[video][Updated with testing] Shuffle is just... so broken

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2016

Well Major Evasion also dodged ticks from
DOT skills...seems par for the course

caeliusstarbreaker · December 2016

It's not broken.. It's just really strong. If you un-nerf dodge roll and stop making all these skills go through dodge or raise the inherent armor values of medium armor.. You can get ride of shuffle.

Taylor_MB · December 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Well Major Evasion also dodged ticks from
DOT skills...seems par for the course

But it doesn't prevent the the DoT from being applied at all even when the initial hit connects does it?

Edit: Nevertheless, personally don't believe shuffle should dodge DoT ticks, cause when it dodges the initial apply 20% of the time and dodges 20% of the ticks, that makes the overall dodge chance greater then 20%.

hobicabobjob · December 2016

LeifErickson wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

It reminds me of back before CE was universally known and everyone cried about how shuffle was bugged when it was really just CE (unless there was an exploit that I never knew about) and anyone who used shuffle would be called a cheater.

Wasn't that just double slotting shuffle on both bars and it stacked with itself?

(taking my own thread off topic)

If that is what it was then I didn't know that. I know people told me if you spammed shuffle you could get up to 80% dodge chance, but I thought that was just hoopla.

Both theories were common at the time. I tested them both and neither caused it to happen. A lot of people added "for some players" to the theory.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Well Major Evasion also dodged ticks from
DOT skills...seems par for the course

But it doesn't prevent the the DoT from being applied at all even when the initial hit connects does it?

Edit: Nevertheless, personally don't believe shuffle should dodge DoT ticks, cause when it dodges the initial apply 20% of the time and dodges 20% of the ticks, that makes the overall dodge chance greater then 20%.

I agree it shouldn't dodge ticks of DOT applied

As far as I know it won't prevent the DOT from being applied if the skill connects, but it can proc and dodge DOTS of skill..saw Shuffle dodge ticks of Burning Embers and Engulfing Flames many times back when I played magic DK

Draxys · December 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I don't want it nerfed, I want it out of the game. Un-nerf roll dodge and just get rid of Evasion completely, just like miss chance.

I don't think evasion needs to go, it just needs to be tied to actually doing something other than pressing a button and have a 20% passive dodge chance for however long. For instance, cinder storm for DKs- it would require a DK to stand their ground in order to gain the miss chance, which would be far more balanced imo.

KisoValley · December 2016

Wheres this vid? I can post screenshots just like anyone else

Taylor_MB · December 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

Wheres this vid? I can post screenshots just like anyone else

So because you or anyone can post screenshots that somehow invalidates them? Much logic. Anyone can post videos also, just fyi. Would you like to actually address the issue raised?

I *can* make a video, but it won't show anything different from what the screenshots demonstrate, and will probably even be more unclear with the combat log text being so small and likely losing quality. The only thing I can see it showing is Incap not stunning when no CC immunity, is that your point of contention, that I (and others above) am lying about this?

Is there a particular concern you would like to raise about my methodology or conclusions? I am happy to discuss them. Be back in some hours.

Own · December 2016

Incap also has a problem hitting damage through the beginning of a dodge roll, but missing all buffs and the cc as if it were dodged. I think incap is the problem here.

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Video as requested.

Edited and annotated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NbIjHU6Ig
0:00 - 0:24
Establishing damage numbers

0:24 - 0:30
Dodging increased damage taken

0:55
Dodging stun

Original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG3bLSNEbEw

Shuffle is broken, by having a 20% chance to dodge initial hit (and all debuffs) and a further 20% to dodge each debuff even when initial hit connects, with out having an 80% chance to apply debuffs when initial hit misses, shuffle is dodging more then 20%.

Edit: are the screenshots in the OP broken for anyone else or just me?

HoloYoitsu · December 2016

Let's change shuffle to dodge 100% of proctato set dmg and nothing else. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

KisoValley · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

KisoValley wrote: »

Wheres this vid? I can post screenshots just like anyone else

So because you or anyone can post screenshots that somehow invalidates them? Much logic. Anyone can post videos also, just fyi. Would you like to actually address the issue raised?

I *can* make a video, but it won't show anything different from what the screenshots demonstrate, and will probably even be more unclear with the combat log text being so small and likely losing quality. The only thing I can see it showing is Incap not stunning when no CC immunity, is that your point of contention, that I (and others above) am lying about this?

Is there a particular concern you would like to raise about my methodology or conclusions? I am happy to discuss them. Be back in some hours.

I've seen my fair share of screen shots trying to claim something isn't working as intended for the screen shots to be proven wrong by actual video evidence.

raasdal · December 2016

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Just jumping back in to remind everyone to please read the OP
We are not discussing major evasion dodge percentage or possible cheat engine manipulation.

The above screenshots demonstrate that (for incap) debuffs associated with a damage attack can be separately shuffle dodged. 100% confirmed that it is not just an add-on error, in controlled testing when it said "xyz has dodged Incap Strike" the target took damage but did not get stunned. No I did not test separately for major defile or damage taken but I would assume consistency. Even if defile and damage taken are just a add-on error the stun being dodged when the incap hit is still a large enough issue (see results of the 20 controlled tests I did).

This is a clear and obvious bug with major evasion getting calculated on debuffs even when the initial attack is connected. Debuffs do not still have an 80% to apply when initial damaged is shuffle dodged, so why would it work the other way around? This is causing an over 20% dodge chance.

Edit: If people would like to do further testing with like dark flare + defile, I'm pretty confident you will have the same result (but I'm all tested out, I just want to fight (even with my broken skills)).

Seems pretty simple to figure out, the game considers the attack and whatever debuffs/stuns/etc that are "attached" to it as separately "applied" actions and each one is factored against the 20% dodge chance... as the debuffs are "attached" to the attack however, if the attack is dodged the debuffs are simply not activated as it then considers that they were never triggered by landing the required attack.

Not saying that it SHOULD work that way, just that it would most certainly seem to...

Unfortunately, i agree with this. I do not think this is a bug or broken. I am afraid it is "working as intended". But i think anyone can agree it should not work that way.

When you do the numbers, it gets crazy. Hitting someone with Incap who has Shuffle up, will give you 80% chance to hit him with damage. But only 64% to Stun or Disease or Increase Damage. Collectively, the odds of you landing the damage and ALL 3 extra effects is only 40%. Meaning the opponent has 60% chance to dodge at least one of the effects.

But dont expect a "fix". Dont think we will get one.