If you want to beat heavy armor users, you need a Heal Debuff....I've had this argument multiple times with people...But that's really the way you fight them.

Most of the heals a Stamina user ends up getting is HOTS, not really burst healing..this even more so for a Heavy Armor user that doesn't make use of Dodge Roll as much. He's basically sustaining himself with Healing.....

So unless you can spit out some downright silly burst..you better have a heal debuff in your build.

Xsorus wrote: »

If you want to beat heavy armor users, you need a Heal Debuff....I've had this argument multiple times with people...But that's really the way you fight them.

Most of the heals a Stamina user ends up getting is HOTS, not really burst healing..this even more so for a Heavy Armor user that doesn't make use of Dodge Roll as much. He's basically sustaining himself with Healing.....

So unless you can spit out some downright silly burst..you better have a heal debuff in your build.

SSSSH. Don't tell all the viper veli cheeseblades how to kill us!

Xsorus wrote: »

If you want to beat heavy armor users, you need a Heal Debuff....I've had this argument multiple times with people...But that's really the way you fight them.

Most of the heals a Stamina user ends up getting is HOTS, not really burst healing..this even more so for a Heavy Armor user that doesn't make use of Dodge Roll as much. He's basically sustaining himself with Healing.....

So unless you can spit out some downright silly burst..you better have a heal debuff in your build.

Healing debuffs in this game are just sad, unless you running full debuff build.
I mean, look at DK's healing bonuces combined with heavy armor and CP. 30%? Srsly?
For templars it's even more easy. *Casts cleanse* "Debuff? What debuff?"

Man, have you played pvp after TG patch? The things you talking are a bit... Outdated.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

If you want to beat heavy armor users, you need a Heal Debuff....I've had this argument multiple times with people...But that's really the way you fight them.

Most of the heals a Stamina user ends up getting is HOTS, not really burst healing..this even more so for a Heavy Armor user that doesn't make use of Dodge Roll as much. He's basically sustaining himself with Healing.....

So unless you can spit out some downright silly burst..you better have a heal debuff in your build.

My heavy stam dk has 60% increased healing, 90% with a vit pots, 120% with malubeth.

Gl because your 25% healing reduction isn't going to do anything.

Also i think your forgetting rally.

Huh; I run reverb + fasalla + disease proc enchant for exact builds like yours....

And i put points into the heal debuff tree.

So yea... Good luck

leepalmer95 wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

This thread... I swear.

So heavy armor wearing players are hard to kill. Would you call that... I dunno... tanky?

And if such players are hard to kill couldn't you... you know... leave them alone while you burn off other players? Once the group's down, you turn your attention to the tank. Tanks are supposed to be hard to kill and draw aggro. If you're having a hard time killing them and are completely focused on them in PVP... you're only helping them do their job. Heavy armor is supposed to make someone hard to kill. This is what drives me crazy when people complain about "cancer builds" (ie: Blazing Shield). It's only useful if people act like moths to a flame. Blazing Shield builds are weak AF if you don't go near them. High health, low DPS. C'mon guys!

Yes, some people wear 5 pieces of heavy armor for more survivability... but then they lack the weapon power (medium), crit (medium), penetration (light), and regen (med & light). All those people complaining about heavy armor sets are obviously not wearing them because they prefer the higher damage of medium or light. (and let's not forget about how these new uber penetration sets are about to come out!)

As for Black Rose... I think it would be fine to change one of the stamina bonuses to magicka. That way, it truly is a "hybrid" set. Black Rose is not just for PVP. It's very, very helpful for end-game trials and vDSA. If you're going to nerf it- don't kill the set. Just adjust it to where it benefits PVP and PVE equally without being overkill to one.

Do you even pvp?

Incase you've failed to pvp in the last 6 months or you haven't even read the thred, you lose nothing while being in black rose....

Dmg = wraith
Sustain = 650 mag and stam regen in pvp - which is why people run 600 regen and sustain just fine.
More hp
More healing
More armour.

?

Okay... let's see...

Wrath's damage, more HP, more healing, and more armor are all just heavy armor passives. That has nothing to do with Black Rose. So, you're complaining that Black Rose has a 5pc bonus "regenerative" effect comparable to other medium and light armor sets that have high regen? Seriously? !?!

Fine, then. Vicious Serpent is waaaaaay OP because you get the medium armor passives of regen, reduced stamina costs, extra crit, 12% extra damage, AND the actual set bonuses of: Reduce the cost of Stamina abilities by 8%. When you kill an enemy, you restore 2075 Stamina and gain Major Expedition, increasing your Movement Speed by 30% for 20 seconds. Adds 124 Weapon Damage.

Look at that!!! Wow... when you name the everyday passives with an armor's 5pc bonus... it suddenly looks crazy.

OMG!!! Let's try it with a light armor set:

Scathing Mage is sooooooo OP because it gets light armor passives of reduced magicka costs, magicka regen, spell resistance, huge spell crit, huge spell penetration, AND 10% chance when causing Critical Damage to increase your Spell Damage by 516 for 6 seconds. 516 spell damage?!?! WOW... that certainly outshines a set that gets a 154 damage bonus.

Whew... I'm glad we talked this one out.

@leepalmer95

Sarcasm isn't meant to be mature, dingleberry. Bring your sense of entitlement down a few notches.

And see, here's the problem with all of this. All of these complaints come from PVPers who can't seem to see past PVP. There is more to the game that ZOS has to try to balance than just PVP. So, they make these sets with PVP and PVE in mind. PVE needed heavy armor buffs, too. The only "go-to" PVE tank build HAD to have Footman's Fortune. ZoS is trying to give both PVP and PVE more options. But, for some reason... you can't seem to grasp that. Every aspect of this game has to revolve around PVP to some of you.

Earlier this year, PVPers and PVEers alike were screaming for a heavy armor buff. ZoS kindly gives us one. Now, suddenly, these guys wearing heavy armor are harder to kill in PVP. What happens? People start complaining. So what? Nerf heavy armor so tanks are easy to kill? Sure, they could do that... but then it would unbalance PVE tanks. Actually... it looks like ZoS is about to buff DPSers (both in PVE and PVP) with these max stam/mag and max penetration sets.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown. I wouldn't want to sit below ZoS's Sword of Damocles. They're constantly trying to adjust the game to give it "balance" for both PVP and PVE. And they have to try to satisfy two different parties who'll never get exactly what they want.

But there is one thing I think we can both agree on, @leepalmer95. Whether you're PVP or PVE... ERPers are weird.

i dont know guys...i am of the mind that the armors should be equal in damage. for example, a heavy armor templar should do the exact same damage on a player in equal quility light armor. and the same for stamina builds doing equal damage to heavy armor builds. DEFENSE is where the armors should differentiate. wearing heavy means you block more, dodge roll less, and have weaker self bubbles. medium armors, you MAIN defense is dodge rolling and shuffle (although this needs to change to be the same as light armor absorb magick, you get more dodge chance the more med armor you have, to prevent heavy users from useing it), and light armor you have stronger bubbles, self heals.

so for light armor, they NEED to give light armor a stronger shield/ self heals. it would be nice if they also consolidated our passives to almost equal stamina passives. currently there are ZERO defensive bonuses to LA, sure we have a REALLY cool bubble ability, but i think it needs to be buffed. so for a magplar defensive capability, it should be the same as it is now, using a resto staff he casts resto bubble and BOL. using a S+B, he blocks (although not for long) and casts BOL. he can also instead of blocking, use LA bubble. now the only place this buff does NOT look good is sorcs, they have many different bubbles to their disposal that they still stack...but they also lack the templar heal soo...don't know

for medium armor, they have REALLY hit the nail on the head, they have given bonuses to DODGE ROLLING and SPRINTING. which makes sense, it IS their primary stat. i personally do not believe that stam players need vigor, i think it was BS when they implemented it, and it only harmed their primary defense, dodge rolling. i think that stam players SHOULD be vulnerable when they don't dodge roll, and just like i as a magick templar, i must use stamina for CC break and sprint, i think stamina should be forced to use magick for their heals if they want them. they already have really good heals in weapon lines, why give them vigor? who the *** knows. but it has madde them nigh unkillable to most magick builds of equal skill. now i understand that those heals will be weak...but if i have to use tri stat food for CC breaking, thenyou should have to use my weak BOL to heal up...only fair. also shuffle needs to be looked at. happens all to frequently where my Dark Flare will miss 5+ times in a row without my stamina apponent even dodge rolling...somthing fishy going on there. anyway, the point with stamin defense is NOT GETTING HIT IN THE FIRST PLACE, also gives massive passive stamina regens and reductions.

for heavy armor, this primarily depends on whether you are magick or stamina. as magick HA user templar, you will block, and just plain mitigate damage all together, healing up when you do take damage. only thing need to happen here is raising the mitigation cap. you should do less up front healing as magick, and be able to do less dodge rolling as stamina, you should also not be able to use shuffle to the same effectiveness as a medium armor user. but this armor is more "in your face, take the damage in the teeth" kinda armor. it SHOULD DEAL THE SAME DAMAGE AS LA, same penetration, same crit, same spell damage, and the same for comparing to medium armor.

basically...choosing what armor you wear should not impact your damage output, but how you deal damage, and how you defend against damage. as a med armor user, you dodge roll, cast shuffle (no vigor since i suggest it go away), you try not to be quite as upfront, and try to be more "elusive" in general. as LA user, you cast bubbles, reflects, heals, and cloak as your primary defense. as your offense you will try to stay at ranged when possible, and fight like you are wearing cloth, and for defense you cast away to regen health. as a magick HA user will be a damn ground zero beast, eating up damage through his mitigations increase, healing less ultimatly that his LA couter parts, bubble for less. you do not have passive resource regen, but ACTIVE through getting hit, the more you get hit, the higher you damage will be. as stamina heavy user, the same applies...you dodge less, shuffle less...you soak damage...thats it

so...this is how things SHOULD be right now, they are not, they are close...but every year we get further from it, with the buffs to heavy armor, nerfs to LA defense through battle spirit, and nerfs to dodge rolling (which was brought about because of vigor's implementation....). so we need to get back to where it should be. the armors not deciding your role, or how much damage you deal, or how tanky you are....but HOW you defend...HOW you attack...thats it

Joy_Division wrote: »

Heavy armor would be fine if light armor wasn't such a joke.

I don't mind heavy armor players having sustain and being able to kill somebody every now and then. It should be good and offer options other than just being for PvE trial tanks.

Light armor ATM is all glass and no cannon. Buffing it would make heavy armor not the autmatic best choice for everything and thus would go a long way to alleviating many people's concerns.

@Joy_Division

See? This is something I can get behind. I actually think Heavy Armor and Medium Armor are fine. I would like to see Light Armor get some sort of boost. Perhaps a passive that allows them to become incorporeal from a ranged attack once every 5 seconds. Just to add a little more survivability. Call it something like "Illusionist"... where it causes an attacker to miss.

There's got to be some reason why a person would wear cloth to battle...

Vangy wrote: »

?

Wearing 5 pc black rose means not building into regen and running 600 regen? ***....

For heavy armour

Constitution with 7 heavy pieces = 1305 return resource. Most heavy armour builds run 5 heavy and 1/1 or 2.
That means 1305 x 1.4 x (5/7) x (1/4) = 326 regen per second.....

Total heavy armour bonus damage;

200 from wrath if u get spanked every 6 seconds. Assuming u get spanked once every second would take 10 seconds of getting spanked to build up.

154 from black rose.

Most heavy armour builds run SnB therefore they get the passive which increases weapon damage by 5%. Even if I assume this goes off ur buffed weapon damage (I dont think it does) this would maybe amount to 150 weapon damage.

Total bonus for using black rose in 5 heavy with SnB = 500-ish weapon power on ur SnB bar.

Now for mitigation, on a semi-dps build you would run about 20k-ish physical resist which means u get (20k-100)/(66*10) = 30%-ish mitigation.

Lets not forget everyone is running sharpened in PvP which means out of the 20-25k u alr lose a flat out 5k. Maces = another 10% gone per mace. Assuming only 1 mace is used,

20k -5k *0.9 = 13.5k resists. = 20% mitigation.

Also 8% healing received and 8% health recovery. 8% healing received is good while health recovery is meh except in niche builds.

For medium armour

Huge crit bonus, 12% weapon damage bonus for wearing medium. Assuming you are a new toon with a gimped 3.5k weapon damage only, 12% = 420 with lots of crit more than heavy armour.

20% stam recovery and 15% stam cost reduction. With 1.5k regen base not counting racial passives etc which scale very well with this passive --> 1.5k * .2 = 300 regen. Slighty worse off than heavy in terms of regen but dont forget all the neat bonuses like dodge roll cost reduction and 15% stam cost reduction which are MASSIVE differences. Try rolling in a heavy armour build.

Mitigation wise,

15k - 5k *.9 =9k resits = 13% damage mtigation. Only 7% worse than its counterpart heavy armour build.

So to break it down;

Heavy vs Medium

500 weapon power (SnB) vs 420 + 10-15% crit? I cant rmb the conversion.
20% mitigation vs 13% mitigation
650-ish regen when getting spanked vs 300 forever with 15% cost reduction
note: for both stam and mag
8% healing received. vs dodge roll cost reduction etc

Looks balanced to me. Heavy armour favours sustain and rewards getting spanked while medium focuses more on damage and 1 stat. If u are a burst build ud want medium cos of the cost reduction + more crit + more damage up front. While heavy favours long fights with slightly better mitigation and much better sustain if u use both resource pools.

Pardon if my math is a bit off. But I still dont see what the big hoo-hah is about black rose. Ive spent a good deal of time on my SnB DK with BR as well as my 5 medium gankblade and they both do their jobs well. I cant imagine running BR on NB. It would gimp my damage potential....

+1 @Vangy

As I said... ZoS constantly has to try to balance these things. You forgot the extra stealth radius on the Medium Armor. It certainly helps out when a NB sneaks up behind you with a Surprise Attack/Incapacitating Strike. Damn you, IC sewers. I still have nightmares of those sounds.

Dr_Talos wrote: »

What's the point in crouching and doing SA->Incap when this combo will not take even half HP? -_-

The point is, this is not CS where u scurry around like a little rat and snipe>ambush and kill someone. If I had things my way, even the strongest burst from stealth would take away at best, 2/3 of someone's life. No one should get killed with triple proc veli viper widow cheese in 1 second.

I would like to see spell damage added into the light armor line.

i don't really think heavy needs a nerf tho. only thing that needs a freaking nerf is reactive/malubeth templars. that's just pure cancer.

but other than. meh.

Okay, what's the point in 30% healing reduction if templar can just cleanse it and DK's don't give a *** about this pity 30%.

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Also, I prefer Dizzying->Incap->Executioner :P

That's my point, Talos. A three hit combo from stealth is what makes people hate NBs.

But then again.. is that just playing to your stam or mag DPS ability? Isn't that the same as the unkillable tank? You're just playing your role?

If a 3-4 hit combo is acceptable for a stealthy, ganky build. Then perhaps a damn near unkillable build with low DPS is acceptable for a tank build.