[video][Updated with testing] Shuffle is just... so broken

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Not an add-on error. I've increasingly noticed people without CC immunity up and without blocking somehow not getting stunned from incap even though it connected and did damage. These are only 2 screenshots from today, this has been happening noticeably for approx 2 weeks.

Even shuffle users would like to see major evasion removed from the game. Just cut the cost of shuffle in half, make it snare removal and immunity from snares for 5-10secs.

Videos demonstrating stun and increased damage taken being dodged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NbIjHU6Ig
0:00 - 0:24
Establishing damage numbers

0:24 - 0:30
Dodging increased damage taken

0:55
Dodging stun

Original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG3bLSNEbEw

---

UPDATE:
Results of further testing (please do replicate or increase sample size or use different skills that have a damage and buff/debuff component to see if universal or just Incap - I don't think there are any other skills that pack so many different effects into one, which is why it is so obvious and harming with incap). Partners were using shuffle (medium armour skill), not mirage (nightblade skill).

Number of tests: 20
Everything hit: 7 (35%)
Everything dodged: 3 (15%)
Defile only dodged: 2 (10%)
Increased dmg taken only dodged: 1 (5%)
Stun only dodged: 5 (25%)
Stun and defile dodged: 1 (5%)
Stun and increased dmg taken dodged: 1 (5%)
Defile and increased dmg taken dodged: 0 (0%)

Assuming 4 major evasion calculations per incap, that is 80 "attacks" with 24 dodges equaling a total dodge chance of ~30%. Debuffs do not still have an 80% to apply when initial damaged is shuffle dodged, so why would it work the other way around? This is why total dodge is over 20% and totally broken mechanic.

There is no way this bug has been happening since before 1T, someone would've noticed before now, ZOS has gone and messed something up hardcore (or in a patch since). Based off a relatively small sample size of 20, Incap only applies all its effects ~35% of the time against a target with major evasion. Stunning only works ~50% of the time against a target with major evasion, this is abysmal!

This cannot be working as intended, if the damage is not dodged, the debuffs and CC must be applied.

Screenshots of combat log from further testing:

^didn't crop as much as I could've, that light attack and befouled dodge are not relevant

Incap%20Shuffle%20Testing_1.png

@raasdal did the math (pretty close to what I got with 20 Incap test):

raasdal wrote: »

When you do the numbers, it gets crazy. Hitting someone with Incap who has Shuffle up, will give you 80% chance to hit him with damage. But only 64% to Stun or Disease or Increase Damage. Collectively, the odds of you landing the damage and ALL 3 extra effects is only 40%. Meaning the opponent has 60% chance to dodge at least one of the effects.

Note 1: I was also wearing Selene during this testing, as evidenced from the screenshots each of Incap's 4 "attacks" do not count individually towards a Selene proc (proc'd once) like they seem to in major evasion calculations.

Note 2: I had a Selene proc and do damage against Tissi and neither of us saw the animation, invisible bear attack!

LeifErickson · December 2016

I have experienced this as well on both sides of the equation.

Kutsuu · December 2016

I tried to post about this - major evasion being able to dodge the stun, damage increase, and defile from incap even after the physical damage itself lands... and got blasted by a bunch of naysayers.

So yeah, this has happened to me many times. IMO if the damage connects, the effects should always connect.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Not an add-on error. I've increasingly noticed people without CC immunity up and without blocking somehow not getting stunned from incap even though it connected and did damage. These are only 2 screenshots from today, this has been happening noticeably for approx 2 weeks.

Even shuffle users would like to see major evasion removed from the game. Just cut the cost of shuffle in half, make it snare removal and immunity from snares for 5-10secs.

Multiple time i've seen strange thing: guy without cc immunity just ignores petrify, so now i know why

ostrapz · December 2016

Can confirm. Happens often

Ishammael · December 2016

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

That's well known and not really what was being focused here.

This is an attack hitting but buffs/debuffs/CC's being dodged. Or - the buffs/debuffs/CC's counted as a separate "attack" from the damage and therefore shuffle dodgable separate from primary attack.

Ishammael · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

That's well known and not really what was being focused here.

This is an attack hitting but buffs/debuffs/CC's being dodged. Or - the buffs/debuffs/CC's counted as a separate "attack" from the damage and therefore shuffle dodgable separate from primary attack.

Actually it is exactly what is happening.

It is further broken when you start analyzing what happens with DoTs

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

That's well known and not really what was being focused here.

This is an attack hitting but buffs/debuffs/CC's being dodged. Or - the buffs/debuffs/CC's counted as a separate "attack" from the damage and therefore shuffle dodgable separate from primary attack.

Actually it is exactly what is happening.

It is further broken when you start analyzing what happens with DoTs

Everyone knows shuffle provides a dodge window and not just a single attack.

The above screenshots are demonstrating that debuffs and CC (specifically relating to Incap) are all considered separate attacks in regards to major evasion calculations. So a single attack (Incap) can have part of it dodged. Yes the first screenshot also demonstrates what you are talking about with multiple things getting dodged but shuffle would've only proc'd on the "Damaged Taken Increased" - but this was not the focus of this thread seeming that is already so widely known.

Qbiken · December 2016

This is how I feel about these kind of posts

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

This is how I feel about these kind of posts

Why though?

Qbiken · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

This is how I feel about these kind of posts

Why though?

Because 99/100 "fix this" posts on the forum are rants with no actuall proof or constructive way of "fixing". People rarely consider L2P issues and few people knows how the skill actualyl works. And I ask myself this question: Is shuffle a problem i pvp????? = No it isn´´t. Just because you missed an enemy player using shuffle doesn´t mean it´s broken.....

TL:DR I´m just tired of meaningless nerfthreads

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

This is how I feel about these kind of posts

Why though?

Because 99/100 "fix this" posts on the forum are rants with no actuall proof or constructive way of "fixing". People rarely consider L2P issues and few people knows how the skill actualyl works. And I ask myself this question: Is shuffle a problem i pvp????? = No it isn´´t. Just because you missed an enemy player using shuffle doesn´t mean it´s broken.....

TL:DR I´m just tired of meaningless nerfthreads

Did you even read the post and examine the combat log screenshots? I believe they demonstrate pretty conclusively that major evasion calculations are flawed when an attack can hit, but the CC, defile, and dmg increase buff can still be shuffled dodged. Each component of Incap has 20% each to be dodged, which makes zero sense. If a skill hits, then all its active effects should be applied.

Please tell my how this is not an obvious bug and how I should L2P.

Solariken · December 2016

Yep, agree OP. Major Evasion needs to be changed to a different mechanic than passive dodge.

I also think that Incap is broken. The stun portion of the ability occurs immediately upon cast but the damage occurs at the point in the animation when your blades strike the target. In other words, there is a desync that pretty much guarantees that the ability will connect if the target is 1) not CC immune and 2) doesn't passively dodge the stun and/or damage. It's a fast ability for sure, but I swear the stun used to happen at the point if damage, allowing for possible counterplay.

bellanca6561n · December 2016

It's just silly is all, seeing all these "dodged" "dodged" "dodged" messages on your screen for attacks nobody can see coming unless they're either a superhero or stars in Hong Kong martial arts movies.

I agree that nerf threads are tedious. You need some passive combat skills in network games.

kadar · December 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

This is how I feel about these kind of posts

Why though?

Because 99/100 "fix this" posts on the forum are rants with no actuall proof or constructive way of "fixing". People rarely consider L2P issues and few people knows how the skill actualyl works. And I ask myself this question: Is shuffle a problem i pvp????? = No it isn´´t. Just because you missed an enemy player using shuffle doesn´t mean it´s broken.....

TL:DR I´m just tired of meaningless nerfthreads

You Sir, did not read the OP...

Qbiken · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

This is how I feel about these kind of posts

Why though?

Because 99/100 "fix this" posts on the forum are rants with no actuall proof or constructive way of "fixing". People rarely consider L2P issues and few people knows how the skill actualyl works. And I ask myself this question: Is shuffle a problem i pvp????? = No it isn´´t. Just because you missed an enemy player using shuffle doesn´t mean it´s broken.....

TL:DR I´m just tired of meaningless nerfthreads

Did you even read the post and examine the combat log screenshots? I believe they demonstrate pretty conclusively that major evasion calculations are flawed when an attack can hit, but the CC, defile, and dmg increase buff can still be shuffled dodged. Each component of Incap has 20% each to be dodged, which makes zero sense. If a skill hits, then all its active effects should be applied.

Please tell my how this is not an obvious bug and how I should L2P.

Regarding biting jabs: Each hit is individually calculated so yes it is possible for the 2nd and 4th jab to hit while the 1st and 3rd hit. Regarding the major defile not applying I can´t answer, but I would be surpriced if it was due to shuffle

raasdal · December 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

People keep saying this. But so far, i have not seen a single video presenting facts about Shuffle and tve dodge chance.

Given my knowledge of other mechanics, such as blocking, it is very likely that the dodgemechanic works like a dodgeroll, within phasebased combat. But contrary to what @Manoekin states, if this is the case, you would NOT have increased chance per hit taken. The 20% chance would be given to you, if you are taking damage in a combat phase. It will not matter how many times you took damage. But if you get the roll of the dice to dodge, you will dodge everything that hit you in that calculatiln cycle.

It is also very possible it is all wrong and just a flat 20% to dodge anything anytime.

But again. Where is the coherent video, showing clearly what happens? I will see if i can make one myself tonight.

Yiko · December 2016

So I guess that explains why my Incap was doing damage but not ccing.. T_T holy hell

Manoekin · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

People keep saying this. But so far, i have not seen a single video presenting facts about Shuffle and tve dodge chance.

Given my knowledge of other mechanics, such as blocking, it is very likely that the dodgemechanic works like a dodgeroll, within phasebased combat. But contrary to what @Manoekin states, if this is the case, you would NOT have increased chance per hit taken. The 20% chance would be given to you, if you are taking damage in a combat phase. It will not matter how many times you took damage. But if you get the roll of the dice to dodge, you will dodge everything that hit you in that calculatiln cycle.

It is also very possible it is all wrong and just a flat 20% to dodge anything anytime.

But again. Where is the coherent video, showing clearly what happens? I will see if i can make one myself tonight.

My point was that if you have 10 people attacking you it's more likely to proc and thus the uptime will be higher. Against a single player they can only hit you so fast, but with a constant stream of attacks your chances of proccing the dodge again a half second after the last window ended would be pretty high. This is where the i-frame mechanic truly shows itself because ZOS probably designed it around 1v1 situations where you wouldn't be getting hit again before the window ended (even though that isn't true, we know).

Good thread pointing out that apparently debuffs/damage amps can trigger evasion.

raasdal · December 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

People keep saying this. But so far, i have not seen a single video presenting facts about Shuffle and tve dodge chance.

Given my knowledge of other mechanics, such as blocking, it is very likely that the dodgemechanic works like a dodgeroll, within phasebased combat. But contrary to what @Manoekin states, if this is the case, you would NOT have increased chance per hit taken. The 20% chance would be given to you, if you are taking damage in a combat phase. It will not matter how many times you took damage. But if you get the roll of the dice to dodge, you will dodge everything that hit you in that calculatiln cycle.

It is also very possible it is all wrong and just a flat 20% to dodge anything anytime.

But again. Where is the coherent video, showing clearly what happens? I will see if i can make one myself tonight.

My point was that if you have 10 people attacking you it's more likely to proc and thus the uptime will be higher. Against a single player they can only hit you so fast, but with a constant stream of attacks your chances of proccing the dodge again a half second after the last window ended would be pretty high. This is where the i-frame mechanic truly shows itself because ZOS probably designed it around 1v1 situations where you wouldn't be getting hit again before the window ended (even though that isn't true, we know).

Good thread pointing out that apparently debuffs/damage amps can trigger evasion.

I am sorry, but what you are saying about i-Frames are just not true. It is false information. I have just tested this, and there is no such thing as a procced window for dodging,

The 20% chance to dodge applies to every single damage component (including debuffs). There is NO window where you dodge everything.

Here is a video of the test, which proofs what i am saying here;

As you can clearly see, even with animation cancelled LA/Skill/Bash, shuffle will dodge each component individually. It can dodge the heavy, the skill or the bash, individually.

IF there is a supposed "dodge-window" or i-frame, it is so insanely short - like 1/50th of a second, that the chance of you getting hit by anything else in that timeframe, is virtually impossible, even when zerged down.

https://youtu.be/mAiY4SrWBuk

Taylor_MB · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

People keep saying this. But so far, i have not seen a single video presenting facts about Shuffle and tve dodge chance.

Given my knowledge of other mechanics, such as blocking, it is very likely that the dodgemechanic works like a dodgeroll, within phasebased combat. But contrary to what @Manoekin states, if this is the case, you would NOT have increased chance per hit taken. The 20% chance would be given to you, if you are taking damage in a combat phase. It will not matter how many times you took damage. But if you get the roll of the dice to dodge, you will dodge everything that hit you in that calculatiln cycle.

It is also very possible it is all wrong and just a flat 20% to dodge anything anytime.

But again. Where is the coherent video, showing clearly what happens? I will see if i can make one myself tonight.

My point was that if you have 10 people attacking you it's more likely to proc and thus the uptime will be higher. Against a single player they can only hit you so fast, but with a constant stream of attacks your chances of proccing the dodge again a half second after the last window ended would be pretty high. This is where the i-frame mechanic truly shows itself because ZOS probably designed it around 1v1 situations where you wouldn't be getting hit again before the window ended (even though that isn't true, we know).

Good thread pointing out that apparently debuffs/damage amps can trigger evasion.

I am sorry, but what you are saying about i-Frames are just not true. It is false information. I have just tested this, and there is no such thing as a procced window for dodging,

The 20% chance to dodge applies to every single damage component (including debuffs). There is NO window where you dodge everything.

Here is a video of the test, which proofs what i am saying here;

As you can clearly see, even with animation cancelled LA/Skill/Bash, shuffle will dodge each component individually. It can dodge the heavy, the skill or the bash, individually.

IF there is a supposed "dodge-window" or i-frame, it is so insanely short - like 1/50th of a second, that the chance of you getting hit by anything else in that timeframe, is virtually impossible, even when zerged down.

https://youtu.be/mAiY4SrWBuk

Bashing after heavy + skill is not a reliable way to to test this, timing not always reliable. Use DW heavy attack (as each counts as it's own attack so easier to test with more chances of dodging), just hold down left click permanently and keep mashing a skill button. The shuffle dodge window absolutely does exists, but you are right it is tiny, which is why bashing after skill use is not reliable, that small delay is enough. I would do this to demonstrate but don't have a screen capture software currently.

Also, your flying combat text sometimes showed 3 hits and 2 misses within the same combo, what is up with that? Your video is not clear in the slightest.

---

I have also updated the original post with some more testing. With a sample size of 20 incaps (or 80 dodgeable "attacks"), the total dodge chance is ~30%, so this supports the theory that a shuffle dodge window does in fact exist.

Edit: You got me thinking now though, off to do more testing.

---

Edit 2: So I did some more testing with DW and 2H, both going heavy attack + surprise attack, and your video absolutely 100% checks out, I apologise for my skepticism. The first attack can be dodged with the immediate follow up hitting (including the first and second with duel wield heavy attack).

I do wonder if they made a change recently that fixed the shuffle dodge window? Or is my observational bias that bad that I assumed it existed because I always saw my first attack in combo dodged and all subsequent ones also dodged? I would've bet my fortune on that the shuffle dodge window did use to exist, I have many memories or my opener missing + the skill I cancelled it with and no memories of the heavy attack missing but the surprise attack hitting.

Now I'm intrigued how I got a 30% dodge chance with Incap and all its debuffs, sample size too small? 80 does seem large enough. Open to suggestions

LeifErickson · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Please see @Manoekin description in adjacent thread.

Essentially, here's what happens: Evasion gives a 20% chance to dodge within a specific frame of time. Meaning that attacks which land within that time all miss. This is particularly powerful in a 1vX situation, although not such a big deal in 1v1.

Regardless, it needs to be fixed. Many suggestions have been put out on these forums.

People keep saying this. But so far, i have not seen a single video presenting facts about Shuffle and tve dodge chance.

Given my knowledge of other mechanics, such as blocking, it is very likely that the dodgemechanic works like a dodgeroll, within phasebased combat. But contrary to what @Manoekin states, if this is the case, you would NOT have increased chance per hit taken. The 20% chance would be given to you, if you are taking damage in a combat phase. It will not matter how many times you took damage. But if you get the roll of the dice to dodge, you will dodge everything that hit you in that calculatiln cycle.

It is also very possible it is all wrong and just a flat 20% to dodge anything anytime.

But again. Where is the coherent video, showing clearly what happens? I will see if i can make one myself tonight.

My point was that if you have 10 people attacking you it's more likely to proc and thus the uptime will be higher. Against a single player they can only hit you so fast, but with a constant stream of attacks your chances of proccing the dodge again a half second after the last window ended would be pretty high. This is where the i-frame mechanic truly shows itself because ZOS probably designed it around 1v1 situations where you wouldn't be getting hit again before the window ended (even though that isn't true, we know).

Good thread pointing out that apparently debuffs/damage amps can trigger evasion.

I am sorry, but what you are saying about i-Frames are just not true. It is false information. I have just tested this, and there is no such thing as a procced window for dodging,

The 20% chance to dodge applies to every single damage component (including debuffs). There is NO window where you dodge everything.

Here is a video of the test, which proofs what i am saying here;

As you can clearly see, even with animation cancelled LA/Skill/Bash, shuffle will dodge each component individually. It can dodge the heavy, the skill or the bash, individually.

IF there is a supposed "dodge-window" or i-frame, it is so insanely short - like 1/50th of a second, that the chance of you getting hit by anything else in that timeframe, is virtually impossible, even when zerged down.

https://youtu.be/mAiY4SrWBuk

Thank you for this. I have seen so many people say that about shuffle and I always was skeptical because I had never seen proof myself (but I didn't disagree because I just assumed I missed a thread where someone tested it and proved it). I feel like there is so much misinformation that people have about mechanics in this game, you never know what is true and what someone just made up.

It reminds me of back before CE was universally known and everyone cried about how shuffle was bugged when it was really just CE (unless there was an exploit that I never knew about) and anyone who used shuffle would be called a cheater.

Taylor_MB · December 2016

LeifErickson wrote: »

It reminds me of back before CE was universally known and everyone cried about how shuffle was bugged when it was really just CE (unless there was an exploit that I never knew about) and anyone who used shuffle would be called a cheater.

Wasn't that just double slotting shuffle on both bars and it stacked with itself?

(taking my own thread off topic)

Bazeric · December 2016

Have noticed this with Soul Harvest and Concealed Weapon. Might be worth more testing... don't know if you have/can test that. I am PC NA. Are you testing against a friend, or collecting from the "field?"

LeifErickson · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

It reminds me of back before CE was universally known and everyone cried about how shuffle was bugged when it was really just CE (unless there was an exploit that I never knew about) and anyone who used shuffle would be called a cheater.

Wasn't that just double slotting shuffle on both bars and it stacked with itself?

(taking my own thread off topic)

If that is what it was then I didn't know that. I know people told me if you spammed shuffle you could get up to 80% dodge chance, but I thought that was just hoopla.

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Bazeric wrote: »

Have noticed this with Soul Harvest and Concealed Weapon. Might be worth more testing... don't know if you have/can test that. I am PC NA. Are you testing against a friend, or collecting from the "field?"

First 2 screenshots were from the field, I've included a further 20 screenshots inside the spoiler section that I tested against 2 friends.

Soul harvest also has the major defile, so highly possibly this would also be getting dodged, I have the wrong morph to test this myself though. Hit me up at @Taylor_MB if you want to test things (also PC NA).

I just tested with surprise attack and the stun from stealth (like concealed weapon) works perfectly every time against a target with no cc immunity and shuffle up (unless the initial attack is dodged). I suspect this is because this stun is not a straight up effect and instead is calculated from stealth / cloak, so has been unaffected by whatever they changed that effects the unconditional stun from incap.

glavius · December 2016

Yep Raasdal is correct. No dodge frame whatsoever. Nor has there been in the past. About 6 months ago, back when people started talking about shuffle bug, I did a 500 attack test, light attack/skill/bash animation cancelled. Total dodge chance was 21% in that test.
Older UI addons also showed dodges that didn't happen (alle 3 attacks connected, yet a dodge showed, and I used no weapon glyph). I think it was FTC I used back then.

I also did a test last week with a smaller sample around 125 hits, showing 19% dodge from shuffle. (and another 125 hit sample showing 17% dodge with mirage NB skill)

I also tested light attack+insta frags vs shuffle. Frags were dodged 22% of the time, light attack 15% of the time. This was with a 120 sample.

If I did higher samples, I'm pretty sure it all dodge percentages would come close to 20%.

Also, even if the UI showed the extra effects were dodged, did you test that they actually were?
Addons tend to often be incorrect.

raasdal · December 2016

Regarding the extra dodge coming up in the FTC text, even though all 3 skills hit, is because the target dodges the Debuff from the skill. So in my test, i was actually hitting with 4 dodeable attacks all at once. If you pause and check the Log you can see that

Taylor_MB · December 2016

glavius wrote: »

Yep Raasdal is correct. No dodge frame whatsoever. Nor has there been in the past. About 6 months ago, back when people started talking about shuffle bug, I did a 500 attack test, light attack/skill/bash animation cancelled. Total dodge chance was 21% in that test.
Older UI addons also showed dodges that didn't happen (alle 3 attacks connected, yet a dodge showed, and I used no weapon glyph). I think it was FTC I used back then.

I also did a test last week with a smaller sample around 125 hits, showing 19% dodge from shuffle. (and another 125 hit sample showing 17% dodge with mirage NB skill)

I also tested light attack+insta frags vs shuffle. Frags were dodged 22% of the time, light attack 15% of the time. This was with a 120 sample.

If I did higher samples, I'm pretty sure it all dodge percentages would come close to 20%.

Also, even if the UI showed the extra effects were dodged, did you test that they actually were?
Addons tend to often be incorrect.

Thanks for all the information!

I didn't test defile or increased damage taken (was keeping it simple), but every time the combat log registered a hit (and I could see standard ESO HP bar go down) but said "xyz dodged Incapacitating Strike" they didn't get stunned. I took this to mean the damage hit (which it did) but that message meant "xyz dodged Incap Stun" which is consistent with my controlled observations (never had CC immunity up).

So I'm inclined to believe the defile and increased dmg taken were also accurate - but would love to do more testing on this if I can find a partner who is willing to stand there and spam shuffle and heals for a longish period of time.

WillhelmBlack · December 2016

I don't want it nerfed, I want it out of the game. Un-nerf roll dodge and just get rid of Evasion completely, just like miss chance.