It's time to update Vigor

Xsorus · August 2016

Icky wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Unless you decide to actually use the Reverb Bash. Its a route you can take if you choose to but you have two viable options there to deal with it.

If you believe that using a costly stamina attack as a magicka DK (against an enemy running shuffle and rolling all the time) is a viable option, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Its a bloody 10 second Healing Debuff, yes I think you should use it

It does not matter how long the debuff is, a magicka spec simply cannot afford using an expensive stamina attack that will on average miss 2 times out of 3 tries due to the target running shuffle and/or roll dodging.

I assume you use CC break?
Use it after CC break on the target.
If you've build your character with the right CP you'll be fine; if not Pick up one of the sets I suggested..Or continue to complain that your Heavily Dot based DPS is having trouble killing Stam Users....You either build to counter what you're having trouble with or you can hope they just absolutely gut vigor.

Icky wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

[

Magicka dks generally build tanky so duroks or fasalla is a pretty good setup for them; or they can run 1hd shield like damn near everyone of them runs in pvp. If you want to use dw I recommend fasalla or duroks.

Great, your mDK can put on a heal debuff. Go ahead and heal debuff me, I'll go AFK and get a sandwich, when I come back your DK might have me down to 50% health.

I spam dark flare every night in Cyrodiil. High weapon damage + vigor/rally is enough for players who know what they are doing to still heal through lots of incoming damage. To say nothing that vigor users themselves have access to heal debuffs so it's not like that's a weakness that is supposed to balance it Vs. mutagen.

Are you really trying to argue with me on this? At best you're going to heal for 4500 with Vigor, That's 2250 Heal over time with a heal debuff on ya....I'll give ya say 1250 on rally Extra....and i'm being generous there.... that's 3500 Heal you have to deal with....Are you telling me you can't outdamage that?

Wow, you are ssooooooo wrong. Vigor heals for much more than that. You can also use it inside an enemy negate bubble...

I've yet to see Vigor Heal for more then 4500; And I generally run a Blackrose/Fury build so my Weapon Damage gets insane at certain points..I also don't know why you brought up Negate.....Did I Mention Negate?

At best 4500? Thats per tic every .5 seconds right? Also I mentioned how it works inside a Negate bubble just to point out yet another bonus stam gets over everything else. The skill is OP and thats why so many like it.

That's 4500 before cutting it in half with a healing debuff. I'm also confused why you keep bringing up negate? Are you having issues with negate in one vs one?

Sharee · August 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

In fact make a video of it.

What an excellent idea. Why don't you make a video showing how you kill a top-performing, top-meta stamina NB with a heavy armor magicka DK. You say it's possible if i only used reverb bash? Show me.
I'm especially curious about you outdamaging his healing while you wear reactive armor.

Xsorus · August 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

In fact make a video of it.

What an excellent idea. Why don't you make a video showing how you kill a top-performing, top-meta stamina NB with a heavy armor magicka DK. You say it's possible if i only used reverb bash? Show me.
I'm especially curious about you outdamaging his healing while you wear reactive armor.

I'll try and get my Dark Elf Magicka DK finished up instead of switching my Nord back over again and i'll make a Video of me running around. I assume you'll be making your video of your nightblade running around without Vigor of course.

Sharee · August 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

In fact make a video of it.

What an excellent idea. Why don't you make a video showing how you kill a top-performing, top-meta stamina NB with a heavy armor magicka DK. You say it's possible if i only used reverb bash? Show me.
I'm especially curious about you outdamaging his healing while you wear reactive armor.

I'll try and get my Dark Elf Magicka DK finished up instead of switching my Nord back over again and i'll make a Video of me running around. I assume you'll be making your video of your nightblade running around without Vigor of course.

There's a slight problem with that.

When i said a stam build would do fine without vigor being a thing, i of course assumed that vigor wouldn't be a thing for anyone. Its however kinda hard of making a vigor-less video of myself running around doing well when 80% of my opponents will be stam builds who still have vigor, yes?

Not to mention my NB's equipment was competitive around the time when imperial city DLC was released(been playing a mDK ever since). I still might make a video, because i told myself i'll pull the NB out of retirement if ZOS allows stam builds to be OP even after update 12. We'll see.

Skander · August 2016

I disagree, Magicka vigor would be too much powerful for magicka abilities.
Just buff the heals of who needs *cough* Magdk *cough* and then we are ok

Aquanova · August 2016

I agree OP. There's needs to be a Magicka version of this skill so Magicka builds aren't forced to use the resto staff to get heals.

iRogue32 · August 2016

So, when are you gonna make a thread about Stamina classes needing a damage shield that scales with stamina and better ranged options?

coolermh · August 2016

Honestly all hearing in cyrodil needs to reduced to 50%. There is way to much healing going on everywhere. There are classes (and I play them) that can get close to 15k vigor ticks and magika temps that can heal 20-30k crits. Im sorry but if tank/dps can heal for 7-15k dps per second then what is the point of dedicated healers you dont even need them. Combat should come at a risk.

OdinForge · August 2016

coolermh wrote: »

Honestly all hearing in cyrodil needs to reduced to 50%. There is way to much healing going on everywhere. There are classes (and I play them) that can get close to 15k vigor ticks and magika temps that can heal 20-30k crits. Im sorry but if tank/dps can heal for 7-15k dps per second then what is the point of dedicated healers you dont even need them. Combat should come at a risk.

sluice · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.

ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.

I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.

TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.

@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.

It's not Vigor that out heal incoming DPS, but a well placed Rally proc with Vigor and sometime some well placed Dodge roll.

Making vigor also useful for magicka-centric players would be stupid.

Magicka user have plenty of other options to heal or protect themselves, including, by not limited to :

Any class: Shields (Harness Magicka)
Any class: Healing Ward and every skill in the restoration staff skill line.
Sorc: Surge
Nightblade: almost all siphoning abilities ?
Templar : lol
Dragonknight : you're F@#$

hrothbern · August 2016

coolermh wrote: »

Honestly all hearing in cyrodil needs to reduced to 50%. There is way to much healing going on everywhere. There are classes (and I play them) that can get close to 15k vigor ticks and magika temps that can heal 20-30k crits. Im sorry but if tank/dps can heal for 7-15k dps per second then what is the point of dedicated healers you dont even need them. Combat should come at a risk.

There was a good counter against the high healing:

Fasalla's guile started with 50% healing reduction for 5 seconds.
EDIT: BTW the same 5 seconds duration as Vigor !!!
The outcry here on the forum was quite loud.

And now we have 2 seconds.
Perhaps it should be increased again.

Or all healing buffs should be brought on par with the healing debuffs.

Or just like everybody is using sharpened, far more players should really use the defiles.

hrothbern · August 2016

And continuing on too much healing and defiles

like sharpened against Armor Resist

Why not change the Weapon trait Decisive into 10-20% healing debuff (NOT Minor Defile)

bryanhaas · August 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vigor has absolutely zero to do with Stamina being powerful in PvP right now..

I completely disagree. The ability to get from near execute range to full HP by casting vigor and rolling twice is the primary reason why stamina builds are so powerful. Right now, they can easily negate any damage that does not kill them in 2 seconds, which allows them to stay continually on the offensive.

Without vigor, any pure damage focused stam build would be forced to retreat if he failed to kill his target fast. If that wouldn't make him less powerful then i don't know what would.

If someone is getting from execute range to full HP by casting Vigor and rolling twice, You're not using a Healing Debuff.

Right. Next time i am fighting a stamina NB, i'm just gonna keep dropping dragonknight standards on him everytime he cast vigor.

I'd hope you use the one available to you in the 1hd shield line that lasts for 10 seconds, Or maybe use Duroks Bane, or Maybe Cyrodiils Crest, or Maybe Lethal Arrow, Or Maybe Fasalla.

So every magicka class must run S&B on one bar with a stamina based debuff and resto on the back bar to heal? Or run stamina/tank sets like Cyrodiil's Crest, Durok's and Fasallas? And running bow on a mag DK will work out really well.

Your "solutions" are all require magicka players to be tanky with high stamina pools, while Vigor is available to any stam build of any kind.

Force them to use stamina to break free from cc's and constant pressure eventually they run out of stamina then profit!!

bryanhaas · August 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Daveheart wrote: »

Here's rapid Regen:

And here's Vigor:

Just to settle the "which ticks faster?" question, Rapid Regen ticks almost twice as fast as Vigor.

You got it the wrong way around mate. Vigor is the one that ticks faster.

Ermagerd!! Nerf math!!!

Rapid regen = 7.504 seconds at 15,090

Vigor = 4.037 seconds at 15,667

Can't we all just get along

luen79rwb17_ESO · August 2016

Most stamina weapons got some sort of self heals morph. I'd say buff those and balance vigor.

Yes, IMO vigor is not balanced ATM. Too good of a self direct heal and HoT at the same time. That's what makes it so broken.

Not even BoL before it was nerfed was this unbalanced on a large scale PVP enviroment.

Wreuntzylla · August 2016

iRogue32 wrote: »

So, when are you gonna make a thread about Stamina classes needing a damage shield that scales with stamina and better ranged options?

About the same time someone makes a thread about a magicka based roll dodge, defensive posture, block and shuffle.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

Vigor does not tick for 4.5k every .5 seconds in pvp. Wtf are you taking about @Icky ? Ctfo.

Let me put this into perspective for you. You're not having an issue with vigor. You're having an issue with dodge roll + vigor+ evasion + vitality potions + cp. Heals should be strong of you're doing all that.

To anyone saying you can't out dps vigor you're talking about the above usage of synergies. Use healing debuffs, if you can't out for JUST vigor in pvp your bad.

No one can out heal AND I MEAN JUST USING VIGOR, NOT THE SYNERGIES BETWEEN 6 DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE GAME, dps on any of my dps characters. Once again that's just using vigor. Which is what we are taking about.

If you've got a problem with the synergies in the game that's a different story. If stamina didn't have the protection of dodge roll they would be sitting ducks. Even if vigor ticked for 5k in pvp which it doesnt, and rally for 2.5k. that would still be capable of being out dpsed by almost all dps builds.

Memnock · September 2016

As far as i can see , the major complaint is with regards to the vigor morph. So wouldn't the easiest solution to fix this issue be to transform the other morph into a magicka version of Vigor ?

I mean , this way , the stam guys keep their thing and we Magicka guys get out own heal that is not tied to the staff, which would be fantastic IMHO.

sirrmattus · September 2016

Imagine if resto staff had a vigor. ***. Sorcs would be the undisputed kings of pvp

DUTCH_REAPER · September 2016

Memnock wrote: »

As far as i can see , the major complaint is with regards to the vigor morph. So wouldn't the easiest solution to fix this issue be to transform the other morph into a magicka version of Vigor ?

I mean , this way , the stam guys keep their thing and we Magicka guys get out own heal that is not tied to the staff, which would be fantastic IMHO.

What's this? Common sense being used in the forums?

bowmanz607 · September 2016

Memnock wrote: »

As far as i can see , the major complaint is with regards to the vigor morph. So wouldn't the easiest solution to fix this issue be to transform the other morph into a magicka version of Vigor ?

I mean , this way , the stam guys keep their thing and we Magicka guys get out own heal that is not tied to the staff, which would be fantastic IMHO.

Sure, but i want a purge morph for stam then.

Solariken · September 2016

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

As far as i can see , the major complaint is with regards to the vigor morph. So wouldn't the easiest solution to fix this issue be to transform the other morph into a magicka version of Vigor ?

I mean , this way , the stam guys keep their thing and we Magicka guys get out own heal that is not tied to the staff, which would be fantastic IMHO.

Sure, but i want a purge morph for stam then.

If you want to be able to waste a third of your stam pool on Purge, be my guest.

#nerfUnchained

Autolycus · September 2016

I think a big factor in this issue is lack of damage, truthfully. My current flavor in pvp is an all-heavy hybrid build, and I have no problems out-dpsing vigor. It takes a lot more than vigor to fend off a proper assault.

the_man_of_steal · September 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.

ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.

I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.

TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.

@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.

The just nerfed Vigor it pulls you out of stealth now...It's really not that crazy its like 1-2.5K heal every second for 6 seconds? In 6 seconds I can do 40,000 damage on you as a stealthed NB...

Volrion · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alrighty, my points would be:

1. Without Vigor, stam classes become extremely imbalanced in their own group. Sorcs especially have No Access to stam heals, in PvP draining shot is a joke for a heal and then you have two HOTs (combined equal what rally does single handedly) in DW and then Rally.

Meaning to have access to any heals a stam Sorc (prob NBs too) you would HAVE to run 2H (which it is already, but 2H as a healing utility for a build is an oxymoron) even then it's sub par alone.

2. Only DKs and Temps have access to major mending, already if vigor didn't exist you put pressure on players to drop at least one class choice. Now you almost force players to be a temp or DK in order to heal. Limiting access to vigor doesn't hurt a temp or DK nearly as much as a sorc and NB.

3. PvE content, sure in groups that know what they are doing self heals are not necessary and sometimes frowned upon. Removing the abilities that allow for PUGs to compete (try going with a specialized build with a PUG and you won't survive), most people are already complaining about elitism, without such moves as vigor more class discrimination will happen (stam sorc gtfo etc...)

4. Vigor itself is not an issue at all. A 1k tick isn't saving anyone from 8k jabs. But when you stack major mending vitality malubeth minor forms and CPs with offensive hots (lookin at you Templars) THEN you get redonkulous heals. But Only temps and even more defensively specialized DKs can do this (only temps can do this and still have such high offensive capabilities) - this is also because you have at least 2 froms of heal buffs and only one form of health debuff

Im all for adding moves, especially to the magicka line. There clearly is not balance (though I have a hard time believing "balance" is a goal) but I am not for nerfing or removal of abilities. Upgrade the mage's guild line. Wtf is equilibrium? I mean Come On!

Absolutely agree. Leave vigor where it is, but buff magicka class or skill line heals... A good starting point is, Dragons Blood(!!!!) and yes, put a self/aoe heal in the mages skill line.

Lord-Otto · September 2016

Resto staff will almost always be a no-brainer choice for magicka builds. I mean, we got TWO mag-based weapons, so...
The problem with Vigor lies in how easy it is to get that strong tick. Just run around a corner with your Major Evasion buff or dodge once to evade all projectiles for two seconds. And throw in the actual Evasion to evade another second of punishment.

First of all, dodgeroll and Shuffle need to be adjusted, then you can re-evaluate Vigor.

Joy_Division · September 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

[

Magicka dks generally build tanky so duroks or fasalla is a pretty good setup for them; or they can run 1hd shield like damn near everyone of them runs in pvp. If you want to use dw I recommend fasalla or duroks.

Great, your mDK can put on a heal debuff. Go ahead and heal debuff me, I'll go AFK and get a sandwich, when I come back your DK might have me down to 50% health.

I spam dark flare every night in Cyrodiil. High weapon damage + vigor/rally is enough for players who know what they are doing to still heal through lots of incoming damage. To say nothing that vigor users themselves have access to heal debuffs so it's not like that's a weakness that is supposed to balance it Vs. mutagen.

Are you really trying to argue with me on this? At best you're going to heal for 4500 with Vigor, That's 2250 Heal over time with a heal debuff on ya....I'll give ya say 1250 on rally Extra....and i'm being generous there.... that's 3500 Heal you have to deal with....Are you telling me you can't outdamage that?

I can outdamage it because I'm not playing a gimped mDK class relying on stamina skills and a "burst" heal that is nearly equivalent to a single tick Vigor skill.

We aren't saying that Vigor makes stam builds unkillable. We are saying that when you compared the strength, flexibility, and utility of vigor to say, Dragon's Blood, Healing Ritual, Mutagen, Siphon Spirit, etc., and most of the magic oriented heals, the difference is too great.

High weapon damage + high crit + high damage burst + rally + vigor is a joke because stamina builds get this power while also getting to use the weapons and armor sets they want to use; they do not sacrifice their power to attack while attaining a high healing capacity. No other RPG or fantasy game has ever allowed such a combination of seal-healing and damage. That is why Cyrodiil is full of stam 2H, mageplars, an the occasional get-in-the-way-but-I-ignore magic dragonknights who sit there holding block.

OK stam people, if you want to keep that ridiculous power fine. But don't come on these forums and try to tell me that mutagen is just as good and complain that there are all these mageplars Jesus Beaming you at 100% health. Until there is a magicka-based equivalent that can combine the amount of damage, healing, and versatility that you all run around with (right now it's pretty much only templars), you going to keep getting Jesus Beamed and have to deal with BoL spam bc/ it's the pretty much the only magic spec that can compete.

DUTCH_REAPER · September 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

[

Magicka dks generally build tanky so duroks or fasalla is a pretty good setup for them; or they can run 1hd shield like damn near everyone of them runs in pvp. If you want to use dw I recommend fasalla or duroks.

Great, your mDK can put on a heal debuff. Go ahead and heal debuff me, I'll go AFK and get a sandwich, when I come back your DK might have me down to 50% health.

I spam dark flare every night in Cyrodiil. High weapon damage + vigor/rally is enough for players who know what they are doing to still heal through lots of incoming damage. To say nothing that vigor users themselves have access to heal debuffs so it's not like that's a weakness that is supposed to balance it Vs. mutagen.

Are you really trying to argue with me on this? At best you're going to heal for 4500 with Vigor, That's 2250 Heal over time with a heal debuff on ya....I'll give ya say 1250 on rally Extra....and i'm being generous there.... that's 3500 Heal you have to deal with....Are you telling me you can't outdamage that?

I can outdamage it because I'm not playing a gimped mDK class relying on stamina skills and a "burst" heal that is nearly equivalent to a single tick Vigor skill.

We aren't saying that Vigor makes stam builds unkillable. We are saying that when you compared the strength, flexibility, and utility of vigor to say, Dragon's Blood, Healing Ritual, Mutagen, Siphon Spirit, etc., and most of the magic oriented heals, the difference is too great.

High weapon damage + high crit + high damage burst + rally + vigor is a joke because stamina builds get this power while also getting to use the weapons and armor sets they want to use; they do not sacrifice their power to attack while attaining a high healing capacity. No other RPG or fantasy game has ever allowed such a combination of seal-healing and damage. That is why Cyrodiil is full of stam 2H, mageplars, an the occasional get-in-the-way-but-I-ignore magic dragonknights who sit there holding block.

OK stam people, if you want to keep that ridiculous power fine. But don't come on these forums and try to tell me that mutagen is just as good and complain that there are all these mageplars Jesus Beaming you at 100% health. Until there is a magicka-based equivalent that can combine the amount of damage, healing, and versatility that you all run around with (right now it's pretty much only templars), you going to keep getting Jesus Beamed and have to deal with BoL spam bc/ it's the pretty much the only magic spec that can compete.

Amen

WreckfulAbandon · September 2016

Vigor is strong but why do we have Vitality pots in the game? Why is Vitality even a thing? Don't we already have Mending as a heal buff?