Scaling killed the game (for me)

Giant_Lizard

I don't know your feelings about it, but for me this "feature" really destroyed any fun I had in the game.

I'm still not even lvl 50, and I like to do quests and kill mobs in order to increase my lvl and become stronger. Now what? I don't even need it. I can go anywhere, my lvl will be scaled, or the mobs lvl will be, so I don't have any fun or need in doing it. It would be only for the skills.

What's the sense in that?

Also, when I encountered a strong mob (a group boss maybe) and I wanted to take it down alone, if I couldn't, I just made some lvl more, became stronger, went back and kicked his...butt. Now it's useless. If I can't kill a mob, I just can't. I will be forced to do it with a group of people. That's not funny.

Really, in the last weeks I logged in and played as much as I could, every time I had some free time to spare. Now, I logged in, went to some old-low-level zone, fought some monster and saw how long it takes me now to kill them...I just logged out. Now we have to be careful wherever we are, but not too much because there is no one who can really kill us. It's so "flat" that takes all the fun away.


My opinion, of course.

spectre303

Maybe try it for a few days first before dismissing it outright.

xRIVALENx

I can understand your view, there is really no goal to work towards when your characters power stays relatively the same from level 1 through 50. The game ultimately becomes stale unless you really enjoy the questing and exploration.

Sigtric

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

UndeadBlood

This is exactly what I was talking about in the Zone chat today, and people told me "thre was no gear progression anyways". Like wtf?

This will turn off new players like nothing else. My lvl 17 dk does almost as much dmg with critical rush, as my nb main. Any weapon, any gear is meaningless up until lvl 50.

You get your starter gear, and you can literally wear it up to lvl 50, cuz it scales anyways. People don't understand that it's boring as *** to not see your character grow in dmg/hp/ressources over time, as you get better and better gear and level up.


I honestly don't care about myself, but for new players, this will simply be dull.

Auricle

I think the title of this thread is a touch melodramatic. I know change is new and scary, but it's not as bad as all that. There are many ways to improve in strength besides just leveling.

MasterSpatula

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

People keep saying this, and it keeps only being true of the latter games, especially Oblivion. You know, Oblivion, the game with hundreds of different mods designed to fix the boring, stale level scaling that the majority of players hated?

Go into a Sixth House base when you're right off the boat in Morrowind. See how long you last.

UndeadBlood

spectre303 wrote: »

Maybe try it for a few days first before dismissing it outright.

There is no testing it before dismissing it outright. It is what it is. It's boring (atleast for new players).

You can literally wear grey level 4 gear up until lvl 50 and you'll be just fine. You know that feeling when you character gets more dmg with that new sword, and all of a sudden you wreck the enemies? That's gone, cuz your weapon will scale to crazy dmg, no matter which one you use.

Ep1kMalware

I hear you OP. Eso is an mmo that doesn't encourage you to become a better gamer. Instead, the 'better gamers' just end up getting nerfed

Ep1kMalware

I hear you OP. Eso is an mmo that doesn't encourage you to become a better gamer. Instead, the 'better gamers' just end up getting nerfed

Shad0wfire99

It's been like, 8 minutes, and it's already "killed the game?"

ThePaleItalian

I am confused, you have high CP players soloing vet dungeons already. So now the game isn't a faceroll and people complain. Yet posts all over the place that this game was too casual and easy and it sucks 1 shotting everything that you sneeze at.

I am glad its back to difficult, you should have played when it first opened, much more difficult than now.

Its literally been what? 5 hours and the game is broken and killed....

Sigtric

UndeadBlood wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about in the Zone chat today, and people told me "thre was no gear progression anyways". Like wtf?

This will turn off new players like nothing else. My lvl 17 dk does almost as much dmg with critical rush, as my nb main. Any weapon, any gear is meaningless up until lvl 50.

You get your starter gear, and you can literally wear it up to lvl 50, cuz it scales anyways. People don't understand that it's boring as *** to not see your character grow in dmg/hp/ressources over time, as you get better and better gear and level up.


I honestly don't care about myself, but for new players, this will simply be dull.

I think this feeling of progression, for a new player, and even me, who makes a ton of alts, will come from getting to a new zone and finding new and possibly exciting set pieces, because they didn't exist in the previous zone.

Having played a couple characters almost entirely in Cyrodiil where this scaling has been all alone, the feeling of progression (which I need, I get bored in most games at "end game" because "leveling" stops) was in getting new skills, achievements, ranks and rewards.

Totalitarian

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

Also, when I encountered a strong mob (a group boss maybe) and I wanted to take it down alone, if I couldn't, I just made some lvl more, became stronger, went back and kicked his...butt. Now it's useless. If I can't kill a mob, I just can't. I will be forced to do it with a group of people. That's not funny.

If all people had this way of thought, we wouldn't have players who've done vMOL HM, or vMOL. Or vMA, or vet trials, or vDSA.

You get better, you keep on trying, and eventually you do it.

I was *insert a nanometer here* this close to giving up on soloing nDSA, because I was getting overwhelmed by tons of mobs on the final boss. I had done solo'd everything else in the arena, and I couldn't do it. It took me a good 30 tries before I was able to develop good positioning (coupled with RNG) to finish the guy off. I was about to throw in the towel and get some people to finish the guy with me, but I didn't.

Danksta

UndeadBlood wrote: »

spectre303 wrote: »

Maybe try it for a few days first before dismissing it outright.

There is no testing it before dismissing it outright. It is what it is. It's boring (atleast for new players).

You can literally wear grey level 4 gear up until lvl 50 and you'll be just fine. You know that feeling when you character gets more dmg with that new sword, and all of a sudden you wreck the enemies? That's gone, cuz your weapon will scale to crazy dmg, no matter which one you use.

I don't think you understand how battle-leveling works when pertaining to armor. Each level I go up on a low level character my stats go down because my armor is that much further from my level. So yes, level of your armor does make a difference.

WhiteMage

Interesting, I haven't thought about it from a leveling-player's perspective. As a player at the level cap on 8/10 toons, I think it makes perfect sense. A problem every game had was that it didn't make any sense to struggle in the first zone but come back all god-mode at the level cap smiting everything with your weakest attack. Realistically, you aren't gaining great power, you are honing your skills and even the enemies from that first area could kill you if you did nothing. Balreth should be a legitimate threat, not something I could 2-hit for coming back later.

It fits well with "muh immershuns" at the level cap, though perhaps the leveling process starts to feel like a waste of time because of it.

The come-back-later-to-kill-it-when-I'm-god never felt like anything more than a side effect of the leveling system (of all games). I actually like it when a game encourages you to either REALLY step up your game or group up, with more emphasis on the group up (not so that it becomes trivial, like how Zerg-lings in PvP think the only way to play is with FAR superior numbers (yes, they actually think this. You can tell when they try to recruit in zone with low populations)) even though I, as a solo who often won't bother to find a group, usually elect the git gud method.

smacx250

UndeadBlood wrote: »

spectre303 wrote: »

Maybe try it for a few days first before dismissing it outright.

There is no testing it before dismissing it outright. It is what it is. It's boring (atleast for new players).

You can literally wear grey level 4 gear up until lvl 50 and you'll be just fine. You know that feeling when you character gets more dmg with that new sword, and all of a sudden you wreck the enemies? That's gone, cuz your weapon will scale to crazy dmg, no matter which one you use.

Actually, it is the opposite - gear quality is much more important now than it used to be, as it affects the overall scaling. Lower level characters could run around with pretty much anything and it didn't really matter. Not quite so much now (see other threads by low levels complaining things are much harder to kill now).

JKith

I actually like how Tamriel One is better because it's in line with how the other Elder Scrolls titles were... and how a real world would be... the fact that I couldn't go to a zone because they were level 40 and i was level 15 or how i could easily kill a daedra because he was level 5 and i was level 30 never made sense to me... Monsters in the real world (fantasy world of course) don't change based on YOUR level... you need to get better but the monsters stay the same.

While the progression aspect is lost, meaning you can't easily defeat something that is 10 levels lower than you,... this won't really be missed for me personally. Just try going out at level 1 in Morrowind and see how you fair with the wild animals that attack you... you basically die...

Leveling increases your stats, opens skills, activates passives and grants better weapons and armor... i don't see the lack of motivation for leveling!!

nimander99

You will spend far more of the game at "end game" then you will leveling to 50, the leveling process isn't gone the world is just completely open. Half a day in and this is fantastic imo! A free update that just gave us back all of Tamriel.

Lightninvash

I will like it(console so haven't gotten it yet boo) because all the quests I didn't do for being over leveled I can do and get rewarded for doing them. and play with my wife through quests instead of grinding.

Also it will have the feel of normal TES games where I can go wherever I want at any level and not worry about enemies being too strong or too weak. Heck I will be able to take my main to Arudion and grind if I choose to with this update or wherever I like. Also I wont have to go to DLC zones for rubidite since my crafter cant collect it yet. So to me it has its perks.

Danikat

I realise it's basically just a difference of opinion but I can't understand this attitude.

I don't see the point in levelling up simply for the sake of being a higher level and seeing bigger numbers on the screen. That's meaningless to me. If you're not having fun doing quests or whatever I can't imagine it's going to suddenly become fun because there are larger numbers involved. And if you are having fun doing it then it doesn't matter if you have to do it to move on to the next thing or not, you're having fun playing a game and that is ultimately the point of the whole thing.

For me levels are a form of gating - they force you to do content in the order the designers have decided on because if you try to deviate from that you'll be too low level and will die repeatedly. Now that's gone. If you want to play through all of the quests then you can, in whatever order you choose (following the storyline or not), if you only want to play certain parts then you can do that too (even if those parts are end-game dungeons which previously required you to grind for hours before you could even start). I see it as putting all of the choice over what to do in-game in the hands of the players, which is a good thing.

DM_ESO

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

I don't know your feelings about it

I started playing 2 weeks ago. All I've been doing is the story quests in each zone. I've had trouble where I have been out leveling everything easily, and never getting XP for my kills, or getting drops that were way out of my level range. Most of my gear is ~10 levels outdated.

Today I'm in a new zone. I'm no longer too high level like I've been most of the week, but I'm getting appropriate drops. When my friend logs in later, I'll be able to go and play with her without having to sacrifice my fun and progress.

I've been playing RPG games since the late 80s and I've come to the conclusion that vertical character progression sucks, and causes nothing but problems. Game that offer horizontal progression instead have always been much better.

Thankfully, a lot of games are coming around and switching to horizontal. Games like Final Fantasy Explorers, Monster Hunter and etc get rid of levels all together and are instead about earning skills and better gear. Guild Wars has switch completely to area based skill acquisition (after the base game). Dungeons and Dragons still has levels but is starting to go in that direction with it's 'bounded accuracy' implementation.

Drummerx04

I'll admit, it was relaxing to RP walk through glenumbra with boundless storm active and then walking through mobs and just watching them melt as you ignored them (Usually while chatting in TS during group formups).

I also remember the satisfaction of leveling and then being able to move on to a new zone and sort of enjoyed the progress limiter that it was when I joined the game. I had to run and quest and ultimately travel to foreign lands and it felt pretty cool. Now I guess it's just a quick port away for everyone. That adventuring and exploration I feel is pretty much removed by this.

On the flip side, my main missed most of the quests, and now they are at least somewhat relevant to my character level again. So in the end it doesn't affect me negatively, since I already experienced the progression.

I really can't fathom the need some people felt to be able to travel anywhere instantly. Isn't the journey as important as the destination?

smacx250

I've got some reservations, but overall I think I like it - my son to this day still ribbs me about dying to a lvl 4 mudcrab back at launch. But if repeated now, I could say it was a CP160 MUDCRAB!

ElBiggus

I second the OP; level scaling is stupid. If enemies are always an even match for you then the whole notion of levelling at all becomes utterly futile -- the "reach a new area, be a little underpowered for tackling the new foes, struggle, level up a bit, and eventually get an edge over them" dynamic is what keeps it interesting, and if the entire game is now "doesn't matter where you go or when you get there, all the enemies will be more or less evenly matched to you, and if you're struggling there's no point doing a few sidequests to gain an extra level or two because when you come back everything else will have levelled up too" then it's going to feel a little flat.

(I also enjoyed going back to my starting territory and being godlike -- sure, there was nothing to be practically gained from it, but it was fun, and surprising though it may seem, some of us like to have fun when we play a game.)

Logun24x7

Excuse me but isn't the leving in this game more connected with skill points and growing the flexibility of your character then the level.

Levels in MMO's are kind of ridiculous anyway when you think about it, so you leveled up ...so what ...you do more damage well guess what you go find harder mobs to kill but the net difficulty remains the same. The only thing levels really did was gate content to force the player experience the content in a specific order. So basicly any net gain in power is neutralized by the increasing HP of the mobs you face so your concept of power is just numbers on spreadsheet

Skill based MMO...IMHO always made more sense and thats basicly what we have now.

Taleof2Cities

UndeadBlood wrote: »

You get your starter gear, and you can literally wear it up to lvl 50, cuz it scales anyways. People don't understand that it's boring as *** to not see your character grow in dmg/hp/ressources over time, as you get better and better gear and level up.

Danksta wrote: »

I don't think you understand how battle-leveling works when pertaining to armor. Each level I go up on a low level character my stats go down because my armor is that much further from my level. So yes, level of your armor does make a difference.

^This.^

Please make sure you are aware of how scaling works before you comment on it in a thread ...

STEVIL

For lower level characters the "advancement feeling" is going to be in the case of more skills and passives unlocked.

Add-in the acquisition of set pieces and there you go.

but i thjink from what i see its really only the level dependent stuff that is leveling and its leveling based on what you get from th levels.

having white pieces withou them being sets will still leave you at lower magic and mower damage than someone with set pieces that boost those.

You still can beat the tougher content but not as quickly as you could and your ability on high-end content will be questionable.

or maybe i am wrong and we will see our first "hard mode hel-ra naked" and first "vmsa hard mode naked" any day now.

Lower level -advace is from skills.
higher levels it cp and "perfect sets"

Course we might start seeing more "unlocks at level 50" skills like the ults for weapons.

dodgehopper_ESO

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

This I think is the main reason for the change. I realize your point of view @Giant_Lizard is the more traditional MMO style, but I can tell you personally that about 10 friends of mine from previous MMO's, also played Morrowind, etc left the game over this issue. They were expecting a few things, one of which was being able to group with friends regardless of level, and the other was free roaming. Those 10 friends left because grouping with people if they were just a few levels off was not feasible.

The next step in this is to give us a means to repeat old quests we have already completed. If they were able to do this, the system would be complete. Don't lose hope. Part of your progression is fleshing out your skills, your gear, and your build.

Peekachu99

As others have pointed out, battle levelling uses a multiplicative factor to determine overall combat effectiveness. No, you will not pwn world bosses solo in your starter gray gear: your base, upon which said calculation is made, is simply too low to have any meaningful effectiveness. Even when levelling, you should always equip the best stuff that drops, and which is closest to your level. As gear is swapped, your stats change right there in the character panel.

Kinda hard to miss or misinterpret.

ElBiggus

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Please make sure you are aware of how scaling works before you comment on it in a thread ...

I have no idea what the actual mechanical underpinnings are, and nor do I care -- all I know is that yesterday I was struggling a bit as I'd skipped pretty much every sidequest in Cadwell's silver/gold dealy so I was underlevelled and underequipped for what I was coming up against (I'm about half way through gold, at around CP90 and facing CP160 foes) but I was enjoying seeing how far I could get relying on skill, tactics, and sheer stubbornness rather than brute force. A few times I was really struggling so I mopped up some sidequests to beef up my levels and skills, so I could keep the challenge at a tough but manageable level.

Today the guys that were giving me grief were no longer as much of a challenge because they'd effectively been brought down to my level, I no longer have any motivation to do the sidequests (apart from getting a few more CP so I can actually wear half the gear I've been given as quest rewards), and I'll probably finish gold without too much struggle and then get bored with the whole thing -- if I never run into a "holy heck, this is getting really dicey" or a "ha, suck on my monstrous staff of power you measly little scrub" moment then what's the point?