This thread is a great reminder of why I absolutely hate reading game forums anymore. The update has been out for 5 minutes, and here we have yet another "x killed the game" thread. Bleh.

Cristiano wrote: »

This thread is a great reminder of why I absolutely hate reading game forums anymore. The update has been out for 5 minutes, and here we have yet another "x killed the game" thread. Bleh.

Well I'll just say that I have never enjoyed a game with level scaling mechanics. I'm going to give it a chance, but "arbitrarily chasing bigger numbers that have no discernible impact because all the other numbers get bigger in response" has never worked for me as an incentive to keep playing -- how big or small my numbers are should have no impact on how big or small the others are, and it should be down to me to keep step, lag behind, or work extra hard to get ahead.

Ufretin wrote: »

I mostly agree with OP. Even after maxing out CP on my main long ago, I've still enjoyed the sense of achievement during the leveling phase on every new toon: being able to advance into a new area, being able to kill a boss you couldn't kill before, new gear becoming available, etc.

Nowadays there's only two types of characters: "incomplete" ones (lvl1 - cp159), a pityful existence to leave behind asap and "complete" ones (cp160+), ready to be geared up properly, start pvp, start doing dungeons/trials to farm sets etc.

Have you noticed ZOS shoving another xp buff down our throats with almost every update? We have xp buffs from psyjic ambrosia / crown scrolls, pledge of mara, eso plus, enlightenment, we had the insane 100% buff during anniversary event, they turned "training" trait (which used to be a nice way to exercise control over which skill lines to level up) into yet another generic xp buff, they buffed xp gained from pvp with DB update and now again with OT, etc, etc....

Why? To please players who can't enjoy playing a toon until he reaches 160/561cp? First steps to do away with level system altogether? Looks like devs were / are uncomfortable with their own leveling system and are trying to bury it clandestinely...

Our of curiosity what do you do with those "complete" characters once they have farmed the sets they need and are geared up properly?

If the only point in playing any part of the game is to prepare yourself for another part of the game when do you ever get to the part you actually want to be doing?

spectre303 wrote: »

Maybe try it for a few days first before dismissing it outright.

well, of course I will I won't just drop it like this. But, for the moment, I'm not that interested as before to come home and play. And that's not good.

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

I don't remember traditional Elder Scrolls games like this, honestly. Except Oblivion, which wasn't so bad made anyway (when I was strong, I was strong, even if the mobs had the same lvl as me). And anyway, the fact that others do it, don't make it right.

Auricle wrote: »

I think the title of this thread is a touch melodramatic. I know change is new and scary, but it's not as bad as all that. There are many ways to improve in strength besides just leveling.

well, of course that was my opinion. It killed the fun to me, so it basically killed the game. To me. I'm not so hungry to go back, login and play. Until yesterday I was only thinking about that.

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

It's been like, 8 minutes, and it's already "killed the game?"

for me yes. It could be even only 1 minute if I don't like a feature, it doesn't change with time.

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

I am confused, you have high CP players soloing vet dungeons already. So now the game isn't a faceroll and people complain. Yet posts all over the place that this game was too casual and easy and it sucks 1 shotting everything that you sneeze at.

I am glad its back to difficult, you should have played when it first opened, much more difficult than now.

Its literally been what? 5 hours and the game is broken and killed....

I actually played the beta too, at the time. Didn't like it, so I came back a few weeks ago. For me the feeling to increase my power and do new challenges really pleased me. Now there is no that feeling anymore, now everything is the same. I don't feel like I grow stronger.

JKith wrote: »

I actually like how Tamriel One is better because it's in line with how the other Elder Scrolls titles were... and how a real world would be...

I couldn't disagree more with those two statements. It's not in line with other Elder Scrolls titles and in a real (fantasy) world, the creatures in a area don't change based on you. They maintain the same level and you have to be stronger in order to defeat them.

Danikat wrote: »

I realise it's basically just a difference of opinion but I can't understand this attitude.

I don't see the point in levelling up simply for the sake of being a higher level and seeing bigger numbers on the screen. That's meaningless to me. If you're not having fun doing quests or whatever I can't imagine it's going to suddenly become fun because there are larger numbers involved. And if you are having fun doing it then it doesn't matter if you have to do it to move on to the next thing or not, you're having fun playing a game and that is ultimately the point of the whole thing.

For me levels are a form of gating - they force you to do content in the order the designers have decided on because if you try to deviate from that you'll be too low level and will die repeatedly. Now that's gone. If you want to play through all of the quests then you can, in whatever order you choose (following the storyline or not), if you only want to play certain parts then you can do that too (even if those parts are end-game dungeons which previously required you to grind for hours before you could even start). I see it as putting all of the choice over what to do in-game in the hands of the players, which is a good thing.

For me it was fun because of the exploration. I come to a new area, I analyze the fauna there and decide if it's too dangerous to continue or not. If not, I will probably go train myself, doing other missions and become stronger. Then I can try again. That's funny to me.

I can make a simple example that happened to me a few days ago. I was in a dungeon where a lot of mobs, same lvl as me, can attack you at the same time. I died many times. I then went to train myself, tried again and again...until I was strong enough and clear the dungeon all by myself. I was actually proud of myself. Now what? I guess if I go again to that dungeon I will die and die and die again...I didn't achieve anything, then. Where is my award?

Meh...

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

I don't know your feelings about it, but for me this "feature" really destroyed any fun I had in the game.

I'm still not even lvl 50, and I like to do quests and kill mobs in order to increase my lvl and become stronger. Now what? I don't even need it. I can go anywhere, my lvl will be scaled, or the mobs lvl will be, so I don't have any fun or need in doing it. It would be only for the skills.

What's the sense in that?

Also, when I encountered a strong mob (a group boss maybe) and I wanted to take it down alone, if I couldn't, I just made some lvl more, became stronger, went back and kicked his...butt. Now it's useless. If I can't kill a mob, I just can't. I will be forced to do it with a group of people. That's not funny.

Really, in the last weeks I logged in and played as much as I could, every time I had some free time to spare. Now, I logged in, went to some old-low-level zone, fought some monster and saw how long it takes me now to kill them...I just logged out. Now we have to be careful wherever we are, but not too much because there is no one who can really kill us. It's so "flat" that takes all the fun away.


My opinion, of course.

Or you can level your skills, get better gear, and come back? I spent most of today soloing world bosses in various zones just to see if it was still possible, and it was. With time, talent, and dedication, you can still solo anything in the overworld. Only places I have found things I couldn't kill by myself would be a few world bosses in Orsinium, Hew's Bane, Craglorn, and both world bosses in the Gold Coast.

if you are more than 5 levels than the mobs you wnt get xp anywys, so now at least you can farm anywhere you want at any level.

I thought this was a brilliant idea

What I like about this is that it allows me to progress at my own pace. If I want to complete all quests in a given area I can do it and not worry that I'll outlevel the next area of interest. Outleveling content when playing new characters has been a serious issue for me since I love sidequests, exploration and whatnot.

Secondly, it's more immersive. I hate how you'd be destroying demons in one zone but you'd die to an imp in another.

Danikat wrote: »

Ufretin wrote: »

I mostly agree with OP. Even after maxing out CP on my main long ago, I've still enjoyed the sense of achievement during the leveling phase on every new toon: being able to advance into a new area, being able to kill a boss you couldn't kill before, new gear becoming available, etc.

Nowadays there's only two types of characters: "incomplete" ones (lvl1 - cp159), a pityful existence to leave behind asap and "complete" ones (cp160+), ready to be geared up properly, start pvp, start doing dungeons/trials to farm sets etc.

Have you noticed ZOS shoving another xp buff down our throats with almost every update? We have xp buffs from psyjic ambrosia / crown scrolls, pledge of mara, eso plus, enlightenment, we had the insane 100% buff during anniversary event, they turned "training" trait (which used to be a nice way to exercise control over which skill lines to level up) into yet another generic xp buff, they buffed xp gained from pvp with DB update and now again with OT, etc, etc....

Why? To please players who can't enjoy playing a toon until he reaches 160/561cp? First steps to do away with level system altogether? Looks like devs were / are uncomfortable with their own leveling system and are trying to bury it clandestinely...

Our of curiosity what do you do with those "complete" characters once they have farmed the sets they need and are geared up properly?

If the only point in playing any part of the game is to prepare yourself for another part of the game when do you ever get to the part you actually want to be doing?

that's my question too and that's why I made that sarcastic remark about players who try to avoid the leveling phase like the plague...

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

This I think is the main reason for the change. I realize your point of view @Giant_Lizard is the more traditional MMO style, but I can tell you personally that about 10 friends of mine from previous MMO's, also played Morrowind, etc left the game over this issue. They were expecting a few things, one of which was being able to group with friends regardless of level, and the other was free roaming. Those 10 friends left because grouping with people if they were just a few levels off was not feasible.

The next step in this is to give us a means to repeat old quests we have already completed. If they were able to do this, the system would be complete. Don't lose hope. Part of your progression is fleshing out your skills, your gear, and your build.

maybe I'm too old and I like old-school games who knows. I was actually suggesting to some of my friends with who I played Guild Wars 2 (and who didn't like it because too flat to) to join me here because "I've found a game that reminds me of old-school MMORPGS". Damn, only a few weeks later, big change: now there is much less difference between players really annoying for me.

Cristiano wrote: »

This thread is a great reminder of why I absolutely hate reading game forums anymore. The update has been out for 5 minutes, and here we have yet another "x killed the game" thread. Bleh.

yeah, you should probably still stay away from forums, then.

This kind of feature existed in other games for years, it's not something new Zenimax invented. We all know how it works. I entered the game, tested it for an hour, I didn't like it and came here to express my opinion. Seems normal to me.

Normal perhaps, doesn't mean you're not still wrong to decide so flippantly and quickly based on so little time playing the game. Just because lots of people do it doesn't make them or you correct.

there was certainly a discernible difference when gaining power- a satisfaction with being able to measure yourself against mobs who were once difficult- you could feel your progress. now it seems it dosent matter. we ll see.

Look at it this way; all the quests and stuff you do as you play are working towards one thing: killing the Big Bad. With the old system -- area enemy levels gradually escalated as you worked your way through the story -- there was a need to work through everything, and if you skipped too much you'd end up being seriously outmatched to the point where even minor mobs could tear you several new ones in no time at all. It seemed that it was hard to get too overlevelled or to stay ahead of the game for too long (unless you were doing a lot of group dungeons), and the difficulty level was well balanced so that you didn't have to do everything, but you also couldn't skip too much -- by the time I finished my "native" area I was a few levels under the recommendation, and it got a bit fraught from time to time.

Now, presumably, other than having to do whatever prerequisites are required to trigger it, once you're off the starting island you can pretty much just walk to the final confrontation and take on the endgame and still have a small chance of success; sure, you'd not have many skills and it wouldn't be easy, but it's taken it from "impossible, both from a combat and plot progression point of view" to "the entire game is to some extent optional".

On the plus side, maybe I'll try speedrunning the game...

(Side note, which may explain why I'm so anti-scalaing: for me, the underlying stat mechanics, mucking around with gear sets, minmaxing, etc., are indescribably dull; I play the game to play the game -- people would probably recoil in horror from the assortment of gear I'm carrying and the skills I've got equipped, but it works for me and I'm far more interested in the journey and the challenges it presents than I am in the destination, and I suspect once I've finished the third faction I'll be more or less done with the game; PvP holds no interest for me, and the thought of grinding dungeons to get better gear to grind more dungeons sends me into a coma. I stopped playing Destiny once I'd reached the "hey, repeat this series of things on the offchance that you might get a slightly better thing than you have now" stage, The Division fell apart when all that was left was the Dark Zone and the re-running of the same dozen "dungeons", and my foray into MOBAs was very short lived.)

I understand why you may not like it.

It did not kill the game it is in fact good for the overall health of the game.

Console player here so I haven't been able to play with the changes but I'm divided on this one. Leveled mobs only worry me in one regard and that's due to playing EQ(evercamp) from launch +8 years) with the drive to force you to group and never solo. (this changed a bit later on) as long as I can still get on for an hour or two and play w/o spending an hour trying to get a group together just so I can play ALL THE TIME(or go grind trash mobs) I'll be fine. In fact I'll enjoy not having to skip quests or snore through silver/gold because of overleveling.

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

spectre303 wrote: »

Maybe try it for a few days first before dismissing it outright.

well, of course I will I won't just drop it like this. But, for the moment, I'm not that interested as before to come home and play. And that's not good.

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

I don't remember traditional Elder Scrolls games like this, honestly. Except Oblivion, which wasn't so bad made anyway (when I was strong, I was strong, even if the mobs had the same lvl as me). And anyway, the fact that others do it, don't make it right.

Auricle wrote: »

I think the title of this thread is a touch melodramatic. I know change is new and scary, but it's not as bad as all that. There are many ways to improve in strength besides just leveling.

well, of course that was my opinion. It killed the fun to me, so it basically killed the game. To me. I'm not so hungry to go back, login and play. Until yesterday I was only thinking about that.

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

It's been like, 8 minutes, and it's already "killed the game?"

for me yes. It could be even only 1 minute if I don't like a feature, it doesn't change with time.

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

I am confused, you have high CP players soloing vet dungeons already. So now the game isn't a faceroll and people complain. Yet posts all over the place that this game was too casual and easy and it sucks 1 shotting everything that you sneeze at.

I am glad its back to difficult, you should have played when it first opened, much more difficult than now.

Its literally been what? 5 hours and the game is broken and killed....

I actually played the beta too, at the time. Didn't like it, so I came back a few weeks ago. For me the feeling to increase my power and do new challenges really pleased me. Now there is no that feeling anymore, now everything is the same. I don't feel like I grow stronger.

JKith wrote: »

I actually like how Tamriel One is better because it's in line with how the other Elder Scrolls titles were... and how a real world would be...

I couldn't disagree more with those two statements. It's not in line with other Elder Scrolls titles and in a real (fantasy) world, the creatures in a area don't change based on you. They maintain the same level and you have to be stronger in order to defeat them.

Danikat wrote: »

I realise it's basically just a difference of opinion but I can't understand this attitude.

I don't see the point in levelling up simply for the sake of being a higher level and seeing bigger numbers on the screen. That's meaningless to me. If you're not having fun doing quests or whatever I can't imagine it's going to suddenly become fun because there are larger numbers involved. And if you are having fun doing it then it doesn't matter if you have to do it to move on to the next thing or not, you're having fun playing a game and that is ultimately the point of the whole thing.

For me levels are a form of gating - they force you to do content in the order the designers have decided on because if you try to deviate from that you'll be too low level and will die repeatedly. Now that's gone. If you want to play through all of the quests then you can, in whatever order you choose (following the storyline or not), if you only want to play certain parts then you can do that too (even if those parts are end-game dungeons which previously required you to grind for hours before you could even start). I see it as putting all of the choice over what to do in-game in the hands of the players, which is a good thing.

For me it was fun because of the exploration. I come to a new area, I analyze the fauna there and decide if it's too dangerous to continue or not. If not, I will probably go train myself, doing other missions and become stronger. Then I can try again. That's funny to me.

I can make a simple example that happened to me a few days ago. I was in a dungeon where a lot of mobs, same lvl as me, can attack you at the same time. I died many times. I then went to train myself, tried again and again...until I was strong enough and clear the dungeon all by myself. I was actually proud of myself. Now what? I guess if I go again to that dungeon I will die and die and die again...I didn't achieve anything, then. Where is my award?

Meh...

You supose to level up your skills and gear. You get this from leveling up and exploring. When you come back to that area, you should be able handle anything just like when you out level enemies. The knowledge of gear and skills is your reward. With the right skills and knowledge on how to take on the content is the progression of the game.