We really need to address heavy armor

Strider_Roshin

Here's the thing, it was buffed way too much. As it stands your raw damage is consistently a little less than medium or light, but your survivability is astronomically better, and your resource management is superior as well. This is not balanced at all. The constitution passive really needs to be reduced by 30% IMO. Damage and resource management should be acquired via light and medium armor. Heavy should just dominate survivability.

Rilmarshim

Wake up! It's already domintating in pvp. Every second meta-idiot in Cyrodiil wearing fckng Black Rose set not depending is he magicka or stamina user. Magplar? Wear Black Rose! Stam sorc? Stam DK? Wear Black Rose! Heavy armor and this set especially is current pvp-meta, because of it's versatility. Though in next update there are lot of sets whis give you penetration and 2H ulti that ignore all resistances. I hope this will help.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

How would you change heavy to make sure survivability is the only thing that it is good for? Especially when PvP is all about Damage and resource management.

Ffastyl

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Rilmarshim

Just give me one reason why should I wear light armor instead of heavy in pvp.

dsalter

sounds like black rose is the issue rather than heavy armor

Rilmarshim

No, actualy there are a lot of options. Black Rose is just an easy mode.

Doctordarkspawn

Then nerf black rose.

Do not nerf the skill line, nerf the associated sets. OR GIVE US BACK BRACING FOR PETE SAKE.

incognito222

I'm seeing multiple separate threads commented by similar people trying to garner support from others to get Heavy Armor nerfed.

I'm asking again here as it was not clear to me in the other threads, does the thread starter here want:
(1) All Heavy Armor nerfed
(2) Black Rose set nerfed
(3) Both Heavy Armor and Black Rose nerfed

With damage so high as it is currently, also damage is going to increase even more in next update, I can understand why some players adopt Heavy Armor to avoid getting instakilled (by gankers especially).

In retrospect, you can achieve hard cap mitigation, superior stamina regen, more critical chance, more damage, more survivability, cheaper ability cost, higher mobility, dodge more, by using medium armor (Armor Master set in medium). When combining this with other medium armor sets, you can be at least as tanky as full Heavy Armor users if not more, without any of the drawbacks, but with all of the benefits of medium armor.

Having said the above, not sure if nerfing heavy armor is justified (needs some more thought) since it has been pretty much useless (despite looking cool) for the past two years or so.

My full medium armor gankblade can defeat Heavy Armor users without using Viper and Velidreth (albeit it takes longer) but it sure is more fun now, as player skill plays a greater part in determining the outcome of the scuffle.

May be interesting to note that many stam users are Redguard to benefit from stamina sustain passive during combat (Adrenaline Rush). Some math was provided by @Sharee to show that Redguards with a stamina pool of above 22K outperforms Black Rose constitution bonus. The thing is, I see so many redguards running Black Rose, hence the incredible stamina sustain in combat. That being the case, would it be wise to single out Black Rose alone and call for a nerf ?

Hoping to get more feedback and results so it benefits all playstyles and the community as a whole. Have a safe and pleasant day everyone, cheers.

Rilmarshim

Heavy Kagrenac/Seducer/Reactive set are also very common. Problem is in constitution and rapid maending passives. And ofc in stacking resistances withount loosing much damage. Resist stacking and high sustain are epidemic now.

hrothbern

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Just give me one reason why should I wear light armor instead of heavy in pvp.

What DO you wear in PVP ?

and if HA, is that Black Rose ?

GreenSoup2HoT

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:


Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC


.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.


So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Considering tanks and heavy Armour builds in general are usually the underdog in all MMORPG's i've ever played, i would consider those statistics pretty darn high for heavy Armour.

Heavy Armour has and always will be the underdog Armour type. So the fact that heavy Armour is barley behind the medium/light Armour statistics really shows that heavy Armour is probably over-performing somewhere.

I guess this means using Maces and Penetration CP/Gear my be something i look into in the future. In my opinion those statistics for heavy Armour are way above normal.

Alucardo

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Then nerf black rose.

Do not nerf the skill line, nerf the associated sets. OR GIVE US BACK BRACING FOR PETE SAKE.

You do realise when they removed bracing they buffed the hell out of Fortress in the S+B skill line? The biggest kick in the nads was when they moved the block cost reduction in the CP tree.

OT: Heavy armor is where it should be. Honestly, Black Rose is probably your problem, not HA in general. With BR I get better sustain than when I'm in light or medium, which doesn't seem right.
Light should keep the spell pen passive, but also have an added 6% spell damage or something as well. I literally wear HA on my magicka characters because I don't see much difference at all in damage.

Doctordarkspawn

Alucardo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Then nerf black rose.

Do not nerf the skill line, nerf the associated sets. OR GIVE US BACK BRACING FOR PETE SAKE.

You do realise when they removed bracing they buffed the hell out of Fortress in the S+B skill line? The biggest kick in the nads was when they moved the block cost reduction in the CP tree.

OT: Heavy armor is where it should be. Honestly, Black Rose is probably your problem, not HA in general. With BR I get better sustain than when I'm in light or medium, which doesn't seem right.
Light should keep the spell pen passive, but also have an added 6% spell damage or something as well. I literally wear HA on my magicka characters because I don't see much difference at all in damage.

Buffed the hell out of Fortress?

...Buffed the hell out of -fortress-?

They buffed it by six percent to a partially recoup what we lost with bracing. Not enough. And oddly enough, no, it wasn't a kick in the nuts with the CP switch. My defenses are better than ever because of that change. I dont care about S&S's offensive capability, that's not it's bloody purpose. (It is worth noting, that my perspective is largely from PVE. But It allways boggles the mind how these people basicly want to bankrupt this game for a section of it that will never, and -can never-, be ballanced.)

And then we see people crying for a nerf on constitution, which only recently even became relevent. If anything, the massive influx of magicka toons wearing heavy armor means Light armor needs buffed, a thing that has been called for, by both PVP/PVE'ers alike.

Buffs, not nerfs.

Alucardo

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Then nerf black rose.

Do not nerf the skill line, nerf the associated sets. OR GIVE US BACK BRACING FOR PETE SAKE.

You do realise when they removed bracing they buffed the hell out of Fortress in the S+B skill line? The biggest kick in the nads was when they moved the block cost reduction in the CP tree.

OT: Heavy armor is where it should be. Honestly, Black Rose is probably your problem, not HA in general. With BR I get better sustain than when I'm in light or medium, which doesn't seem right.
Light should keep the spell pen passive, but also have an added 6% spell damage or something as well. I literally wear HA on my magicka characters because I don't see much difference at all in damage.

Buffed the hell out of Fortress?

...Buffed the hell out of -fortress-?

They buffed it by six percent to a partially recoup what we lost with bracing. Not enough. And oddly enough, no, it wasn't a kick in the nuts with the CP switch. My defenses are better than ever because of that change. I dont care about S&S's offensive capability, that's not it's bloody purpose. (It is worth noting, that my perspective is largely from PVE. But It allways boggles the mind how these people basicly want to bankrupt this game for a section of it that will never, and -can never-, be ballanced.)

And then we see people crying for a nerf on constitution, which only recently even became relevent. If anything, the massive influx of magicka toons wearing heavy armor means Light armor needs buffed, a thing that has been called for, by both PVP/PVE'ers alike.

Buffs, not nerfs.

Well, 6% is a lot better than nothing, and I quite like Wrath. I'd prefer buffing Fortress more over returning Bracing tbh. There's always going to be a difference of opinion between PVP and PVE though, I guess. It's hard to keep everyone happy.
I agree with you on the Light armor thing though. If they nerfed constitution it would become useless. It's finally in a good place now. I'd prefer it if they brought Light armor in line with HA rather than nerfing HA into oblivion.

Doctordarkspawn

Alucardo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Then nerf black rose.

Do not nerf the skill line, nerf the associated sets. OR GIVE US BACK BRACING FOR PETE SAKE.

You do realise when they removed bracing they buffed the hell out of Fortress in the S+B skill line? The biggest kick in the nads was when they moved the block cost reduction in the CP tree.

OT: Heavy armor is where it should be. Honestly, Black Rose is probably your problem, not HA in general. With BR I get better sustain than when I'm in light or medium, which doesn't seem right.
Light should keep the spell pen passive, but also have an added 6% spell damage or something as well. I literally wear HA on my magicka characters because I don't see much difference at all in damage.

Buffed the hell out of Fortress?

...Buffed the hell out of -fortress-?

They buffed it by six percent to a partially recoup what we lost with bracing. Not enough. And oddly enough, no, it wasn't a kick in the nuts with the CP switch. My defenses are better than ever because of that change. I dont care about S&S's offensive capability, that's not it's bloody purpose. (It is worth noting, that my perspective is largely from PVE. But It allways boggles the mind how these people basicly want to bankrupt this game for a section of it that will never, and -can never-, be ballanced.)

And then we see people crying for a nerf on constitution, which only recently even became relevent. If anything, the massive influx of magicka toons wearing heavy armor means Light armor needs buffed, a thing that has been called for, by both PVP/PVE'ers alike.

Buffs, not nerfs.

Well, 6% is a lot better than nothing, and I quite like Wrath. I'd prefer buffing Fortress more over returning Bracing tbh. There's always going to be a difference of opinion between PVP and PVE though, I guess. It's hard to keep everyone happy.
I agree with you on the Light armor thing though. If they nerfed constitution it would become useless. It's finally in a good place now. I'd prefer it if they brought Light armor in line with HA rather than nerfing HA into oblivion.

Fair enough, with the fortress.

And fair enough with the rest of it.

Sharee

It was already mentioned above but it should be reiterated so it does not get lost in the noise:

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

Since it is possible to change your race now, pretty much every min-maxer stamina build is a redguard now.

How much of this supposedly unlimited stamina management of heavy black rose stamina builds is actually caused by this racial passive, and not the black rose bonus?

It is possible we are barking up the wrong tree here. Heavy armor is not only worn by redguards. Think about the orcs and dunmer, people.

RoyJade

In my opinion, the main problem is Black Rose : on top of the 40% bonus to constitution and the other HA passive, it give one health bonus, two stamina bonus and one weapon/spell damage bonus. Change it to give only health or health regen but no offensive bonus, and it will be less problematic.

Liofa

I think you mean Black Rose , not Heavy Armor . HA is totally fine . It is viable choice if you want something between protection , sustain and damage . Medium and Light gives much more damage than heavy . The thing is , when you wear Black Rose , it boosts everything . It boosts damage , tankiness and sustain by a lot . That is the reason why people use it . It is pretty much the best set for PvP in the game because it has no weaknesses . It gives you an advantage while fighting anyone unlike other sets . Take Fasalla's for example . It is a great set . 50% healing reduction is huge but it doesn't do any good when you fight against anyone who uses a shield for protection . It is totally useless against any magicka class who has shields . Nearly every class and set has a disadvantage while fighting against certain enemies but Black Rose doesn't have any and that is the reason it should toned down a bit . Not a lot , just a bit .

Xsorus

People whining and making excuses for their losses; there are multiple set combinations right now for heavy and don't use black rose, shut black rose I wouldn't even rate as the best (reactive). This is before they're about to release a damn patch with multiple heavy armor sets that will outclass black rose.

Also please don't pretend medium armor isn't powerful as hell right now, heavy being gutted back to *** will just lead to a surge of enternal hunt medium users... Which you people will whine about because most of you are specced full burst no sustain.

DHale

Or you could just wear heavy armor... If it was so good. Also I think you need to read the actual data put out early last week. Heavy armor not so much. There has not been one nerf in this game in 2.4 years that have made anything better. Can you name one.

Sharee

Liofa wrote: »

Nearly every class and set has a disadvantage while fighting against certain enemies but Black Rose doesn't have any and that is the reason it should toned down a bit . Not a lot , just a bit .

BR regen is half as good as the redguard passive, the damage bonus is worse than a jewelry enchant. And to get these, you are giving up any of the multitude of powerful 5-piece bonuses. Like, say, a 35% mitigation while CCed. That's the disadvantage of black rose.

RoyJade

Xsorus wrote: »

People whining and making excuses for their losses; there are multiple set combinations right now for heavy and don't use black rose, shut black rose I wouldn't even rate as the best (reactive). This is before they're about to release a damn patch with multiple heavy armor sets that will outclass black rose.

Also please don't pretend medium armor isn't powerful as hell right now, heavy being gutted back to *** will just lead to a surge of enternal hunt medium users... Which you people will whine about because most of you are specced full burst no sustain.

At least, eternal hunt permadodgers can be radiant destructed and now soul assaulted
Heavy shouldn't be nerfed in the point to being ineffective, I think black rose and especially light armor should be changed.
Light give you a penetration bonus and sustain in pvp, nothing more No survivability, not a lot of damage. Heavy give you more damage, enough sustain and good survivability. Medium at least give more weapon damage and especially a sneak/roll dodge/sprint cost reduction, so it give damage, sustain and survivability it's competitive against heavy.

psychotic13

Light armor needs the buff, heavy and medium are fine imo. Light armors regen and cost reduction are separate passives, while its 1 passive for medium so they get more benefit.

Same with crit, light armors 5pc is 10% crit while in medium you get crit per piece of armor

Rilmarshim

Heavy armor is NOT fine. Black Rose is not the only broken thing - this is just the most ridiculous HA set in the game. Just look at reactive templars for example.

hrothbern

Sharee wrote: »

It was already mentioned above but it should be reiterated so it does not get lost in the noise:

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

Since it is possible to change your race now, pretty much every min-maxer stamina build is a redguard now.

How much of this supposedly unlimited stamina management of heavy black rose stamina builds is actually caused by this racial passive, and not the black rose bonus?

It is possible we are barking up the wrong tree here. Heavy armor is not only worn by redguards. Think about the orcs and dunmer, people.

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

@Sharee
come on...
you add a quantitative argument in the discussion
to what purpose ?

Qualitative opinions are weighted muchhhh stronger in these kinds of nerf threads than any math or quantitative approach.

Nobody will touch your remark about the Stamina Redguard,
and react on it with quantitative comparisons, with some facts and math
allowing for a constructive investigation, analysis and discussion

Ignoring quantitative contributions to a discussion, pointing in the "wrong" direction, is way easier and convenient

Sharee

hrothbern wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

It was already mentioned above but it should be reiterated so it does not get lost in the noise:

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

Since it is possible to change your race now, pretty much every min-maxer stamina build is a redguard now.

How much of this supposedly unlimited stamina management of heavy black rose stamina builds is actually caused by this racial passive, and not the black rose bonus?

It is possible we are barking up the wrong tree here. Heavy armor is not only worn by redguards. Think about the orcs and dunmer, people.

A redguard with 44K max stamina is getting twice as much stamina from his racial passive alone than the stamina return black rose 5-piece set bonus gives.

@Sharee
come on...
you add a quantitative argument in the discussion
to what purpose ?

Qualitative opinions are weighted muchhhh stronger in these kinds of nerf threads than any math or quantitative approach.

Nobody will touch your remark about the Stamina Redguard,
and react on it with quantitative comparisons, with some facts and math
allowing for a constructive investigation, analysis and discussion

Ignoring quantitative contributions to a discussion, pointing in the "wrong" direction, is way easier and convenient

Yeah sorry, i'll shut up now

Strider_Roshin

DHale wrote: »

Or you could just wear heavy armor... If it was so good. Also I think you need to read the actual data put out early last week. Heavy armor not so much. There has not been one nerf in this game in 2.4 years that have made anything better. Can you name one.

Dodge rolling, and bolt escape.

WillhelmBlack

Don't want to say I told you so but I said heavy was fine as it was. Templars and DK could utilise it just fine, now even gankers are wearing it.

WillhelmBlack

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Or you could just wear heavy armor... If it was so good. Also I think you need to read the actual data put out early last week. Heavy armor not so much. There has not been one nerf in this game in 2.4 years that have made anything better. Can you name one.

Dodge rolling, and bolt escape.

No, the game is much worse now because of those.

Edziu

@Sharee

so to dont have that much problem against redguards in heavy nerf this passive to flat amount of stamina return, like zeni did with siphoning attacks, this was to op when this returning your resources by%, now this returining in flat amount.

no we have probplem with redguard passive thanks you make it to return flat amount of stamina, not %, people with less stamina will be happy with this change