Bugs and Ninja Nerfing: lightning staff, Fighter's guild, speed, and pets... What else?

radiostar · September 2016

We missed that one in the current bug list

Drummerx04 · September 2016

@Wrobel I will try to refrain from any unnecessary name calling but I can't stay silent on this one.

If this is going to stay in the live update then PUT IT IN THE PATCH NOTES please. This is not a bug fix unless it is acknowledged in the patch notes as a bug or otherwise stated by a dev in the forums to be a bug. It is a malicious stealth nerf as previously mentioned in the thread.

The lightning AOE isn't OP. It's a tradeoff like many other builds in this game. Compared to other AOE options it comes with some additional risks/downsides.

You cannot move at maximum speed, so moving out of red is more difficult
You cannot block during the channel (dangerous AF in pvp)
The target can move out of the group and it can be difficult to target an ideal center mob.
The radius of the AOE isn't really that big. I would guess about 4-5m.

I think the real question though: Why is this a problem that needed fixing?
Do you get complaints from pvpers? I've never been even close to outright killed by a lightning channel or the splash damagel, and when I do see it on my death recap the tick is for < 1k. I tried using a sharpened lightning with 3k spell damage 40k magicka and it still hit for less than a single tick of vigor every time.

Do you get complaints from pve players? I legitimately cannot imagine ANY pve players complaining that mag dps is too high. Quite literally every single end game pve guild parrots the massive dps superiority of stamina.

You don't want to directly boost magicka dps? Fine. But please stop killing it. Thank you.

Drummerx04 · September 2016

Additonally, did they nerf this by changing what counts as a fully charged heavy attack? There are several sets that proc'd with every tick of lightning staff channel. Notably arch-mage and infallible. That would be an irritating development as well.

Omgwtfbbq321 · September 2016

This is disappointing. In my eyes, it was the constant AOE damage that made it a reasonable choice in place of the fire staff.

DHale · September 2016

There was never any promise made to balance this game. Believe me i want it too but this was never the intent for this upcoming patch.

code65536 · September 2016

DHale wrote: »

There was never any promise made to balance this game. Believe me i want it too but this was never the intent for this upcoming patch.

It's one thing to not make any changes to balance the game.

It's quite another to nerf something, thus creating a greater imbalance and decreasing the a player's options for viable builds.

If you aren't going to do any good, at the very least do no harm. That did not happen here.

Slakk · September 2016

Coming from a more PvE focused player, I cannot begin to state how heavily disappointed I am in this change/fix/whatever.

Long before maelstrom weapons I had always wanted to see lightning staves and just the element in general be more effective coming up against fire.
When Maelstrom weapons and later on infallible came into the game, it was really fantastic to see lightning staves become accepted as an option for its AoE splash and better resource management.

Now perhaps having the ticks before the shock pulse count as a "fully charged heavy attack" proccing sets such as infallible minor vulnerability or arch mages resource return may not have been intended, but the AoE splash on the lightning channel was a beautiful thing and it opened up so many more build possibilities in this games magicka builds.
Not to mention, destruction staff passives are seriously lackluster as a whole right now.
Why do this now? This is just flat out not only hurting magickas options which are extremely limited right now, but just taking away a build that also made a lot of sense to the caster playstyle.

And as a personal note, I used this build on my casters a lot when I was soloing or running with less experienced groups when I needed better resource management. This not only wrecks even more of the limited magicka build options, but takes a ton of the fun out of the game for me as a whole.

@Wrobel
I ask you nicely, please reconsider this change at least for the current state of magicka builds for at least pve right now.
If you want to make sets that proc on fully charged heavy attacks only apply on the shock pulse, I'm perfectly ok with this cause that's probably the way it was intended but please don't take away the AoE splash on lightning staves channel. This is just a large blow to what flexibility was left in todays pve magicka builds.

Gilliamtherogue · September 2016

When I first read about a suggested Lightning Staff build, I won't lie, I laughed hysterically. Since the dawn of the game, Fire Destruction Staves have been at the head of the pack for choices by LEAGUES since they all operate with dealing more upfront damage or synergizing well with other abilities. Running any other element was gimping yourself with absolutely zero gain, and effectively killed all diversity from an end game standpoint.

Now all of a sudden Maelstrom Staves and Infalliable Aether enter the field and some people with creative minds got to thinking on how to maximize their efficiency, and sure enough, Lightning Staves came into the picture. Rewind to a few months ago when these sets launched, Lightning Staves now became a rock solid *option* to run in END game situations. This alone is pretty revolutionary, for something to magically stand up to the die hard meta of 1 year + of a game, and be able to hold its own. Even better, the builds were extremely unique and utilizable by a larger portion of ESO's player base due to a more simplistic rotation. On top of this, they weren't wholly applicable, they had a clear disadvantage that made players engage in thought provoking scenarios where they had to weigh their gains and losses for each encounter, and make an educated and thoughtful choice on which build to use.

This build literally screamed what ESO's driving build philosophy has been since it launched. SO many times we have heard Devs say they want players to have options, yet we look at the meta and it is so stale with copy pasta builds from one to another. While I don't mind this per say (since I'm usually one of the people MAKING those metas), it was so revitalizing to see something new and totally unique come in and be able to be applicable to end game without absolutely leaving any other build pointless.

ZoS, you really need to reconsider this. I truly hope this was an unintended change, or simply a "fix" that you may have not realized would impact such an important aspect of the game. Removing procables from "fully charged heavy attacks" off of the splash is 100% acceptable, as it wasn't the driving reason the build was used, but allowing Lightning Staves to finally have a reason and purpose in ESO's meta was awesome, and I am extremely disappointed to see it go. Please @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom take a look at what myself and many other players are saying and see our point, and at least give us something.

asneakybanana · September 2016

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I am extremely disappointed to hear about this. As one of the people who really helped to fine tune this build's gear and bar setup it hurts a little bit to hear that all that testing has all gone to waste. Sure the build might have been a little bit cheesy but im totally okay with that because it wasn't the top dps build but more of a mid tier build that was good enough to get you through most of the end game content without the hardest weaving/ dot heavy rotation such as the regular magic dk or magic sorc rotations which require perfect light attack weaving as well as knowing exactly when to recast your dots. As many others have said I was finally excited to see some new build possibilities open up in terms of both gear and skills. The same old TBS, undaunted, 3 pc undaunted, and and inferno staff has been the meta for every magic class except templar for over a year now and we finally had something unique running a couple of 5 piece sets and a lightning staff. This build wasn't the easiest build to run if you really wanted to max out the damage potential w/ 5 elegant and 5 infallible aether since you dont get any health bonus or armor bonus from running 5/1/1 and you also had no health bonuses on the gear so you would be running 16077 health with under 10k resists while basically never holding block since you were almost always channeling the heavy attack. I urge you guys to reconsider this change/fix and keep lightning staff the way that it is on live for the sake of diversity and viability of magic builds in end game content.

SirMewser · September 2016

Here is another one.

hrothbern wrote: »

Well @Aletheion , @mzapkeneb18_ESO ,

I checked out 20 abilities, both Magicka as Stamina, that had exactly the same costs in live as PTS
Base Recoveries are the same. Recoveries on the sets are the same.

The only difference I saw between live an PTS were the Fighters Guild abilities, that were all increased with 25%. In the patch notes only the Ultimate was mentioned.
So somebody using Trap Beast all the time will feel the difference.

Discussion: Ability Cost Increase...
From: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3326706#Comment_3326706
I can confirm this.

From patch notes, only includes the Dawnbreaker ultimate change.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Guild
Fighters Guild
Dawnbreaker: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs to 125 Ultimate from 100.

silky_soft · September 2016

They did what? Hahaha, never cease to amaze me. I guess I'll convert my vd lightening staff dk into a cancer tank.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

@ZOS_RichLambert you have spoken many times about player choice and build diversity. The build which involves the use of the lightning staff was one of these non-meta situational builds that worked wonders when run properly. Perhaps the AoE on each tick was unintended. If this is the case can you please let us know what IS the appropriate use for a lightning staff? Perhaps the community at large has been missing the intent behind this staff type. When I discovered how this build could revolutionize PvE gameplay i honestly thought that this was it. This was the original intent by the devs to provide us with uses for a lightning staff. There would be obvious drawbacks - lower single target damage, but over all it would be a build that is different and that works in appropriate situations. Perhaps I completely missed your intended point. Please enlighten us in some way regarding how we could adequately use a lightning staff without incurring a massive DPS loss, since there is a disproportionate amount of buffs to fire in the game.

A balance implies that there are negative aspects in addition to positive aspects from using a certain thing. What are drawbacks of using a fire staff over a lightning staff? And what about Ice???

Pleas reconsider this change as it would further pigeonhole us into a few select sets.

SublimeSparo · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert you have spoken many times about player choice and build diversity. The build which involves the use of the lightning staff was one of these non-meta situational builds that worked wonders when run properly. Perhaps the AoE on each tick was unintended. If this is the case can you please let us know what IS the appropriate use for a lightning staff? Perhaps the community at large has been missing the intent behind this staff type. When I discovered how this build could revolutionize PvE gameplay i honestly thought that this was it. This was the original intent by the devs to provide us with uses for a lightning staff. There would be obvious drawbacks - lower single target damage, but over all it would be a build that is different and that works in appropriate situations. Perhaps I completely missed your intended point. Please enlighten us in some way regarding how we could adequately use a lightning staff without incurring a massive DPS loss, since there is a disproportionate amount of buffs to fire in the game.

A balance implies that there are negative aspects in addition to positive aspects from using a certain thing. What are drawbacks of using a fire staff over a lightning staff? And what about Ice???

Pleas reconsider this change as it would further pigeonhole us into a few select sets.

Careful, knowing ZoS they'll just nerf inferno staff to be inline with lightning and ice lol

hrothbern · September 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert you have spoken many times about player choice and build diversity. The build which involves the use of the lightning staff was one of these non-meta situational builds that worked wonders when run properly. Perhaps the AoE on each tick was unintended. If this is the case can you please let us know what IS the appropriate use for a lightning staff? Perhaps the community at large has been missing the intent behind this staff type. When I discovered how this build could revolutionize PvE gameplay i honestly thought that this was it. This was the original intent by the devs to provide us with uses for a lightning staff. There would be obvious drawbacks - lower single target damage, but over all it would be a build that is different and that works in appropriate situations. Perhaps I completely missed your intended point. Please enlighten us in some way regarding how we could adequately use a lightning staff without incurring a massive DPS loss, since there is a disproportionate amount of buffs to fire in the game.

A balance implies that there are negative aspects in addition to positive aspects from using a certain thing. What are drawbacks of using a fire staff over a lightning staff? And what about Ice???

Pleas reconsider this change as it would further pigeonhole us into a few select sets.

Careful, knowing ZoS they'll just nerf inferno staff to be inline with lightning and ice lol

We can always attach a string to our staffs

timidobserver · September 2016

It seems kind of interesting that of all things in the game, they opted to nerf the lightning staff.

Ankael07 · September 2016

You know how this feels as a magicka sorcerer? Im already repeatedly kicked to the ground and this ''fix'' is a spit to the face as a mockery

Rohamad_Ali · September 2016

Wrobel must hates magic . I wonder if he had a bad magician at his home for birthday party as kid and got upset .

Reevster · September 2016

Yet another reason my Magic toons are only useful to login in for hirelings and doing writs , and doing writs is even questionable now.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert you have spoken many times about player choice and build diversity. The build which involves the use of the lightning staff was one of these non-meta situational builds that worked wonders when run properly. Perhaps the AoE on each tick was unintended. If this is the case can you please let us know what IS the appropriate use for a lightning staff? Perhaps the community at large has been missing the intent behind this staff type. When I discovered how this build could revolutionize PvE gameplay i honestly thought that this was it. This was the original intent by the devs to provide us with uses for a lightning staff. There would be obvious drawbacks - lower single target damage, but over all it would be a build that is different and that works in appropriate situations. Perhaps I completely missed your intended point. Please enlighten us in some way regarding how we could adequately use a lightning staff without incurring a massive DPS loss, since there is a disproportionate amount of buffs to fire in the game.

A balance implies that there are negative aspects in addition to positive aspects from using a certain thing. What are drawbacks of using a fire staff over a lightning staff? And what about Ice???

Pleas reconsider this change as it would further pigeonhole us into a few select sets.

Careful, knowing ZoS they'll just nerf inferno staff to be inline with lightning and ice lol

lol I wouldnt be surprised...

dagonbeer · September 2016

Agree with everything that's been said. For once people are only saying "Ice staves are useless" as opposed to "Ice and lightning staves are garbage." I don't think anyone considers it overpowered (even from those running dodge roll builds) and it opens up interesting synergies. Please revert @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

jhharvest · September 2016

I think they nerfed it because I use one. ZOS has consistently nerfed every skill and class I've used, within a few months of me starting to use them.

Cously · September 2016

ZOS, what is your beef with Magicka DKs? Seems like you are trying to see this class killed.

Drummerx04 · September 2016

This is a big deal because it doesn't just affect one class. This affects all magicka characters build potential.

This is like ZOS looking at dual wielding and saying "steel tornado doesn't need to deal 100% extra damage to low health targets, let's change it to 20% extra damage. And while we are at it, let's reduce the slaghter passive to 3/5% down from 10/20% and let's not put any of that in the patch notes. I doubt anyone willnotice anyway."

If for some reason ZOS absolutely cannot accept AOE during the channel, I think we can all agree this would not be so bad iff the AOE simply got pushed to the shock pulse at the end of the channel (someone mentioned this earlier). So if each of 4 ticks deals 5k, then the aoe would deal 20k with the explosion at the end.

This would be a slight nerf because you can't melt mobs quite as effectively in maelstrom or other similar situations, but in long trial fights, the AOE would not be so horrendously impacted and lightning would remain a viable weapon.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

This is a big deal because it doesn't just affect one class. This affects all magicka characters build potential.

This is like ZOS looking at dual wielding and saying "steel tornado doesn't need to deal 100% extra damage to low health targets, let's change it to 20% extra damage. And while we are at it, let's reduce the slaghter passive to 3/5% down from 10/20% and let's not put any of that in the patch notes. I doubt anyone willnotice anyway."

If for some reason ZOS absolutely cannot accept AOE during the channel, I think we can all agree this would not be so bad iff the AOE simply got pushed to the shock pulse at the end of the channel (someone mentioned this earlier). So if each of 4 ticks deals 5k, then the aoe would deal 20k with the explosion at the end.

This would be a slight nerf because you can't melt mobs quite as effectively in maelstrom or other similar situations, but in long trial fights, the AOE would not be so horrendously impacted and lightning would remain a viable weapon.

I'd take that over nothing any day...

Cronopoly · September 2016

On Sorcerer, of course, this definitely bypasses the Execute Passive, many times on the added mobs, so I'm not surprised. Nerf, nerf, nerf.

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2016

We certainly never intend to purposely not include information in the patch notes. We'll follow up early next week and figure out what the deal here is.

Solariken · September 2016

Toast_STS wrote: »

It needed a nerf. Not sure how I feel about this yet but lightning staff can hit harder than fire single target and it could do crazy AoE.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yisP67coJGA

And then there's the lag it causes in pvp http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Toast STS/video/21199858

It did NOT need a nerf. Especially not based on this build (which is awesome btw). Builds like this are only possible because there is no diminishing return or soft cap on damage output and so many damage calculations in ESO are prone to crazy runaway multiplicative boost.

Shadesofkin · September 2016

Even if it's an intentional "fix" it's like animation cancelling, it did something to make part of the game more dynamic. In this case, it made something OTHER THAN FIRE an option.

As it stands, only the most dim-witted or mad genius use anything other than Fire staves for endgame. I've seen creative non-fire build set ups, but the Lightning Staff with Aether and Maelstrom was the first to break the meta standard and add to endgame in a long time.

Revert the change and make it an unintentional but welcome addition like animation cancelling.

Slakk · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We certainly never intend to purposely not include information in the patch notes. We'll follow up early next week and figure out what the deal here is.

Thank you for reading our pleas, I'm really crossing my fingers that it's good news.
Don't just throw this in the garbage bin, find a compromise so it can still have its place.

edit: something

Cronopoly · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We certainly never intend to purposely not include information in the patch notes. We'll follow up early next week and figure out what the deal here is.

It's all we've got as Magicka Sorc in PVP to reliably get a hit on the target, we'll save getting kills for some future alternate universe. I digress. It only tickles in PVP and definitely is outhealed with Rally/Vigor and has killed no one ever solo. I know it's sad when we have to beg for scraps...