"It will always be items worse than what you can craft" topic

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2016

Asardes wrote: »

The discussion has clearly gone of the rails here:

1) XP modifiers that are sold for crowns are not P2W. You can level a char very fast even without grinding. In fact it's better that you don't grind, and level trough exploring and doing quests, as you will have much more skills to level/morph and passives to unlock in your skill lines doing that.

Dont your skills and passives level through experience? Dont you need the same amount of experience to level grinding or questing? I know this is sort of off topic but i cant for the life of me figure out why this would be true.

The only possible exceptions i see are if you were doing quest that levels a specific skill line.

Anyone help me out here?

Asardes · September 2016

In deed, most do level trough the XP you get, but unless you have enough skill points to unlock them, you don't really get very far. In a straight forward overlook.
Each class skill takes 2 skill points for the ultimate, 10 skill points for the other active skills and their morphs, 8 skill points for the passives, both ranks. A total of 20 points. You have 3 classes.
Each weapon skill takes 10 skill points for the active skills and their morphs, 10 skill points for the passives, both ranks. A total of 20 points. And they are adding an ultimate and if you want a morph 2 points, 22 in total. You will likely level 2 of those.
Each armor skill line needs 2 points for the active skill, another 11 for all ranks of the passive. A total of 13 points.
Racial passives are 9 skill points.

So a total of 60+44+13+9 = 126 skill points for a complete build IMO. Stamina builds are a little less, assuming they are not using most of their class skills, but most passives are still required to be effective.

You get only 64 points trough straight grinding. You can barely spec what you need, and your build will have little flexibility as a result.

In addition to that:
- mages guild still requires you to gather books - you need to sweep your home alliance as well as silver to gain enough reputation for meteor, or the dungeons and Cyrodiil and 1-2 silver zones.
- fighters guild reputation is gained 1p at a time by killing daedra/undead, 3p for killing elite and another fixed amount by clearing dolmens. (both will increase also from dailies in One Tamriel)
- alliance war skill lines are increased by AP that are gained doing PvP
- undaunted skill line increases by completing dungeon achievements and daily pledges
- legerdemain (assuming you need the first passive for better sneak) by committing crimes ex. laundering goods

None of the reputation of those skills is affected by XP modifiers. And without the modifiers you gain plenty of XP from training to actually "saturate" the skills and the abilities (fully train them before you can unlock another).

Teridaxus · September 2016

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/de/discussion/290066/data-mining-icons-items-showcase-v2-6-update-12

That scroll was datamined a while ago actually.
Potions, poisons can be found there too and some other data mining blogs shows more potions and poisons too.

The stats are unknown of those, but who knows. People called other people crazy too for mentioning b2p or f2p in 2014.

Juhasow · September 2016

Before people start cry about this we shold wait and see how big drop rate this scrolls will have. It's only 30 minutes so to become grind beast You would need a lot of this scrolls and from what I saw on PTS there are 3 versions of this scrolls 50/100/150% so I think 150% scroll will drop very rarely . I dont think this scrolls change a lot in grinding and I doubt that from nowhere people will start to get cp cap in month.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2016

Asardes wrote: »

In deed, most do level trough the XP you get, but unless you have enough skill points to unlock them, you don't really get very far. In a straight forward overlook.
Each class skill takes 2 skill points for the ultimate, 10 skill points for the other active skills and their morphs, 8 skill points for the passives, both ranks. A total of 20 points. You have 3 classes.
Each weapon skill takes 10 skill points for the active skills and their morphs, 10 skill points for the passives, both ranks. A total of 20 points. And they are adding an ultimate and if you want a morph 2 points, 22 in total. You will likely level 2 of those.
Each armor skill line needs 2 points for the active skill, another 11 for all ranks of the passive. A total of 13 points.
Racial passives are 9 skill points.

So a total of 60+44+13+9 = 126 skill points for a complete build IMO. Stamina builds are a little less, assuming they are not using most of their class skills, but most passives are still required to be effective.

You get only 64 points trough straight grinding. You can barely spec what you need, and your build will have little flexibility as a result.

In addition to that:
- mages guild still requires you to gather books - you need to sweep your home alliance as well as silver to gain enough reputation for meteor, or the dungeons and Cyrodiil and 1-2 silver zones.
- fighters guild reputation is gained 1p at a time by killing daedra/undead, 3p for killing elite and another fixed amount by clearing dolmens. (both will increase also from dailies in One Tamriel)
- alliance war skill lines are increased by AP that are gained doing PvP
- undaunted skill line increases by completing dungeon achievements and daily pledges
- legerdemain (assuming you need the first passive for better sneak) by committing crimes ex. laundering goods

None of the reputation of those skills is affected by XP modifiers. And without the modifiers you gain plenty of XP from training to actually "saturate" the skills and the abilities (fully train them before you can unlock another).

Interesting. I guess we disagree on how many skill points a complete build is because I have never seen the need to buy all the skills in a skill line. And i would probably also argue it is quicker to grind for a day or two to 50 then Go back and fill all the other stuff in. But that is just personal preferance as well.

I just thought maybe i was missing something. Thanks!

Asardes · September 2016

Your approach may work better with One Tamriel since you will still get XP from mobs when you go back to pick those shards, books and skill points from the areas you skipped. With the outgoing system however, speccing as you go and having the skills on the bar at all times worked like a charm for me. My mature but inactive chars are doing writs crafter duty with all the skill points and proficiency gained from deconstructing trash while they leveled and explored. 5 minutes per day per toon, all surveys on the main that collects them in 15. My account is thought out more as an assembly line for maximum efficiency and resource availability in the long run. Once I have 8 mature toons with everything I will ever need specced I will be satisfied.

DocFrost72 · September 2016

Valen_Byte wrote: »

@Cherryblossom 50% xp from pot, 70% xp from training gear, is 130%...that is not better than 150%

70 percent is all blue. You push that closer to 80 with purple gear (we're leaving out gold, though it is possible)

Let's just say 70 for convenience (and to hammer home my point...) plus you get 4 pots for one round of crafting. Alternatively, Joe shmoe gets lucky and finds one of these 2.5x scrolls.

After the 50 minute timer for ONE of your four potions, you're looking at (assuming a 100%linear xp gain) you get a flat 120% boost to xp earned. So to visualize, you went from 1000xp to 2200xp. With 1/4 of your potion suplies. That is over 50 minutes.

The average shmuck who got lucky and has one of these scrolls and isn't a crafter gets 30 minutes (60%uptime) of 2.5x xp. So for .6 of your time, you're getting 2.5x, which is better than 2.2 for sure. However, you eventually will run out. The remaining 20 minutes (40%) that you spend grinding the exact same stuff as the crafter in example one, however, bring you DOWN.

So, the first person got a 2.2x multiplier the whole time. The scroll gets (.6x2.5)+(.4x1)=1.9x over 50 minutes.

The crafter gets more return after the first *** QUARTER of his gains.

So if anyone has some sort of conterargument to this, please feel free to tag me. Crafters not only get the vastly better deal, but the gods cursed scrolls are an RNG BASED DROP.

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

@Cherryblossom
i not forget about training gear
it doesnt matter
every player can craft it and use it even those donaters who will use this grand scrolls

i dont know why you mentioned training gear at all

MidknightWolf · September 2016

Any company that wants to keep their cash shop 100% optional needs to be extremely careful not to cross the line where something in the shop is more effective than player created material. Zos please remove everything that is more powerful than player created objects from the crown shop. It seriously is things like that, that kill amazing games such as this.

Im a HUGE ESO fan and when I see cash shop items trumping player made items, I cry inside knowing its the beginning to the end. This coming from a man who condemns doom Sayers and never like to speak negatively.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this along

Tandor · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

craft bags is PAY to comfort
grand scrolls is PAY to progress

each next step closer and closer to PAY to win

Given that neither gives the user any advantage over a non-user, it's difficult to see how either constitutes a step closer to P2W.

Cherryblossom · September 2016

Valen_Byte wrote: »

@Cherryblossom 50% xp from pot, 70% xp from training gear, is 130%...that is not better than 150%

@Valen_Byte

You are only thinking armour, DW 9 piece's with training white is 11%, so thats 99% +50% from Pot, so 149% from just white gear.

have a nice day, your welcome.

Cherryblossom · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Cherryblossom
i not forget about training gear
it doesnt matter
every player can craft it and use it even those donaters who will use this grand scrolls

i dont know why you mentioned training gear at all

because it shows you can craft better for XP gains.

I'm one of ZOS biggest critics, look back through my posts! But in this case you are simply wrong.

personally I would like to see better things in the Crown Store, not stat improvement but better outfits and the like, but what I want would involve an over haul of their system.

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

@Cherryblossom
i know i can craft training gear and i use id for grinding ofc

still its not linked with the matter of my topic
and math from first post will remain the same with training gear on me or not

DocFrost72 · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Cherryblossom
i know i can craft training gear and i use id for grinding ofc

still its not linked with the matter of my topic
and math from first post will remain the same with training gear on me or not

Your whole argument is crafters get shafted. He showed you craters don't, I showed you they don't, and then you call "pay to progress"

Bro, stop trolling. Please.

Xjcon · September 2016

If it helps new players catch up I see no issue.

Troneon · September 2016

There is also no way to currently get crafting bags without subscribing....

Plus they are adding casino style gambling to the store now...

RIP

DRXHarbinger · September 2016

@Lumbermill_Emperor are you one of these guys who has 100s of perfect roe and just worried you're not going to make any gold selling pots now? Still not getting this.

Fact is you don't need to spend anything to get a monster xp boost.

And what was the math....however many scrolls it was to get 100 cp. More than all the dlc combined.

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

@DocFrost72
no
RTFM first post again, my whole point in there, in last part
pretty clear for everyone who can read

Milvan · September 2016

This is whole post is soo wrong that it makes Talos cry.

To all people quiting and raging because of crown boxes and the new experience scroll, can I have your stuff?

psychotic13 · September 2016

Who cares? It makes leveling alts faster it doesn't make them any better combat wise.

150% XP scroll + Psijic + full training gear = levelled alt in 5 mins, sounds good to me!

Rohamad_Ali · September 2016

My opinion on this is I would like to see ZOS give crafters somethings being better then what's in the crown crate and keeping there word . I personally do not like RNG to buy items so it's not for me to try it . I think it is important to stay true to your word .

randolphbenoit · September 2016

I think its meant be 50% not 150%

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

@randolphbenoit
no lol
there is 3 type of scrolls on PTS
50
100
150
%

ThePaleItalian · September 2016

@Lumbermill_Emperor

The sky isn't falling, calm down Chicken Little.

Reading through this entire post people are constantly proving you wrong. Now you are just trolling and arguing for the sake of it..

Personofsecrets · September 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Wow!!!

This is huge and it is complete and total BS. Is this for real?

@ZOS_GinaBruno is this an accident or has ZOS officially gone P2W.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw ,

I really wasn't joking all of the times that I told you and others that we were on our way to P2W. I don't even care about P2W, but the signs were clear that P2W was going to happen.

P2W wasn't so obvious in the past, but did exist in spirit. Using EXP scrolls instead of potions saved gold, Crown repair kits are fast to use and best for high level speed runs, horse training that saves a 180 day grind, the Crafting Bag gives players a tremendous advantage.

I have a question for everyone now.

Did anyone honestly not think that we would go down the slippery slope of P2W? Did you really think that those who monetize the game wouldn't take advantage of our bloated Crown amounts?

They wan't us to feel like we have tons of Crowns and they want us to use them all and then bloat our Crown numbers back up with flash sales and the, basically, mandatory sub fee. The best way for them to make us use Crowns is by offering an advantage for us to use them.

Again, I don't care about P2W, but everyone who does has to get really smart really quick and see exactly what is going on. Stop being blinded by your love of the game and support of the devs. Start to see when people are trying to empty your pockets by putting crowns in them.

Think of it this way. Small instances of P2W may not seem that bad, but wouldn't you rather strike a weed at it's root rather than let it bloom and spread? This specific experience scroll is small potatoes in my opinion, but don't you wish that you had been a voice against, lets say, the P2W crafting bag as a way of preventing future P2W from being implemented?

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

@ThePaleItalian

read topic again
there is near 30% of posts who agreed with me

Mx13 · September 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Wow!!!

This is huge and it is complete and total BS. Is this for real?

@ZOS_GinaBruno is this an accident or has ZOS officially gone P2W.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw ,

I really wasn't joking all of the times that I told you and others that we were on our way to P2W. I don't even care about P2W, but the signs were clear that P2W was going to happen.

P2W wasn't so obvious in the past, but did exist in spirit. Using EXP scrolls instead of potions saved gold, Crown repair kits are fast to use and best for high level speed runs, horse training that saves a 180 day grind, the Crafting Bag gives players a tremendous advantage.

I have a question for everyone now.

Did anyone honestly not think that we would go down the slippery slope of P2W? Did you really think that those who monetize the game wouldn't take advantage of our bloated Crown amounts?

They wan't us to feel like we have tons of Crowns and they want us to use them all and then bloat our Crown numbers back up with flash sales and the, basically, mandatory sub fee. The best way for them to make us use Crowns is by offering an advantage for us to use them.

Again, I don't care about P2W, but everyone who does has to get really smart really quick and see exactly what is going on. Stop being blinded by your love of the game and support of the devs. Start to see when people are trying to empty your pockets by putting crowns in them.

Think of it this way. Small instances of P2W may not seem that bad, but wouldn't you rather strike a weed at it's root rather than let it bloom and spread? This specific experience scroll is small potatoes in my opinion, but don't you wish that you had been a voice against, lets say, the P2W crafting bag as a way of preventing future P2W from being implemented?

Well said M'man

*Tips tinfoil hat*

Milvan · September 2016

You guys need to play a real asian p2w mmorpg, then you will see what's a p2w looks like Selling scrolls that give xp boots it's not p2w, neither p2 progress.

Seriously, this post makes me cry.

ThePaleItalian · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@ThePaleItalian

read topic again
there is near 30% of posts who agreed with me

And the other 70%......

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

and the other 70% naive simpletons, they didnt understanding the real threat in this grand scrolls