The Removal of Bind on Equip from an Endgame Perspective

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you are afraid you will have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game. Got it now?

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

Nifty2g · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game.

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

Wrong, look at the bigger picture instead of trying to make it personal.

Loot removed from trials, which removes the way to sustain a steady way to be able to minmax for end game guilds, which will bleed a lot of people dry and then that also removes incentive to actually do the trial, because what is the reward, we all run this place weekly so we have all the current BoP loot we need (vicious, infal, moondancer etc). Please inform me what the incentive would be once BoE loot is gone and we can not sustain ways to minmax trials for leaderboard scores. To get that awesome 10,000 gold every 5 days?

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

So your argument is the need for a carrot and you call that "bigger picture"?

I do PvP every day, because I freaking love it. No rewards, no gold, nothing. I couldnt sustain myself a single day just by doing PvP and not do some farming inbetween. I think you lost perspective, as I said in my first reply to your OP.

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

double post

idk · September 2016

AJTC5000 wrote: »

A question to the endgame raiders on this thread - why do you raid? I'm interested in hearing your reasons.

It's what I enjoy most in the game. Unfortunately with the changes it will become the most costly activity in game. The only activity with a serious net loss while most activities in game have a net gold gain if these changes are implemented to live.

silvereyes · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

Nobody is suggesting that PvP shouldn't have more sources of gold. That would be a positive improvement, imo. Take it up with ZOS please.
You can always get gold for your AP. Sure, bartering for the exchange is a pain, but at least it's an option to turn the primary reward for your preferred play into gold. Update 12 completely removes any possibility of such conversion for raiders.
PvP gets plenty of sets that raiders never see.
Making BoE gold jewelry no longer available for trade means even fewer sets available to PvP too.

TL;DR Stop interfering with how content you aren't even participating in is being actively developed. It does nothing to improve your gameplay and it is hurtful to many people.

Nifty2g · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So your argument is the need for a carrot and you call that "bigger picture"?

I do PvP every day, because I freaking love it. No rewards, no gold, nothing. I couldnt sustain myself a single day just by doing PvP and not do some farming inbetween. I think you lost perspective, as I said in my first reply to your OP.

You didn't give me the incentive to do trials if this change goes live, do you really think it's healthy for the game to do this? Like I said, don't make it personal. PvP as a whole is no where near as demanding as an endgame trial is, to some yes it is, but overall PvP is much larger and broader content

I don't understand your argument lol

Carbonised · September 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Please inform me what the incentive would be once BoE loot is gone and we can not sustain ways to minmax trials for leaderboard scores. To get that awesome 10,000 gold every 5 days?

Then maybe, uhm, I don't know, STOP doing the friggin vet trials 20+ friggin times a week. It's not like someone's FORCING you to do them ad nauseam.

[Snip]

[Snip] plenty of PvP people use just as many pots as you do in trials, most pvp gear doesn't drop from pvp activity, it's in pve zones. Do you think people stop to pick flowers in Cyrodiil? As Mojo made clear to you, pvping also requires lots of pve grinding and farming to sustain themselves. [Snip]

I'm a crafter and gatherer, I have to pay 1M for every complete new motif this game drops. Last patch had 4 new motifs, next patch is 4 more motifs. Then comes material costs, motif stones etc etc. [Snip]

[Edit to remove flaming and baiting.]

Autolycus · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So your argument is the need for a carrot and you call that "bigger picture"?

I do PvP every day, because I freaking love it. No rewards, no gold, nothing. I couldnt sustain myself a single day just by doing PvP and not do some farming inbetween. I think you lost perspective, as I said in my first reply to your OP.

Doing nothing but pvp all day long is much more lucrative than running competitive trials. Complain about rng in coffers all you want, it still produces more coin for doing nothing but what you enjoy doing. Even some of the RotW pieces are worth something, so saying you get nothing for doing what you enjoy spending your time on is bunk.

The removal of BoE gear is like halving player kill AP and removal of D-ticks in pvp. Kill a couple of unfortunate players in IC and take their TV, and you just made 20k off of a Black Rose set piece. Spend a couple hours doing a hardmode trial and you've blown through a stack of potions and, if your group did well, you receive a 10k stipend as a reward (but only once per week), worth not even half the value of that stack of potions. This is after next update; at least on live currently we have that occasional diamond in the rough (like a BoE gold Viper ring that will likely find a buyer) to offset the costs. Besides, it's not like those here who are against the removal of BoE items are trying to get rich; most (if not all) of us so far have merely been eluding to the concept that BoE gear is practically the only way to make a humble stipend. That's assuming, of course, that we are "allowed" (lol) to play the content we want to play.

Nifty2g · September 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Please inform me what the incentive would be once BoE loot is gone and we can not sustain ways to minmax trials for leaderboard scores. To get that awesome 10,000 gold every 5 days?

Then maybe, uhm, I don't know, STOP doing the friggin vet trials 20+ friggin times a week. It's not like someone's FORCING you to do them ad nauseam.

[Snip]

[Snip] plenty of PvP people use just as many pots as you do in trials, most pvp gear doesn't drop from pvp activity, it's in pve zones. Do you think people stop to pick flowers in Cyrodiil? As Mojo made clear to you, pvping also requires lots of pve grinding and farming to sustain themselves. [Snip]

I'm a crafter and gatherer, I have to pay 1M for every complete new motif this game drops. Last patch had 4 new motifs, next patch is 4 more motifs. Then comes material costs, motif stones etc etc. [Snip]

[Edit to remove flaming and baiting.]

I raid lead the top NA guild, I don't have a choice, and if anything this thread is not about me, it is for my community.

code65536 · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So your argument is the need for a carrot and you call that "bigger picture"?

I do PvP every day, because I freaking love it. No rewards, no gold, nothing. I couldnt sustain myself a single day just by doing PvP and not do some farming inbetween. I think you lost perspective, as I said in my first reply to your OP.

I remember when VR16 first came out--all the BoE items purchased with AP became obsolete, and away went a major source of income for the PvP community. And there was much outcry over that. This is the endgame PvE version of that outcry.

Also, some of the things that affect endgame PvE affects PvP, too. A number of the potions commonly used in PvP cost even more than the potions typically used in PvE. Instead of dismissing the concerns from the PvE side of the pond, it might be good to look at ways to improve things for all players (e.g., doing something about potion availability).

potirondb16_ESO · September 2016

If they could actually wait one more DLC before they do that so we don't fall into a post-ic period type for raiding. In ESO core-group knows that raiding isn't the first objectives. Personnally, I think that they make trial hard enough so that they last forever in order to create less of them which is also the reason why the progression from normal trial to veteran trial represent such a huge gap.

So ... We know that creating a progression toward end-game isn't Zos first objective, which is alright, some of us would have liked it but overall we knew it wasn't gonna happend but we also know they like people to play there content. Latest statement about the removal of BoE items Inside trial was that they were hoping that people would actually run the trial in order to get the gear so that's why they've been doing that .. a position I can only oppose since the gear they are talking about is now out of the trial and would most likely agree with their first statement they needed set to put Inside dungeon... mostly a adequation of both would be right

.

So let's agree they created BoP Policy in order to get people running trial, now let's see why people would keep doing that.

Normal Trial

#1 The old set they revamp and reintroduce

Those set aren't going to be farm that much, most people already have a full set of those in their upgraded version and I don't think they will fall for theese set massively.

#2 The 3-pc jewellery

The 3-pc are nice at some extend but once again, I don't think people are gonna fall for it massively but some might like them.

#3 The Motif

If those motif are bind to cp160 run on normal you'll have far less group going at it that MoL could have right now.. there might be some player who would but some of them don't have 3 to 8 characther ready for the challenge... so overall it might be done but might not work as much as currently which is a good thing.

#4 The challenge

Normal mode are currently an appealing challenge for a part of the community, already good player might not find that this obvious, but social guild might enjoy it. So yes challenge may stick for some guild.

#5 Cash

No cash to be made except from Motif... it will once again reduce the amount of people who would work for it... but might be some.

Overall Chance: Under 50% chance someone will still be interested to run normal trial if they already were.

Veteral Trial

#1 The Items Inside trial

Already veteran raiding guild most likely have all they need but progression team might miss some key pièces so if they feel like they can succeed they might still go Inside trial for those.

*Depend if they still have a shot at it Inside normal if so it might drop

#2 The new Motif

Again already succeeding veteran raiding guild will most likely like to get those but progression team might not roll a veteran try in order to get those, they will most likely run in normal.

#3 The challenge

The Challenge is an hypothetical reward but it will draw people Inside veteran trial when they'll feel ready for it. As the gap is still important they will need to gather a team who's already overpowering normal mode...

#4 Cash

Without money making technique or with very limited one (10k a week from hard-mode meaning only the best among the best). Cash flow will become a negative impact for most people.

#5 The capacity

Most player as of right now don't have the capacity to run those trial, even if challenge is a part of the score I feel that on veteran trial the fact that those are hard ask for this

Overall Chance: I won't estimate that one as I lack some knowledge but it might end-up being the same scenario as IC for some team.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_KaiSchober you need to help developper understand that we want at every level of the raiding experience to feel like it's a rewarding process. Not only because the gear perspective but also from a progression perspective, people whom are getting richer use this cash to create potion and buy tempers, people also use that gear, try new combinaison. We liked the fact that raid could bring so much diverse objet.

Atm I can feel it's being treated as a regular dongeon with the same loot premise, it's not. We always have 12 people to care about. 12 people who are all Inside the group for different reason whether it's the money-making, the challenge, the fact they can do that one or anything else. We need to have space for everyone Inside trial as it is now. That,s what made trial become so popular and it's also what need to stick.

Please help them !

EDIT: Formatting

kojou · September 2016

NM...

Silver_Strider · September 2016

silvereyes wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

This gives incentive for players to do this content, and rewards players who can complete it.

If a game needs to give you an incentive to run content, other than gear, then that game has failed at providing meaningful content.

That makes no sense. The content is interesting in its own right the first few times, and gear is obviously an incentive. However, once you have all your desired gear, why would you keep playing the content if it is going to perpetually drain your gold?

Adding a consumable incentive like gold or BoE gear that can be sold adds to replay value, even after you have all your gear. This thread is specifically about end-game, which by definition, implies replayability. BoP gear drops don't provide that, but it hardly implies that the content isn't meaningful.

For 12 person Trials especially, participation is always going to be a challenge, just due to the logistics of organizing 12 people in a group. This BoP change will reduce replayability, reducing participation and making it even harder to find 11 others to group with. After finally revitalizing trials in SoH, this represents a step in the opposite direction. It's hardly surprising that people would object.

I'm of the mindset that once I get everything out of something, I don't run it anymore and since you yourself state a sleigh of reasons, I fail to see the reason others continue to farm them.

My definition of meaningful content is anything that is both challenging and rewarding, either thru recognition in the community or gear. Sure, trials were that at one point but that novelty has definitely moved on after 2 years of the same trials with only vMoL holding any sort of significance as far as I'm concerned.

The only thing I find entertaining about ESO anymore is the PvP because it's challenging; always changing, always the possibility of defeat, getting a name for yourself as someone, either as the hated enemy of 1 alliance or the savior of another.

Others will disagree but that's my feelings on it

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you are afraid you will have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game. Got it now?

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

It sounds like what you are saying is: it sucks for me so it should suck for you. How about being smart about it and saying it sucks for me, why not change the system so that's no longer the case.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Here is what will happen if this change goes live: Endgame guilds will have to resort to selling vMoL clears to supply their core teams with pots...I was never a fan of that idea, but it looks like a lot of people will have to resort to that.

potirondb16_ESO · September 2016

Yup PvP's been for a while the best source of reliable income the game had to offert, back when ravaging set was Worth over 200k a ring the Elite pvp-team could easily make money to sustain every possible gear modification scenario they could want to, same with Shadow Walker. Lately though, set have become way more common, and end-game set aren't selling for as much as they use to even if some piece of Equipment can still sell pretty well, but once again some gear is lock behind close ''Elite'' door such as Gold Vicious death and nontheless for 10 gold Vicious ring, there's a thousand common Leki's.

Personnally I like to pvp a little, I don't preferes it over end-game pve, but I enjoy doing some. The reality is, while I pvp, I hardly use any immovable potion, don't create that much poison and have pvp set which I bought with telvar because I had those since I prefere IC playstyle to open cyrodill. Over the time I gather enough AP to trade those for cash if I ever needed to.. and so did I with Tel Var.

The fact that I don't pvp competitivly don't make me a bad player but it sure does lower the overall cost of my pvp experience and it also lower my income. It's true that pvp gear should be upgraded more often and that reward of the worthy set should be too in order to keep a fresh source of income, but it is also true that they SHOULD remains a source of income. That's what pve been asking for.

And once again there's a difference between casual player and end-game, those we Watch on YouTube such as King, Fengrush, Alcast, etc. when they pull-out their A-game they bring the house down but they do it at a certain cost and we know it. That's what this post is about keeping A-game an interesting option and if it means keeping it whitout underminding other part of the community... I believe it's Something everyone should be interesting in.

idk · September 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So your argument is the need for a carrot and you call that "bigger picture"?

I do PvP every day, because I freaking love it. No rewards, no gold, nothing. I couldnt sustain myself a single day just by doing PvP and not do some farming inbetween. I think you lost perspective, as I said in my first reply to your OP.

You didn't give me the incentive to do trials if this change goes live, do you really think it's healthy for the game to do this? Like I said, don't make it personal. PvP as a whole is no where near as demanding as an endgame trial is, to some yes it is, but overall PvP is much larger and broader content

I don't understand your argument lol

@Nifty2g's OP is an accurate assessment.

@Mojomonkeyman Additionally, PvP does provide rewards via AP that can be spent, rewards for the worthy (BoE) and weekly leaderboard rewards which I believe much of the weekly rewards are BoE, though probably not all.

Additionally, when a campaign ends their are tiered rewards for those who participated that was gold last time I checked was gold. Of the players alliance wins the campaign even more gold.

I don't think @Mojomonkeyman is not looking at this PvE issue fairly.

silvereyes · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Here is what will happen if this change goes live: Endgame guilds will have to resort to selling vMoL clears to supply their core teams with pots...I was never a fan of that idea, but it looks like a lot of people will have to resort to that.

Could you explain how this works practically? I don't really PvE, but I'm curious. If vet trials require such high DPS such as to necessitate expensive potions, and you are bringing along some dead weight customer who just wants the clear, how will you complete? And also, how is running a time-consuming, expensive trial a better way to raise money than just picking flowers for 100% profit?

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you are afraid you will have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game. Got it now?

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

It sounds like what you are saying is: it sucks for me so it should suck for you. How about being smart about it and saying it sucks for me, why not change the system so that's no longer the case.

Thats not true. I`m not saying the change is good or something I wish for. I`m saying I dont like OPs attitude to not have the empathy to realize that:

A good junk of "the" endgame community, which I consider myself to be part of just not in the PvE limited sense OP is suggesting, namely endgame PvPers who dont like PvE have accepted the fact that they need to farm to sustain for years without too much crying.

The sense of entitlement OP is carrying over struck me as really offensive since I wouldnt even think of demanding a developer to please exclusively my style of play with special attention nor would I feel good demanding special treatment and consideration of my ingame liquidity compared to people who like other parts of the game just because I can beat a scripted dummy a second faster than the next one.

This change will bring the time investment necessary to sustain high end pve and high end pvp in line. Seems ok for me, certainly not worth the uproar. I mean I`m still here farming my potions & stuff. You can handle it, too.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

silvereyes wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Here is what will happen if this change goes live: Endgame guilds will have to resort to selling vMoL clears to supply their core teams with pots...I was never a fan of that idea, but it looks like a lot of people will have to resort to that.

Could you explain how this works practically? I don't really PvE, but I'm curious. If vet trials require such high DPS such as to necessitate expensive potions, and you are bringing along some dead weight customer who just wants the clear, how will you complete? And also, how is running a time-consuming, expensive trial a better way to raise money than just picking flowers for 100% profit?

Well if you have a really good group you can carry someone through vMoL...we've done it free for guild it's before...they have to familiarize themselves with fight mechanics, but outside of that we just carry them. If a guild does one clear and it's rough it will take an hour and a half. That hour and a half will cost the customer let's say 800k. That 800k can then be applied to potions for the entire core team. 800k is a lot of money and can probably sustain a team for a long time. I would say 3-4 weeks. It's a lot more expensive to buy potions than to buy mats, so I would just spend that gold on mats and craft enough potions for the entire team.
I'm not saying that our guild will be doing this. But this is something endgame guilds may have to resort to.

Sallington · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you are afraid you will have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game. Got it now?

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

It sounds like what you are saying is: it sucks for me so it should suck for you. How about being smart about it and saying it sucks for me, why not change the system so that's no longer the case.

Thats not true. I`m not saying the change is good or something I wish for. I`m saying I dont like OPs attitude to not have the empathy to realize that:

A good junk of "the" endgame community, which I consider myself to be part of just not in the PvE limited sense OP is suggesting, namely endgame PvPers who dont like PvE have accepted the fact that they need to farm to sustain for years without too much crying.

The sense of entitlement OP is carrying over struck me as really offensive since I wouldnt even think of demanding a developer to please exclusively my style of play with special attention nor would I feel good demanding special treatment and consideration of my ingame liquidity compared to people who like other parts of the game just because I can beat a scripted dummy a second faster than the next one.

This change will bring the time investment necessary to sustain high end pve and high end pvp in line. Seems ok for me, certainly not worth the uproar. I mean I`m still here farming my potions & stuff. You can handle it, too.

Sense of entitlement? Demanding special treatment?

OP is simply asking for things to stay the way they are, because there's NOTHING WRONG with how it is now, in the live game.

ZOS has a track record of "fixing" things that are perfectly fine, and turning them into either nonsense or just a completely broken systems/mechanic.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you are afraid you will have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game. Got it now?

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

It sounds like what you are saying is: it sucks for me so it should suck for you. How about being smart about it and saying it sucks for me, why not change the system so that's no longer the case.

Thats not true. I`m not saying the change is good or something I wish for. I`m saying I dont like OPs attitude to not have the empathy to realize that:

A good junk of "the" endgame community, which I consider myself to be part of just not in the PvE limited sense OP is suggesting, namely endgame PvPers who dont like PvE have accepted the fact that they need to farm to sustain for years without too much crying.

The sense of entitlement OP is carrying over struck me as really offensive since I wouldnt even think of demanding a developer to please exclusively my style of play with special attention nor would I feel good demanding special treatment and consideration of my ingame liquidity compared to people who like other parts of the game just because I can beat a scripted dummy a second faster than the next one.

This change will bring the time investment necessary to sustain high end pve and high end pvp in line. Seems ok for me, certainly not worth the uproar. I mean I`m still here farming my potions & stuff. You can handle it, too.

The difference is they are infact taking something away. The op is not asking them to add something. He is asking them not to take something away. Like the PVP community would do if they took AP away.

So you are surprised they react negatively when the devs decide to take they way they make money away from them? And you say the OP has no Empathy.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

As someone who only enjoys PvP I feel OP is talking about first world problems. A very rich man failing to realize that others have never been in the advantageous position he is/was in.

Everytime I step into a dungeon I feel the strong urge to shut down the PC and do something else, I really don`t enjoy group PvE. So I have to grind tv stones, flowers, whatever (translation: stuff I really hate to do) approx. 1-2 hours per day just to be able to finance supplements and gear upgrades for what I enjoy to do (PvP). This is reality since the game started.

To create such an uproar just because you will be put a similar position I am in, after 2,5 years of eso`s existence, while still keeping the advantage of being able to acquire sets I never get to see, is kinda stunning.

If you look at my screenshot, it will show you how much gold I have, pretty impressive huh?

That`s not what I was saying. Nice try though. I said, you had the opportunity to finance what you like to do ingame without having to grind stuff you dont like to do.

Your complaint is that this is going to change and that you are afraid you will have to put in additional time investment to gather enough cash for supplements. That´s exactly the position I am in since years, just because I happen to like another part of the game. Got it now?

Your bank account is totally irrelevant to me or my message.

It sounds like what you are saying is: it sucks for me so it should suck for you. How about being smart about it and saying it sucks for me, why not change the system so that's no longer the case.

Thats not true. I`m not saying the change is good or something I wish for. I`m saying I dont like OPs attitude to not have the empathy to realize that:

A good junk of "the" endgame community, which I consider myself to be part of just not in the PvE limited sense OP is suggesting, namely endgame PvPers who dont like PvE have accepted the fact that they need to farm to sustain for years without too much crying.

The sense of entitlement OP is carrying over struck me as really offensive since I wouldnt even think of demanding a developer to please exclusively my style of play with special attention nor would I feel good demanding special treatment and consideration of my ingame liquidity compared to people who like other parts of the game just because I can beat a scripted dummy a second faster than the next one.

This change will bring the time investment necessary to sustain high end pve and high end pvp in line. Seems ok for me, certainly not worth the uproar. I mean I`m still here farming my potions & stuff. You can handle it, too.

As was stated in the previous posts you guys had a huge market from PVP sets like ravager, morag tong and others to provide you with resources for PvP. That all ended with the IC patch. Saying that you got used to farming, even though you had many money making opportunities is innacurate. Now after IC the situation was indeed dire. Why would you not also demand changes so that you don't have to farm flowers?

I'm not sure I see any entitlement in the OP's stance. He is asking for reasons other than EPEEN to run the endgame content for. I have all the endgame sets for 8 of my alts, what is the point that for me to rerun that content or play endgame at all for that matter if there is no reward except leaderboard EPEEN? It is a game impacting decision that offers ZERO benefit and detrimental lyrics affects the economy as well as player incentives.

PvP is interesting to you because you never know the opponent you will encounter and if the tactics they use are the same. PvE does not change. It is always the same fights, same opponent, same atrategy. That gets old really quick with no rewards to incentivise replayability.

Oh and as for "you can handle it too" I don't want to handle it and I won't be farming..I'll probably just find a way to make my money without it...

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

Sallington · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

So you can raid for your reasons, but other people's reasons make them spoiled.

Got it.

Mojomonkeyman · September 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

So you can raid for your reasons, but other people's reasons make them spoiled.

Got it.

I only solo or duo.... your raids dont matter to me.

DocFrost72 · September 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

It's a game, you should be able to only do what you like...

"It's a game, so please have material nodes spawn AP as well, I shouldn't be forced to get AP from pvp since I don't like pvp'ing"

"It's a game, so please have Dro-m'Athra motif and celestial motif drop from solo content. I don't like trials and I shouldn't be forced to do trials to get motifs"

"It's a game, so remove BoP from IC sets and Orsinium sets. I don't like doing IC dungeons and Wrothgar dailies, so don't force me to do it if I don't want to"

"It's a game, so remove BoP from Maelstrom weapons and Master weapons. I shouldn't have to do DSA and MA if I don't like it"

"It's a game, so have all content in the game drop all rewards. I should be forced to solo/pvp/pve/trial if I don't want to, but I still want access to everything while doing 2 % of the content"

etc etc etc

Anyway, I believe I made my point clear in the first post in this thread, the aggression and somewhat immature reponses that followed from you three so-called 'hardcore top trial raiders' was a little funny, but this is quickly spiralling towards the inconstructive, so I'm out. Enjoy your raiding.

1. you only need AP to buy siege-weapons and akaviri-motif and to get the sets from rewards of the worthy. You can sell your materials and then buy all of this. --> no problem
2. You can do solo-content, sell the stuff from solo-content and buy the motifs --> no problem
3. you can buy the triphies and open all the vaults in the nex patch to get those sets --> won't be a problem
4. people are constantly asking for a better system especially regarding those maelstromeweapons (token system, master weapons through pvp-rewards...) --> needs to be solved
5. as long as you get something in this 2% which can be exchanged for other things that sounds great isn't it?

the game isn't perfect in it's current state, but it's ok (or even great) for endgame-raiding atm. Why do they change something which is good? People get sets from trials without doing them and raider can get some money to buy potions. Those who sell potions get money from the raiders and can (if they need) buy equipment from raiders. What's the problem with this?

For me, the issue lies in the "need" for potions. Again, sympathetic and you guys should all be able to raid to your heart's content, but I don't see why content that requires you to chug expensive pots is a good idea.

Change alchemy, change the need for pots, but ZoS typically doesn't go back on things. It may help to come.up with alternatives for a world.with BoP. Is BoP a good idea? No, not at all, but I'm not sure any number of player requests will change the course we're on.

The title states "from an end game perspective" I am obviously talking about the 1%, well the whole competitive end game, the progression crowed. This might not make a lot of sense to you, but believe me if you were involved you'd understand, which is why I am asking the community to be sympathetic. I know the developers lately have been very invovled with the endgame crowed, possibly seeking insight to what its like to raid in ESO, I'm unsure. But I know for a fact they are a lot more involved

I don't have to be in endgame to try and explain that if you want potions that are expensive by nature, you need to earn the gold somehow. ZOS just went BOP, which indicates they are saying they don't want it to be through trials. My suggestion is to work.an angle that WILL help you guys, rather than one that seems to be rapidly closing.

Sallington · September 2016

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

So you can raid for your reasons, but other people's reasons make them spoiled.

Got it.

I only solo or duo.... your raids dont matter to me.

Thanks for further proving my point I guess?

Shadesofkin · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Here is what will happen if this change goes live: Endgame guilds will have to resort to selling vMoL clears to supply their core teams with pots...I was never a fan of that idea, but it looks like a lot of people will have to resort to that.

This will happen.

Already even now I've been propositioned to help clear Veteran Trials that players are intimidated by. I'm not even part of the most hardcore groups, I'm just relatively hardcore.

Several statements have been made of "Just use trash pots it can be done"

Yes, it can be done.

I can also walk without toes, I don't recommend it.

The reality of the situation is, clearing trials on trash pots or on lesser pots is possible but it's what the casual players do who aren't invested in the trial runs. They don't care about the score and they don't care about how quickly the get their gear. People saying "adjust your thinking or doing or playing" are basically saying "Be a Casual, because...reasons"

I absolutely do trials for fun too btw, I'm currently working on beating my all time best Maelstrom Score and Time. I've got it down to 422000 1:28 and I'm doing that solely for my benefit, but guess what...the gear I get from running trials is financing that.

Artists who create for the sake of creating art all the time are called hobbyists, if they don't have patronage they're just part time hobbyists. A Raider who just runs for the sake of running and doesn't worry about the cost is either being carried or hes a casual (more often than not, both).

Sure these are gross generalizations, but they've got more in common with the bad recommendations of players who are implying we don't have a legitimate complaint with having our source of income removed sans appropriate compensation.

Motifs aren't enough. Either we need a regular droppable reward to compensate the cost or the in trial vendor needs to buy our trial gear drops for a heck of a lot more than the overland vendors are doing.

Either that or they start making some of those sets BOE.

It's really not that hard to figure all this out from (as others have stated) "The End Gamers Perspective"