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AOE tuant should be added to...
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.
I won't disagree with that. There is a mindset out there that perpetuates this kind of thinking. It's a harmful mindset though, and has succeeded in dumbing down the combat in many other MMORPGs to boring proportions. And I would hate to see that happen on this game.
Yeah I oft times find myself wanting something more from ESO as well, but that's comparing it to games like Final Fantasy or Fiesta Online or other various and more lighthearted and fantastical MMOs. Not saying I want ESO to be like them or anything, it's just moments where I miss that sort of stuff and can't have it lol
If you ask me I think it's high time ESO got a full group raid dungeon, and I mean a full 24-man group!
Assuming you are speaking about Final Fantasy 14 - that would be good example as to why AoE tanking ends up being a flawed design decision. Because the combat becomes stale and repetitive as a result with very little strategy or reactive game play. A single player runs in - masses the enemies - two players burn them down and the other player spams heals. Rinse and repeat. It starts to feel more like a chore than an animated battle.
When I do dungeons on ESO (I play a healer btw) they feel a lot less scripted. I am often under attack and have to defend myself. It's more fun that way and feels more like an actual battle.
Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 11:39PM2 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.
I won't disagree with that. There is a mindset out there that perpetuates this kind of thinking. It's a harmful mindset though, and has succeeded in dumbing down the combat in many other MMORPGs to boring proportions. And I would hate to see that happen on this game.
Yeah I oft times find myself wanting something more from ESO as well, but that's comparing it to games like Final Fantasy or Fiesta Online or other various and more lighthearted and fantastical MMOs. Not saying I want ESO to be like them or anything, it's just moments where I miss that sort of stuff and can't have it lol
If you ask me I think it's high time ESO got a full group raid dungeon, and I mean a full 24-man group!
Assuming you are speaking about Final Fantasy 14 - that would be good example as to why AoE tanking ends up being a flawed design decision. Because the combat becomes stale and repetitive as a result with very little strategy or reactive game play. A single player runs in - masses the enemies - two players burn them down and the other player spams heals. Rinse and repeat. It starts to feel more like a chore than an animated battle.
The series in general actually. 14 is honestly disappointing to me. Very little freedom to make your own build as you see fit. FF Explorers did give you much of that freedom, but it's no MMO.
P.S. FFs I've played are 1 on NES, 1 on PS1, 2 on NES, 2 on PS1, 3 on NES, 3 on DS, 4 on SNES, 5 on SNES, 5 on GBA, 6 on SNES, 7 on PS1, 8, 9, 10 on PS2, Mystic Quest, Tactics on PS1, Explorers, and Bravely Default.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 11:40PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.
I won't disagree with that. There is a mindset out there that perpetuates this kind of thinking. It's a harmful mindset though, and has succeeded in dumbing down the combat in many other MMORPGs to boring proportions. And I would hate to see that happen on this game.
Yeah I oft times find myself wanting something more from ESO as well, but that's comparing it to games like Final Fantasy or Fiesta Online or other various and more lighthearted and fantastical MMOs. Not saying I want ESO to be like them or anything, it's just moments where I miss that sort of stuff and can't have it lol
If you ask me I think it's high time ESO got a full group raid dungeon, and I mean a full 24-man group!
Assuming you are speaking about Final Fantasy 14 - that would be good example as to why AoE tanking ends up being a flawed design decision. Because the combat becomes stale and repetitive as a result with very little strategy or reactive game play. A single player runs in - masses the enemies - two players burn them down and the other player spams heals. Rinse and repeat. It starts to feel more like a chore than an animated battle.
The series in general actually. 14 is honestly disappointing to me. Very little freedom to make your own build as you see fit. FF Explorers did give you much of that freedom, but it's no MMO.
Final Fantasy 11 had a diverse and strategic battle system. It was very hard core though (at least in it's inception) and that prevented many players from being able to enjoy it.
I wish Final Fantasy 14 had followed more in its predecessor's footsteps but it instead went the copy/paste WoW route.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.
I won't disagree with that. There is a mindset out there that perpetuates this kind of thinking. It's a harmful mindset though, and has succeeded in dumbing down the combat in many other MMORPGs to boring proportions. And I would hate to see that happen on this game.
Yeah I oft times find myself wanting something more from ESO as well, but that's comparing it to games like Final Fantasy or Fiesta Online or other various and more lighthearted and fantastical MMOs. Not saying I want ESO to be like them or anything, it's just moments where I miss that sort of stuff and can't have it lol
If you ask me I think it's high time ESO got a full group raid dungeon, and I mean a full 24-man group!
Assuming you are speaking about Final Fantasy 14 - that would be good example as to why AoE tanking ends up being a flawed design decision. Because the combat becomes stale and repetitive as a result with very little strategy or reactive game play. A single player runs in - masses the enemies - two players burn them down and the other player spams heals. Rinse and repeat. It starts to feel more like a chore than an animated battle.
The series in general actually. 14 is honestly disappointing to me. Very little freedom to make your own build as you see fit. FF Explorers did give you much of that freedom, but it's no MMO.
Final Fantasy 11 had a diverse and strategic battle system. It was very hard core though (at least in it's inception) and that prevented many players from being able to enjoy it.
I wish Final Fantasy 14 had followed more in its predecessor's footsteps but it instead went the copy/paste WoW route.
Yeah also 11 isn't as open anymore to new players... Just gaming's way of "out with the old, in with the new"...Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
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Just throwing my vote in with the no crowd. No need to repeat the reasons that others have already stated.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Yeah, that explains nothing except your own stance on it, which is quite clear by everyone that has said so. I mean really, I have yet to hear a good reason why AoE Taunts should not be in this game.
"I don't want it"
"It's easy mode"
"It's not needed"
That's pretty much all I'm hearing, and it just isn't good enough. In fact, those same reasons can apply to literally EVERYTHING in or not in this game. Good arguments, they don't make.
But since you insist on a degree of verbosity, have you even tanked serious endgame content in this game? If you have, then I doubt this would be such a controversial topic for you. You're not supposed to hold aggro on everything. And a lot of enemies will deal damage indiscriminately, regardless of aggro. This is the intended design. In this game, the DPS are supposed to have a degree of self-responsibility--everyone has a substantial arsenal of defenses: blocks, dodges, self-heals, etc. And healers have to heal everyone, not just the tank. The tank's job isn't to taunt everything. Prioritization of taunt is important. Their job is to provide support, through positioning, debuffing, etc.
In short, adding an AoE taunt means changing the entire dynamic of the game. It doesn't fit with a game where everyone has a high degree of self-sufficiency. It simply does not belong.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
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Aoe taunt isnt needed. You dont have to taunt everything. Learn to taunt threats and ignore weak mobsold_mufasa wrote: »They should added a AOE tuant to the one hand and shield ultimate... it would of been so perfect... Tuants all mobs with in x meters while blocking all attacks... its fills a gap that's been missing as well fits the ultimate's ability perfectly and its not spam able like a normal tuant....
Do you think it should have a AOE tuant effected added to it?0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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Just throwing my vote in with the no crowd. No need to repeat the reasons that others have already stated.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Yeah, that explains nothing except your own stance on it, which is quite clear by everyone that has said so. I mean really, I have yet to hear a good reason why AoE Taunts should not be in this game.
"I don't want it"
"It's easy mode"
"It's not needed"
That's pretty much all I'm hearing, and it just isn't good enough. In fact, those same reasons can apply to literally EVERYTHING in or not in this game. Good arguments, they don't make.
But since you insist on a degree of verbosity, have you even tanked serious endgame content in this game? If you have, then I doubt this would be such a controversial topic for you. You're not supposed to hold aggro on everything. And a lot of enemies will deal damage indiscriminately, regardless of aggro. This is the intended design. In this game, the DPS are supposed to have a degree of self-responsibility--everyone has a substantial arsenal of defenses: blocks, dodges, self-heals, etc. And healers have to heal everyone, not just the tank. The tank's job isn't to taunt everything. Prioritization of taunt is important. Their job is to provide support, through positioning, debuffing, etc.
In short, adding an AoE taunt means changing the entire dynamic of the game. It doesn't fit with a game where everyone has a high degree of self-sufficiency. It simply does not belong.
Of course you're not SUPPOSED to, but the more aggro you take the less pressure on your allies so they can do what they're supposed to. Taunting is mitigating aggro, which is something more guaranteed to work than trying other means, like outright damage.
Self-sufficiency in what way? If the tank doesn't keep the aggro off the Damagers and Healer they just die under normal circumstances. Even the meta here disapproves of being self-sufficient.notimetocare wrote: »
Aoe taunt isnt needed. You dont have to taunt everything. Learn to taunt threats and ignore weak mobsold_mufasa wrote: »They should added a AOE tuant to the one hand and shield ultimate... it would of been so perfect... Tuants all mobs with in x meters while blocking all attacks... its fills a gap that's been missing as well fits the ultimate's ability perfectly and its not spam able like a normal tuant....
Do you think it should have a AOE tuant effected added to it?
Yeah and those weak mobs add up over time, becoming a real threat.notimetocare wrote: »Would also point put that no good tank would waste ult for a taunt.
I would use an Ultimate AoE Taunt, considering it is literally the only way we'd get it at this point. My tank loses nothing by doing so anyway.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 7, 2016 2:16AMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why do people think that they must taunt everything ? There are mobs that you should taunt of course but taunting all of them is only a waste of your resources . If your DDs can't take care of some mobs , it is because their AOE DPS is low . If your healer can't heal through some damage that DDs are getting from trash , I don't even know what kind of healer is that .
After 2 years of ESO , now I understand why so many people are so tense about resource management of tanks . Because you are taunting everything . That is why . Just play smart .
Just put a skill that consumes stamina based on the enemies you taunt with it . Make every taunt cost as much stamina as Puncture costs . So , it goes like this . Puncture uses 1k stamina . This skill will consume 10k Stamina if you taunt 10 mobs . Here you go . You can have your AOE taunt and we can spot a bad tank easier . Everyone is happy .2 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why do people think that they must taunt everything ? There are mobs that you should taunt of course but taunting all of them is only a waste of your resources . If your DDs can't take care of some mobs , it is because their AOE DPS is low . If your healer can't heal through some damage that DDs are getting from trash , I don't even know what kind of healer is that .
After 2 years of ESO , now I understand why so many people are so tense about resource management of tanks . Because you are taunting everything . That is why . Just play smart .
Just put a skill that consumes stamina based on the enemies you taunt with it . Make every taunt cost as much stamina as Puncture costs . So , it goes like this . Puncture uses 1k stamina . This skill will consume 10k Stamina if you taunt 10 mobs . Here you go . You can have your AOE taunt and we can spot a bad tank easier . Everyone is happy .
The reason we taunt enemies so much is because as tanks it's the only way to divert aggro. The fact it drains resources so is actually the entire reason we want an AoE Taunt.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
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Personal responsibility. vAA final boss or vMoL final boss, for example, there will be incoming damage that cannot be diverted with taunt, because it goes out indiscriminately. It's a test of the DPS's raid awareness.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Self-sufficiency in what way?
You lose Aggressive War Horn. Which is far, far from being "nothing".UltimaJoe777 wrote: »My tank loses nothing by doing so anyway.
Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information1 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Why do people think that they must taunt everything ? There are mobs that you should taunt of course but taunting all of them is only a waste of your resources . If your DDs can't take care of some mobs , it is because their AOE DPS is low . If your healer can't heal through some damage that DDs are getting from trash , I don't even know what kind of healer is that .
After 2 years of ESO , now I understand why so many people are so tense about resource management of tanks . Because you are taunting everything . That is why . Just play smart .
Just put a skill that consumes stamina based on the enemies you taunt with it . Make every taunt cost as much stamina as Puncture costs . So , it goes like this . Puncture uses 1k stamina . This skill will consume 10k Stamina if you taunt 10 mobs . Here you go . You can have your AOE taunt and we can spot a bad tank easier . Everyone is happy .
The reason we taunt enemies so much is because as tanks it's the only way to divert aggro. The fact it drains resources so is actually the entire reason we want an AoE Taunt.
So , you are saying that you have to take aggro because there are no other ways to stop mobs from attacking your teammates . Did I understand correctly ?0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
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Personal responsibility. vAA final boss or vMoL final boss, for example, there will be incoming damage that cannot be diverted with taunt, because it goes out indiscriminately. It's a test of the DPS's raid awareness.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Self-sufficiency in what way?
You lose Aggressive War Horn. Which is far, far from being "nothing".UltimaJoe777 wrote: »My tank loses nothing by doing so anyway.
Well I know I would cover myself, but some DPS builds try not to be so self-sufficient out of fear of losing out on DPS, and thus rely on healers.
My tank doesn't even run War Horn anyway.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Why do people think that they must taunt everything ? There are mobs that you should taunt of course but taunting all of them is only a waste of your resources . If your DDs can't take care of some mobs , it is because their AOE DPS is low . If your healer can't heal through some damage that DDs are getting from trash , I don't even know what kind of healer is that .
After 2 years of ESO , now I understand why so many people are so tense about resource management of tanks . Because you are taunting everything . That is why . Just play smart .
Just put a skill that consumes stamina based on the enemies you taunt with it . Make every taunt cost as much stamina as Puncture costs . So , it goes like this . Puncture uses 1k stamina . This skill will consume 10k Stamina if you taunt 10 mobs . Here you go . You can have your AOE taunt and we can spot a bad tank easier . Everyone is happy .
The reason we taunt enemies so much is because as tanks it's the only way to divert aggro. The fact it drains resources so is actually the entire reason we want an AoE Taunt.
So , you are saying that you have to take aggro because there are no other ways to stop mobs from attacking your teammates . Did I understand correctly ?
The other ways depend on both the mobs and your own build. Diverting aggro is naturally the best way as they no longer even TRY to attack your teammates, but of course CC can work too, to a degree.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
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Then they're a bad DPS. A good DPS does good numbers while also having good raid awareness and survivability. You don't need vMA-style solo survivability, but there is a reasonable amount that is needed, and much of that is in the form of skill and awareness, not gear or stats.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Well I know I would cover myself, but some DPS builds try not to be so self-sufficient out of fear of losing out on DPS, and thus rely on healers.
You really should for endgame content.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »My tank doesn't even run War Horn anyway.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
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- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
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Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@UltimaJoe777
So , you don't run Warhorn . Ok , that explains everything . You just want something that will ease your pain with taunting which is not necessary at all because damage from trash will never kill your teammates unless they are running around naked . Well , I have some good news for you ! 1h/s Ultimate will make your 1h/s skills free for 7 seconds ! This way , you can taunt everything for free ! Also , it costs only 100 Ultimate ! Unless you just want an AOE taunt because it is easier not having to aim . Ok , we can close this thread now I guess ?2 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@UltimaJoe777
So , you don't run Warhorn . Ok , that explains everything . You just want something that will ease your pain with taunting which is not necessary at all because damage from trash will never kill your teammates unless they are running around naked . Well , I have some good news for you ! 1h/s Ultimate will make your 1h/s skills free for 7 seconds ! This way , you can taunt everything for free ! Also , it costs only 100 Ultimate ! Unless you just want an AOE taunt because it is easier not having to aim . Ok , we can close this thread now I guess ?
1. What I run or don't run has nothing to do with me wanting an AoE Taunt.
2. I am well aware of the new Ultimate coming. Whether I run it or not I have yet to decide.
3. Sure, close it if you want, but that will never change the fact AoE Taunts are wanted, no matter how many people disapprove or what Zenimax says they will or will not do (after all, they've already proven what they say they won't do is never permanent).Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It does. Because it means you view tanking very differently than most endgame tanks, and you have a fundamentally different view of what the tank's job should be and how it fits into the combat dynamic. That view is why you want an AoE taunt and why you don't run War Horn.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »What I run or don't run has nothing to do with me wanting an AoE Taunt.
By you and a few others, you mean. Most tanks in this game, particularly endgame tanks, neither need nor want an AoE taunt. And we fully support ZOS's stance that there shouldn't be one.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »but that will never change the fact AoE Taunts are wantedEdited by code65536 on September 7, 2016 3:07AMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
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- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
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Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@UltimaJoe777
1- Actually , it does . As far as I understand you are ok with using your Ultimate for AOE taunting which means you don't have any idea how important Warhorn is . If you knew , you would use it over pretty much everything .
2- If you really need to taunt everything , it is a better option than an AOE Taunt since it makes your blocks free as well as your taunts .
3- As I said before , I would not mind if ZOS implement an AOE Taunt . It would be pretty important while observing a tank to understand how good he/she is .2 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I don't know if a aoe taunt is needed but they do need to bring skill and knowledge back to tanking. There is very little pulling techniques in eso ,LOS no skills the require a possum pull, pet pull, or even body pull. The mechanics are very shallow. They also need to do something about the lack of utility. They could do so much more with mecahnics. some of the abilites are there Fights were Boss healers are invulnerable until boss is dead so its the job of classes to actually use those fifteen second lock downs that know one ever uses but a few pvp builds. As a person who tanked in much richer mechanics like Everquest 2 that supported multiple utility classes and a greater emphasis on heals (not speaking about vet trials in that reguard). The dynamics of combat were much more fun in games that have true support CC and utility . I did VWGT last week with a DPS that used nothing but vigor on meUltimaJoe777 wrote: »You know, I see a lot of "no"s for this topic but no reasons why not. What do people have against AoE Taunting?
I understand that u might need some explanation after i said
NO. Just NO!
Here it is:
I tanked every single veteran dungeon and trial in this game, except last boss in vMOL and i think that an AOE taunt is not needed, it is very manageable without it , if u cant its a LTP issue. Sure u might chose the wrong priority sometimes, resulting in the death of a DD in your group, but at least you try to sort out the melee , high damage mobs first and struggle to keep everyone safe, that is adding to the fun, the occasional death of a dd or healer also.
The current tanking style allows tanks to show some skills and throw away boredom .
With an AOE taunt the tank should what? throw an AoE taunt bomb , CC after and keep blocking? By the same measure then the healers should have an all Heal abillity, pres X to heal everyone for 20k health/ sec for 20 seconds
TY
thats sad.
0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »NoMoreChillies wrote: »AOE taunt would remove any player skill from Tanks.
You barely need skill in this game to tank to begin with.
Why make it even easier then. An AoE taunt would make it completely lazy. Absolutely not justification for an AoE taunt in this game other than pure laziness.
There is also absolutely zero reason a tank needs to taunt everything to begin with unless they are running with players with poor skill and have no interested in seeing them improve.
Just say no to what is not needed. Just say no to an AoE tauntEdited by idk on September 7, 2016 5:24AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
Just throwing my vote in with the no crowd. No need to repeat the reasons that others have already stated.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Yeah, that explains nothing except your own stance on it, which is quite clear by everyone that has said so. I mean really, I have yet to hear a good reason why AoE Taunts should not be in this game.
"I don't want it"
"It's easy mode"
"It's not needed"
That's pretty much all I'm hearing, and it just isn't good enough. In fact, those same reasons can apply to literally EVERYTHING in or not in this game. Good arguments, they don't make.
But since you insist on a degree of verbosity, have you even tanked serious endgame content in this game? If you have, then I doubt this would be such a controversial topic for you. You're not supposed to hold aggro on everything. And a lot of enemies will deal damage indiscriminately, regardless of aggro. This is the intended design. In this game, the DPS are supposed to have a degree of self-responsibility--everyone has a substantial arsenal of defenses: blocks, dodges, self-heals, etc. And healers have to heal everyone, not just the tank. The tank's job isn't to taunt everything. Prioritization of taunt is important. Their job is to provide support, through positioning, debuffing, etc.
In short, adding an AoE taunt means changing the entire dynamic of the game. It doesn't fit with a game where everyone has a high degree of self-sufficiency. It simply does not belong.
Of course you're not SUPPOSED to, but the more aggro you take the less pressure on your allies so they can do what they're supposed to. Taunting is mitigating aggro, which is something more guaranteed to work than trying other means, like outright damage.
Self-sufficiency in what way? If the tank doesn't keep the aggro off the Damagers and Healer they just die under normal circumstances. Even the meta here disapproves of being self-sufficient.
If you agree that one is not supposed to have aggro on everything then why do you agrue that an AoE taunt should be added for unnecessary reasons?
BTW, pointless convo since the devs have specifically said the game is designed to agro will go to different players and do not intend tanks to taunt everything.
In reality, the design is for SMART tanking. Smart tanking the tank chooses the more important targets to tank and lets the group handle the rest. An AoE taunt is not for smart tanking. It is for game like Final Fantasy.0 -
Humatiel✭✭✭✭I can understand why ZoS wouldn't want this, and to some degree I can see there point. That being said, as stated before, its in virtually every mmo and I can think of no reason it shouldn't be an option in this one.
The reason is they don't want the tank picking up all of the adds. They want tanks to concentrate on the more serious threats that way the combat is more dynamic. It also gives more relevance to defensive/CC abilities on other jobs.
It seems to work pretty well. I don't see any good reason to change it just so it can become more like other games.
take this at face value when I say I understand the point of an aoe taunt is to taunt aoe. Stating it to attempt to emphasize a point isn't helpful.
OT: I said I saw both sides, but other games do this (and its liked in other games) because the vast majority of old school tanks prefer the whole "tanky as possible" type of mentality from just this style.VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
700+ CP
GM of Luxury Raids0 -
alpehans✭✭AoE taunt ultimate, hmmm , probably to much.
I would rather see improvements to existing tank abilities. I have no problem with single target taunting excepts when :
- There is lots of ranged mobs, and ofc they ALL chain snare, root, stun etc ....... so annoying.
- Mobs are stacked and you need to target a specific one.
Some of the new Tank sets might help with this, but i wouldn't mind adding a very small aoe taunt to existing ones ( 1 meter or so ) just so I don't have to target with pin point precision in the heat of battle.
Improve the undaunted ranged taunt, costs a lot more and dont apply breach
And some cc reduction/immunity ..... why can mobs do unending chain cc ? 1 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Aoe taunting aside, I would never user an Ult for it. I use warhorn on my Dk (trial tank) and Veil of blades on my sap tank (dungeon tank). Using a taunt instead of these would be a waste. Warhorn adds a tonne of dps if people drop ults in that window. I don't run it on my sap tank as it's only for dungeons and I add a lot of dps anyway.
I can get aggro on things pretty efficiently anyway if dps let me pull first. Path and sap on my saptank get's most aggro. Sometimes I'll even shooting star. Popping volatile armor in a group of adds then talons does it on my Dk.
Sometimes you don't want to aggro everything. Sometimes you need to move adds around. They could get in the way of high priority targets, bring aoes that hurt dps or some even have healing aoes that heal other NPCs.
Yeh current method works absolutely fine. If this ultimate excited I wouldn't ever think of using it.1 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Final Fantasy 11 had a diverse and strategic battle system. It was very hard core though (at least in it's inception) and that prevented many players from being able to enjoy it.
I wish Final Fantasy 14 had followed more in its predecessor's footsteps but it instead went the copy/paste WoW route.
FFXI was so amazing and dynamic, I really miss skill-chaining. 14 was such a let down in comparison.0 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »You know, I see a lot of "no"s for this topic but no reasons why not. What do people have against AoE Taunting?
I have a couple of reasons. The first of which is that holding aggro is relatively easy in this game compared to other MMOs I have played. There are fewer enemies in most circumstances, and in those circumstances where there are more enemies by comparison, there are fewer mechanics to deal with. Resources are not scarce enough to merit an AoE taunt; that level of efficiency is simply unnecessary for any content in this game. Aggro itself is a very simple system - it's basically an on/off switch; either the enemy is attacking you, or it's not. An on/off switch for a whole group simultaneously is, for lack of a better term, "easymode."
Additionally, a good tank knows how to manipulate mobs. I believe it is reasonable to state that the primary function of an AoE taunt would be most beneficial for the initial pull of any given group of enemies. But realistically, any AoE ability serves as an initial taunt. A couple of examples would include talons, caltrops, sap essence, etc. I rarely start an encounter without the vast majority of adds on me, and all I do on an initial pull is sap essence. Quick reflexes and knowledge of priorities takes over at this point; in other words, I know exactly which enemies need to be forcefully taunted after the initial pull.
An AoE "force" taunt would make tanking too simplistic and less enjoyable. Yes, it would be easier on resources (and as I suggested before, this is unnecessary), but this would alleviate a portion of the challenge. It would also make kill priorities significantly less important or less detrimental to the group if they are ignored. A means to grab initial aggro on a group of enemies already exists by way of straight AoE damage. So really, there's no point to it other than making tanking easier, which if you ask me (and every tank I know), would make tanking less meaningful.
The only time that something which is initially damaged by a tank's AoE goes to a dps or healer instead is when that player (the dps or healer in question) hits that enemy preemptively, or in some cases, large amounts of burst healing (which is also unnecessary at the start of a pull). That's part of the beauty of being a tank though - when your dps jumps on a target and it turns to them, taunt it. That's a fundamental aspect of tanking, and an AoE taunt would remove that fundamental aspect outright, leaving tanking as a concept rather simplistic, resulting in a diminished value of a primary group function.Edited by Autolycus on September 12, 2016 7:01PM2 -
old_mufasa✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »
Aoe taunt isnt needed. You dont have to taunt everything. Learn to taunt threats and ignore weak mobsold_mufasa wrote: »They should added a AOE tuant to the one hand and shield ultimate... it would of been so perfect... Tuants all mobs with in x meters while blocking all attacks... its fills a gap that's been missing as well fits the ultimate's ability perfectly and its not spam able like a normal tuant....
Do you think it should have a AOE tuant effected added to it?
This is such a stupid argument....
With your logic.. AOE dps isn't needed... because you can single target kill targets....
May as well say all AOE is not needed... right because you can do the same thing single target...
It's not about needed, its not about easy mode.. its about giving more options for players to style there tanks.. instead of cookie cutter single target tanking....
It allows options for fight mechanics as well to be added...
Seems more we have a bunch of people that are scared of any sort of change... then looking at it objectively0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭old_mufasa wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »
Aoe taunt isnt needed. You dont have to taunt everything. Learn to taunt threats and ignore weak mobsold_mufasa wrote: »They should added a AOE tuant to the one hand and shield ultimate... it would of been so perfect... Tuants all mobs with in x meters while blocking all attacks... its fills a gap that's been missing as well fits the ultimate's ability perfectly and its not spam able like a normal tuant....
Do you think it should have a AOE tuant effected added to it?
This is such a stupid argument....
With your logic.. AOE dps isn't needed... because you can single target kill targets....
May as well say all AOE is not needed... right because you can do the same thing single target...
It's not about needed, its not about easy mode.. its about giving more options for players to style there tanks.. instead of cookie cutter single target tanking....
It allows options for fight mechanics as well to be added...
Seems more we have a bunch of people that are scared of any sort of change... then looking at it objectively
The current balance and style of combat in ESO does not support the existence of an AoE taunt. If you want an AoE taunt added, great, then "WTB entirely new combat style and balance". An AoE taunt can make sense--it just requires so many other changes to how combat works in ESO for it to make sense. This is not something that you can just plop in. This is something that you can add in if you're also redesigning everything else at the same time.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
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Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
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- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
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- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
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- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
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notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
Just throwing my vote in with the no crowd. No need to repeat the reasons that others have already stated.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Yeah, that explains nothing except your own stance on it, which is quite clear by everyone that has said so. I mean really, I have yet to hear a good reason why AoE Taunts should not be in this game.
"I don't want it"
"It's easy mode"
"It's not needed"
That's pretty much all I'm hearing, and it just isn't good enough. In fact, those same reasons can apply to literally EVERYTHING in or not in this game. Good arguments, they don't make.
But since you insist on a degree of verbosity, have you even tanked serious endgame content in this game? If you have, then I doubt this would be such a controversial topic for you. You're not supposed to hold aggro on everything. And a lot of enemies will deal damage indiscriminately, regardless of aggro. This is the intended design. In this game, the DPS are supposed to have a degree of self-responsibility--everyone has a substantial arsenal of defenses: blocks, dodges, self-heals, etc. And healers have to heal everyone, not just the tank. The tank's job isn't to taunt everything. Prioritization of taunt is important. Their job is to provide support, through positioning, debuffing, etc.
In short, adding an AoE taunt means changing the entire dynamic of the game. It doesn't fit with a game where everyone has a high degree of self-sufficiency. It simply does not belong.
Of course you're not SUPPOSED to, but the more aggro you take the less pressure on your allies so they can do what they're supposed to. Taunting is mitigating aggro, which is something more guaranteed to work than trying other means, like outright damage.
Self-sufficiency in what way? If the tank doesn't keep the aggro off the Damagers and Healer they just die under normal circumstances. Even the meta here disapproves of being self-sufficient.notimetocare wrote: »
Aoe taunt isnt needed. You dont have to taunt everything. Learn to taunt threats and ignore weak mobsold_mufasa wrote: »They should added a AOE tuant to the one hand and shield ultimate... it would of been so perfect... Tuants all mobs with in x meters while blocking all attacks... its fills a gap that's been missing as well fits the ultimate's ability perfectly and its not spam able like a normal tuant....
Do you think it should have a AOE tuant effected added to it?
Yeah and those weak mobs add up over time, becoming a real threat.notimetocare wrote: »Would also point put that no good tank would waste ult for a taunt.
I would use an Ultimate AoE Taunt, considering it is literally the only way we'd get it at this point. My tank loses nothing by doing so anyway.
You lose norhing, but your group loses tons of damage for a lack of warhorn. However I did specify good tanks.
Yes the small mobs do it up but if they're not dying you have more problems than the fact that they're killing DPS.1