PvP and endgame PvE each patch is not silly at all.

lol what in the world are you talking about? Did you even play WoW at launch? The only PvP was world PvP with no rewards. The only end-game content was a couple 5-man dungeons and a broken raid that 1% of the population experienced in the 1st year. I get that you want more end-game content, just please cease this tangent of nonsense.

And even then WoW was more fun than what state ESO is in now. Who gives a rats turd about rewards. Make it fun....that is all. People will come if it is fun. The garbage that goes 0n in ESO pvp is the reason it hasnt became a bigger game. They havent a clue. ESO learned nothing from WoW. Yet WoW is chugging along.

Flynch · January 2017

The MMO demographic has changed - we've matured and gotten older. Things are more important than playing for 15 hours straight while chugging down mountain dew.

WoW is a dying/stagnating beast - it just has a lot more fat to burn through before you hit the bone. ESO is trying to innovate in a genre that is notoriously hard to succeed in. Whether is will succeed, no-one really knows. But that is contrary to this particularly contrarian thread.

Don't forget - the games are what created the 'hard-core' MMO players. Not the other way around.

And yeah, for the love of God, stop comparing games that are a decade apart in design, time-investment (player and dev) and content and using that as some sort of pivotal argument against ESO.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ESO lacks nothing, compared to WoW.

It's not WoW. Live with it, or play WoW.

Except..... endgame content.

This has nothing to do with "being WoW". WoW simply has a ton of endgame content and a massive, successful endgame community because of it.

Coincidentally, ESO has barely recieved any endgame content in the past year (beginning with near nothing as well) and the endgame community is practically dead now. PvP was neglected and now that community is almost dead as well.

You can find only a handful of guilds on a server, consisting of many of the same players, who can complete vMoL. It's not looking good at all. Content drought is a big reason for it.

Youre the one that started this whole conversation about how WoW does it better. Had you left WoW out of your OP you wouldnt be seeing these sorts of comments. WoW is 12 years old with multiple large expansions behind it. Of course it has a better selection of end-game content. To compare a 3 year old game, still maneuvering itself into what it wants to be and offer, to a game that is now a senior citizen in the industry is just asking for an argument.

Maybe a game that is 3 years old should not be confused as to what it wants to offer? How long do you think players stick around on a game like this? Had "Elder Scrolls" not been in the title it would've failed already.

Take only WoW's first expansion and you'll find that it completely tears ESO apart in terms of endgame content. That is actually a comparison in favor of ESO timewise. There is still no contest in the slightest.

Even base game WoW had more dungeons/raids than ESO currently has. When you look at the size of the endgame community in ESO compared to WoW it speaks for itself. Facts are facts. ESO is doing very poorly in endgame and WoW is doing fantastic. Releasing significantly more content than ESO does in the same timeframe is why our endgame community is almost gone now.

Maybe you need more experience with MMOs.

Plenty of MMOs, including your glorious WoW was still finding its legs 3-4 years in. Youre also confusing ESOs end-goals with WoW. WoW released when MMOs still catered to the endgame crowd. Back when subscriptions was the method of maintaining the game and adding new content. It hasnt been that way since 2007 or so. Free to Play and Buy to Play changed all of that. Casuals are now the focus. No amount of end-game content is going to change that. The idea that players wont stick around because there isnt WoW amounts of end-game is sad and obviously misinformed. ESOs playerbase has steadily grown since late into its first year. And there was even LESS end-game content then.

But obviously you have a narrative so by all means, continue on with the scare tactics. Im sure ZOS is shaking in their boots that if they dont do something about that end-game theyll lose all the players.

Scare tactics

Of course ESO grew into its first year. Content was still fresh and things were much more balanced. 2015 ESO and (soon) 2017 ESO are very, very different.

ESO does not need to release nearly as much endgame content as WoW does. They need to simply release more endgame content. There's almost nothing right now and the guilds/communities have already left.

You can believe anything you want about this tbh. We all know how big the population was compared to what it currently looks like. PvP took the biggest hit due to recent issues (1 full campaign tops per server -_-).

Apparantly I'm wrong though and ESO is thriving 7 million players! Keep believing things are great. If ZOS steps it up in 2017 they will be. Catering to pure casuals seems to be the main if not only focus though unfortunately.

Doubling down on that scare tactic. And as for population size...Are you walking through the cities with your eyes closed? Its constantly busy during peak hours. ESO + is one of PS4s top Add-Ons for all of 2016 and a good chunk of 2015. Its one of the top played games on XB1. It just received a Silver Award for top played games on Steam. The game is far from suffering the way you try to paint it so as to fit your poorly thought out narrative.

Dragonnord · January 2017

WoW graphics, those not-real-look-but-not-cartoon-look-neither-so-a-mix-of-I-don't-know-what STINK!!! Horrible! Make my puke!

ESO graphics, on the opposite, are marvellous.

So, even if WOW had 1.000.000 dungeons and ESO only one, I'd still play ESO.

Sinthrax · January 2017

CarbonX wrote: »

WoW graphics, those not-real-look-but-not-cartoon-look-neither-so-a-mix-of-I-don't-know-what STINK!!! Horrible! Make my puke!

ESO graphics, on the opposite, are marvellous.

So, even if WOW had 1.000.000 dungeons and ESO only one, I'd still play ESO.

Unfortunately, MMOs aren't about you. Its about making money. WoW does....not saying ESO doesn't but...lets not kid ourselves here. Compared to WoW, ESO is a failure. Yes, even with those graphics you described. Could it be because there is more to do? the game is fun in WoW? Wait, its only graphics that matter.

Sinthrax · January 2017

Flynch wrote: »

The MMO demographic has changed - we've matured and gotten older. Things are more important than playing for 15 hours straight while chugging down mountain dew.

WoW is a dying/stagnating beast - it just has a lot more fat to burn through before you hit the bone. ESO is trying to innovate in a genre that is notoriously hard to succeed in. Whether is will succeed, no-one really knows. But that is contrary to this particularly contrarian thread.

Don't forget - the games are what created the 'hard-core' MMO players. Not the other way around.

And yeah, for the love of God, stop comparing games that are a decade apart in design, time-investment (player and dev) and content and using that as some sort of pivotal argument against ESO.

I can't believe you would say WoW is dying. Lol. It will have to die about 10 more deaths for ESO to catch up to it. Also, where will ESO be in 10 more years. If its even still here.

dday3six · January 2017

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ESO lacks nothing, compared to WoW.

It's not WoW. Live with it, or play WoW.

Except..... endgame content.

This has nothing to do with "being WoW". WoW simply has a ton of endgame content and a massive, successful endgame community because of it.

Coincidentally, ESO has barely recieved any endgame content in the past year (beginning with near nothing as well) and the endgame community is practically dead now. PvP was neglected and now that community is almost dead as well.

You can find only a handful of guilds on a server, consisting of many of the same players, who can complete vMoL. It's not looking good at all. Content drought is a big reason for it.

Youre the one that started this whole conversation about how WoW does it better. Had you left WoW out of your OP you wouldnt be seeing these sorts of comments. WoW is 12 years old with multiple large expansions behind it. Of course it has a better selection of end-game content. To compare a 3 year old game, still maneuvering itself into what it wants to be and offer, to a game that is now a senior citizen in the industry is just asking for an argument.

Maybe a game that is 3 years old should not be confused as to what it wants to offer? How long do you think players stick around on a game like this? Had "Elder Scrolls" not been in the title it would've failed already.

Take only WoW's first expansion and you'll find that it completely tears ESO apart in terms of endgame content. That is actually a comparison in favor of ESO timewise. There is still no contest in the slightest.

Even base game WoW had more dungeons/raids than ESO currently has. When you look at the size of the endgame community in ESO compared to WoW it speaks for itself. Facts are facts. ESO is doing very poorly in endgame and WoW is doing fantastic. Releasing significantly more content than ESO does in the same timeframe is why our endgame community is almost gone now.

Maybe you need more experience with MMOs.

Plenty of MMOs, including your glorious WoW was still finding its legs 3-4 years in. Youre also confusing ESOs end-goals with WoW. WoW released when MMOs still catered to the endgame crowd. Back when subscriptions was the method of maintaining the game and adding new content. It hasnt been that way since 2007 or so. Free to Play and Buy to Play changed all of that. Casuals are now the focus. No amount of end-game content is going to change that. The idea that players wont stick around because there isnt WoW amounts of end-game is sad and obviously misinformed. ESOs playerbase has steadily grown since late into its first year. And there was even LESS end-game content then.

But obviously you have a narrative so by all means, continue on with the scare tactics. Im sure ZOS is shaking in their boots that if they dont do something about that end-game theyll lose all the players.

Scare tactics

Of course ESO grew into its first year. Content was still fresh and things were much more balanced. 2015 ESO and (soon) 2017 ESO are very, very different.

ESO does not need to release nearly as much endgame content as WoW does. They need to simply release more endgame content. There's almost nothing right now and the guilds/communities have already left.

You can believe anything you want about this tbh. We all know how big the population was compared to what it currently looks like. PvP took the biggest hit due to recent issues (1 full campaign tops per server -_-).

Apparantly I'm wrong though and ESO is thriving 7 million players! Keep believing things are great. If ZOS steps it up in 2017 they will be. Catering to pure casuals seems to be the main if not only focus though unfortunately.

Doubling down on that scare tactic. And as for population size...Are you walking through the cities with your eyes closed? Its constantly busy during peak hours. ESO + is one of PS4s top Add-Ons for all of 2016 and a good chunk of 2015. Its one of the top played games on XB1. It just received a Silver Award for top played games on Steam. The game is far from suffering the way you try to paint it so as to fit your poorly thought out narrative.

Not that it means glum and doom, but the caveat is that if you look at the top dlcs on console they're mostly the type to be re-used over and over like subs and freemium game currency. Who are stacked by their nature to appear on those kind of lists because userstend to download them over and over more consistently than other types of dlcs.

Sinthrax · January 2017

mb10 wrote: »

How long has ESO been out vs WoW?

What an awful comparison to compare number of dungeons lol

Ok, add the amount of dungeons WoW added in the first 2-3 years of existence compared to ESO. For that matter just go content period. Keep in mind, only the first 2-3 years. It is a very good comparision of where ESO should be close to in 10 years. At this rate....lol...well, you get the picture.

Julianos · January 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Everything here is based on research I did on WoW. If I got some facts wrong please let me know. Pretty sure it's all sadly accurate.

WoW is an extremely successful MMO. Though I have never played it, I'd hope someday in the future ESO could have nearly as many active players. Of course, the treatment of PvP balance and (more importantly) *game performance* has unfortunateIy crushed any hope of this ever happening. One thing that has come to my attention though recently was the sheer amount of group content in WoW - specifically Dungeons and Raids (aka Trials).

Upon doing some research, I found some shocking facts about WoW's PvE endgame compared to ESO.

This is with regards to just how many Dungeons and Raids you can run in both ESO and WoW.

ESO
Base Game + everything up until the first purchaseable DLC: 16 Dungeons (half have Tier I & II versions), 3 Raids
Imperial City: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Orsinium: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Thieves Guild: 0 Dungeons, 1 Raid
Dark Brotherhood: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Shadows of the Hist: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Total - 20 Dungeons (28 if counting duplicate dungeons via Tier I & II), 4 Raids

WoW
Classic: 20 Dungeons, 5 Raids (more than current ESO)
The Burning Crusade: 16 Dungeons, 8 Raids
Wrath of the Lich King: 16 Dungeons, 9 Raids
Cataclysm: 14 Dungeons, 6 Raids
Mists of Pandaria: 9 Dungeons, 5 Raids, 18 scenarios
Warlords of Draenor: 8 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Legion: 11 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Total - 94 Dungeons, 39 Raids

They also use different player counts for group content.....

In ESO:
Dungeons: 4 players
Raids(Trials): 12 players

In WoW:
Scenarios: 3 players
Dungeons: 5 players
Raids(Trials):
10 players only (two raids)
25 players only (seven raids)
10 or 25 players (nineteen raids)
10-30 player w/ scaling based on amount of players (four raids)
40 player (three raids)

I fully understand that WoW has been out much longer than ESO..... but why is ESO so lacking on endgame content!? This is not due to how much longer WoW has been out, but rather the pacing of ESO launching endgame content. We have 4 raids and the fifth is likely coming with our future Vvardenfell DLC, due late 2017 or even farther. In other words, we will have 5 raids (if not still 4) in ESO at the end of 2017.

On top of this, WoW has included all of their expansions (each of which are larger than all of ESO's DLC combined) into the base game for free except for the most recent "Legion" expansion. Sometime when the next expansion releases, they will undoubtedly make Legion part of base game WoW as well. ESO will never do something like this with their DLC.

..... I guess the point of this post is this - why is ESO so ridiculously slow at releasing endgame group content? This is why the player count is far smaller right now than it ever should've been. ZOS crippled game performance (most notably in PvP) and forced the endgame for most players into PvE since PvP turned into a mess.

We have only 4 Raids and they're all too unrewarding for most players to bother with. The Group Dungeons are all easy for endgame players except maybe some of the DLC dungeons. You also lose gold when you run Trials because there's no BoE loot and you need to chug Potions throughout your runs. How can ESO's raid content maintain a healthy endgame playerbase when there's so little of it and it serves as a gold sink?

Looking up the content WoW contains has definitely put ESO's endgame in perspective for me. The base game was perfect in terms of content, but since then there has been a miniscule amount of effort put into endgame. I can think of tons of good players I know who would've never quit if even a quarter of the amount of dungeons/raids were released to ESO in the same timespan that WoW releases them.

Please tell me I am missing somethimg huge in all of this. As far as I'm concerned, ESO would do amazingly well if it had 4x the current amount of dungeons and 10x the amount of trials including those with 2-3x the amount of players in them.

I love ESO, but it's no secret how poorly the endgame community is doing. Trials are as empty as the PvP population now due to lack of content and incentive. Personally, endgame PvE is all that's left for me. Please revive the endgame community and revise your policy of 2-4 dungeons/1 trial (max) per year. Add more and be serious about endgame to guarantee some longetivity for ESO. The "Elder Scrolls" name can only carry this game so much farther when content runs unbelievably dry and PvP is painfully neglected.

....that is all

I played wow for 10 years even wow quests and story better than eso as a whole game. No need to compare dungeons or pve

I cannot describe with words how much fun i had in wow.

Same feeling with Ultima online when i was a kid.

Those 2 games you cannot compare with other games.

Thats why i always complain about eso i guess.

idk · January 2017

@Vaoh

While you are correct that ESO has not even come close to keeping up with the major MMOs your comparison is not accurate.

Comparing an MMO that has been out for just under 3 years to an MMO that has been out for 12 years will obviously show the 12 year MMO has significantly more content and it shoulld.

Second, group numbers for content is not relevant. There are different group numbers in different MMOs and it has no real bearing. If anything, larger numbers is harder to obtain.

I have presented the comparison of ESO to SWTOR concerning end game raiding and once April comes around ESO will have produced approximately 1.3 large group raids per year whereas SWTOR has produced 1.9 large group raids per year.

Most years SWTOR has added 2 raids where as, once April is here, Zos will have only produced one raid total across it's second and third year.

This is having an effect on the raiding community from your average raider to the more competitive groups.

Flynch · January 2017

Sinthrax wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

The MMO demographic has changed - we've matured and gotten older. Things are more important than playing for 15 hours straight while chugging down mountain dew.

WoW is a dying/stagnating beast - it just has a lot more fat to burn through before you hit the bone. ESO is trying to innovate in a genre that is notoriously hard to succeed in. Whether is will succeed, no-one really knows. But that is contrary to this particularly contrarian thread.

Don't forget - the games are what created the 'hard-core' MMO players. Not the other way around.

And yeah, for the love of God, stop comparing games that are a decade apart in design, time-investment (player and dev) and content and using that as some sort of pivotal argument against ESO.

I can't believe you would say WoW is dying. Lol. It will have to die about 10 more deaths for ESO to catch up to it. Also, where will ESO be in 10 more years. If its even still here.

Compare the numbers from launch to where it is now. I enjoyed WoW immensely when I played it - and I played it for years, so i'm not biased against either game. But the reality is that WoW is the exception to the MMO rule, through fine timing and a more casual-centric accessiblity (compared to EQ2 for instance) and there are far more games on the market now than there were back then.

Most of the guys I know who still log onto WoW just do so to finish their dailies etc but don't tend to invest as much time as they did in WoW's hay-day.

It's ok if you prefer WoW to ESO. But to compare the two is simply wrong.

Liofa · January 2017

AlnilamE wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

I honestly wish they figured out a way to fix animation cancelling. It's stupid that you can cancel the animation of a skill and still do it's damage. But as you said, that ship has sailed. I still think it is an exploit, albeit a sanctioned one at this point. But it wasn't designed into the game intentionally.

Now tell me in all honesty: Which content in the game cannot be completed if all DPS are pulling 20k and are otherwise following the mechanics to a T?

Pulling high DPS means you can ignore mechanics at times, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely necessary to complete the content.

And I absolutely have a resto staff on my back bar. It's saved me more than once in nMoL when Rakkat goes into the air and the adds appear on the platforms because the healers are not able to heal you then. (But you probably don't know that mechanic in normal because you run with groups that burn him down before he completes the circle, right?

I think , you can complete anything with 20k DPS . It is all possible . No one is stopping anyone . BUT , I have never seen a group that does 20k DPS completing vMoL HM , or even vMoL non-hard mode . We had people doing that much DPS but we only managed to kill Rakkhat because others were carrying that person .

As I said , it is not necessary to pull high DPS . It makes things easier , faster and more comfortable . If you like pain though , it is a good road to follow . Try to understand the difference between ''I completed vMoL by doing 20k DPS'' and ''I completed vMoL by doing 35k DPS as a runner'' . What makes me mad is people thinking ''if I can complete x content with 20k DPS , I don't need more , so I don't need to improve'' .

I did complete Lunar Phase in nMoL and vMoL several times and reading what you said about ''healers not being able to heal'' proves that I know that mechanic more than you do . We also did complete vMoL HM but we burned it , because we had high DPS . And Lunar Phase is a pain and things get even harder after Lunar Phase is complete . We saved ourselves from unnecessary trouble with having good players with high DPS . Well , of course dealing with Dreadstalkers after Lunar Phase is done is totally possible . Is it harder ? Yes . Is it necessary to deal with them ? No . See ? It is as simple as that .

Learn mechanics and slot a damage shield instead of Restoration Staff . This is what best DDs that are at the top of leaderboards are doing and they do it because of reasons you seem not to understand . Let's just make a quick comparison . We did hardest content in the game (nuking Rakkhat in HM without Lunar Phase) thanks to magicka DDs not having Resto and having something else instead (dual wield or another destro in this case) that makes a huge difference in DPS . And you saved yourself in nMoL thanks to Restoration Staff because you don't know how to do mechanics . See the difference ? Even after this , if you still think Restoration Staff is better , well , that is your choice . As I said , no one is stopping anyone .

Note : Please don't wink at people unless you know what you say is a fact . It makes you look bad .

Dragonnord · January 2017

Sinthrax wrote: »

Compared to WoW, ESO is a failure.

LOL! WoW was released in 2004, ESO was released in 2014. You are comparing a game that has 2 years against one that has 12 and say ESO is a failure? Don't make me laugh. Let's talk again in 10 years, when TESO has 12, and see where both are. Probably WoW forgotten in oblivion while ESO still live with even better realistic graphics and not those pathetic drawings WoW has.

Comparing a 2-year game against a 12-year one. My God!!! Like if anyone knows what ESO developers have in mind for us in the future.

Delpi · January 2017

I played Wow in the past. When I came to ESO I really liked that you can clear a dungeon in 10-20 minutes. In wow dungeons you spend too much time. I remember the lich expansion.. 6 hours to finish a raid if everything was ok... lol

jaye63 · January 2017

Dear OP:

If you're comparing ESO to WoW then you obviously should be playing WoW. I dont want this game to be ANYTHING like WoW. I tried it and I hated it. WoW is WoW and ESO is ESO. I bought ESO because I have adored the franchise. Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and now Tamriel. I get enough KungFu Panda from my kid watching it on Disney. I am completely uninterested in playing a WoW clone. Stop it!

Vaoh · January 2017

jaye63 wrote: »

Dear OP:

If you're comparing ESO to WoW then you obviously should be playing WoW. I dont want this game to be ANYTHING like WoW. I tried it and I hated it. WoW is WoW and ESO is ESO. I bought ESO because I have adored the franchise. Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and now Tamriel. I get enough KungFu Panda from my kid watching it on Disney. I am completely uninterested in playing a WoW clone. Stop it!

Lmao. It's sad how many comments like this have appeared. People don't like to read.

I want ESO to be nothing like WoW. However, I'd like ESO to release at least a fraction of the sheer amount of content that WoW does within the same timeframe they've done it.

Take everything ESO has added since launch in terms of new content, and compare it to the first WoW expansion. You'll notice a stark contrast in endgame content in specific.

Nothing about this thread says "Make ESO like WoW!" It just compares ESO to probably the most successful MMO and shows a very interesting reason for it. Coincidentally WoW has a massive endgame PvE community while ESO has an extremely frail and nearly dead endgame PvE community (likely even worse than our PvP population).

jaye63 · January 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Dear OP:

If you're comparing ESO to WoW then you obviously should be playing WoW. I dont want this game to be ANYTHING like WoW. I tried it and I hated it. WoW is WoW and ESO is ESO. I bought ESO because I have adored the franchise. Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and now Tamriel. I get enough KungFu Panda from my kid watching it on Disney. I am completely uninterested in playing a WoW clone. Stop it!

Lmao. It's sad how many comments like this have appeared. People don't like to read.

I want ESO to be nothing like WoW. However, I'd like ESO to release at least a fraction of the sheer amount of content that WoW does within the same timeframe they've done it.

Take everything ESO has added since launch in terms of new content, and compare it to the first WoW expansion. You'll notice a stark contrast in endgame content in specific.

Nothing about this thread says "Make ESO like WoW!" It just compares ESO to probably the most successful MMO and shows a very interesting reason for it. Coincidentally WoW has a massive endgame PvE community while ESO has an extremely frail and nearly dead endgame PvE community (likely even worse than our PvP population).

Oh I read it. And Im sick of WoW dropouts trying to add WoW to other MMOs. Go look at EQ, LotRO, DDO, Rift or any other MMO forum and you will see people comparing WoW to that game and wanting WoW feature in that game. NO NO NO NO NO! WoW sucks. Dont compare it to this game. Dont add WoW or WoW like features to this game. In fact, Dont even discuss WoW in any proximity to ESO. If you long for WoW features or styles... go back to WoW. PERIOD. You can repeat what you just said over and over and over til one of us dies and it will not detract from the fact that any comparison is a nostalgic yearning to play WoW.

I'm sick of great games being destroyed because they let the WoWbots talk them into crap that is not part of the idea of their respective game. NO!! Again... If this game starts looking and feeling like WoW, I'll spend my money elsewhere. Done it before and I'll do it again.

Vaoh · January 2017

jaye63 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Dear OP:

If you're comparing ESO to WoW then you obviously should be playing WoW. I dont want this game to be ANYTHING like WoW. I tried it and I hated it. WoW is WoW and ESO is ESO. I bought ESO because I have adored the franchise. Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim and now Tamriel. I get enough KungFu Panda from my kid watching it on Disney. I am completely uninterested in playing a WoW clone. Stop it!

Lmao. It's sad how many comments like this have appeared. People don't like to read.

I want ESO to be nothing like WoW. However, I'd like ESO to release at least a fraction of the sheer amount of content that WoW does within the same timeframe they've done it.

Take everything ESO has added since launch in terms of new content, and compare it to the first WoW expansion. You'll notice a stark contrast in endgame content in specific.

Nothing about this thread says "Make ESO like WoW!" It just compares ESO to probably the most successful MMO and shows a very interesting reason for it. Coincidentally WoW has a massive endgame PvE community while ESO has an extremely frail and nearly dead endgame PvE community (likely even worse than our PvP population).

Oh I read it. And Im sick of WoW dropouts trying to add WoW to other MMOs....

..... Dont even discuss WoW in any proximity to ESO. If you long for WoW features or styles... go back to WoW. PERIOD. You can repeat what you just said over and over and over til one of us dies and it will not detract from the fact that any comparison is a nostalgic yearning to play WoW.

Claims to read my posts.....

....then claims I'm a WoW player trying to bring WoW into ESO, despite my main post explicitly stating I've never played WoW or have the intention to.

Some people here are thought-provokingly dumb. Read the main post rather than comment like you have PTSD over WoW. It's hilarious, but also getting sad to continue reading now.