Bugs and Ninja Nerfing: lightning staff, Fighter's guild, speed, and pets... What else?

the_Beard · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We certainly never intend to purposely not include information in the patch notes. We'll follow up early next week and figure out what the deal here is.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_Finn , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , any update on this ?

Rykmaar · September 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

@Wrobel I will try to refrain from any unnecessary name calling but I can't stay silent on this one.

If this is going to stay in the live update then PUT IT IN THE PATCH NOTES please. This is not a bug fix unless it is acknowledged in the patch notes as a bug or otherwise stated by a dev in the forums to be a bug. It is a malicious stealth nerf as previously mentioned in the thread.

The lightning AOE isn't OP. It's a tradeoff like many other builds in this game. Compared to other AOE options it comes with some additional risks/downsides.
You cannot move at maximum speed, so moving out of red is more difficult

You cannot block during the channel (dangerous AF in pvp)

The target can move out of the group and it can be difficult to target an ideal center mob.

The radius of the AOE isn't really that big. I would guess about 4-5m.

I think the real question though: Why is this a problem that needed fixing?
Do you get complaints from pvpers? I've never been even close to outright killed by a lightning channel or the splash damagel, and when I do see it on my death recap the tick is for < 1k. I tried using a sharpened lightning with 3k spell damage 40k magicka and it still hit for less than a single tick of vigor every time.

Do you get complaints from pve players? I legitimately cannot imagine ANY pve players complaining that mag dps is too high. Quite literally every single end game pve guild parrots the massive dps superiority of stamina.

You don't want to directly boost magicka dps? Fine. But please stop killing it. Thank you.

It's a problem because it enabled magicka users to be competitive with stam in a few specific PvE instances.

No kidding. Elder Stam Online is real.

Staves need a redesign!

Tell you what, they're good about working on the cash shop though.

SirMewser · September 2016

Rykmaar wrote: »

No kidding. Elder Stam Online is real.

Staves need a redesign!

Tell you what, they're good about working on the cash shop though.

To be honest, at this point I could care less how well they do with the cash shop. The changes they made impacted most of the character's I play (magic) which has reduced my interest on playing them so why would I spend money on them? These changes have also created a fear of what they are capable of doing to my stamina builds, so I choose not to spend anything on them either.

There is nothing fun about killing things fast.
There is nothing fun about being penalized for a certain playstyle.
The game is easy when I choose not to play the way I want.

Thraben · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We certainly never intend to purposely not include information in the patch notes. We'll follow up early next week and figure out what the deal here is.

No one ever said the AoE effect with every tick was a problem for the game´s balance. If it´s reverted back to "last tick only", it just kills diversity in the game.

But if the devs want it so, then they should be consequent, and redesign the frost and lightning heavy attacks AGAIN, so that they work as a "drain stamina (frost)/drain magicka(lightning)" - skill, like in Skyrim.

iam117 · September 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel and @zos_whoeverneedstobetagged Please dont let this change stay, it is one of the VERY few things magicka has going for it atm, this change will even further the stigma that is making stam more desirable in end game. it is not OP in any way, not even in pvp. but it does allow magicka classes to be extremely useful in aoe situations. changing the lightning staff as it currently works on live will not only damage magicka builds as a whole, but alot of peoples current builds in order to be usefull at end game. The general consensus both on forum and in game is against this, there is no reason for it, if there is could you at least enlighten us as to why its so horrendus?

Minno · September 2016

The Magicka staff lines do need a review on how they perform in both pvp and pve. The "nerf" on lighting staff attacks is a bit weird considering the following:
- heavy attack goes through dodge
- directly combats zergs tactics
- splash dmg did not seem OP (maybe if build specifically for heavy attack dmg but very niche builds)

We probably need skill balance for this patch instead of next.

Drummerx04 · September 2016

Minno wrote: »

The Magicka staff lines do need a review on how they perform in both pvp and pve. The "nerf" on lighting staff attacks is a bit weird considering the following:
- heavy attack goes through dodge
- directly combats zergs tactics
- splash dmg did not seem OP (maybe if build specifically for heavy attack dmg but very niche builds)

We probably need skill balance for this patch instead of next.

I tried a lightning staff for that exact reason... and let me tell you, if you channel a lightning staff attack at a zerg, you might as well place a neon sign over your head that reads, "HEY THERE, I'M NOT BLOCKING AND I HAVE LOW STAMINA POOL, SO ANY CC/HARD HITTING SKILLS SHOULD BE DIRECTED MY WAY!"

Also, hitting through dodge doesn't mean too much when vigor+rally heals twice as much health as your staff takes away.

Swindy · September 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

The Magicka staff lines do need a review on how they perform in both pvp and pve. The "nerf" on lighting staff attacks is a bit weird considering the following:
- heavy attack goes through dodge
- directly combats zergs tactics
- splash dmg did not seem OP (maybe if build specifically for heavy attack dmg but very niche builds)

We probably need skill balance for this patch instead of next.

I tried a lightning staff for that exact reason... and let me tell you, if you channel a lightning staff attack at a zerg, you might as well place a neon sign over your head that reads, "HEY THERE, I'M NOT BLOCKING AND I HAVE LOW STAMINA POOL, SO ANY CC/HARD HITTING SKILLS SHOULD BE DIRECTED MY WAY!"

Also, hitting through dodge doesn't mean too much when vigor+rally heals twice as much health as your staff takes away.

^^^
This.
But I did it anyway.

KingYogi415 · September 2016

The VMA lighting staff proced whole mobs with aethr. This is clearly a fix for that cheese!

code65536 · September 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

The VMA lighting staff proced whole mobs with aethr. This is clearly a fix for that cheese!

Please get your facts straight. The AoE splash does not apply Aether.

RoyJade · September 2016

I really think that the "fix" was caused because we can apply Aether debuff with the first tick of the canalized HA with a thunder/restro staff. They probably un-tagged all tick but the last from being a "fully HA".
Now, they need to apply a particular tag on each restro/thunder HA tick (except for the last one) who work with each "fully charged HA" except the Aether one. Or they can give molten armaments, bound armament, aether damage, sergeant and maelstrom damage a special proc on each thunder/restro HA tick, or a cumulated burst of all these boost for the final tick.

Minno · September 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

The Magicka staff lines do need a review on how they perform in both pvp and pve. The "nerf" on lighting staff attacks is a bit weird considering the following:
- heavy attack goes through dodge
- directly combats zergs tactics
- splash dmg did not seem OP (maybe if build specifically for heavy attack dmg but very niche builds)

We probably need skill balance for this patch instead of next.

I tried a lightning staff for that exact reason... and let me tell you, if you channel a lightning staff attack at a zerg, you might as well place a neon sign over your head that reads, "HEY THERE, I'M NOT BLOCKING AND I HAVE LOW STAMINA POOL, SO ANY CC/HARD HITTING SKILLS SHOULD BE DIRECTED MY WAY!"

Also, hitting through dodge doesn't mean too much when vigor+rally heals twice as much health as your staff takes away.

It's about the direct hit always happening. For staff users you have two weapon options to negate dodge mechanics, and one of those is the healing staff. The dmg could never be justified for use

.

That lighting staff also gives the concussed debuff which, aside from reduced incoming dmg buffs, is to important. This means (with another group mind you) if you drop WoE at a chokepoint and use heavy attack, your guaranteed to set some players concussed/off balance allowing your teammates to have their skills hit harder (assuming some of them are stam and have increased dmg towards off balanced enemies)

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

The VMA lighting staff proced whole mobs with aethr. This is clearly a fix for that cheese!

You have no idea what you are talking about...

Shadesofkin · September 2016

KingYogi415 wrote: »

The VMA lighting staff proced whole mobs with aethr. This is clearly a fix for that cheese!

You know this is wrong, yeah?

Toast_STS · September 2016

I have been using lightning staff for a while. They have changed the AoE damage the last couple patches and as far as I know they were never in the patch notes.

There was also a patch a while ago where the patch notes said lightning and resto were fixed to proc the Mephala's set. For this they changed all ticks of a heavy attack to count as a heavy attack so other sets that also did extra damage to heavy attacks became usable with the lightning staff. I think this also caused all ticks of lightning staff to do AoE damage.

then there were the ninja adjustments that I did not see in any patch notes:
Update 10 lightning staff AoE damage was buffed from 15% to 170%
Update 11 lightning staff AoE damage was nerfed from 170% to 140%
Now on PTS the AoE damage is 104% and only procs off the last hit.

I tested it on PTS and the AoE damage is the only nerf. vMA lightning staff was still boosting all the ticks on a lightning staff so I am hoping aether and the other sets are unaffected too.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Toast_STS wrote: »

I have been using lightning staff for a while. They have changed the AoE damage the last couple patches and as far as I know they were never in the patch notes.

There was also a patch a while ago where the patch notes said lightning and resto were fixed to proc the Mephala's set. For this they changed all ticks of a heavy attack to count as a heavy attack so other sets that also did extra damage to heavy attacks became usable with the lightning staff. I think this also caused all ticks of lightning staff to do AoE damage.

then there were the ninja adjustments that I did not see in any patch notes:
Update 10 lightning staff AoE damage was buffed from 15% to 170%
Update 11 lightning staff AoE damage was nerfed from 170% to 140%
Now on PTS the AoE damage is 104% and only procs off the last hit.

I tested it on PTS and the AoE damage is the only nerf. vMA lightning staff was still boosting all the ticks on a lightning staff so I am hoping aether and the other sets are unaffected too.

The issue is that the whole point of the staff was to be effective in AoE...

Toast_STS · September 2016

On second thought the vMA staff boosts light and heavy attack damage and aether is heavy attack damage only. I do not know if this set was affected, I do not have it on PC to test.

Has anyone tested the aether set with a lightning staff yet?

hrothbern · September 2016

Toast_STS wrote: »

On second thought the vMA staff boost light and heavy attack damage and aether is heavy attack damage only. I do not know if this set was affected, I do not have it on PC to test.

Has anyone tested the aether set yet?

Sergeant's mail works on PTS the same as on live (Heavy Attacks)

EDIT
and Noble duellist silkes as well (for LA & HA)

Toast_STS · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Toast_STS wrote: »

I have been using lightning staff for a while. They have changed the AoE damage the last couple patches and as far as I know they were never in the patch notes.

There was also a patch a while ago where the patch notes said lightning and resto were fixed to proc the Mephala's set. For this they changed all ticks of a heavy attack to count as a heavy attack so other sets that also did extra damage to heavy attacks became usable with the lightning staff. I think this also caused all ticks of lightning staff to do AoE damage.

then there were the ninja adjustments that I did not see in any patch notes:
Update 10 lightning staff AoE damage was buffed from 15% to 170%
Update 11 lightning staff AoE damage was nerfed from 170% to 140%
Now on PTS the AoE damage is 104% and only procs off the last hit.

I tested it on PTS and the AoE damage is the only nerf. vMA lightning staff was still boosting all the ticks on a lightning staff so I am hoping aether and the other sets are unaffected too.

The issue is that the whole point of the staff was to be effective in AoE...

I mean that's not what the OP was asking. But it's a little overtuned on live. I don't usually call for nerfs on my own builds but I can accept this.

Here is a clip, at 10 seconds in I do 3 ticks of a single heavy attack and it does 200K aoe damage. Fully charged with 4 ticks on 6 closely grouped mobs and it's more like 300k-400k damage from one heavy attack.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Toast STS/video/21346584

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2016

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Pandorii · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Thanks, Gina. This is hard to hear, but I'm thankful for the information.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Well RIP my builds...

Paulington · September 2016

That's a little disappointing since it's the only thing lightning staff has going for it currently, oh well.

WhiskeyJac · September 2016

If zenimax does not want lightning or frost based builds to be competitive, why even have them ?

Shadesofkin · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Thank you for letting us know.

Change it back.

dagonbeer · September 2016

WhiskeyJac wrote: »

If zenimax does not want lightning or frost based builds to be competitive, why even have them ?

RNG booby prize? Get to pick between your sharpened lightning and charged inferno?

redspecter23 · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

That's unfortunate. Do you think you might be able to convince them to look at it again and possibly revert the change? It was kinda nice seeing people using something other than fire staff, and no this does not mean I want a fire staff nerf

hrothbern · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Can we then now have the hope that the proc chance on elemental secondary effects will be increased for AOE ?

Iselin · September 2016

Channeled staves should do damage throughout the channel instead of just some at the end, you know? Sort of like channeled abilites. The "bugged" version was actually better design than the new "fixed" version.

hrothbern · September 2016

Iselin wrote: »

Channeled staves should do damage throughout the channel instead of just some at the end, you know? Sort of like channeled abilites. The "bugged" version was actually better design than the new "fixed" version.

Jep

This is more than a damage tweak

It is changing the character of the Lightning Staff
including the amount of Concussions for Minor Maim