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AOE tuant should be added to...
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AzraelKrieg wrote: »Nope.
Yes. Not really needed. Only one fight in the entire game would an AoE taunt really be nice but it woulld not last long enough to be really worthwhile.
So, still no.1 -
NoMoreChillies✭✭✭✭✭
✭AOE taunt would remove any player skill from Tanks.Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.2 -
old_mufasa✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »AzraelKrieg wrote: »Nope.
Yes. Not really needed. Only one fight in the entire game would an AoE taunt really be nice but it woulld not last long enough to be really worthwhile.
So, still no.
Yep.. so I guess AOE damage is not really needed.. after all you can kill anything with single target.. so we should remove all AOE damage as its not really NEEDED...
Oh same for heals.. all heals should be single target, after all you can heal anyone with single target heal.. so AOE heals are not NEEDED...
1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
Be careful of slippery slope that because other games have it, that it should work here. There are various ways that this can be implemented but it's the design that the devs decided to go for. Preach to them.
It's really just Tanking 101. Tanks keep the danger off their allies and the more efficient the better.
This game isn't played on rails like other games. In most situations tank doesn't need to tank everything, onky the big bad stuff. DPS have the responsibility to move or block when needed.
I cannot think of a trash pull in trials, even in vet trials where everything needs to be tanked.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoMoreChillies wrote: »AOE taunt would remove any player skill from Tanks.
You barely need skill in this game to tank to begin with.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
Be careful of slippery slope that because other games have it, that it should work here. There are various ways that this can be implemented but it's the design that the devs decided to go for. Preach to them.
It's really just Tanking 101. Tanks keep the danger off their allies and the more efficient the better.
This game isn't played on rails like other games. In most situations tank doesn't need to tank everything, onky the big bad stuff. DPS have the responsibility to move or block when needed.
I cannot think of a trash pull in trials, even in vet trials where everything needs to be tanked.
You're right, ESO is different. In the sense that when roles work together content is easy enough already lol so at this point AoE Taunts cannot possibly do any harm.
I can think of 1 fight: vCoA vs that Daedroth. Kill the adds or be killed. There's also that Zombie in vICP.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 9:21PM1 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The mistake here is that people compare ESO to games that don't work in a similar way..5 -
Humatiel✭✭✭✭I can understand why ZoS wouldn't want this, and to some degree I can see there point. That being said, as stated before, its in virtually every mmo and I can think of no reason it shouldn't be an option in this one.VMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
700+ CP
GM of Luxury Raids0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can understand why ZoS wouldn't want this, and to some degree I can see there point. That being said, as stated before, its in virtually every mmo and I can think of no reason it shouldn't be an option in this one.
The reason is they don't want the tank picking up all of the adds. They want tanks to concentrate on the more serious threats that way the combat is more dynamic. It also gives more relevance to defensive/CC abilities on other jobs.
It seems to work pretty well. I don't see any good reason to change it just so it can become more like other games.Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 9:31PM1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some of the more fun content for a tank is the few fights where the tank keeps dragging the mob away from the boss so the rest of the group can whomp him. The final boss in Banished Cells is a good example of this especially if your DPS isn't really quick on the boss.
An AoE taunt would take all the fun out of that fight. There are a few other fights like that and my opinion is we need more like that where the tank doesn't just grab the boss.
That aside there are plenty of ways for a tank to control mobs. Tank goes in first range taunts a few evil doers to get the largest number coming in at him. Toss a talons down on them to keep them there then grab a few ranged evil doers with chains. And yeah I know not every tank has chains, but hey every healer doesn't have breath of life or repentence and they find another way to get the job done.
Again just opinion here but I think an AoE taunt would make some of the interesting fights boring.
And I know taunts are not the only way for a tank to crowd control and control is really what it is about.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As someone who does tank...
No, I don't want an AoE taunt, and there shouldn't be an AoE taunt in this game.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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subtlezeroub17_ESO✭✭✭✭Just a quick additional note for the above: Taunt and threat management can introduce new mechanics and more strategy to the game. I dont think anyone here has ever been in a mythic level WoW raid or ever been in a vanilla WoW 40 man raid. Taunts add such a new dimension to end game content...you wouldnt believe. Right now, threat tables are simplistic at best and not very strategic either.1 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.As someone who does tank...
No, I don't want an AoE taunt, and there shouldn't be an AoE taunt in this game.
Yeah, that explains nothing except your own stance on it, which is quite clear by everyone that has said so. I mean really, I have yet to hear a good reason why AoE Taunts should not be in this game.
"I don't want it"
"It's easy mode"
"It's not needed"
That's pretty much all I'm hearing, and it just isn't good enough. In fact, those same reasons can apply to literally EVERYTHING in or not in this game. Good arguments, they don't make.Some of the more fun content for a tank is the few fights where the tank keeps dragging the mob away from the boss so the rest of the group can whomp him. The final boss in Banished Cells is a good example of this especially if your DPS isn't really quick on the boss.
An AoE taunt would take all the fun out of that fight. There are a few other fights like that and my opinion is we need more like that where the tank doesn't just grab the boss.
That aside there are plenty of ways for a tank to control mobs. Tank goes in first range taunts a few evil doers to get the largest number coming in at him. Toss a talons down on them to keep them there then grab a few ranged evil doers with chains. And yeah I know not every tank has chains, but hey every healer doesn't have breath of life or repentence and they find another way to get the job done.
Again just opinion here but I think an AoE taunt would make some of the interesting fights boring.
And I know taunts are not the only way for a tank to crowd control and control is really what it is about.
Your position is understandable, believe me I more than get it, but the option to AoE Taunt is all we ask for, and personally I find it being an Ultimate that doesn't really even last that long to begin with (like 7 seconds or so, perfectly reasonable) is a fair compromise in my opinion.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 10:01PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭An AOE taunt would be the death of the tank as a dynamic role that needs to make quick judgements about taunt priority and when CC abilities are more appropriate to use than taunts.
It would also be the death of the DPS as a dynamic role that needs to be able to react to and prioritize the threats the tank didn't grab.
In short, an AOE taunt would make group dungeons dead boring. Being attached to an ultimate doesn't change that, especially with many tank builds already being designed around how quickly they can build ultimate.
I was going to write a thoughtful version of my opinion, rather than just adding another "no" but this says more than I could, better than I could have.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
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House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.
Well obviously the tank will be in the most danger as they are going to dealing with the most dangerous threat. So I don't understand your point.
The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
I feel as if defensive characters should be used to neutralize high offense threats. That alone should make them invaluable to a group. You don't have to take it to the extreme and make them shield the entire group 100% of the time from any and all direct attacks from all enemies. Old School MMORPG combat wasn't that like either.Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 10:13PM2 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.
Well obviously the tank will be in the most danger as they are going to dealing with the most dangerous threat. So I don't understand your point.
The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them.. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth of the combat itself.
I feel as if defensive characters should be used to neutralize high-offensive threats. That alone would make them invaluable to a group. You don't have to take it to the extreme and make them shield the entire group 100% of the time from any and all direct attacks.
It's not an opinion, that is literally what tanks exist for. The more aggro they pull the more they do their job. It's all about keeping allies safe so said allies can do THEIR jobs! I really do get how people want the challenge of having to do it 1 at a time and no "easy mode" from AoE Taunts but at the same time isn't that just forcing most Tanks to be exactly the same? It's like how there's the whole argument that healers need to be Templars... Problem with taunting though is there are only 3 ways to do it, 1 of which is a set bonus. At the very least an AoE taunt gives us another means to it.
Perhaps if Zenimax actually gave us a trial worthy of such a necessity many would re-think their stance on this concept, but until then all we that actually want it can do is continue to hope we get it someday...
By the way AoE Taunts still technically have a radius, so they won't ALWAYS pull EVERY mob in the fight.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 10:15PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy1 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.3 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 10:24PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.
Well obviously the tank will be in the most danger as they are going to dealing with the most dangerous threat. So I don't understand your point.
The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them.. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth of the combat itself.
I feel as if defensive characters should be used to neutralize high-offensive threats. That alone would make them invaluable to a group. You don't have to take it to the extreme and make them shield the entire group 100% of the time from any and all direct attacks.
It's not an opinion, that is literally what tanks exist for. The more aggro they pull the more they do their job. It's all about keeping allies safe so said allies can do THEIR jobs! I really do get how people want the challenge of having to do it 1 at a time and no "easy mode" from AoE Taunts but at the same time isn't that just forcing most Tanks to be exactly the same? It's like how there's the whole argument that healers need to be Templars... Problem with taunting though is there are only 3 ways to do it, 1 of which is a set bonus. At the very least an AoE taunt gives us another means to it.
Perhaps if Zenimax actually gave us a trial worthy of such a necessity many would re-think their stance on this concept, but until then all we that actually want it can do is continue to hope we get it someday...
By the way AoE Taunts still technically have a radius, so they won't ALWAYS pull EVERY mob in the fight.
No it's an opinion because not everyone sees the role of a tank in the same way. You can recognize them as being defensive characters whose role is to protect and shield allies without automatically believing that means it must be their job to to keep entire armies of monsters taunted on them instead of attacking anyone else.
It was not unusual in old school MMORPGs for classes other than the tank to have to deal with incoming enemies. This idea that just one player in the group is suppose to be attacked and it's that one person's job to keep huge crowds of monsters taunted on them is a relatively new one.
In many of the older games other classes had to use CC abilities and spells to keep themselves safe - or for other melee characters to off-tank them while the main tank dealt with the boss. This makes the combat more interesting and fun instead of everyone just hiding behind a single character while spamming their favorite dps or healing rotations.Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 11:03PM2 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.
Well obviously the tank will be in the most danger as they are going to dealing with the most dangerous threat. So I don't understand your point.
The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them.. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth of the combat itself.
I feel as if defensive characters should be used to neutralize high-offensive threats. That alone would make them invaluable to a group. You don't have to take it to the extreme and make them shield the entire group 100% of the time from any and all direct attacks.
It's not an opinion, that is literally what tanks exist for. The more aggro they pull the more they do their job. It's all about keeping allies safe so said allies can do THEIR jobs! I really do get how people want the challenge of having to do it 1 at a time and no "easy mode" from AoE Taunts but at the same time isn't that just forcing most Tanks to be exactly the same? It's like how there's the whole argument that healers need to be Templars... Problem with taunting though is there are only 3 ways to do it, 1 of which is a set bonus. At the very least an AoE taunt gives us another means to it.
Perhaps if Zenimax actually gave us a trial worthy of such a necessity many would re-think their stance on this concept, but until then all we that actually want it can do is continue to hope we get it someday...
By the way AoE Taunts still technically have a radius, so they won't ALWAYS pull EVERY mob in the fight.
No it's an opinion because not everyone sees the role of a tank in the same way. You can recognize them as being defensive characters whose role is to protect and shield allies without automatically believing that means it must be their job to to keep entire armies of monsters taunted on them instead of attacking anyone else.
It was not unusual in old school MMORPGs for classes other than the tank to have to deal with incoming enemies. This idea that just one player in the group is suppose to be attacked and it's that person's job to keep huge crowds of monsters taunted is a relatively new one. In many of the older games other classes had to use CC abilities and spells to keep themselves safe - or for other melee characters to off-tank them while the main tank dealt with the boss. This makes the combat more interesting and fun instead of everyone just hiding behind a single character while spamming their favorite dps or healing rotation.
Ok I gotcha now. Classic case of people confusing tanking with being bulky. That happens a lot in this game's community lol
Don't know why people believe being bulky makes you a tank though... If that were true I'd basically have 3 tanks instead of just the 1 actual tank I have. I guess definitions have gotten vague over the years and they just don't mean what they used to to people anymore.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 10:57PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss or enemy leader.
Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 11:04PM2 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 11:03PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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mildlylucid✭✭✭@UltimaJoe777 I have to say you are doing a far better job at arguing your point than everyone else in this thread. However, I disagree with you and believe that an AoE taunt should not be added to this game.
AFAIK in most MMOs the majority of heals are single target. This means it's most efficient for the healer to only heal one player, so the tank tries to take all the damage.
In ESO the majority of heals are AoE (I know this because when I annoy my pocket healer he stops healing me and dies because he can't heal himself
). So having only one person take all the damage is actually harder on the healer than having multiple people take damage. Tanks in this game can take more damage but only require the same amount of healing, and can survive without a healer (as is necessary in certain fights). Hence why they exist to take the hardest damage dealers. (Sometimes this will include taunting everything such as the Ash Titan fight).
If an AoE taunt was implemented into this game I would say it would actually be a disadvantage to PUGs and low level tanks. Currently there are likely many new tanks that try to taut all mobs, however because of the single target taunts, it is impossible. With an AoE taunt they would likely succeed in taunting everything to the detriment of the group as a whole.
Another day, another deathtrap.
PC | NA | CP: 690+
Main: Littlewill (50) - Khajiit Dragonknight Tank
Alts:Bajzhli-do (50) - Khajiit Stamina Dragonknight DPS
Tlanir Dro'flayn (23) - Dunmer Magicka Nightblade DPS
Morgayne Dalodrel (21) - Breton Magicka Templar Healer
Tumande Stormwatch (20) - Altmer Magicka Sorcerer DPS
Tamdril Merilyn (5) - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight DPS
Bjorngrim Ingensen (5) - Nord Warden Tank
Gwynereth Bonecrusher (4) - Bosmer Stamina Warden DPS1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
Be careful of slippery slope that because other games have it, that it should work here. There are various ways that this can be implemented but it's the design that the devs decided to go for. Preach to them.
It's really just Tanking 101. Tanks keep the danger off their allies and the more efficient the better.
This game isn't played on rails like other games. In most situations tank doesn't need to tank everything, onky the big bad stuff. DPS have the responsibility to move or block when needed.
I cannot think of a trash pull in trials, even in vet trials where everything needs to be tanked.
Umm I do disagree with this and agree at the same time. The game does need a aggro table. There are several fights in end vet trials and vet dungeons more so in the new Soth vets you are required to hold many enemies more then 4 sometimes more. The major issue is there is little need for CC type utility because of ridiculous immunity on some of these adds and length of abilty. I've tanked everything in game aside from 3 of the 4 vet trials. And the crappy undaunted ranged taunt is completely unreliable. It's been extremely bad since last update. I don't know if a aoe taunt is needed but they do need to bring skill and knowledge back to tanking. There is very little pulling techniques in eso ,LOS no skills the require a possum pull, pet pull, or even body pull. The mechanics are very shallow.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mildlylucid wrote: »@UltimaJoe777 I have to say you are doing a far better job at arguing your point than everyone else in this thread. However, I disagree with you and believe that an AoE taunt should not be added to this game.
AFAIK in most MMOs the majority of heals are single target. This means it's most efficient for the healer to only heal one player, so the tank tries to take all the damage.
In ESO the majority of heals are AoE (I know this because when I annoy my pocket healer he stops healing me and dies because he can't heal himself). So having only one person take all the damage is actually harder on the healer than having multiple people take damage. Tanks in this game can take more damage but only require the same amount of healing, and can survive without a healer (as is necessary in certain fights). Hence why they exist to take the hardest damage dealers. (Sometimes this will include taunting everything such as the Ash Titan fight).
If an AoE taunt was implemented into this game I would say it would actually be a disadvantage to PUGs and low level tanks. Currently there are likely many new tanks that try to taut all mobs, however because of the single target taunts, it is impossible. With an AoE taunt they would likely succeed in taunting everything to the detriment of the group as a whole.
I appreciate the observation lol and to be fair ESO uses auto-target whereas other games do not, and while it is true they feature more single-target than multi heals they do still have SOME multi-target heals.
As for the risk of amateur tanks running AoE Taunt only to end up overwhelmed that is a valid point, and it largely depends on their build. My tank is a pure Health build which has well over 40k Health without food buffs, is an Imperial Templar, and does a damn good job at tanking. However, he has abysmal DPS lol so he wouldn't be entirely ideal in a place like vWGT without an AoE Taunt to grab the mobs that come from the portals he cannot close in time. Just an example and yeah some people are gonna say "just change your build" but that just brings me back to my previous point on forcing tanks to be the same.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.
Well obviously the tank will be in the most danger as they are going to dealing with the most dangerous threat. So I don't understand your point.
The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them.. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth of the combat itself.
I feel as if defensive characters should be used to neutralize high-offensive threats. That alone would make them invaluable to a group. You don't have to take it to the extreme and make them shield the entire group 100% of the time from any and all direct attacks.
It's not an opinion, that is literally what tanks exist for. The more aggro they pull the more they do their job. It's all about keeping allies safe so said allies can do THEIR jobs! I really do get how people want the challenge of having to do it 1 at a time and no "easy mode" from AoE Taunts but at the same time isn't that just forcing most Tanks to be exactly the same? It's like how there's the whole argument that healers need to be Templars... Problem with taunting though is there are only 3 ways to do it, 1 of which is a set bonus. At the very least an AoE taunt gives us another means to it.
Perhaps if Zenimax actually gave us a trial worthy of such a necessity many would re-think their stance on this concept, but until then all we that actually want it can do is continue to hope we get it someday...
By the way AoE Taunts still technically have a radius, so they won't ALWAYS pull EVERY mob in the fight.
No it's an opinion because not everyone sees the role of a tank in the same way. You can recognize them as being defensive characters whose role is to protect and shield allies without automatically believing that means it must be their job to to keep entire armies of monsters taunted on them instead of attacking anyone else.
It was not unusual in old school MMORPGs for classes other than the tank to have to deal with incoming enemies. This idea that just one player in the group is suppose to be attacked and it's that person's job to keep huge crowds of monsters taunted is a relatively new one. In many of the older games other classes had to use CC abilities and spells to keep themselves safe - or for other melee characters to off-tank them while the main tank dealt with the boss. This makes the combat more interesting and fun instead of everyone just hiding behind a single character while spamming their favorite dps or healing rotation.
Ok I gotcha now. Classic case of people confusing tanking with being bulky. That happens a lot in this game's community lol
Don't know why people believe being bulky makes you a tank though... If that were true I'd basically have 3 tanks instead of just the 1 actual tank I have. I guess definitions have gotten vague over the years and they just don't mean what they used to to people anymore.
My post was not about being bulky. So I believe you may have misunderstood me.
I was basically describing a difference in perspective. You seem to see it as the job of a tank to gain aggro on all monsters and keep them fighting you instead of others. I see the role of a tank as being more about neutralizing the high-damaging attacks of major enemies rather than keeping other players from having to fight enemies of their own.Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 11:15PM3 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »ZOS has already made a stance on this. They will not be adding aoe taunt as from their perspective, tank should really take care of the biggest threat as it comes whereas the rest of the party try to take care of the ones that the tank cannot look after. They have mentioned this in previous ESO LIVE (not sure which one, but go and have a look).
You know what's funny though? Other games do AoE Taunting, and have Tank builds and roles and stuff. Sounds like a cop out to me. In fact, anime about MMOs do this, like Log Horizon!
As for it being the 1h and Shield Ultimate it's fine if it isn't but they can make it the Undaunted Ultimate and tack on a synergy effect. For example...
Using this Ultimate puts a flag on your back for 10 seconds, and enemies within 28 meters will prioritize the flag bearer over the others and allies can activate a synergy that grants them a buff of some sort for 10 seconds.
And on other games the tank is usually the only who is ever taking damage or having to deal with an enemy's direct attack. That sounds contrary to the kind of gameplay the developers want on this game. So I don't understand why it is a cop out. What they say does make sense to me here.
If they want other roles to be in just as much danger as tanks then why do they even want tanks in the game? Taking all the hits is the Tank's Job and Purpose.
Well obviously the tank will be in the most danger as they are going to dealing with the most dangerous threat. So I don't understand your point.
The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them.. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth of the combat itself.
I feel as if defensive characters should be used to neutralize high-offensive threats. That alone would make them invaluable to a group. You don't have to take it to the extreme and make them shield the entire group 100% of the time from any and all direct attacks.
It's not an opinion, that is literally what tanks exist for. The more aggro they pull the more they do their job. It's all about keeping allies safe so said allies can do THEIR jobs! I really do get how people want the challenge of having to do it 1 at a time and no "easy mode" from AoE Taunts but at the same time isn't that just forcing most Tanks to be exactly the same? It's like how there's the whole argument that healers need to be Templars... Problem with taunting though is there are only 3 ways to do it, 1 of which is a set bonus. At the very least an AoE taunt gives us another means to it.
Perhaps if Zenimax actually gave us a trial worthy of such a necessity many would re-think their stance on this concept, but until then all we that actually want it can do is continue to hope we get it someday...
By the way AoE Taunts still technically have a radius, so they won't ALWAYS pull EVERY mob in the fight.
No it's an opinion because not everyone sees the role of a tank in the same way. You can recognize them as being defensive characters whose role is to protect and shield allies without automatically believing that means it must be their job to to keep entire armies of monsters taunted on them instead of attacking anyone else.
It was not unusual in old school MMORPGs for classes other than the tank to have to deal with incoming enemies. This idea that just one player in the group is suppose to be attacked and it's that person's job to keep huge crowds of monsters taunted is a relatively new one. In many of the older games other classes had to use CC abilities and spells to keep themselves safe - or for other melee characters to off-tank them while the main tank dealt with the boss. This makes the combat more interesting and fun instead of everyone just hiding behind a single character while spamming their favorite dps or healing rotation.
Ok I gotcha now. Classic case of people confusing tanking with being bulky. That happens a lot in this game's community lol
Don't know why people believe being bulky makes you a tank though... If that were true I'd basically have 3 tanks instead of just the 1 actual tank I have. I guess definitions have gotten vague over the years and they just don't mean what they used to to people anymore.
My post was not about being bulky. So I believe you may have misunderstood me.
I was basically describing a difference in perspective. You seem to see it as the job of a tank to gain aggro on all monsters and keep them fighting you instead of others. I see the role of a tank as being more about neutralizing the high-damaging attacks of major enemies rather than keeping other players from having to fight against their own enemies.
Sure I can get behind tanks running buffs and debuffs instead of just pulling aggro only, in fact that's something DKs excel at! That just makes it a multi-purpose tank, yet at the same time healers can do that too.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.
I won't disagree with that. There is a mindset out there that perpetuates this kind of thinking. It's a harmful mindset though, and has succeeded in dumbing down the combat in many other MMORPGs to boring proportions. And I would hate to see that happen here.Edited by Jeremy on September 6, 2016 11:20PM0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »The idea that only tanks should be getting hit is just an opinion. Others (including it seems the developers of this game) don't see it that way. I prefer a style of combat that more accurately reflects the kind of medieval warfare the game is trying to convey instead of everyone hiding behind a single character without having to worry about anything coming after them. That sort of combat gets old fast and limits the strategic depth and potential of the gameplay itself.
This. Tank and spank is boring. Just because other games do it doesn't mean this one should. There is a reason I play this game and not those games.
By this logic Tanks should not be in the game at all. But then how would all those pure DPS builds manage? They'd have to protect themselves on top of do damage. And healers would be hard-pressed to do THEIR jobs.
Sure a small minority might get by without a Tank around to lighten the load, but not every group, especially PUGs, can clear certain content without a Tank.
The way I understand the developer's vision is that other classes need to develop ways to protect themselves from the lesser threats. This can be done without sacrificing their individual roles as either damage dealers or healers. Tanks are there for the larger threats - such as going mano e mano with the boss.
I can dig that, Akatosh knows my Sorcerer does it. In fact, he could honestly double as a Tank if he weren't so squishy that sheer numbers render his shields useless lol but not everyone has the mindset to do so because they don't want to "sacrifice" their DPS to protect themselves.
I won't disagree with that. There is a mindset out there that perpetuates this kind of thinking. It's a harmful mindset though, and has succeeded in dumbing down the combat in many other MMORPGs to boring proportions. And I would hate to see that happen on this game.
Yeah I oft times find myself wanting something more from ESO as well, but that's comparing it to games like Final Fantasy or Fiesta Online or other various and more lighthearted and fantastical MMOs. Not saying I want ESO to be like them or anything, it's just moments where I miss that sort of stuff and can't have it lol
If you ask me I think it's high time ESO got a full group raid dungeon, and I mean a full 24-man group! Make it challenging enough that nothing feels like easy mode. In fact, give it handicaps that restrict certain aspects, such as damage caps and stuff so people can't just charge in with a typical pure DPS meta build without getting gimped.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on September 6, 2016 11:22PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
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