Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

With heavy you don't have to do that, you gain both mag and stamina sustain, those 3 bonuses are usually filled with wpn/spell dmg or max stats.

That's a myth.

With 5 heavy BR armor pieces, you get 650 regen. If your skill costs 2000 resources to use, this regen will allow you to use it once every 6 seconds.

If you completely ignore regen, rely only on constitution returns, and fill those 3 bonuses with wpn/spell dmg like you said, you will spend the majority of your time using heavy attacks to get resources back. And that still assumes you are getting hit once every 4 seconds. You can forget about doing any kind of burst damage, try spamming an ability for a few seconds and your resources are dry.

I've been using 7 heavy armor(same constitution returns as 5 heavy with black rose) for a long time on a mag DK, and i have only one jewelry piece enchanted with spell damage, the other two are spell regen and cost reduction. I also use seducer weapons on the 2nd bar, and the 5-piece set is kagrenac for more sustain. And i constantly have to watch my magicka pool and rely a lot on cheap skills like embers, because if i let myself carried away spamming flame lash, i will run dry in a few seconds of fighting.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

With heavy you don't have to do that, you gain both mag and stamina sustain, those 3 bonuses are usually filled with wpn/spell dmg or max stats.

That's a myth.

With 5 heavy BR armor pieces, you get 650 regen. If your skill costs 2000 resources to use, this regen will allow you to use it once every 6 seconds.

If you completely ignore regen, rely only on constitution returns, and fill those 3 bonuses with wpn/spell dmg like you said, you will spend the majority of your time using heavy attacks to get resources back. And that still assumes you are getting hit once every 4 seconds. You can forget about doing any kind of burst damage, try spamming an ability for a few seconds and your resources are dry.

I've been using 7 heavy armor(same constitution returns as 5 heavy with black rose) for a long time on a mag DK, and i have only one jewelry piece enchanted with spell damage, the other two are spell regen and cost reduction. I also use seducer weapons on the 2nd bar, and the 5-piece set is kagrenac for more sustain. And i constantly have to watch my magicka pool and rely a lot on cheap skills like embers, because if i let myself carried away spamming flame lash, i will run dry in a few seconds of fighting.

Mag dk is a whole other problem.

Though if your using heavy i'd go another cost reduction over that regen, spec full into cost reduction, mag dk's sustain via ult's and tri-pots.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's when heavy is combined with things like Redguard which i assume people naturally do and didn't think i needed to state that, then the mag recovery that comes with it allows utility spamming such as dark deal, etc..

RoyJade wrote: »

In my opinion, the main problem is Black Rose : on top of the 40% bonus to constitution and the other HA passive, it give one health bonus, two stamina bonus and one weapon/spell damage bonus. Change it to give only health or health regen but no offensive bonus, and it will be less problematic.

jaburns wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

This thread... I swear.

So heavy armor wearing players are hard to kill. Would you call that... I dunno... tanky?

And if such players are hard to kill couldn't you... you know... leave them alone while you burn off other players? Once the group's down, you turn your attention to the tank. Tanks are supposed to be hard to kill and draw aggro. If you're having a hard time killing them and are completely focused on them in PVP... you're only helping them do their job. Heavy armor is supposed to make someone hard to kill. This is what drives me crazy when people complain about "cancer builds" (ie: Blazing Shield). It's only useful if people act like moths to a flame. Blazing Shield builds are weak AF if you don't go near them. High health, low DPS. C'mon guys!

Yes, some people wear 5 pieces of heavy armor for more survivability... but then they lack the weapon power (medium), crit (medium), penetration (light), and regen (med & light). All those people complaining about heavy armor sets are obviously not wearing them because they prefer the higher damage of medium or light. (and let's not forget about how these new uber penetration sets are about to come out!)

As for Black Rose... I think it would be fine to change one of the stamina bonuses to magicka. That way, it truly is a "hybrid" set. Black Rose is not just for PVP. It's very, very helpful for end-game trials and vDSA. If you're going to nerf it- don't kill the set. Just adjust it to where it benefits PVP and PVE equally without being overkill to one.

Do you even pvp?

Incase you've failed to pvp in the last 6 months or you haven't even read the thred, you lose nothing while being in black rose....

Dmg = wraith
Sustain = 650 mag and stam regen in pvp - which is why people run 600 regen and sustain just fine.
More hp
More healing
More armour.

?

Okay... let's see...

Wrath's damage, more HP, more healing, and more armor are all just heavy armor passives. That has nothing to do with Black Rose. So, you're complaining that Black Rose has a 5pc bonus "regenerative" effect comparable to other medium and light armor sets that have high regen? Seriously? !?!

Fine, then. Vicious Serpent is waaaaaay OP because you get the medium armor passives of regen, reduced stamina costs, extra crit, 12% extra damage, AND the actual set bonuses of: Reduce the cost of Stamina abilities by 8%. When you kill an enemy, you restore 2075 Stamina and gain Major Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 20 seconds. Adds 124 Weapon Damage.

Look at that!!! Wow... when you name the everyday passives with an armor's 5pc bonus... it suddenly looks crazy.

OMG!!! Let's try it with a light armor set:

Scathing Mage is sooooooo OP because it gets light armor passives of reduced magicka costs, magicka regen, spell resistance, huge spell crit, huge spell penetration, AND 10% chance when causing Critical Damage to increase your Spell Damage by 516 for 6 seconds. 516 spell damage?!?! WOW... that certainly outshines a set that gets a 154 damage bonus.

Whew... I'm glad we talked this one out.

Vitaely wrote: »

Here's my personal experience for the armor weights in PVP. You are free to agree or disagree.

The main issue with the assumed "heavy armor meta" is that a lot of people in the game are complaining if their opponents can hold their ground for more than a minute. Look at the uproar on the recent healbot thread (on Alliance War forums), it's ridiculous. A tank build is supposed to tank, a healbot is supposed to heal. There's nothing wrong there. Just because some people started moving towards heavy armor after a stupidly bursty/high penetration meta doesn't mean heavy armor is OP. It means your expectations of burst is completely biased towards expecting people to die too sooner.

Another common complaint: "Heavy armor is meant for tanking, not DD". Any kinda heavy armor set that you put on that gives you some amount of damage (fury, black rose, etc) has to be combined with some good damage dealing jewelry/weapons to make them DDs. (Agility, VMA weapons, Viper, Velidreth etc.) Viper and Velidreth are the definition of burst. On a heavy armor set they will give you the missing small burst. However if you were to run those sets in medium armor, any opponent would melt in front of you. So by giving up killing your opponents under a second and donning heavy armor, you gain survivability against such builds. There's nothing wrong there, it's a counter-meta for burst builds.

I find @ZOS_RichLambert 's findings most accurate, at least for PC/NA Trueflame. A lot of people in PVP don't run heavy armor. You will find that those people usually run in "larger groups". My group have been fighting against so many small man groups recently. And you will see that these groups, that can take on your average zerg for a few rounds, all heavily run heavy armor. Why? Because you need to be able to face tank/outheal some damage while bursting down your numerous light/medium armored opponents.

It's all about size and group composition. You will still get facerolled by a trained, organized group if they catch you off-guard and you don't have enough defensive structures. But heavy armor will also give you a chance to thrawt group 3-5 times your size.

Past patches we've been talking/complaining about how much ZOS seems to favor "the zerg" (see: AOE caps). Any smaller scale player should take heavy armor as a blessing, not a curse. It should also be noted heavy armor gives you a higher margin of error. You won't die immediately just because you broke CC half a second slower (due to a broken CCs, bad ping, player ineptness). I think the larger margin of player error is what most people are complaining about.

Having said that, despite the fact that heavy armor has its place in the current pvp meta, I still prefer medium armor on my nightblade since it gives me more chance for subterfuge. Heavy is god-given to any stam sorc, stam dk and stamplar. Good luck taking your heavy armored opponents on with medium or light armor.

With equal odds, any heavy armor build will outperform their bursty equivalents. If you're dueling them, chances are you will miss a killing blow time and time again, and then die from the smallest error. Two solutions: A-You should go full derp and build on damage, so you can burst 30k+ health much more easily. B-Balance your damage and recovery, but don't made mistakes (git gud).

Light armor on the other hand needs a complete rework. The amount of light armor magplars (save zerg healers), light armor mdks or sorcs is depleting fast. This is partially related to the amount of buffs stamina received, which caused all magicka builds to fall behind, forcing more and more of them to have no choice but run heavy armor. (I'm looking at you reactive magplars, negatebot sorcs.)

One final point, Black Rose constitution passive is ridiculous under pressure (note the under pressure part). If you know how to handle your health, you won't run out of resources until a bursty nightblade or two gank you from stealth. It's certainly imba at times, and might require some looking into.



TL;DR: Heavy armor meta is just a counter to the bursty b***s*** meta. Also helps the small man groups to perform better against larger groups in pvp. Black Rose might overperform at times.