Endgame - What ESO lacks. (compared with WoW)

miteba

When we make some s### we have an tendency to say: But that one did worst than me

My mother/father always teached me: Follow the good examples!

I never played WOW either, like @Vaoh, but i think it is widely believed that is the best MMO ever, so you dont lose anything by compare and evaluate, learn and apply some good examples... not copy them, but use the knowhow to improve with criativity.

When a topic is created to help improving ESO, it has always my appreciation...
...and ZOS should have too, since some devs publicly say that they hear the community but 60% of their actions prove otherwise! (a little pinch )

Doctordarkspawn

It does not take a genius to see why WoW succeeds and this game fails, buisness models nonwithstanding, purely from a design perspective.

In WoW, a classes abilities unlocked slowly flow. The game gives you time to get used to said ability, and how it factors into a rotation. In this game, what is an effective setup for endgame content and the search for it, is often about as much work as building the bare bones basics of a game on it's own. While WoW's combat requires you to know your rotation up to that point, this game requires you only to know how to hold down a button and use potions, and this is not even remotely prep for high end PVE.

WoW does difficulty, design, optimization better. This game could do with taking more than a few pages out of WoW's book. In fact, it could do with outright stealing it. How WoW does scaling difficulties, how WoW does classes, how it does class -design-, how it does dungeon design. The problem is this game has no identity, and no aim, and even if it's just copy paste, some *** direction would do it good.

Terror

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Because the endgame raiding community in all mmos is at an all time low. Most of the top wow raid guilds have all disbanded as well.

While I personally would like to see more and bigger raids, eso does not have the community to warrant zenimax spending all of that time on multiple raids per year.

A very very small percentage of eso raid guilds have even cleared maw hardmode

That's because vMoL HM is extremely difficult. Only the very best players will ever beat it.

Our lack of a decent-sized endgame community is due to the lack of content. That I can assure you. Why would so many stick around when 1 new trial has been released in over a year? ESO is not making itself out to be a great PvP game (terrible PvP performance+balance) or PvE game (no new content at all+bad performance in trials).

I looked to WoW out of curiosity and found 10x the Raids -_- prompted me to create this thread...

I'm not arguing that there isn't a lack of content. But as someone who has raided in many mmos, the mmo raiding community is dead. That breed of mmo player is gone and there aren't enough of them left to sustain raid development.

I'm not trying to offend you, but saying only the best raiders can clear maw hm shows that you don't really understand the problem. Would you expect new raids to not be difficult? Compared to other games, maw hardmode is not that difficult. There are many guilds just skipping the fights main mechanic through dpsing rakkhat quick enough. Hell I've seen guilds burn him on their very first clear. Other mmos such as wow, aion etc have raids that take months/over a year to clear by players that are sponsored and play the game for a living.

Sorry but you don't really seem to know what you are talking about. I was guild and raid leader of a top 300 guild until about 2 months ago when I was invited to join the US 2nd guild. (Rank 44 for my class at the end of the last expansion.)
No raid in WoW has taken over a year to clear, and very few have even taken more than a couple of weeks. Blood Legion was the only guild ever seriously sponsored in any form to raid, they disband early last expansion.
Also to your point of saying that the raid community is dead is simply untrue, take a look at the raid activity in WoW since the initial Legion announcement. The amount of raiding guilds surged into an all time high, everyone and their grandmother suddenly wanted to raid, people who hadn't played the game in a decade came back to start raiding, I was on US-Illidan at the time and we had a massive population increase in the raiding community. The raiding community is very much still alive, it's just waiting for something to come along that is sustainable and fun.

The reason you are seeing Hardcore raid teams quit is because these players have been doing it for many years, at which point raiding at the top level becomes problematic as the leader's and officers of these guild inevitable have life changes which conflict with putting their life on hold to cater to the needs of a guild group.
Add in the new Legion systems like artifact power, mythic+, and legendary farming plus the development of split runs, and the naturally progressive nature of gaming, when you are in competition for top guild positions and there is always something someone can do more, pit against thousands of other guilds, it becomes tiresome, stressful, and never ending (especially when you feel the same time requirements per character and are required to maintain 3-5 characters.). Naturally a person can only handle so much. The new direction of WoW has players who used to commit 8 hours a day to stay ahead of the curve are now putting in 20 hour days...

Now, take all that and add to the fact that recruitment never ends, raid planning never ends because there is always PTR testing and another raid around the corner, then you have to do your weekly clears (consisting of 5 full raid instance clears per week in itself which is around 15 hours or gameplay in itself.)

Your talking about a role that has become an endless process with Legion's launch and their current patch plan, they have overloaded the hardcore raid scene in an attempt to break it. Ion H. has said his self that the hardcore raiding scene was never supposed to exist as it does today and they are trying to discourage players from playing in such a way and move WoW away from it because the game was never designed to support it.

The raiders are still around, and most are becoming more casual, which does not agree with the guild name, therefore the guild quits as a whole or the raiders step down themselves. Unfortunately, once you become accustomed to raiding like that, for most it is hard to go to a group doing anything less, because you know personally how much better a group can perform and plan for raids, which leads to frustration, which in turn causes half of the old hardcore raiders to quit playing and search for another game to play or activity to fill their time with.

---TLDR;----
The hardcore raiders that were known to exist still exist and still want to play a game at a solid level, but that level of comfort has left WoW. The raid environment they enjoyed so much has changed into something hard to enjoy and does not appear to be returning any time soon, therefore the raiders remain in limbo until they find something to fill the void. Which actually puts ESO in an advantageous position should they want those players to find a sustainable platform to enjoy in ESO.

Being that right now so many players who dedicate so much time and effort into having fun in a game they enjoy are being forced to continue playing at a pace they do not enjoy because no game currently offers the environment they once enjoyed so much.

---

To the point of the topic, ESO needs to find it's own pace to release end game content but it needs to be at least quarterly imo.

I would also love to see encounters mechanically similar to WoW in ESO, even if the bosses aren't large in scale, having tough bosses that are mechanically complex and require a ton of co-ordination is awesome. (Disclaimer: I've yet to partake in a trial, so maybe it's there already.)

I am speaking from personal experience here where I myself am tired of the effort put into WoW as well as 32 other's from my prior guild and current who feel it has become a tedious never ending grind in all aspects and doing it on multiple characters is near impossible without ignoring all of lifes obligations and putting our physical health at risk.

Which has led me back to ESO, a game I truly feel has amazing potential and I was once very passionate about (up until I reached V12 and quit playing because of the lack of end-game content).
I am trying to convince them that coming to ESO is the right decision, currently 4 of them have bought the game over the last couple of days and they all love it and are on board. The others fear the lack of end-game content because they are accustomed to WoW having dungeons and raids that are very repeatable.

This game has everything in place to take over the MMO market aside from regular end-game content. I would love to see this change so I can get all of my friends and guild members to come over and continue playing together on a better game.

WalkingLegacy

OP,

Your endgame is the CP treadmill.



Seriously though, look how many MMOs release and their same response when people leave in droves is "we had no idea people were going to churn through content or base game so fast"

Matt Firor even said this, as well as James Ohlen. Novices. People no life MMOs. Content needs to be there.

ESO needs structure though, definitely in the end game.

PlaceboSoul

My biggest peeve with eso is something I've mentioned in other posts. The crown store model vs subscription model.

The fact is, another massive benefit to sub over crown store, is ingame found content.
Example:
In wow, you want a new fancy mount, you go out into the world to find it, or buy it with in game coin, which you also have to earn. Same with pets, in wow, you go out and find them, then tame them.

In eso, you hit the crown store and drop $50 real money. ABSOLUTELY no benefit to endgame longevity.

It's the short sighted flaw of in app purchase models. When 3/4 of the collectible crapola from the game is NOT in the game but instead bought in a store, it significantly limits endgame activity.

In the subscription model, EVERYTHING is found in the game by looking for it and tracking it down, looting it. It adds an amount to endgame things to do, that shouldn't be underestimated.

The biggest argument I've heard from players about making a switch, is that the sub model was already tried and rejected.
There is a HUGE difference between trying a subscription when a game is in its youth, and unknown, and trying it when it is well established, known, and has some popularity.

The other argument is we will lose people. What people? The ones that aren't that into the game anyway, or are ultra-casual? Who cares. Lose a few that were just looking for a free hangout, the remaining community will be all players that love the game, and it will be stronger.

I honestly can't understand why players argue against switching to this model. I could understand having to do the math for ZOS to show how long term they would benefit, but honestly players protest the sub model too, and for the player a sub model is infinitely more beneficial than a crown store.

Anyway, that's my theory on a big part of why there is less to do in the endgame.

PS lack of dungeon content is a big part too, I agree with the TC.

zaria

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Everything here is based on research I did on WoW. If I got some facts wrong please let me know. Pretty sure it's all sadly accurate.

WoW is an extremely successful MMO. Though I have never played it, I'd hope someday in the future ESO could have nearly as many active players. Of course, the treatment of PvP balance and (more importantly) *game performance* has unfortunateIy crushed any hope of this ever happening. One thing that has come to my attention though recently was the sheer amount of group content in WoW - specifically Dungeons and Raids (aka Trials).

Upon doing some research, I found some shocking facts about WoW's PvE endgame compared to ESO.

This is with regards to just how many Dungeons and Raids you can run in both ESO and WoW.

ESO

Base Game + everything up until the first purchaseable DLC: 16 Dungeons (half have Tier I & II versions), 3 Raids
Imperial City: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Orsinium: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Thieves Guild: 0 Dungeons, 1 Raid
Dark Brotherhood: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Shadows of the Hist: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Total - 20 Dungeons (28 if counting duplicate dungeons via Tier I & II), 4 Raids

WoW

Classic: 20 Dungeons, 5 Raids (more than current ESO)
The Burning Crusade: 16 Dungeons, 8 Raids
Wrath of the Lich King: 16 Dungeons, 9 Raids
Cataclysm: 14 Dungeons, 6 Raids
Mists of Pandaria: 9 Dungeons, 5 Raids, 18 scenarios
Warlords of Draenor: 8 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Legion: 11 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Total - 94 Dungeons, 39 Raids

They also use different player counts for group content.....

In ESO:

Dungeons: 4 players
Raids(Trials): 12 players

In WoW:

Scenarios: 3 players
Dungeons: 5 players
Raids(Trials):
10 players only (two raids)
25 players only (seven raids)
10 or 25 players (nineteen raids)
10-30 player w/ scaling based on amount of players (four raids)
40 player (three raids)

I fully understand that WoW has been out much longer than ESO..... but why is ESO so lacking on endgame content!? This is not due to how much longer WoW has been out, but rather the pacing of ESO launching endgame content. We have 4 raids and the fifth is likely coming with our future Vvardenfell DLC, due late 2017 or even farther. In other words, we will have 5 raids (if not still 4) in ESO at the end of 2017.

On top of this, WoW has included all of their expansions (each of which are larger than all of ESO's DLC combined) into the base game for free except for the most recent "Legion" expansion. Sometime when the next expansion releases, they will undoubtedly make Legion part of base game WoW as well. ESO will never do something like this with their DLC.

..... I guess the point of this post is this - why is ESO so ridiculously slow at releasing endgame group content? This is why the player count is far smaller right now than it ever should've been. ZOS crippled game performance (most notably in PvP) and forced the endgame for most players into PvE since PvP turned into a mess.

We have only 4 Raids and they're all too unrewarding for most players to bother with. The Group Dungeons are all easy for endgame players except maybe some of the DLC dungeons. You also lose gold when you run Trials because there's no BoE loot and you need to chug Potions throughout your runs. How can ESO's raid content maintain a healthy endgame playerbase when there's so little of it and it serves as a gold sink?

Looking up the content WoW contains has definitely put ESO's endgame in perspective for me. The base game was perfect in terms of content, but since then there has been a miniscule amount of effort put into endgame. I can think of tons of good players I know who would've never quit if even a quarter of the amount of dungeons/raids were released to ESO in the same timespan that WoW releases them.

Please tell me I am missing somethimg huge in all of this. As far as I'm concerned, ESO would do amazingly well if it had 4x the current amount of dungeons and 10x the amount of trials including those with 2-3x the amount of players in them.

I love ESO, but it's no secret how poorly the endgame community is doing. Trials are as empty as the PvP population now due to lack of content and incentive. Personally, endgame PvE is all that's left for me. Please revive the endgame community and revise your policy of 2-4 dungeons/1 trial (max) per year. Add more and be serious about endgame to guarantee some longetivity for ESO. The "Elder Scrolls" name can only carry this game so much farther when content runs unbelievably dry and PvP is painfully neglected.

....that is all

I've played WoW off and on since it released in 2004. I currently have an active subscription because I played through the Legion content.

I'm not going to speak poorly of WoW, it has been a game I've played for almost 13 years, but I'm going to say that numbers are not everything.

WoW is a very different kind of MMO from TESO, especially since the One Tameriel patch was released. WoW is the standard zone-to-zone progression MMO and it is very heavily reliant on daily quest grinding. And yeah, it has tons of dungeons, but most of them are irrelevant because you're either too high in level or too low in level for them to matter. And while they can be fun, they're not particularly awe-inducing or imaginative.

The combat system is also a standard tab-target system without much room for the more action-y types of gameplay, which probably explains why their dungeons are bit on the "dry" side. There isn't a heck of a lot they can do aside from throwing some telegraphs around on the ground or messing with buffs and debuffs.

The game is over 13 years old, though, so I'm not saying that to be negative, just stating a fact. WoW does have a lot more of those little non-combat side-activities than most other MMOs, but those things were a product of over a decade of development and their financial success as the top MMO.

WoW may be huge today, but it started off pretty small. Probably smaller than ESO. And while it had a huge amount of dungeons to start off with, the rest of the game was a hell of a lot emptier than ESO at any point. It really was a a massive grind fest, and it still is that way. They just didn't have a lot of competition for a very long time, and that led to a massive and dedicated fan base. WoW's size is largely a product of its age.

ESO is doing pretty well for itself and Zenimax has done a pretty good job of giving ESO enough of its own identity that the game is popular.

Trust me, ESO is a popular MMO. It's not WoW popular, but it's still packed with playersand it's still expanding at a reasonable rate. That's what counts.

This, I played WOW just after catalyzem, and dropped out before mist of Pandora, after one tameriel ESO has far more end game content than WOW, then I played wow single player end game content was an small area with daily quests. That was obviously an downside on PvP servers where your group was far weaker. In ESO its everywhere.

WOW endgame had 5 normal dungeons and perhaps 8 elite / veteran ones, ESO has more.
WOW win on raids, however the normal raids in ESO is very popular and nice content, important for recruitment.

PvP, I like Cyrodil, avoided PvP in WOW, not very good and far too much drama, cyriodil was fun to do as an guild activity, current guilds don't do much pvp and too much to do and to little time as the Khajiit says

And yes, was dranei in WOW, I never play human, loved the dranei lore in outland but the quests was not updated and the grind was insane so it was nice to move on.
Finally the 5 guilds in ESO is an blessing you can do different stuff in different groups. That was an serious issue for me in wow.

Terror

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

My biggest peeve with eso is something I've mentioned in other posts. The crown store model vs subscription model.

The fact is, another massive benefit to sub over crown store, is ingame found content.
Example:
In wow, you want a new fancy mount, you go out into the world to find it, or buy it with in game coin, which you also have to earn. Same with pets, in wow, you go out and find them, then tame them.

In eso, you hit the crown store and drop $50 real money. ABSOLUTELY no benefit to endgame longevity.

It's the short sighted flaw of in app purchase models. When 3/4 of the collectible crapola from the game is NOT in the game but instead bought in a store, it significantly limits endgame activity.

In the subscription model, EVERYTHING is found in the game by looking for it and tracking it down, looting it. It adds an amount to endgame things to do, that shouldn't be underestimated.

The biggest argument I've heard from players about making a switch, is that the sub model was already tried and rejected.
There is a HUGE difference between trying a subscription when a game is in its youth, and unknown, and trying it when it is well established, known, and has some popularity.

The other argument is we will lose people. What people? The ones that aren't that into the game anyway, or are ultra-casual? Who cares. Lose a few that were just looking for a free hangout, the remaining community will be all players that love the game, and it will be stronger.

I honestly can't understand why players argue against switching to this model. I could understand having to do the math for ZOS to show how long term they would benefit, but honestly players protest the sub model too, and for the player a sub model is infinitely more beneficial than a crown store.

Anyway, that's my theory on a big part of why there is less to do in the endgame.

PS lack of dungeon content is a big part too, I agree with the TC.

To this point honestly I feel that the best course of action for ESO at this point in the games life and stability would be to simply add ways to earn crowns in-game at a standardized pace.

ESO should seriously consider converting Crowns into a system where players can trade a set amount of gold for a set amount of Crowns. - This way it makes for a strong gold sink to maintain or improve the value of in-game currency and allows players access to the Crowns they need to further the playability of the content within the Crown Store.

Gating your content behind pay walls with limited ways of paying for it is unwise, the economy does not afford everyone access to the freedom of their budgets and this can cause many people to turn away from the store entirely, which will lead to them having access to less content, burning out faster, or refusing to play the game entirely. None of which are good. So a compromise here can go a very long way.

qsnoopyjr

Difference is, this generation is full of whiners, "content too hard, lets whine about it till we get our way"

Old generation, "hey did you hear, guild such and such got final boss to 20%HP, they getting very close to figuring out mechanics, know what that means??? We gotta raid extra 2 hours" "hey did you hear, guild x is raiding more often now, they trying beat us, we gotta raid 3 hours extra"

There was competition back in the days, nowdays??? Who even looks at leaderboard, they give items to practically everyone, because if they didnt... The whiners would come here and start whining their mouth off.

Basically, took MONTHS to figure out how to do a raid... Nowdays, we'll figure it out in a day or 2. We played so many games, these developers cannot stump us, they are prone to making stuff a tad bit easier than stuff back in the days.

SydneyGrey

I think ESO is making a step in the right direction with Morrowind.

I must be the only person in the world who's never played WOW. I've been an Elder Scrolls fan since the original Morrowind was released, though.

I'm not usually an MMO fan, though. Literally the last MMO I played was Acheron's Call, back a hundred years ago.

emily3989

OP. Go play WOW for a month and relook your post. Thanks

ADarklore

Vaoh wrote: »

Cencewolf wrote: »

Advocating for ESO changes based on WoW is possibly the worst sales pitch. If i wanted to play wow i would.

Secondly (and lastly) they have catered enough to wow kids. The game is trivial and largely plays like a FPS,

-Tradeskills are trivial and maxable in about... 10 mins.
-levels,... Irrelevant, somehow the took the novelty out of "character advancement"
-gear,...fully farmable time sink. no skill required

So yeah, ESO is more like WoW than ever before.. Knock it off,

Am i angry? Noo. I am however dissapointed. Games lack challenge these days now including ESO, (the latest game i came to terms with loving to play) really only curiously waiting around to see the dawn of the next ice age. I hope its beautiful.

You are confused. I have no idea why you are comparing these parts of ESO to WoW.

I'm asking for much more endgame content, which ESO severely lacks. Otherwise the endgame community becomes very small.

Without reading all eight pages, let me just say that ESO is NOT about 'end game' content, it is about PvE questing... that is what the overwhelming majority of players are here to play. Most players have not even tried 'end game' content, nor do they want to. ZOS knows who is playing what in their game and they cater content accordingly... and they aren't going to spend a huge amount of money into developing player minority content and 'hope' that a large number of players suddenly flock to ESO.

PlaceboSoul

Terror wrote: »

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

My biggest peeve with eso is something I've mentioned in other posts. The crown store model vs subscription model.

The fact is, another massive benefit to sub over crown store, is ingame found content.
Example:
In wow, you want a new fancy mount, you go out into the world to find it, or buy it with in game coin, which you also have to earn. Same with pets, in wow, you go out and find them, then tame them.

In eso, you hit the crown store and drop $50 real money. ABSOLUTELY no benefit to endgame longevity.

It's the short sighted flaw of in app purchase models. When 3/4 of the collectible crapola from the game is NOT in the game but instead bought in a store, it significantly limits endgame activity.

In the subscription model, EVERYTHING is found in the game by looking for it and tracking it down, looting it. It adds an amount to endgame things to do, that shouldn't be underestimated.

The biggest argument I've heard from players about making a switch, is that the sub model was already tried and rejected.
There is a HUGE difference between trying a subscription when a game is in its youth, and unknown, and trying it when it is well established, known, and has some popularity.

The other argument is we will lose people. What people? The ones that aren't that into the game anyway, or are ultra-casual? Who cares. Lose a few that were just looking for a free hangout, the remaining community will be all players that love the game, and it will be stronger.

I honestly can't understand why players argue against switching to this model. I could understand having to do the math for ZOS to show how long term they would benefit, but honestly players protest the sub model too, and for the player a sub model is infinitely more beneficial than a crown store.

Anyway, that's my theory on a big part of why there is less to do in the endgame.

PS lack of dungeon content is a big part too, I agree with the TC.

To this point honestly I feel that the best course of action for ESO at this point in the games life and stability would be to simply add ways to earn crowns in-game at a standardized pace.

ESO should seriously consider converting Crowns into a system where players can trade a set amount of gold for a set amount of Crowns. - This way it makes for a strong gold sink to maintain or improve the value of in-game currency and allows players access to the Crowns they need to further the playability of the content within the Crown Store.

Gating your content behind pay walls with limited ways of paying for it is unwise, the economy does not afford everyone access to the freedom of their budgets and this can cause many people to turn away from the store entirely, which will lead to them having access to less content, burning out faster, or refusing to play the game entirely. None of which are good. So a compromise here can go a very long way.

I could be on board with that. I guess my big beef is the current system is way out of balance, and also, I hate buying a game, and not getting "everything", with a bunch of new stuff you have to buy tacked on every month, and out of reach of most. I just prefer being able to acquire everything ingame, like in WoW.

Better balance to eso+ and/or earning crowns in game may be an easy compromise though. It just annoys me to pay $20 per month, and get 1500 crowns, but there are thousands of crowns worth of stuff added each month.

I'm also old, so I still remember the days when you got everything for the purchase price. The in app purchase model isn't going away it seems, but I still hate it.

I would just stop buying things and play free, but the trade bag is by far ZOS's dirtiest trick. For me at least, once you've tried the trade bag, you can't go back. It's the only reason I have eso+ anymore, and I can't play without it, just not enough storage otherwise, at least for those of us with ocd and "pick up everything syndrome". Sooo many crafting components.

Anyway, I've taken this thread off track enough, I'll shut up now about the game financial model.


I'm all for them adding more content to endgame, no matter how they do it.

Agalloch

Vaoh wrote: »

Everything here is based on research I did on WoW. If I got some facts wrong please let me know. Pretty sure it's all sadly accurate.

WoW is an extremely successful MMO. Though I have never played it, I'd hope someday in the future ESO could have nearly as many active players. Of course, the treatment of PvP balance and (more importantly) *game performance* has unfortunateIy crushed any hope of this ever happening. One thing that has come to my attention though recently was the sheer amount of group content in WoW - specifically Dungeons and Raids (aka Trials).

Upon doing some research, I found some shocking facts about WoW's PvE endgame compared to ESO.

This is with regards to just how many Dungeons and Raids you can run in both ESO and WoW.

ESO

Base Game + everything up until the first purchaseable DLC: 16 Dungeons (half have Tier I & II versions), 3 Raids
Imperial City: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Orsinium: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Thieves Guild: 0 Dungeons, 1 Raid
Dark Brotherhood: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Shadows of the Hist: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Total - 20 Dungeons (28 if counting duplicate dungeons via Tier I & II), 4 Raids

WoW

Classic: 20 Dungeons, 5 Raids (more than current ESO)
The Burning Crusade: 16 Dungeons, 8 Raids
Wrath of the Lich King: 16 Dungeons, 9 Raids
Cataclysm: 14 Dungeons, 6 Raids
Mists of Pandaria: 9 Dungeons, 5 Raids, 18 scenarios
Warlords of Draenor: 8 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Legion: 11 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Total - 94 Dungeons, 39 Raids

They also use different player counts for group content.....

In ESO:

Dungeons: 4 players
Raids(Trials): 12 players

In WoW:

Scenarios: 3 players
Dungeons: 5 players
Raids(Trials):
10 players only (two raids)
25 players only (seven raids)
10 or 25 players (nineteen raids)
10-30 player w/ scaling based on amount of players (four raids)
40 player (three raids)

I fully understand that WoW has been out much longer than ESO..... but why is ESO so lacking on endgame content!? This is not due to how much longer WoW has been out, but rather the pacing of ESO launching endgame content. We have 4 raids and the fifth is likely coming with our future Vvardenfell DLC, due late 2017 or even farther. In other words, we will have 5 raids (if not still 4) in ESO at the end of 2017.

On top of this, WoW has included all of their expansions (each of which are larger than all of ESO's DLC combined) into the base game for free except for the most recent "Legion" expansion. Sometime when the next expansion releases, they will undoubtedly make Legion part of base game WoW as well. ESO will never do something like this with their DLC.

..... I guess the point of this post is this - why is ESO so ridiculously slow at releasing endgame group content? This is why the player count is far smaller right now than it ever should've been. ZOS crippled game performance (most notably in PvP) and forced the endgame for most players into PvE since PvP turned into a mess.

We have only 4 Raids and they're all too unrewarding for most players to bother with. The Group Dungeons are all easy for endgame players except maybe some of the DLC dungeons. You also lose gold when you run Trials because there's no BoE loot and you need to chug Potions throughout your runs. How can ESO's raid content maintain a healthy endgame playerbase when there's so little of it and it serves as a gold sink?

Looking up the content WoW contains has definitely put ESO's endgame in perspective for me. The base game was perfect in terms of content, but since then there has been a miniscule amount of effort put into endgame. I can think of tons of good players I know who would've never quit if even a quarter of the amount of dungeons/raids were released to ESO in the same timespan that WoW releases them.

Please tell me I am missing somethimg huge in all of this. As far as I'm concerned, ESO would do amazingly well if it had 4x the current amount of dungeons and 10x the amount of trials including those with 2-3x the amount of players in them.

I love ESO, but it's no secret how poorly the endgame community is doing. Trials are as empty as the PvP population now due to lack of content and incentive. Personally, endgame PvE is all that's left for me. Please revive the endgame community and revise your policy of 2-4 dungeons/1 trial (max) per year. Add more and be serious about endgame to guarantee some longetivity for ESO. The "Elder Scrolls" name can only carry this game so much farther when content runs unbelievably dry and PvP is painfully neglected.

....that is all

Totally agree with you.

A good start will be to reintroduce BOE in trials and dungeons.


Also ZOS must get rid of prosperous trait from the endgame gear.

We must have also a token system for vMA and a transmogrify system.

All of this for the beginning.

Then ZOS could add free 3-4 dungeons per year besides the ones that could come with new dlcs.

Also a free trial per year would be nice.

Battlegrounds must be included in the base game..free for everyone who own the base game.

ESO will have more active players than casuals...so the end game community will grow because ot these "modifications.

We need more incentive to play the endgame ..

Soon Morrowind will launch. An expansion must include all the other DLCs..all the previously content. ..the same WoW makes with every expansion they launch. Legion include all the previously made content for WoW.


I hope ZOS will read this thread and will learn from it.

Also I hope ZOS wil inspire from the success of other MMOS .

We need more content to play not features like housing that are made only for gold sink or crown store .

Housing is nice...but is a feature not new content.

Housing must have storage. This is the first MMO I ever played where housing don' t provide storage.

If you look here at the forums ..everyday you could see people arguing about the bugs, lag, etc..etc..

Look at other MMOS and you will see their forums are not full of complaints ...

There are so many problems in the MMO I love the most ( ESO) ....

I could wait for 6 months if ZOS will fix almost all the problems ESO have.

Then I expect new content and more quality of the service , because ESO is a service ...

ESO need better servers and better coders.

After that..I hope for more incentive added to the end game content...and also more end game content.




English is not my native language.

Jurand80

6 person raids would be lovely

Sausage

Theres Leaderboards, CP-system, Gears and Achievement system, what exactly people want? Thats very very solid endgame structure. Sure, there is alot of tweaking to be done and even couple Overhauls but they get there eventually, its kind of rough around the edges now, but at least the center is in a place. The center should have been in a place at the launch, they pay so huge price for it.

mocap

Personaly, i have more than enough endgame content, assuming we are talking about anything after lvl 50 and/or completing your main storyline (Molag Bal&stuff). This game has almost triple content size of Skyrim, lol. Have you guys completed all alliances quests? DLC quest? Worldbosses (especially solo)? Veteran dungeons? Trials? Arenas?

R1ckyDaMan

PlaceboSoul wrote: »

My biggest peeve with eso is something I've mentioned in other posts. The crown store model vs subscription model.

The fact is, another massive benefit to sub over crown store, is ingame found content.
Example:
In wow, you want a new fancy mount, you go out into the world to find it, or buy it with in game coin, which you also have to earn. Same with pets, in wow, you go out and find them, then tame them.

In eso, you hit the crown store and drop $50 real money. ABSOLUTELY no benefit to endgame longevity.

It's the short sighted flaw of in app purchase models. When 3/4 of the collectible crapola from the game is NOT in the game but instead bought in a store, it significantly limits endgame activity.

In the subscription model, EVERYTHING is found in the game by looking for it and tracking it down, looting it. It adds an amount to endgame things to do, that shouldn't be underestimated.

The biggest argument I've heard from players about making a switch, is that the sub model was already tried and rejected.
There is a HUGE difference between trying a subscription when a game is in its youth, and unknown, and trying it when it is well established, known, and has some popularity.

The other argument is we will lose people. What people? The ones that aren't that into the game anyway, or are ultra-casual? Who cares. Lose a few that were just looking for a free hangout, the remaining community will be all players that love the game, and it will be stronger.

I honestly can't understand why players argue against switching to this model. I could understand having to do the math for ZOS to show how long term they would benefit, but honestly players protest the sub model too, and for the player a sub model is infinitely more beneficial than a crown store.

Anyway, that's my theory on a big part of why there is less to do in the endgame.

PS lack of dungeon content is a big part too, I agree with the TC.

I agree I wish they would revert back to pay to play model the game launched with, all content (apart expacs) in the game to earn in the game.

Tommy_The_Gun

The and game group content (some vet group dungeons, normal & veteran Trials and some Craglorn group dungeons) are unfortunately reserved to guilds. Dungeon finder does not have them listed (although vet Trials are understandable - might be too difficult). I don't understand why normal Trials are not available via dungeon finder...

Ilmarthethief

I agree with TS. ESO definitely need more endgame content.
However, lets remember some history. Last year major task for dev team was One Tamriel. The year before - console release, scaling system and CP system. One Tamriel may seem to be small content wise, but it required loads of work to make. That's why we saw only a couple new dungeons - simply no free hands to code them.
This year is different - we have Morrowind. All we know is that there will be one trial, no more details. Let's wait for them. Maybe this trial alone will be the size of Imperial city with sewers

Sausage

I just love when people beg more endgame content but they dont have any ideas. Housing, Achievements, CP-system, Gears and Leaderboards doesnt seems to be enough, its for me, I wish it was more streamlined and had somekind of logic there, yeah, some ppl call it a "red line".

Games within game could be one way to add things to do. Ive suggested Religion system, one needs to choose Religion then he can spread that within a zone to make a difference, something like that, I havent fully thought it out yet. More influence your Religion has, better your boost or whatever is.

Something could be built around Trade Guild, something to do with Merchants and Gold, Wealth basically.