tl;read some pages.

To clear a few things for everyone who doesn't do raiding on a regular basis:

The most regurgitated counter-argument to our BoE plea is "You rich kids want to sell your gold jewelry for 200-500k. #firstworldproblems."**

Firstly, you need to understand drop rates: On an average veteran raid complete 2-3 people out of 12 gets a gold BoE jewelry. 50% of those are unwanted/unused sets (like Knightmare etc.). Therefore on a veteran clear one person gets somewhere around 250k on average (for vAA/HRC). I think this balances itself out well enough for the 2k pots we have consumed as a group. (Note that rest of the group gets bound jewelry they usually end up vendoring for trinket gold.)

Additionally, on a veteran hard mode complete 12/12 gets one gold BoE and one gold BoP jewelry.

The most commonly completed hard mode right now is vSO. If you looks at the prices (PC NA), BoE gold jewelry drop from vSO is worth <50k. Not the 200-500k some people are claiming.

Newly updated trials such as vAA/vHRC have very few hard mode clears (Kudos @Nifty2g @DisgracefulMind et al.) Once these two trials have been figured out by other groups, the prices of those jewelry will also drop.

Please stop this line of argument against genuine worries a group of players have.

Returning to our initial subject: Making these sets obtainable by other players is great. Let dolmens and dungeons drop this loot in greens and blues. But moving them completely out of trial loot tables makes raiding an even niche-er occupation. I, for one, am afraid how many in my guild will continue doing score and progression runs.

**I don't want to start any forum 1v1 so I refrained from quoting anyone in particular

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Most raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards, you do what's required to get a good score on the leaderboards.

Chori wrote: »

my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

Vitaely wrote: »

Returning to our initial subject: Making these sets obtainable by other players is great. Let dolmens and dungeons drop this loot in greens and blues.

Read the wall of text above your comment. I agree with making these sets obtainable. What I don't agree with is practically destroying gold loot, and a community of players who care about this game and their guilds.

Vitaely wrote: »

But moving them completely out of trial loot tables makes raiding an even niche-er occupation. I, for one, am afraid how many in my guild will continue doing score and progression runs.

Edit:
Right now every guild with the top scores runs high cost builds (gold gear, pots, etc). If you take out the gains from loots, it will be an endless gold drain. It will kill the competition, and the only people you will see on the leaderboards will be the ones who can afford it. This is not right.

There used to be some balance in terms of income/costs, with no loot I know for a fact people are considering to quit.

If you push the endgame players away who only do such content for progression, that don't do pvp, what is left for them in this game? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Chori wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials to get on trials leaderboards. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards.

I dont do trials competitively but I can tell you that if people that competes don't want to adapt or dont want to make their money from outside a trial drop that is not an issue of the rest of the player base. I don't go around telling ppl how to raid, but I know how they run and what you need to run with in order to make a difference and compete, which is why I said if people wants to do that kind of gameplay they will need to be ready to keep up with what is recquired to compete. I also know there is min-maxing as you call it but that again, it's something everybody deals with not just in PvE.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote not only on this thread but also on the patch notes thread, my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

@Chori You say you support these changes because you want all players to have access to the good items not just the top 1%? How exactly do these changes give the rest of the player base access to these items? BoP means they cannot be sold or traded so the ONLY way to get them will be doing the content. Since only the end game players can complete the content with everything being BoP that would mean only the end game players would have those items.

There would be not be more access to them for the players who do not do trials, instead there would be NO ACCESS to them without doing the trials. As things stand now the drops that are BoE in trials give players who cannot complete the vet trials a way to buy that gear. If this change goes through that will be taken away. It hurts the other 99% of the players just as much as it hurts those of us who do end game content by locking those items behind a wall of the top content.

We have no problem helping others get the gear that is BoP now since we can finance helping others by selling BoE drops.
However without those BoE drops there is no incentive to help other players get the top line BoP gear because all helping them will do is cost us both time and a lot of money, so it will become either a ransom system of pay 500k to get carried through a trial for a chance at the gear you want, or do not get it at all.

That is a system that will be toxic to both sides in the community and end up hurting the game for everyone.

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials to get on trials leaderboards. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards.

I dont do trials competitively but I can tell you that if people that competes don't want to adapt or dont want to make their money from outside a trial drop that is not an issue of the rest of the player base. I don't go around telling ppl how to raid, but I know how they run and what you need to run with in order to make a difference and compete, which is why I said if people wants to do that kind of gameplay they will need to be ready to keep up with what is recquired to compete. I also know there is min-maxing as you call it but that again, it's something everybody deals with not just in PvE.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote not only on this thread but also on the patch notes thread, my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

@Chori You say you support these changes because you want all players to have access to the good items not just the top 1%? How exactly do these changes give the rest of the player base access to these items? BoP means they cannot be sold or traded so the ONLY way to get them will be doing the content. Since only the end game players can complete the content with everything being BoP that would mean only the end game players would have those items.

There would be not be more access to them for the players who do not do trials, instead there would be NO ACCESS to them without doing the trials. As things stand now the drops that are BoE in trials give players who cannot complete the vet trials a way to buy that gear. If this change goes through that will be taken away. It hurts the other 99% of the players just as much as it hurts those of us who do end game content by locking those items behind a wall of the top content.

We have no problem helping others get the gear that is BoP now since we can finance helping others by selling BoE drops.
However without those BoE drops there is no incentive to help other players get the top line BoP gear because all helping them will do is cost us both time and a lot of money, so it will become either a ransom system of pay 500k to get carried through a trial for a chance at the gear you want, or do not get it at all.

That is a system that will be toxic to both sides in the community and end up hurting the game for everyone.

Wrong, the pieces will still be able to be obtained just thru zone drops and new veteran dungeon drops, just not gold. Now tell me, what is easier and faster to do for the average player? a vet trial/normal trial or a normal/vet 4 man dungeon / zone drop. If the change goes thru it would help all those players who certainly do not have the money to afford being on a trial or even a group/guild, nor have the time a day to spend the amount of time needed in order to finish a trial run. You need to read the patch notes better.

Dromede wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials to get on trials leaderboards. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards.

I dont do trials competitively but I can tell you that if people that competes don't want to adapt or dont want to make their money from outside a trial drop that is not an issue of the rest of the player base. I don't go around telling ppl how to raid, but I know how they run and what you need to run with in order to make a difference and compete, which is why I said if people wants to do that kind of gameplay they will need to be ready to keep up with what is recquired to compete. I also know there is min-maxing as you call it but that again, it's something everybody deals with not just in PvE.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote not only on this thread but also on the patch notes thread, my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

@Chori You say you support these changes because you want all players to have access to the good items not just the top 1%? How exactly do these changes give the rest of the player base access to these items? BoP means they cannot be sold or traded so the ONLY way to get them will be doing the content. Since only the end game players can complete the content with everything being BoP that would mean only the end game players would have those items.

There would be not be more access to them for the players who do not do trials, instead there would be NO ACCESS to them without doing the trials. As things stand now the drops that are BoE in trials give players who cannot complete the vet trials a way to buy that gear. If this change goes through that will be taken away. It hurts the other 99% of the players just as much as it hurts those of us who do end game content by locking those items behind a wall of the top content.

We have no problem helping others get the gear that is BoP now since we can finance helping others by selling BoE drops.
However without those BoE drops there is no incentive to help other players get the top line BoP gear because all helping them will do is cost us both time and a lot of money, so it will become either a ransom system of pay 500k to get carried through a trial for a chance at the gear you want, or do not get it at all.

That is a system that will be toxic to both sides in the community and end up hurting the game for everyone.

Wrong, the pieces will still be able to be obtained just thru zone drops and new veteran dungeon drops, just not gold. Now tell me, what is easier and faster to do for the average player? a vet trial/normal trial or a normal/vet 4 man dungeon / zone drop. If the change goes thru it would help all those players who certainly do not have the money to afford being on a trial or even a group/guild, nor have the time a day to spend the amount of time needed in order to finish a trial run. You need to read the patch notes better.

Do you think that solo grinding dolmens will wield you a better chance of getting green jewelry vs running SO farm of 12 people who can trade even bop items? NSO farm takes about 1 hr, nMOL - 30 min with a semi-experienced group. I know i'd rather run a trial twice than camp a dolmen 20 times for a chance of getting green, maybe blue or very unlikely purple jewelry.

I don't know anyone who'll be happy using green jewelry to begin with. Or camp bosses/dolmens to get gear. That's just mind numbing.

This is a good point. Everyone praising the overworld loot seems to be forgetting that Purple and Gold Quality Jewelry are going to be rare as rain on mars. Players who've got their sun pieces in Gold or Purple already are going to have decidedly larger numerical advantages.

To say nothing of all the infallible/moondancer Alkosh/Ophidian jewelry that is now going to be *blue quality only* in normal trials.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Dromede wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials to get on trials leaderboards. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards.

I dont do trials competitively but I can tell you that if people that competes don't want to adapt or dont want to make their money from outside a trial drop that is not an issue of the rest of the player base. I don't go around telling ppl how to raid, but I know how they run and what you need to run with in order to make a difference and compete, which is why I said if people wants to do that kind of gameplay they will need to be ready to keep up with what is recquired to compete. I also know there is min-maxing as you call it but that again, it's something everybody deals with not just in PvE.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote not only on this thread but also on the patch notes thread, my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

@Chori You say you support these changes because you want all players to have access to the good items not just the top 1%? How exactly do these changes give the rest of the player base access to these items? BoP means they cannot be sold or traded so the ONLY way to get them will be doing the content. Since only the end game players can complete the content with everything being BoP that would mean only the end game players would have those items.

There would be not be more access to them for the players who do not do trials, instead there would be NO ACCESS to them without doing the trials. As things stand now the drops that are BoE in trials give players who cannot complete the vet trials a way to buy that gear. If this change goes through that will be taken away. It hurts the other 99% of the players just as much as it hurts those of us who do end game content by locking those items behind a wall of the top content.

We have no problem helping others get the gear that is BoP now since we can finance helping others by selling BoE drops.
However without those BoE drops there is no incentive to help other players get the top line BoP gear because all helping them will do is cost us both time and a lot of money, so it will become either a ransom system of pay 500k to get carried through a trial for a chance at the gear you want, or do not get it at all.

That is a system that will be toxic to both sides in the community and end up hurting the game for everyone.

Wrong, the pieces will still be able to be obtained just thru zone drops and new veteran dungeon drops, just not gold. Now tell me, what is easier and faster to do for the average player? a vet trial/normal trial or a normal/vet 4 man dungeon / zone drop. If the change goes thru it would help all those players who certainly do not have the money to afford being on a trial or even a group/guild, nor have the time a day to spend the amount of time needed in order to finish a trial run. You need to read the patch notes better.

Do you think that solo grinding dolmens will wield you a better chance of getting green jewelry vs running SO farm of 12 people who can trade even bop items? NSO farm takes about 1 hr, nMOL - 30 min with a semi-experienced group. I know i'd rather run a trial twice than camp a dolmen 20 times for a chance of getting green, maybe blue or very unlikely purple jewelry.

I don't know anyone who'll be happy using green jewelry to begin with. Or camp bosses/dolmens to get gear. That's just mind numbing.

This is a good point. Everyone praising the overworld loot seems to be forgetting that Purple and Gold Quality Jewelry are going to be rare as rain on mars. Players who've got their sun pieces in Gold or Purple already are going to have decidedly larger numerical advantages.

To say nothing of all the infallible/moondancer Alkosh/Ophidian jewelry that is now going to be *blue quality only* in normal trials.

Although I can see the validity of your argument, lets put this into the perspective of someone not a raiding guild.

Hi do you want to spend 200k learning a vet trial with a group you dont know exists yet just to then spend 50k per run to eventually raise that blue ring to purple?

Just not going to happen

Humatiel wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Dromede wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials to get on trials leaderboards. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards.

I dont do trials competitively but I can tell you that if people that competes don't want to adapt or dont want to make their money from outside a trial drop that is not an issue of the rest of the player base. I don't go around telling ppl how to raid, but I know how they run and what you need to run with in order to make a difference and compete, which is why I said if people wants to do that kind of gameplay they will need to be ready to keep up with what is recquired to compete. I also know there is min-maxing as you call it but that again, it's something everybody deals with not just in PvE.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote not only on this thread but also on the patch notes thread, my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

@Chori You say you support these changes because you want all players to have access to the good items not just the top 1%? How exactly do these changes give the rest of the player base access to these items? BoP means they cannot be sold or traded so the ONLY way to get them will be doing the content. Since only the end game players can complete the content with everything being BoP that would mean only the end game players would have those items.

There would be not be more access to them for the players who do not do trials, instead there would be NO ACCESS to them without doing the trials. As things stand now the drops that are BoE in trials give players who cannot complete the vet trials a way to buy that gear. If this change goes through that will be taken away. It hurts the other 99% of the players just as much as it hurts those of us who do end game content by locking those items behind a wall of the top content.

We have no problem helping others get the gear that is BoP now since we can finance helping others by selling BoE drops.
However without those BoE drops there is no incentive to help other players get the top line BoP gear because all helping them will do is cost us both time and a lot of money, so it will become either a ransom system of pay 500k to get carried through a trial for a chance at the gear you want, or do not get it at all.

That is a system that will be toxic to both sides in the community and end up hurting the game for everyone.

Wrong, the pieces will still be able to be obtained just thru zone drops and new veteran dungeon drops, just not gold. Now tell me, what is easier and faster to do for the average player? a vet trial/normal trial or a normal/vet 4 man dungeon / zone drop. If the change goes thru it would help all those players who certainly do not have the money to afford being on a trial or even a group/guild, nor have the time a day to spend the amount of time needed in order to finish a trial run. You need to read the patch notes better.

Do you think that solo grinding dolmens will wield you a better chance of getting green jewelry vs running SO farm of 12 people who can trade even bop items? NSO farm takes about 1 hr, nMOL - 30 min with a semi-experienced group. I know i'd rather run a trial twice than camp a dolmen 20 times for a chance of getting green, maybe blue or very unlikely purple jewelry.

I don't know anyone who'll be happy using green jewelry to begin with. Or camp bosses/dolmens to get gear. That's just mind numbing.

This is a good point. Everyone praising the overworld loot seems to be forgetting that Purple and Gold Quality Jewelry are going to be rare as rain on mars. Players who've got their sun pieces in Gold or Purple already are going to have decidedly larger numerical advantages.

To say nothing of all the infallible/moondancer Alkosh/Ophidian jewelry that is now going to be *blue quality only* in normal trials.

Although I can see the validity of your argument, lets put this into the perspective of someone not a raiding guild.

Hi do you want to spend 200k learning a vet trial with a group you dont know exists yet just to then spend 50k per run to eventually raise that blue ring to purple?

Just not going to happen

Fair, but this thread has nothing to do with the non raider. This is from the raiders perspective.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Dromede wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Vitaely wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Good decisions should be made for the greater good and this patch offers that, something better for the greater good of that amount of players left that are not interested whatsoever on spending the amount of money and dedication in order to farm things on a trial and could fo it ona 4 man dungeon.

How is removing Bind on Equip items "for the greater good" ? You do realize that trial and dungeon sets are different, right?
And while you can get decent prices for potions, NA is not the only server out there. PS4 EU, PC EU both suffer from insane prices.

Chori wrote: »

I get you dont want to pick up flowers though I really do, because I dont want to either but I have to in order to do something I want in the game and if you dont want to do something in the game according to what the "meta recquired to be on a leaderboard" asks you for, then adapt and change your build.

People that want to compete will find a way to compete and people that just want to have fun will have fun, saying no to a patch because leaderboard players will have to work harder for their place is extremelly ridiculous since those players are probably the 1% of the whole player base.

Uhm, beyond the fact that I said in my post, that I'm one of the people actually farming flowers, I fail to understand how you "adapt" your build to work without potions, especially if you're a magicka sorcerer. Though that holds for every class in PvE : to be competitive, you need potions.
As for the whole "leaderboard players will have to work harder", that doesn't make any sense. The content will not be more difficult, it will merely yield a surprising lack of reward, and therefore motivation to do it, apart for Weekly, or vanity/pride purposes. And that's not even going into the whole disappointing RNG issue in this game.

An example for instance: player X has farmed normal and vet versions of AA all summer to get Necropotence jewerly pieces. "Farmed" meaning several runs per day for over a month and a half. Not once did this jewerly drop. As of now, the player can go to the store and simply buy it for 45k+ and spare himself more countless hours of pointless farming. (Though it is somewhat rewarding now, considering you can sell the other BoE items you get). After the patch however, this option will be removed. It will all be down to a question of luck in looting. And relying solely on "luck" for end-game, competitive items that are now available for purchase, just doesn't feel right.

Pretty simple if in order to compete you need potions, then you should think of why you need potions. Because you need major sorcery? because you need major brutality? (two of them can be used in game by different builds/skills which means lost of DPS, something you'd have to deal with), crit?, more regen? Again, all those stats can be adapted on your build but you will deal less dmg and that's when the competition starts because other people will want to push those stats higher and you have to deal with it like it or not. That's what it is to compete.

Chori, what's your point? Do you frequently do these trials competitively?

Raiders don't do this grind for loot. We do it for progression and leaderboards. There's no way you can reach competitive DPS if you drop 2 skills that provide dots and survivability from your bar just to get major sorcery/prophecy/brutality/savagery. This is how you complete hard modes. This is how you progress. This is min-maxing. There's no way around it.

You shouldn't go around telling people to how to farm trials to get on trials leaderboards. It isn't very different from grinding AP to stay high on PVP leaderboards.

I dont do trials competitively but I can tell you that if people that competes don't want to adapt or dont want to make their money from outside a trial drop that is not an issue of the rest of the player base. I don't go around telling ppl how to raid, but I know how they run and what you need to run with in order to make a difference and compete, which is why I said if people wants to do that kind of gameplay they will need to be ready to keep up with what is recquired to compete. I also know there is min-maxing as you call it but that again, it's something everybody deals with not just in PvE.

Now if you read carefully what I wrote not only on this thread but also on the patch notes thread, my point is that I suport these changes. Because I am in favor of giving something good to the rest of the player base and not just to the 1% that wants to compete at the top, and because it caters casual players or people that don't have the time to log for more than a couple hours a day to have a better access to what are now sets that get their price sky rocketing.

@Chori You say you support these changes because you want all players to have access to the good items not just the top 1%? How exactly do these changes give the rest of the player base access to these items? BoP means they cannot be sold or traded so the ONLY way to get them will be doing the content. Since only the end game players can complete the content with everything being BoP that would mean only the end game players would have those items.

There would be not be more access to them for the players who do not do trials, instead there would be NO ACCESS to them without doing the trials. As things stand now the drops that are BoE in trials give players who cannot complete the vet trials a way to buy that gear. If this change goes through that will be taken away. It hurts the other 99% of the players just as much as it hurts those of us who do end game content by locking those items behind a wall of the top content.

We have no problem helping others get the gear that is BoP now since we can finance helping others by selling BoE drops.
However without those BoE drops there is no incentive to help other players get the top line BoP gear because all helping them will do is cost us both time and a lot of money, so it will become either a ransom system of pay 500k to get carried through a trial for a chance at the gear you want, or do not get it at all.

That is a system that will be toxic to both sides in the community and end up hurting the game for everyone.

Wrong, the pieces will still be able to be obtained just thru zone drops and new veteran dungeon drops, just not gold. Now tell me, what is easier and faster to do for the average player? a vet trial/normal trial or a normal/vet 4 man dungeon / zone drop. If the change goes thru it would help all those players who certainly do not have the money to afford being on a trial or even a group/guild, nor have the time a day to spend the amount of time needed in order to finish a trial run. You need to read the patch notes better.

Do you think that solo grinding dolmens will wield you a better chance of getting green jewelry vs running SO farm of 12 people who can trade even bop items? NSO farm takes about 1 hr, nMOL - 30 min with a semi-experienced group. I know i'd rather run a trial twice than camp a dolmen 20 times for a chance of getting green, maybe blue or very unlikely purple jewelry.

I don't know anyone who'll be happy using green jewelry to begin with. Or camp bosses/dolmens to get gear. That's just mind numbing.

This is a good point. Everyone praising the overworld loot seems to be forgetting that Purple and Gold Quality Jewelry are going to be rare as rain on mars. Players who've got their sun pieces in Gold or Purple already are going to have decidedly larger numerical advantages.

To say nothing of all the infallible/moondancer Alkosh/Ophidian jewelry that is now going to be *blue quality only* in normal trials.

Although I can see the validity of your argument, lets put this into the perspective of someone not a raiding guild.

Hi do you want to spend 200k learning a vet trial with a group you dont know exists yet just to then spend 50k per run to eventually raise that blue ring to purple?

Just not going to happen

Fair, but this thread has nothing to do with the non raider. This is from the raiders perspective.

Seems a lot of people dont really realise this sadly, causing a lot of arguments

Transairion wrote: »

Do you think that solo grinding dolmens will wield you a better chance of getting green jewelry vs running SO farm of 12 people who can trade even bop items? NSO farm takes about 1 hr, nMOL - 30 min with a semi-experienced group. I know i'd rather run a trial twice than camp a dolmen 20 times for a chance of getting green, maybe blue or very unlikely purple jewelry.

Er, solo grinding dolems will give you a 100% chance at jewelry from that area's particular sets.

Fair, but this thread has nothing to do with the non raider. This is from the raiders perspective.

Seems a lot of people dont really realise this sadly, causing a lot of arguments

To be fair, the thread says "endgame" and I didn't realize the definition of endgame was "Trials or GTFO" and not "anything at max level (CP160). I would wager the raiders, as a whole, are a tiny minority of the total playerbase.

Dismissing the benefits to non-raiding players outright just because this is bad for raiders is a little unfair... and this was before I even learned the best raiding jewelry for normal modes will now be blue quality. Unless jewelry improvement is being added in, that a HUGE nerf to all non-Hard Mode Trial players.

Trials are the only true endgame content we have in terms of max level content, everything else can be scaled down, I believe on this PTS trials can no longer be scaled, which they should never have in the first place

I already stated that raiding community is very small, but you are missing the point here, my argument is that trials removing BoE from them, if you read the whole post I am not against the removal I am against the fact there is nothing now that trials provides that can somewhat cover the cost of raiding, which will inevitably end in a downfall

i like gated gear, i like gear that is bop, but I do not like we don't have any options now for raiding.

Either people are simply commenting based on the topic title or skipping through the OP

I will copy it from my OP

2) If Zenimax are standing by this change, then something needs to be changed about the 10,000 Gold Reward (every 5 days, really?) 10,000 Gold on a cooldown, with the prices how they currently are, this sum is so small, and this is where I believe Zenimax need to sympathize, because I know for a fact you guys and I am speaking to the combat developers, know how punishing trials are you guys know how much gold is poured into them and the strain that goes into it. I think the 10,000 gold with a 5 day cooldown which will barely cover 100 potions will need to be adjusted if this system is going live.

3) We could also keep the BoP system, and slightly increase the reward of the weekly trial, but not by much and we could also have our BoP legendary loot sell to vendors a lot more than they do

Remember, I like this system I think it is good, and I personally would like option 2 to be looked in to.

I already stated that raiding community is very small, but you are missing the point here, my argument is that trials removing BoE from them, if you read the whole post I am not against the removal I am against the fact there is nothing now that trials provides that can somewhat cover the cost of raiding, which will inevitably end in a downfall

i like gated gear, i like gear that is bop, but I do not like we don't have any options now for raiding.

Either people are simply commenting based on the topic title or skipping through the OP

I'll repost this here since I think it got a little buried; but some people seemed to like it.

Transairion wrote: »

No, in the OP I am asking them to explore ways to cover the cost of trials, removing BoE is a huge problem for this, and I believe they need other ways for the end game to cover the cost of trials that isn't too daunting

Methinks this is awfully simple to fix, no?

Trials
•Aetherian Archive: Healing Mage, Quick Serpent, Defending Warrior
•Hel Ra Citadel: Destruction Mage, Poisonous Serpent, Berserking Warrior
•Maw of Lorkhaj: Twilight Remedy, Moondancer, Roar of Alkosh, Lunar Bastion
•Sanctum Ophidia: Wise Mage, Twice-Fanged Serpent, Immortal Warrior
•Aetherian Archive / Hel Ra Citadel / Sanctum Ophidia: Infallible Mage, Vicious Serpent, Eternal Warrior

These sets will be the only ones to drop, and will all be BoP. So why not just give them all a big vendor price?

If they vendored for something like 1k each, every drop you get that you aren't going to use is just gold in your pocket. Or the gold dropped by trash NPC's could go way up from the 1-2 gold they give now (I assume they'll still drop trash items worth 20ish gold too). In any result the BoP gear stays the same, just rewards you more for getting stuff you don't want.

IMO giving BoP Trial gear a big vendor price (1k was my pulled-from-my-ass suggestion) is the easiest way to reward raiders from getting gear they don't want, since they can now only sell to their group members (and guilds will just trade them away for free).

I would guess ZOS is hesitant to reward something like the 10k gold item for simply doing the mission, since while it WOULD cover raiding costs it would probably be like printing free gold for Normal Mode, and maybe not even enough for Hard Mode Trials.

For all of those who are against this thread and saying all this BoP benefits all players accept endgame trial players take this into account and tell me how it is beneficial to others to have all trial and dungeon drops BoP.

Player X is an end game player who enjoys running vet dungeons and trials. Player Y is a new player who just wants to level up quick and then PVP.

Player X in the updated system has multiple sets of Vipers jewelry and Sharpened vipers weapons they can do nothing with but decon instead of being able to sell.

Player Y would like those items, but instead of having the chance to just farm materials for a couple hours that they can sell to buy those items they now have to grind a dungeon they do not want to do at all at the mercy of RNG.

Now it may take player Y hundreds of hours of grinding to get that gear he could have bought from player X with a couple hours work.

As I see it that makes both player X and player Y lose.

So if both players lose how is this change actually helping either of them? In truth it is harming the game play for them both.

Transairion wrote: »

I already stated that raiding community is very small, but you are missing the point here, my argument is that trials removing BoE from them, if you read the whole post I am not against the removal I am against the fact there is nothing now that trials provides that can somewhat cover the cost of raiding, which will inevitably end in a downfall

i like gated gear, i like gear that is bop, but I do not like we don't have any options now for raiding.

Either people are simply commenting based on the topic title or skipping through the OP

I'll repost this here since I think it got a little buried; but some people seemed to like it.

Transairion wrote: »

No, in the OP I am asking them to explore ways to cover the cost of trials, removing BoE is a huge problem for this, and I believe they need other ways for the end game to cover the cost of trials that isn't too daunting

Methinks this is awfully simple to fix, no?

Trials
•Aetherian Archive: Healing Mage, Quick Serpent, Defending Warrior
•Hel Ra Citadel: Destruction Mage, Poisonous Serpent, Berserking Warrior
•Maw of Lorkhaj: Twilight Remedy, Moondancer, Roar of Alkosh, Lunar Bastion
•Sanctum Ophidia: Wise Mage, Twice-Fanged Serpent, Immortal Warrior
•Aetherian Archive / Hel Ra Citadel / Sanctum Ophidia: Infallible Mage, Vicious Serpent, Eternal Warrior

These sets will be the only ones to drop, and will all be BoP. So why not just give them all a big vendor price?

If they vendored for something like 1k each, every drop you get that you aren't going to use is just gold in your pocket. Or the gold dropped by trash NPC's could go way up from the 1-2 gold they give now (I assume they'll still drop trash items worth 20ish gold too). In any result the BoP gear stays the same, just rewards you more for getting stuff you don't want.

IMO giving BoP Trial gear a big vendor price (1k was my pulled-from-my-ass suggestion) is the easiest way to reward raiders from getting gear they don't want, since they can now only sell to their group members (and guilds will just trade them away for free).

I would guess ZOS is hesitant to reward something like the 10k gold item for simply doing the mission, since while it WOULD cover raiding costs it would probably be like printing free gold for Normal Mode, and maybe not even enough for Hard Mode Trials.

To be fair, I'm only supportive of giving out 2500-5000 trophies on bosses in Veteran Mode. Normals can be done in 20 minutes and the crap ornate loot that drops could easily finance the minimal cost in repairs and potions.

Vitaely wrote: »

It's kinda sad the only ZOS reply we get on this long haul of a thread is flame/bait moderation.

Pinging CMs and then complaining will only get the whole thread filed under "people b****ing, ignore". It's probably already filed under "people arguing, ignore"; which is a shame, but I couldn't really blame them.