Scaling killed the game (for me)

Faulgor

skyprowerb14_ESO wrote: »

The ultimate fact is that Elder Scrolls has never done level scaling right. Daggerfall's level scaling was compounded by painful difficulty (admittedly the game is basically a first-person roguelike), Oblivion was an absolute mess, and Skyrim's level scaling was a decent chunk of the reason that game was so bland (you know how everyone went back to talking about FONV a few months after FO4 came out? That's what would have happened to Skyrim had it not been hyped to hell and back).

It did happen, at least among the crowd that has been with TES before Skyrim. It's just that we were outnumbered by OMGURDDRAGUNS!1.

Regarding the scaling in ESO, I 100% support One Tamriel. To me it seems like the best possible compromise for an Elder Scrolls (mostly meaning Morrowind) experience.

1. No more difference in difficulty of the same mob type - a mudcrab is a mudcrab.
2. No more artificial barriers such as exp and hit penalties when facing enemies "out of your range". Personally I like taking on harder challenges on a low level, but ESO always actively discouraged that.
3. Keep progression alive through skills and gear upgrades, even with scaled attributes (which have been gutted since Skyrim anyway).

I'm certainly looking forward to leveling new characters now, whereas previously I dreaded the thought of having to drag them through the same content I did over and over again. I look forward to going to areas I couldn't previously with a low level character and gaining new skills and passives as I progress through the content I chose. And of course I look forward to taking my max level characters to areas they "out-leveled" a long time ago and still find useful activities to do.

Naturally ESO is a lot more forgiving in its difficulty than Morrowind was, but One Tamriel is the best approximation I could have asked for.

BlackEar

Gamers are one of the most conservative bunch out there!

None detest changes as much as gamers, it is quite astounding.
Give it a few days before you dismiss it!
This is an ES game as well, not just an MMO, and we still have progression gear wise and champion-point wise. The first 50 levels are all about exploring.

Giant_Lizard

AKSb16_ESO2 wrote: »

I think the scaling was done wrong. It should be like it is in Guild Wars.
Do not scale the lowbies up, scale the veterans down to the levels of the specific area.
Loot is for your specific level of course.
This would be much better and the lowlevels still have the feeling of getting stronger when levelling.

I played Guild Wars 2 and I didn't like that scaling either. I don't like scaling at all, I think it's unrealistic. I liked the way it was before

Giant_Lizard

BlackEar wrote: »

Gamers are one of the most conservative bunch out there!

None detest changes as much as gamers, it is quite astounding.
Give it a few days before you dismiss it!
This is an ES game as well, not just an MMO, and we still have progression gear wise and champion-point wise. The first 50 levels are all about exploring.

I disagree. Most of the changes done with this upgrade please me, only the scaling is something I don't like. And I don't need more time, I've played other games with scaling features and I already know how it is and that I don't like it. I'm not gonna change my mind on this, I will just try to see if I can get used to...but I'm not optimistic.

AndyTGD

I really, really like what ZOS have done with this update. They've opened up the world and it feels much more alive now, with tons of players running around and mobs in starter areas brought up to your level - making going back to old areas for a bit of a brawl or mat harvesting possible and fun.

The progression isn't the conventional grind-a-thon that we're used to in MMOs (and the classic ES series), but that's ok in my estimation. There's still progression in a multitude of other areas and combat is still enjoyable - more enjoyable in starter areas, which I can go back to now without re-rolling another toon! Personally, I wonder if its possible if ZOS could add an optional difficulty slider, now that scaling is in place. It would be nice to have some control over how challenging the mobs are. In the end, this update is and was going to be incredibly divisive, but I think they did a great job with it. The conventional MMO formula is in dire need of a shake up imo.

hrothbern

Good reading
most things I could think off already being said

1. We can join everywhere in questing with anybody we like.
2. Lvl 50 characters can catch up questing and go grinding for sets of their liking with satisfying nodes and XP (CP).
3. We can find everywhere again NPC's/Monsters with a drop rate for unique achievement items

Basically the vertical progression of lvl 1-50 has been removed.
Only the vertical progression of CP's is left.
And you have with all the new sets a wealth of horizontal progression from sets, besides ofc your skill leveling.

So all in all I think this One-Tamriel is great !


The only negative of the old system that One Tamriel did not adress, is that a slow levelling character, doing all the quests one by one is still punished with the set items he will pick up along the way.
When that character has become lvl 50 he can decon all the set items gathered, and start all over again to grind for his desired sets at CP 160 level.
A character that fast grinds to lvl 50 (and CP 160 if not yet on a CP 160+ account) and then goes slowly through the full questing content will gather set items he can keep on using.

=> mindless fast levelling is still favored by the set item drop mechanics !!!
I cannot believe that this is truly the intention of ZOS.
And it cannot be too difficult to think out something, that adresses this as well.

EDIT:
Hint: just allow Crafters to be able to upgrade set items to CP 160 level

xRIVALENx

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

I don't know your feelings about it, but for me this "feature" really destroyed any fun I had in the game.

I'm still not even lvl 50

Honestly you lost all credibility there. Hitting lvl 50 takes about 20 hours of game play. Not grinding, just regular game play. So you're telling me you haven't even played for a full day and your opinion about the way the game works should matter? Step off that soap box before you hurt yourself.

I have a character with 150 days played. And several 30 day alts. The update just came out. Cool it on how you think it killed the game when you haven't even played long enough to know what the game is.

Casually playing I certainly don't hit level 50 in 20 hours, I currently have several characters above level 50. You are welcome to explain though, maybe I am missing out on some exceptional method to leveling this fast without grinding which would be excellent in my opinion. The grind can get boring at times

Cherryblossom

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

I disagree, in the other games, you walked into some areas and if you weren't equipped well enough you would die! Now it doesn't matter.

Wolfhammer

UndeadBlood wrote: »

This is exactly what I was talking about in the Zone chat today, and people told me "thre was no gear progression anyways". Like wtf?

This will turn off new players like nothing else. My lvl 17 dk does almost as much dmg with critical rush, as my nb main. Any weapon, any gear is meaningless up until lvl 50.

You get your starter gear, and you can literally wear it up to lvl 50, cuz it scales anyways. People don't understand that it's boring as *** to not see your character grow in dmg/hp/ressources over time, as you get better and better gear and level up.


I honestly don't care about myself, but for new players, this will simply be dull.

I can see the OP's point and yours 100% but I have something to add being a lowbie with nothing at lvl 50 and beyond yet.

My gear did scale absolutely, but scaled individually for each piece... The new difficulty for even overland normal mobs has made me look at my gear in a more serious way.. So I ditched some white and green stuff and sorted out some blue and I got stronger. There's even a stats mod indicator on the character screen now that shows which stat will increase and decrease if you wear the gear you're currently mousing over.

Basically I'm looking at this as a new baseline for my level which I can improve through better gear..

Not saying I'm 100% happy with this change however, but it is what it is... I have some real trouble in delves with even the weakest mobs having 3x the HP as myself and hit a lot harder than I could...

Hopefully I'll get more organised with my gear and narrow that gap somewhat and I'll certainly be grouping more (which is good thing right?)..

~Wolf

Conquistador

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

I don't know your feelings about it, but for me this "feature" really destroyed any fun I had in the game.

I'm still not even lvl 50, and I like to do quests and kill mobs in order to increase my lvl and become stronger. Now what? I don't even need it. I can go anywhere, my lvl will be scaled, or the mobs lvl will be, so I don't have any fun or need in doing it. It would be only for the skills.

What's the sense in that?

Also, when I encountered a strong mob (a group boss maybe) and I wanted to take it down alone, if I couldn't, I just made some lvl more, became stronger, went back and kicked his...butt. Now it's useless. If I can't kill a mob, I just can't. I will be forced to do it with a group of people. That's not funny.

Really, in the last weeks I logged in and played as much as I could, every time I had some free time to spare. Now, I logged in, went to some old-low-level zone, fought some monster and saw how long it takes me now to kill them...I just logged out. Now we have to be careful wherever we are, but not too much because there is no one who can really kill us. It's so "flat" that takes all the fun away.


My opinion, of course.

I agree 100%.

Asardes

They should make a special category on this forum for the posts that begin with "game is dying because of X" or "game is dead already because of Y" or "game will die of a slow and painful death because of Z". The number of such posts would be probably constant and quite high over the last 2.5 years. Somehow though the game is still very much alive. And now it's much better than before IMO. In fact, the old fixed scaling made zones "dead" halfway trough them, because you had outleveled them by 5-6, gaining no loot and no XP from kills, and meager XP from quests. Happened to me on 4 chars and then decided not to level the other 4. Once you hit 50 and had CP 160+ (about a couple of weeks of normal gameplay at most, with the current XP gain curve and sources) everything but the DLCs, the last 2 zones in "Silver" and "Gold" were "dead" from this POV as well. Now nowhere is "dead" since formerly starter areas now are auto-scaled and they drop good sets to boot.

Giant_Lizard

Asardes wrote: »

They should make a special category on this forum for the posts that begin with "game is dying because of X" or "game is dead already because of Y" or "game will die of a slow and painful death because of Z". The number of such posts would be probably constant and quite high over the last 2.5 years. Somehow though the game is still very much alive. And now it's much better than before IMO. In fact, the old fixed scaling made zones "dead" halfway trough them, because you had outleveled them by 5-6, gaining no loot and no XP from kills, and meager XP from quests. Happened to me on 4 chars and then decided not to level the other 4. Once you hit 50 and had CP 160+ (about a couple of weeks of normal gameplay at most, with the current XP gain curve and sources) everything but the DLCs, the last 2 zones in "Silver" and "Gold" were "dead" from this POV as well. Now nowhere is "dead" since formerly starter areas now are auto-scaled and they drop good sets to boot.

You didn't even read my post, didn't you?

Lord_Eomer

For me scaling is best, before there was no reason for me to go my Alliance zones to compete old quests or grind but now i have a reason which is SCALING...

Was spending most of time in scaled zones only..

Giant_Lizard

Anyway, I made other tests. I went to a low-level (well, old low-level) public dungeon to try to clean it out all by myself. I can't anymore I HAVE to do it with a group now, it's impossible to do it alone.

So, with this, solo play is actually really dead, we can't do everything alone, we are forced to find a group. That's another negative side of this new feature. We can't simply become stronger and do it.

I'm a nightblade, I liked to play alone.

Asardes

Yes, I've read both the OP and the subsequent comments and I disagree. IMO becoming stronger than the mobs by overleveling them takes all fun out of the game and lulls you into a false sense of complacency. And then you actually go to a group dungeon and get rekt. I PuG a lot.

Bryanonymous

I like it.

Wolfhammer

skywarnmc27 wrote: »

Fresh off the boat I am CP 160, why even level in this game now. No point to it, nothing to gain besides skill points. Hell attributes do not matter since your scaled to CP 160.

Attributes do matter since scaling is determined by them... I up my attributes and my scaling does up..

If I put 2 attribute points into Magika, my Magika goes up still but from a higher base-line

RinaldoGandolphi

Sigtric wrote: »

Now it is much more in-line with how a traditional Elder Scrolls game works, and makes it more rewarding (xp and gear wise) to visit places you would have other wise been too high of a level to gain anything from.

This is great for me.

Not really. In Morrowind there were places you simply didn't go until you were high enough level with the right gear or you got rext.

Oblivion started the whole "Every enemy scales with your level no matter where you are" and it was so universally hated and rejected to the point mods came out to change that behavior, and with Skyrim Bethesda backed off that to a large degree. As the enemies aroudn Whiterun will stay low level despite you being at level 50 as an example. There were a few things level scaled but far far less then Oblivion.

Its a mixed bag for me, i personally don't have any issues with how they changed the scaling, but i can see and understand the view point of those who do. It feels like their character has simply never gotten stronger, and even earning more CP doesn't make it feel like your character has progressed at all. I can see both sides.

Faulgor

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

Anyway, I made other tests. I went to a low-level (well, old low-level) public dungeon to try to clean it out all by myself. I can't anymore I HAVE to do it with a group now, it's impossible to do it alone.

So, with this, solo play is actually really dead, we can't do everything alone, we are forced to find a group. That's another negative side of this new feature. We can't simply become stronger and do it.

I'm a nightblade, I liked to play alone.

I just completed Seeker's Archive in Craglorn solo ... which is explicitly "group content". Sure, it's hard, but possible.

If you think you can't do it on your own, you actually still have room to progress.

Tabbycat

I think I will have to play more to make a decision on this. I was playing my level 6 Breton Templar in Stros M'Kai and she still felt stronger than the monsters there. I had to do more than just one shot them but never felt like I was in any real danger. but that was also my experience pretty much prior to One Tamriel. I think I'll have to get a bit further into the game before I can really make a judgement call on it.

Silver_Strider

While I don't agree with the OP, I do understand how he feels.
A lot of people enjoy the leveling experience and like the feeling of overcoming challenges in the leveling process so this synch system is a slap to the face for them.
I don't think it will kill the game (that will happen when ZOS makes exclusive crown crate sets that are BiS, or lock DLC behind them) but it isn't the best option they could have gone with, nor is it the worst.

RinaldoGandolphi

The only part of One Tamriel that irks me is the cross faction stuff, Storywise this kills the 3 Banners War completely.

Daggerfall is being occupied by EP and AD soldiers. Auridon is being occupied by EP and DC soldiers, Mournhold is being occupised by DC and Ad soliders...wth is anyone fighting for?

Play Skyrim, you will be wandering around the world and see The Stormcloaks come across the Thalmor and immediately they are fighting to death...no way the Stormcloaks are going to allow the Thalmor to walk freely in their country.

But in ESO, the Lion Guard simply doesn't care that a former EP Emp and EP solider is walkiong around freely in their capital...who gives a damn right? TES has ALWAYS been about the story, and now the Alliance War has no story...not as long as the guards and such don't care that enemies to their country are occupying their lands and no one gives a rat about it.

its relaly laughable at this point. Look One tamriel is not all bad, they have done a lot of stuff I like. Many of the changes im excited about, but they could have implemented cross faction without killing the lore of the 3 Banners War off completely...like i dunno...say the Lion Guard will want to kill EP and Ad players on sight because ya know...they are currently the enemy to their country, to their government, and currently they are in a war with them at the moment maybe? lol....

What going on right now would be the equivalent of Ulfic Stormcloak bending his knee to Thalmor (Simply not gonna happen, he would rather die first)

Tabbycat

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The only part of One Tamriel that irks me is the cross faction stuff, Storywise this kills the 3 Banners War completely.

Daggerfall is being occupied by EP and AD soldiers. Auridon is being occupied by EP and DC soldiers, Mournhold is being occupised by DC and Ad soliders...wth is anyone fighting for?

Play Skyrim, you will be wandering around the world and see The Stormcloaks come across the Thalmor and immediately they are fighting to death...no way the Stormcloaks are going to allow the Thalmor to walk freely in their country.

But in ESO, the Lion Guard simply doesn't care that a former EP Emp and EP solider is walkiong around freely in their capital...who gives a damn right? TES has ALWAYS been about the story, and now the Alliance War has no story...not as long as the guards and such don't care that enemies to their country are occupying their lands and no one gives a rat about it.

its relaly laughable at this point. Look One tamriel is not all bad, they have done a lot of stuff I like. Many of the changes im excited about, but they could have implemented cross faction without killing the lore of the 3 Banners War off completely...like i dunno...say the Lion Guard will want to kill EP and Ad players on sight because ya know...they are currently the enemy to their country, to their government, and currently they are in a war with them at the moment maybe? lol....

What going on right now would be the equivalent of Ulfic Stormcloak bending his knee to Thalmor (Simply not gonna happen, he would rather die first)

I'm not really sure it's all that different than Cadwell's Gold and Silver. The only difference, of course, is that you aren't "disguised" by Cadwell so the other faction thinks you are part of it and now you can see all the other factions.

People complained they couldn't understand why they would want to help out the opposite faction by doing Cadwells quests. I suppose it is all optional as you don't have to quest in the other factions territories.

It also wouldn't surprise me at all if Sheogorath was involved in all this. You know he would enjoy the enemy being right under their noses without them even noticing.

Knootewoot

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

Anyway, I made other tests. I went to a low-level (well, old low-level) public dungeon to try to clean it out all by myself. I can't anymore I HAVE to do it with a group now, it's impossible to do it alone.

So, with this, solo play is actually really dead, we can't do everything alone, we are forced to find a group. That's another negative side of this new feature. We can't simply become stronger and do it.

I'm a nightblade, I liked to play alone.

I am a nightblade also. I solod a few public dungeons yesterday and even solod some group content in Craglorn (one quest was the one where you have to gather 3 elements and enter some huge rock).

It's still doable.

But...., although i am more os a soloist myself, public dungeons should imho be more difficult then they were. I never wanted to be able to solo everything. All (or most) overland quests are already solo.

I_killed_Vivec

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

In Morrowind there were places you simply didn't go until you were high enough level with the right gear or you got rext.

Not just places. The first time you see a Golden Saint or an Ogrim in the wild... you know you can't handle that until you level up and get more powerful.

The changes were supposed to make it more interesting for high CP level players returning to low-level zones as well as to allow low level players to explore high level zones. I've seen some high-level players complain that they have lost "god mode" when they return to their starter zones... all I can think is that they are pitiful players. You might have been able to blow away a low level mob with a single light attack... now it takes two heavy attacks. Big deal, still god mode, still lacking a challenge.

I can appreciate how low level players might want a sense of progression - after all VR were removed because people didn't like the massive steps between levels of progression. CP drip feed progression, you don't really notice it, but it has a big effect on capability.

I have been more frustrated with this game since the update than I have been for a very long time. There are reasons why I choose not to go back to some of the zones - they frustrate the hell out of me because you think you know where you're going only for a cliff to loom out of the jungle and you find you were going the wrong way. Not amusing when you're running round a zone trying to do the dolmen...

And that's another thing, "do three dolmen" is a euphemism for "waste half an hour". In fact if you're unlucky and go to the wrong dolmen first you could be waiting for 45 minutes to get all three...

And then, even with "scaling", you can easily solo them...

And then you get three cups of tea as the "reward"?

Where's the fear in the game? It should be that the roads are (relatively) safe, but go off the beaten track and you could be in trouble... whatever your level.

Mandragora

There are a lot of problems, but seriously - I do level up, so I have no idea what OP is talking about... that you don't see numbers over mobs? I don't think RP players do mind that and what kind of progress you are talking about? The one in Wrothgar public dungeon? to get 10 levels in 1 hour? I'm sorry this is a joke
None of your arguments are valid ...

Well if they wouldn't upset RP players by adding crates, atleast they would have support from the players, who actually asked for this...

DeadlyRecluse

I was worried about the scaling, but now I love it. Diverse gear, and the enemies I have to kill to get it are slightly harder to kill than a tissue!

The biggest disadvantage I see is that I am hearing some complaining from people on new-new characters that it's much more difficult, event with CP, on low levels. I haven't tested it myself, but it seems possible that the scaling needs to be more forgiving up to level 10 or so, just so people--especially brand new players--have a little time to sort out gear and whatnot.

Asardes

Did the fighters's guild daily quest yesterday just to see how it was. Got a mission to clear the 3 dolmens in Bangkorai - I don't know it's the same for every player but that would be pretty stupid, since dolmens are still so easy that if the crowd is big they will be just snuffed out before you reach them and don't get credit for it. Happened to me yesterday, where I was sprinting like crazy between 3 dolmens, trying to reach them before they were cleared. 2 are relatively close to shrines, but one is in some daedric ruins, far from any shrine. In the end I realized that you don't actually need to clear each dolmen individually, but can as well clear the same dolmen 3 times and still get credit for it. At least I got a purple Vampire Ring (one of the new sets) from a chest. From another I got another green ring from the same set.

I've spent something like 20-30 minutes doing that quest, the same time I will spend doing a hard group dungeon. But the rewards were laughable: 300 gold and some other misc items. Totally not worth doing those quests. You're better of grinding daedra in IC for fully scalable rewards - you can stack your TV gained at low level in the bank then buy sets at max level later and/or with your max level chars.

Cously

I love the scaling. It made the game brand new to me. Do you know how much I hate Orc land? Now I don't have to spend hours farming mats there. Content is now somewhat difficult to solo, it took me 10 minutes to finish one boss in Stormhaven, well I was in tank spec so that might been it but it is definately a break from facerolling one shot everything.

Whilst scaling can be a frustrating experience for new players, especially the ones under lv.50 who started ESO a few weeks ago and now see a ramp up in difficult, it really made the whole game relevant to me, a maxed level player. You break that lv.50 barrier quickly nowadays, but when you get max level and be stuck in the same zones because the old ones sucked, it really KILLS the game from a content perspective.

Now we can be in all zones, earning xp, loot and having some group fun. All alliances together, lots of drops. What's not to like? Sorry, new players, you will have to adapt. Scaling is the best thing that happened to this game and made 80% of the content stop being stagnant.

jircris11

i am enjoying the lvl scaleing mainly because i can now play with my friends who are lower level without killing their XP.