STEVIL wrote: »

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bmcxp wrote: »

No it just devastates the crafting economy.

Tell you what... I will copy this to my faves and we can revisit it in 3 months to see how devastated the crafting economy is.

Wish i had done that for all the ENCHANTS ARE DOOMED node threads and POSIONS KILL ESO threads before they launched.

And I'll definitely do the same once Enforcers come.

My proposed solution to the crafting node issue.

First my opinion on some things being thrown around. The current system is perfect for new/casual players. As they adventure and as they naturally level, they will continuously come across crafting nodes with level and/or crafting skill appropriate materials. Putting particular nodes in particular zones ONLY is not in the best interest of what One Tamriel is trying to accomplish. I propose two solutions to the matter.

The one I find the "best" solution is to grant a new "perk" to master crafters - defined as level 50 in the craft and max skill points in the material level passive. This perk would simply allow those crafters to choose their desired "effective" passive rank - perhaps through a slider in the skill section. This would "convert" all nodes in the world into the mat for the tier they have chosen. This is a nice perk for those who have chosen to master their profession and solves the problem nicely. New/casual players will have the current chosen system in place which is the best for them and master crafters will finally have some unique perks.

Another option is to "third" the crafting nodes where the chosen node will show crafting materials for either the crafting passive, player level or zone specific nodes - like they are on Live. While this system is tempting as it brings back a "forced" reason to visit certain areas, this becomes problematic for crafters trying to harvest those low level materials for a particular customer.

Thanks for your time.

Dominoid wrote: »

My proposed solution to the crafting node issue.

First my opinion on some things being thrown around. The current system is perfect for new/casual players. As they adventure and as they naturally level, they will continuously come across crafting nodes with level and/or crafting skill appropriate materials. Putting particular nodes in particular zones ONLY is not in the best interest of what One Tamriel is trying to accomplish. I propose two solutions to the matter.

The one I find the "best" solution is to grant a new "perk" to master crafters - defined as level 50 in the craft and max skill points in the material level passive. This perk would simply allow those crafters to choose their desired "effective" passive rank - perhaps through a slider in the skill section. This would "convert" all nodes in the world into the mat for the tier they have chosen. This is a nice perk for those who have chosen to master their profession and solves the problem nicely. New/casual players will have the current chosen system in place which is the best for them and master crafters will finally have some unique perks.

Another option is to "third" the crafting nodes where the chosen node will show crafting materials for either the crafting passive, player level or zone specific nodes - like they are on Live. While this system is tempting as it brings back a "forced" reason to visit certain areas, this becomes problematic for crafters trying to harvest those low level materials for a particular customer.

Thanks for your time.

I think the bolded solution would be wonderful! Thank you for suggesting it!

Stormwalker wrote: »

I agree that the best solution is to allow players to chose what level materials they harvest

But they won't do it that way. Don't forget that ZOS' primary interest is to keep us playing. Main mean for that in PvE is dailies, all kinds of dailies. They have noticed in this forum and probably in their data the loss of interest in crafting writs. Tying lower level mats to crafting writs is a way to keep us doing crafting writs.
Also, not being able to farm the mats whenever we need them, forces us to keep them in inventory/bank in order to gather enough of them to be able to craft for lowbies. The more stuff we have to keep in inventory, the more incentive there is for... crafting bags, and crafting bags mean... subs.
No way ZOS is going to let us choose what we farm.

lordrichter wrote: »

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Dominoid wrote: »

My proposed solution to the crafting node issue.

First my opinion on some things being thrown around. The current system is perfect for new/casual players. As they adventure and as they naturally level, they will continuously come across crafting nodes with level and/or crafting skill appropriate materials. Putting particular nodes in particular zones ONLY is not in the best interest of what One Tamriel is trying to accomplish. I propose two solutions to the matter.

The one I find the "best" solution is to grant a new "perk" to master crafters - defined as level 50 in the craft and max skill points in the material level passive. This perk would simply allow those crafters to choose their desired "effective" passive rank - perhaps through a slider in the skill section. This would "convert" all nodes in the world into the mat for the tier they have chosen. This is a nice perk for those who have chosen to master their profession and solves the problem nicely. New/casual players will have the current chosen system in place which is the best for them and master crafters will finally have some unique perks.

Another option is to "third" the crafting nodes where the chosen node will show crafting materials for either the crafting passive, player level or zone specific nodes - like they are on Live. While this system is tempting as it brings back a "forced" reason to visit certain areas, this becomes problematic for crafters trying to harvest those low level materials for a particular customer.

Thanks for your time.

I don't like the perk, as stated, because it simply means that the game world is even less consistent and bends more to the needs of the game play. To me, there is less harmony between the two and the world simply becomes the more of a painted set piece that provides only the visual backdrop. It's purpose is only so that you don't see the back wall of the stage. Yes, it meets the game play requirements by providing a mechanical solution to the problem at hand.

I feel that, in any RPG game, the game world and game mechanics are of equal importance. I want these things to stay in balance because they are both reasons for playing the game. In other types of games, the game world can be a backdrop that exists only for the purpose of appearance.

The current resource node decisions make the game mechanics more important than the game world, likely in an effort to solve insolvable problems with game play.

As you stated, there are three different goals for crafting resources, and the bad part is that these are often mutually exclusive and can change based on the current situation. The player who wants to make armor and weapons for their character wants resources that can be used to make those. The player who wants to level a crafting skills wants resources that will do writs. It is easy to see why ZOS picked these as they directly address player needs, even if they had to do it in a manner where half the time they player was not getting what they wanted. The third option is the one where people farm or craft for people who cannot, or do not, want to do it for themselves, and this could be considered a niche scenario, especially if making a single player MMO game.

Because I come at this from a "world-game balance" perspective, my thought is to make the resource nodes specific to geography, and then work to solve the other two problems. To me, if I have to have a RNG node in a ZOS environment, the first order of business would be to provide 50% zone level resource and 50% character level resource. This allows characters to get what the need for personal crafting anywhere in the world while also allowing any character to be able to get any resource.

The solution to the needs of the crafter is a modification of what ZOS is doing today. Rather than giving out a crate of some random resource, give them refined crafting materials that they can use for the next writ. Make the crafting surveys only give out raw resources at crafting passive level. In this way, characters doing writs are more self sufficient while they are leveling. The surveys would be in the zones that supply that resource, and I would adjust the drop rates so they pretty much always get either a survey or a crate of refined material. There are other issues, like how to get started with writs and how to handle an increase in passive level, how much the player should need supplement writ rewards with active farming/buying of resources, etc.

I think of it this way - in the scaled zones, different characters see different mats in the world because of what they're looking for. Currently, in scaled zones characters always look for their crafting or character level (that's the game rule), and so that's what they find (they "overlook" the others). But a master crafter would now also get the "ability" to look for whatever past level they already mastered, and if they chose to look for those, that's what they'd find. It isn't changing the world, it's changing the character behavior. So I don't see it bending the world to gameplay any more than what they've already done in the scaled zones.

smacx250 wrote: »

I think of it this way - in the scaled zones, different characters see different mats in the world because of what they're looking for. Currently, in scaled zones characters always look for their crafting or character level (that's the game rule), and so that's what they find (they "overlook" the others). But a master crafter would now also get the "ability" to look for whatever past level they already mastered, and if they chose to look for those, that's what they'd find. It isn't changing the world, it's changing the character behavior. So I don't see it bending the world to gameplay any more than what they've already done in the scaled zones.

My point is that they have already bent the world and I am trying to get them to see a way to unbend it. I view this from the perspective of how the world should work, in the context of the world they created. This, in turn, is a view from my perspective about how the world and the game should be in harmony for an RPG game.

In the real world, when you need groceries, you drive to the grocery store. You don't get there and find that it is a gas station half the time, "overlook" it, and continue on to the next place you saw a grocery store. Worlds rarely work that way, but Tamriel in ESO does when it comes to resources. Yesterday, when I stopped by an ore node it was iron, but today it is ebony. In an hour, it might be iron, again. The world bends to the needs of game design and with no other reason than that.

More specific to your point, as a master geologist in the real world, you know where to find specific rocks and you go there to find them. You don't just find whatever rock you are looking for next to the road simply because you are a master geologist. You know you are not going to find diamonds alongside the road because you happen to be a master geologist. Most worlds do not work that way. It is very unusual.

In a point that you did not cover; when you are learning about limestone, half the rocks you come across are not going to be limestone just because that is what you are learning right now. When you advance to granite, you don't suddenly find there is no more limestone to be found among the piles of granite that have suddenly appeared.

A well thought out persistent world does not work this way unless there is a good reason that a world should work this way. In ESO, the world works this way because that is how the game play needs the world to work. The world bends to accommodate what is essentially an arbitrary need designed to address an arbitrary problem with game design. No further thought is given to it.

Don't get me wrong... The solution you provide is a good game mechanic for a game where the world just needs to be a backdrop for the larger game. I don't view that as a property of an RPG game like ESO.

I do want to point out that it is likely that my perspective is represented inside the studio. None of what I say here is particularly original or revolutionary. It was just not the prevailing opinion on the matter. I don't expect ZOS to change until the people who made the decisions have reason to change. Those who dislike what I am saying can rest easy.

Nestor wrote: »

Actually, they should just make it that we can use any crafting material at any level, just need more of them.

Leave the nodes alone or have them be a mix of mats. Use the Material Passives to reduce the amount needed, as in the initial amount of Steel is say twice or three times what it is now, but use the L2 Material Passive, and it is the amount it is now in Live. That way we still have a reason for investing in the material passive other than for writ reasons.

This gets into crafting as a whole. Generally speaking, the mechanics behind crafting in ESO are solid. The player can craft at any level. They can improve upon crafted items to make them better, within the specific level. There is sufficient complexity such that it allows for variation and character growth. It is simple enough to understand, although they need better tool tips to help with this.

What I would change about crafting, upon refinement of the crafting skills, is the interaction between different resources and how that changes the outcome. I would make blacksmithing and clothing more like alchemy in that the benefits come from mixing resources, and that knowledge is driven by skill points. Weapons and armor are stronger due to the mixture. Metal alloys. Weaves and layers of cloth and leather.

Woodworking is fine as it is, as are enchanting and provisioning.

Dominoid wrote: »

First my opinion on some things being thrown around. The current system is perfect for new/casual players. As they adventure and as they naturally level, they will continuously come across crafting nodes with level and/or crafting skill appropriate materials. Putting particular nodes in particular zones ONLY is not in the best interest of what One Tamriel is trying to accomplish.

But One Tamriel is making particular sets drop only in particular zones, so how is keeping resources the same way not in it's best interest?

This though:

Dominoid wrote: »

The one I find the "best" solution is to grant a new "perk" to master crafters - defined as level 50 in the craft and max skill points in the material level passive. This perk would simply allow those crafters to choose their desired "effective" passive rank - perhaps through a slider in the skill section. This would "convert" all nodes in the world into the mat for the tier they have chosen. This is a nice perk for those who have chosen to master their profession and solves the problem nicely. New/casual players will have the current chosen system in place which is the best for them and master crafters will finally have some unique perks.

is a fantastic idea. May be the best one I've heard. ZOS listen to this one!

Holycannoli wrote: »

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Dominoid wrote: »

First my opinion on some things being thrown around. The current system is perfect for new/casual players. As they adventure and as they naturally level, they will continuously come across crafting nodes with level and/or crafting skill appropriate materials. Putting particular nodes in particular zones ONLY is not in the best interest of what One Tamriel is trying to accomplish.

But One Tamriel is making particular sets drop only in particular zones, so how is keeping resources the same way not in it's best interest?

I see the point, but having the perfect set is not essential at all to character leveling or skill leveling. Having the "aha" moment of where sets drop is perfectly acceptable a hundred hours into the game while finally figuring out where that level 10 woodworking drop is 100 hours into the game is far too late.

Holycannoli wrote: »

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Dominoid wrote: »

First my opinion on some things being thrown around. The current system is perfect for new/casual players. As they adventure and as they naturally level, they will continuously come across crafting nodes with level and/or crafting skill appropriate materials. Putting particular nodes in particular zones ONLY is not in the best interest of what One Tamriel is trying to accomplish.

But One Tamriel is making particular sets drop only in particular zones, so how is keeping resources the same way not in it's best interest?

This though:

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Dominoid wrote: »

The one I find the "best" solution is to grant a new "perk" to master crafters - defined as level 50 in the craft and max skill points in the material level passive. This perk would simply allow those crafters to choose their desired "effective" passive rank - perhaps through a slider in the skill section. This would "convert" all nodes in the world into the mat for the tier they have chosen. This is a nice perk for those who have chosen to master their profession and solves the problem nicely. New/casual players will have the current chosen system in place which is the best for them and master crafters will finally have some unique perks.

is a fantastic idea. May be the best one I've heard. ZOS listen to this one!

Sorry... but for my money the better idea is to not make the master crafters choose between which mat they want to harvest but to simply remove the minimal level on mats so the master crafters can always gather top tier mats and use them to craft ANY level of gear.

thats a lot simpler to manage long term and has an analogous change already put in - remember when they overhauled enchant nodes they removed the upper limit?

How would it be better to harvest KRESH that only works on three levels of gear cap than to harvest ancestor silk and have it usable on ANY level of gear cap?

STEVIL wrote: »

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smacx250 wrote: »

[

So when the changes make it less fun and 3x more time consuming for people to do the same thing they do now, they get a little riled up!

Sigh... every update that makes any significant change will FOR SOME PEOPLE make what they do now less effective and often less fun.

That doesn't mean it makes any less sense to do it. While a few people will either find things less fun or less efficient than the way it is now on the broader whole game level MOST people will be better served by tieing resources in to need - nodes scale to characters - getting back to the efficiency we had when the progression of characters levels was strict linear geography and the progression of mat nodes was also.

But i still say, the better approach to "fixing" the less fun and less efficient" is NOT TO SAY WHOA LETS NOT MAKE THE CHANGE" but instead to say "hey lets let crafters use their high end mats they now get everywhere to make any level gear."

that way, the mass of people are served by always getting relevant mats everywhere anytime AND the master crtafters can harvest ANYWHERE ANYTIME and get mats they can use on any level of gear. Many will be well served by the constant link between MATS in and MATS needed on a larger economy thing.

Oh but wait... that wont solve the problem that if everyone everywhere gets effective mats it will be harder for master crafters to harvest gold off players who dont have their own mats.

Hmmm...

You reply to me, but it appears you've haven't actually read what I've written. First, I've never said to keep the mats the same as now - in fact, I've said (in another thread that you are also involved in) that is not a workable solution! And secondly, I don't craft anything for money - I do it for free, including mats, for myself and my friends (exactly the example I gave that you quoted)! Why do I do it? Because that's the most fun for everyone involved - and I want to keep it that way!

Please note that I don't think the system is unworkable, I'm just hoping for a better solution that will only broaden the appeal of the change.

The value of the tier 10 mats will drop because of the market being flooded by the majority of the CP160+ players who can only harvest tier 10 nodes.

smacx250 wrote: »

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STEVIL wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

[

So when the changes make it less fun and 3x more time consuming for people to do the same thing they do now, they get a little riled up!

Sigh... every update that makes any significant change will FOR SOME PEOPLE make what they do now less effective and often less fun.

That doesn't mean it makes any less sense to do it. While a few people will either find things less fun or less efficient than the way it is now on the broader whole game level MOST people will be better served by tieing resources in to need - nodes scale to characters - getting back to the efficiency we had when the progression of characters levels was strict linear geography and the progression of mat nodes was also.

But i still say, the better approach to "fixing" the less fun and less efficient" is NOT TO SAY WHOA LETS NOT MAKE THE CHANGE" but instead to say "hey lets let crafters use their high end mats they now get everywhere to make any level gear."

that way, the mass of people are served by always getting relevant mats everywhere anytime AND the master crtafters can harvest ANYWHERE ANYTIME and get mats they can use on any level of gear. Many will be well served by the constant link between MATS in and MATS needed on a larger economy thing.

Oh but wait... that wont solve the problem that if everyone everywhere gets effective mats it will be harder for master crafters to harvest gold off players who dont have their own mats.

Hmmm...

You reply to me, but it appears you've haven't actually read what I've written. First, I've never said to keep the mats the same as now - in fact, I've said (in another thread that you are also involved in) that is not a workable solution! And secondly, I don't craft anything for money - I do it for free, including mats, for myself and my friends (exactly the example I gave that you quoted)! Why do I do it? Because that's the most fun for everyone involved - and I want to keep it that way!

Please note that I don't think the system is unworkable, I'm just hoping for a better solution that will only broaden the appeal of the change.

I am all for improvements.
i see the scaled everywhere mats as a necessity for the new game world.
I also believe the narrow range of mat-to-gear-cap is as outdated as zone-locked mats and SHOULD be dropped but even if it isnt we will be in a much better place with all scaled nodes.

My only real objection to having a "harvest toggle" so you can pick what mats one harevsts is its a waste. WHY have to toggle, why have to track inventories of dozens of of mat levels, force the addition of a new element when you can just remove an existing limit and keep existing screen elements and accomplish the same net result?

As an example, i argued a while back that in thieves troves you havee "shipment boxes". these contain basically a ten pack of generic loot. I have to then open them separately. My suggestion was "just list the sellable goods in the trove? Save me the extra clicks. its needless complication.

Same here? Why have a "gimme kresh instead of ancestral silk" setting instead of saying "silk can do what kresh does too?"

frateanu.luiseb17_ESO wrote: »

Agreed with your proposal..or leave the system as it is right now. All the nodes of the base game must remain the same. DLC must be scaled. But I'm ok with @Demonoid opinion too.

just to be clear i understand.

So in OneT if i decide to go to my "silver zone" to start my quest thru levels 3-50, then i wont be harvesting ANY mats relevent to my character level or useful at all and will be harvesting kresh and those stuff and thats what you think must happen?

if i dont own DLCs i dont get access to farming tier 10 mats?
craglorn stays limited to tier 9?
When i get mage guild and fighter guild quests to different zones to level those guild skills, i get mats set to those zones regardless of what my gear cap level is?

Even tho the the enitire original linear flow from zone to zone of content and character leveling is gone, we must keep the nodes as they were built back then to match that specific now extinct leveling scheme?

Am i reading this right?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

ONE TAMRIEL

• Treasure chests found from a Treasure Map have a guaranteed chance to drop one random set piece that can drop in that zone.

They still don't drop set items (tested just a few minutes ago).


Terrible job with the set loot tables so far.
Guild dailies don't drop set items, CE treasure maps don't drop set items, yet you can grind all day in front of a boss or dolmen and get a full set in a matter of hours.

Questing and exploration have ZERO rewards.
Grinding and camping get ALL the rewards.

GG ZOS.

One thing I would like to point out, about the one tamriel update, is its effect on equipment crafting writs for those of us who aren't subbed and don't own the Wrothgar DLC.

All of us who have max crafting and are cp 160 will find no cp90-140 nodes in the world to use to complete our writs. Why should we be forced to respec if we want to find those cp-90-140 nodes? And not to mention if we use multiple characters to do the writs every day, we go through very large amounts of those materials. Farming will take up all of those players time then, they will have no time to do anything else, and that's not fun.