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It's time to update Vigor
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.
Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:
Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec
This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.
There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.
Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.
Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.
Actually no, there are not that many variables.
Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.
"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".
Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.
My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.
but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument
There is nothing on that build that would favor my argument. I just logged into my heavy armor mDK i regularly pvp with and made a screenshot of the two tooltips, that's all. Unbuffed, right after logging in.
Don't you understand? Whether the rapid regen is weak or strong is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how it compares to the vigor with the same stats.
Regen value low? Sure, i could boost the regen with major mending - but that would boost the vigor as well. I could cast major sorcery to boost the regen - but i could also cast major brutality and boost vigor. Buffs are completely irrelevant, whats relevant is the fact that even for a magicka build (more spell damage than weapon damage, more max magicka than max stamina), vigor, with the same stats, is still 50% stronger than regen...
That means on a stamina build, vigor isn't even in the same galaxy as regen on a magicka build.
you can look at tooltips from your magdk all you want. What matters is the practical experience and what occurs. My last comment gave a simple illustration of how, practically speaking, rapid regen can get in the same ball park as vigor (about a 200-300 tick difference). Again, the tradeoff for the we will say 300 tick difference is the duration and cost of rapid regen which is lower.
Lets not forget that as a mag dk you have whip, embers, and aoe heal and healing ward. 3 of which are tied to dps abilities. Your stam counter part has rally and vigor which are not tied to dps attacks.0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭And yes making a magic morph of vigor WOULD give more class diversity because weapons would change significantly in PVP for mag users.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »So funny to see this game go full 180. Do you remember when stick and dress were the kings in PVP? Lol nobody used 2h It's a cycle I reckon. But it wasn't too long ago when Stam users had an overwhelming outcry on these forums for more damage, a Stam heal, making stamina weapons more viable in PVP etc etc.
Bottom line up front- leave vigor alone and make the other morph of it a magic user version. I mean it is in the Alliance War tree. We are talking about using it in PVP. So why shouldn't a magic version be available in the morph? If you say the resto blah blah blah please stop talking and sit this convo out. If you don't agree then you must be fearing my mDK because he will rock that skill like a boss and give all you Stam users the pain train.
I am firmly against players who ask for stam/mag morphs of everything. This game should not just be all skills seperated into stam and mag morphs. That is what kills diversity. This is why i am against stam whips or stam cripples or mag vigor or stam frags etc. If we did this for every popular ability you would see much less diversity than we have ever seen before. Theory crafting would be dead.
If you dont want to use a resto to heal than dont. Just realize your health sustain needs to come from somewhere. For mag builds this is easier because you have class abilities which wont tie you to a staff. This is the same for stam builds. if we want good healing sustained they are tied to a 2h for rally. Stam can not really really on class skills for healing. Vigor is a way to get around using 2h as a crutch much like mag users have class skills.
I too do not believe there should be a Stam mag morph for every skill. But we are not talking about ever skill. We are talking about a viable heal in PVP. Btw I am also the guy saying leave vigor alone and I play both mag and Stam characters. I am sick of the nerfing. But the other heal of vigor 99.9% of the time never gets used in PVP. So why not make it a magic morph?
I think that means it should be reworked to make the other morph more desirable. They are obviously targeting group play with it, so they should make a change to make it more appealing for group play. Much like they did with 2h executioner. No one used the other morph so they made it more desirable for killing multiple targets while makeing the other morph more viable for single target.0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.
Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:
Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec
This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.
There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.
Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.
Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.
Actually no, there are not that many variables.
Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.
"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".
Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.
My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.
but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument
There is nothing on that build that would favor my argument. I just logged into my heavy armor mDK i regularly pvp with and made a screenshot of the two tooltips, that's all. Unbuffed, right after logging in.
Don't you understand? Whether the rapid regen is weak or strong is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how it compares to the vigor with the same stats.
Regen value low? Sure, i could boost the regen with major mending - but that would boost the vigor as well. I could cast major sorcery to boost the regen - but i could also cast major brutality and boost vigor. Buffs are completely irrelevant, whats relevant is the fact that even for a magicka build (more spell damage than weapon damage, more max magicka than max stamina), vigor, with the same stats, is still 50% stronger than regen...
That means on a stamina build, vigor isn't even in the same galaxy as regen on a magicka build.
you can look at tooltips from your magdk all you want. What matters is the practical experience and what occurs. My last comment gave a simple illustration of how, practically speaking, rapid regen can get in the same ball park as vigor (about a 200-300 tick difference). Again, the tradeoff for the we will say 300 tick difference is the duration and cost of rapid regen which is lower.
Lets not forget that as a mag dk you have whip, embers, and aoe heal and healing ward. 3 of which are tied to dps abilities. Your stam counter part has rally and vigor which are not tied to dps attacks.
And the Stam can out heal the magic version. Both in a fight and out of a fight. J/s
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DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »So funny to see this game go full 180. Do you remember when stick and dress were the kings in PVP? Lol nobody used 2h It's a cycle I reckon. But it wasn't too long ago when Stam users had an overwhelming outcry on these forums for more damage, a Stam heal, making stamina weapons more viable in PVP etc etc.
Bottom line up front- leave vigor alone and make the other morph of it a magic user version. I mean it is in the Alliance War tree. We are talking about using it in PVP. So why shouldn't a magic version be available in the morph? If you say the resto blah blah blah please stop talking and sit this convo out. If you don't agree then you must be fearing my mDK because he will rock that skill like a boss and give all you Stam users the pain train.
I am firmly against players who ask for stam/mag morphs of everything. This game should not just be all skills seperated into stam and mag morphs. That is what kills diversity. This is why i am against stam whips or stam cripples or mag vigor or stam frags etc. If we did this for every popular ability you would see much less diversity than we have ever seen before. Theory crafting would be dead.
If you dont want to use a resto to heal than dont. Just realize your health sustain needs to come from somewhere. For mag builds this is easier because you have class abilities which wont tie you to a staff. This is the same for stam builds. if we want good healing sustained they are tied to a 2h for rally. Stam can not really really on class skills for healing. Vigor is a way to get around using 2h as a crutch much like mag users have class skills.
I too do not believe there should be a Stam mag morph for every skill. But we are not talking about ever skill. We are talking about a viable heal in PVP. Btw I am also the guy saying leave vigor alone and I play both mag and Stam characters. I am sick of the nerfing. But the other heal of vigor 99.9% of the time never gets used in PVP. So why not make it a magic morph?
I think that means it should be reworked to make the other morph more desirable. They are obviously targeting group play with it, so they should make a change to make it more appealing for group play. Much like they did with 2h executioner. No one used the other morph so they made it more desirable for killing multiple targets while makeing the other morph more viable for single target.
Bro. What is so wrong with changing the morph of vigor that no one uses to a magic morph? I have been yelling at the top of my lungs leave resolving vigor alone people! But make the other morph a magic version. I play all classes which I am sure you probably do as well. Magic users get the short end of the stick in PVP regarding heals.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.
Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:
Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec
This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.
There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.
Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.
Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.
Actually no, there are not that many variables.
Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.
"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".
Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.
My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.
but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument
There is nothing on that build that would favor my argument. I just logged into my heavy armor mDK i regularly pvp with and made a screenshot of the two tooltips, that's all. Unbuffed, right after logging in.
Don't you understand? Whether the rapid regen is weak or strong is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how it compares to the vigor with the same stats.
Regen value low? Sure, i could boost the regen with major mending - but that would boost the vigor as well. I could cast major sorcery to boost the regen - but i could also cast major brutality and boost vigor. Buffs are completely irrelevant, whats relevant is the fact that even for a magicka build (more spell damage than weapon damage, more max magicka than max stamina), vigor, with the same stats, is still 50% stronger than regen...
That means on a stamina build, vigor isn't even in the same galaxy as regen on a magicka build.
you can look at tooltips from your magdk all you want. What matters is the practical experience and what occurs. My last comment gave a simple illustration of how, practically speaking, rapid regen can get in the same ball park as vigor (about a 200-300 tick difference). Again, the tradeoff for the we will say 300 tick difference is the duration and cost of rapid regen which is lower.
Lets not forget that as a mag dk you have whip, embers, and aoe heal and healing ward. 3 of which are tied to dps abilities. Your stam counter part has rally and vigor which are not tied to dps attacks.
And the Stam can out heal the magic version. Both in a fight and out of a fight. J/s
I would disagree. Stam may seem that way because when a stam uses vigor they are dodgeing 20% of attacks, plus roll dodgeing to get to full health, plus using rally. Mag is typically in the fight dealing damage while healing. Because of this it seems like mag does not heal as well because you are constantly getting hit. Stam user is constantly avoding hits to get health back up.1 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.
Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:
Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec
This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.
There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.
Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.
Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.
Actually no, there are not that many variables.
Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.
"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".
Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.
My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.
but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument
There is nothing on that build that would favor my argument. I just logged into my heavy armor mDK i regularly pvp with and made a screenshot of the two tooltips, that's all. Unbuffed, right after logging in.
Don't you understand? Whether the rapid regen is weak or strong is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how it compares to the vigor with the same stats.
Regen value low? Sure, i could boost the regen with major mending - but that would boost the vigor as well. I could cast major sorcery to boost the regen - but i could also cast major brutality and boost vigor. Buffs are completely irrelevant, whats relevant is the fact that even for a magicka build (more spell damage than weapon damage, more max magicka than max stamina), vigor, with the same stats, is still 50% stronger than regen...
That means on a stamina build, vigor isn't even in the same galaxy as regen on a magicka build.
you can look at tooltips from your magdk all you want. What matters is the practical experience and what occurs. My last comment gave a simple illustration of how, practically speaking, rapid regen can get in the same ball park as vigor (about a 200-300 tick difference). Again, the tradeoff for the we will say 300 tick difference is the duration and cost of rapid regen which is lower.
Lets not forget that as a mag dk you have whip, embers, and aoe heal and healing ward. 3 of which are tied to dps abilities. Your stam counter part has rally and vigor which are not tied to dps attacks.
And the Stam can out heal the magic version. Both in a fight and out of a fight. J/s
I would disagree. Stam may seem that way because when a stam uses vigor they are dodgeing 20% of attacks, plus roll dodgeing to get to full health, plus using rally. Mag is typically in the fight dealing damage while healing. Because of this it seems like mag does not heal as well because you are constantly getting hit. Stam user is constantly avoding hits to get health back up.
That's a really good point and I agree to an extent. But it doesn't solve the "have a non weapon heal skill" as in can use any weapon you choose and slot a heal. Maybe the mag version shouldn't hit as hard as the resolving vigor then? I would jive with that.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »So funny to see this game go full 180. Do you remember when stick and dress were the kings in PVP? Lol nobody used 2h It's a cycle I reckon. But it wasn't too long ago when Stam users had an overwhelming outcry on these forums for more damage, a Stam heal, making stamina weapons more viable in PVP etc etc.
Bottom line up front- leave vigor alone and make the other morph of it a magic user version. I mean it is in the Alliance War tree. We are talking about using it in PVP. So why shouldn't a magic version be available in the morph? If you say the resto blah blah blah please stop talking and sit this convo out. If you don't agree then you must be fearing my mDK because he will rock that skill like a boss and give all you Stam users the pain train.
I am firmly against players who ask for stam/mag morphs of everything. This game should not just be all skills seperated into stam and mag morphs. That is what kills diversity. This is why i am against stam whips or stam cripples or mag vigor or stam frags etc. If we did this for every popular ability you would see much less diversity than we have ever seen before. Theory crafting would be dead.
If you dont want to use a resto to heal than dont. Just realize your health sustain needs to come from somewhere. For mag builds this is easier because you have class abilities which wont tie you to a staff. This is the same for stam builds. if we want good healing sustained they are tied to a 2h for rally. Stam can not really really on class skills for healing. Vigor is a way to get around using 2h as a crutch much like mag users have class skills.
I too do not believe there should be a Stam mag morph for every skill. But we are not talking about ever skill. We are talking about a viable heal in PVP. Btw I am also the guy saying leave vigor alone and I play both mag and Stam characters. I am sick of the nerfing. But the other heal of vigor 99.9% of the time never gets used in PVP. So why not make it a magic morph?
I think that means it should be reworked to make the other morph more desirable. They are obviously targeting group play with it, so they should make a change to make it more appealing for group play. Much like they did with 2h executioner. No one used the other morph so they made it more desirable for killing multiple targets while makeing the other morph more viable for single target.
Bro. What is so wrong with changing the morph of vigor that no one uses to a magic morph? I have been yelling at the top of my lungs leave resolving vigor alone people! But make the other morph a magic version. I play all classes which I am sure you probably do as well. Magic users get the short end of the stick in PVP regarding heals.
Because i dont want everyone running around with vigor. I want skills distinct to each style of play. I dont understand how you think mag lacks healing capabilities. Again, all classes have class heals in various forms plus resto line plus shields. Not to mention more utility.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same.
Keep in mind the following values are taken from the same character, which is a magicka DK:
Vigor heal 6402 health over 5 seconds, so 6402/5= 1280 HP/sec
Rapid regen heals 13872 health over 16.5 seconds, so 13872/16.5= 840 HP/sec
This is a magicka specced character, and vigor still ticks for 50% more than rapid regen.
There are so many variables to take into consideration here. One the fact that rapid regeneration is in stage one while vigor is in stage 2. Let us also not forget the resource difference. Vigor needs to be casted more often and has a higher cost. Rapid regen is a longer duration so less casts and a lower cost.
Additionally, it is not just about the raw heal. It is also about healing received and healing taken along with other healing buffs. Again, rapid regen can get to a similar healing number has vigor. But last longer which means more sustained healing, less cost, and the lack of casting it every 5 seconds allows for more dps or time to give other buffs.
Also, we know nothing about your stats. We don't even know if that is a buffed rapid regen or what not. In fact, the weakest rapid regen I have ever seen is 16k over that time so I really am curious about your build. Ofcourse some of it is the fact that rapid regen is lvl 1.
Actually no, there are not that many variables.
Stage 1 vs stage 2 is a 1% difference at best. The difference between vigor HPS and regen HPS is over 50% in favor of vigor- again, on a magicka character where regen should be strong and vigor weak due to stats.
"vigor needs to be cast more often" - The value of a heal lies in it's healing output(HPS), not how often you need to cast it. That's like saying BoL that heals for 15K instantly is a weaker heal than regen that heals for 20K over 20 seconds, because "you need to cast it more often".
Healing received and healing taken affect both heals equally, so this is a non-factor when comparing them. And no, rapid regen can not get to similar healing numbers(heal per second) as vigor, not even close.
My stats do not favor vigor at all - they are those of a magicka DK. I have more spell damage than weapon damage, and much higher max magicka than max stamina - and vigor still outperforms rapid regen, despite of that handicap. If that doesn't tell you how much more powerful vigor is compared to regen i don't know what will.
but the numbers you are using are scewed or your mag build needs work. That rapid regen is weak. Perhaps it is your build or your way of making the numbers favor your argument
There is nothing on that build that would favor my argument. I just logged into my heavy armor mDK i regularly pvp with and made a screenshot of the two tooltips, that's all. Unbuffed, right after logging in.
Don't you understand? Whether the rapid regen is weak or strong is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is how it compares to the vigor with the same stats.
Regen value low? Sure, i could boost the regen with major mending - but that would boost the vigor as well. I could cast major sorcery to boost the regen - but i could also cast major brutality and boost vigor. Buffs are completely irrelevant, whats relevant is the fact that even for a magicka build (more spell damage than weapon damage, more max magicka than max stamina), vigor, with the same stats, is still 50% stronger than regen...
That means on a stamina build, vigor isn't even in the same galaxy as regen on a magicka build.
you can look at tooltips from your magdk all you want. What matters is the practical experience and what occurs. My last comment gave a simple illustration of how, practically speaking, rapid regen can get in the same ball park as vigor (about a 200-300 tick difference). Again, the tradeoff for the we will say 300 tick difference is the duration and cost of rapid regen which is lower.
Lets not forget that as a mag dk you have whip, embers, and aoe heal and healing ward. 3 of which are tied to dps abilities. Your stam counter part has rally and vigor which are not tied to dps attacks.
And the Stam can out heal the magic version. Both in a fight and out of a fight. J/s
I would disagree. Stam may seem that way because when a stam uses vigor they are dodgeing 20% of attacks, plus roll dodgeing to get to full health, plus using rally. Mag is typically in the fight dealing damage while healing. Because of this it seems like mag does not heal as well because you are constantly getting hit. Stam user is constantly avoding hits to get health back up.
That's a really good point and I agree to an extent. But it doesn't solve the "have a non weapon heal skill" as in can use any weapon you choose and slot a heal. Maybe the mag version shouldn't hit as hard as the resolving vigor then? I would jive with that.
Again plenty of in class options that dont require a specific weapon plus la shield. also, to a much much lesser ectent but great for group is the purge heal in support line
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DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bro bro bro. Please don't. We were having such a great meaningful discussion. If you say I'm golden on mDK with regard to heals this convo is about to get really really ugly.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Because I play a mag DK in PVP 99% of the time. So now you know my pain.
Ya but mag dk problems is a class problem. Champ points ruined this class. It was built to out sustain others and widdle people down. This does not work in a system where champ points made resource managment irrelevant.
Mag dk do very well in non chap campaigns and still have a solid role in group play though. For 1vx and solo stuff it is just outmatched in all categories by others.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Bro bro bro. Please don't. We were having such a great meaningful discussion. If you say I'm golden on mDK with regard to heals this convo is about to get really really ugly.
I use dual sword and board for a lot of builds on my mag dk. I never have a problem with heals running around cause so many soures i can get it from. Problem for me is burst and not being able to kill others sustain because of current problems with cp0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »you can look at tooltips from your magdk all you want. What matters is the practical experience and what occurs.
The tooltips were taken straight out of the game. It does not get any more practical than that.
Vigor is 50% more powerful than regen even when the odds are heavily stacked against it (i have 30K magicka and just 18K stamina on that dk).0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »Bro bro bro. Please don't. We were having such a great meaningful discussion. If you say I'm golden on mDK with regard to heals this convo is about to get really really ugly.
I use dual sword and board for a lot of builds on my mag dk. I never have a problem with heals running around cause so many soures i can get it from. Problem for me is burst and not being able to kill others sustain because of current problems with cp
Yup...in order to leave the above convo pleasant I am stepping out now. If you truly did care about balance you would have rogered up and agreed with the healing issue for some magic classes in this awesome game. Goodbye Bow.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just realized why we see the discrepancy between your illustration and my tooltip, @bowmanz607
Your example:bowmanz607 wrote: »I ran Mutagen (weaker than rapid regen per tick) with low spell damage at 2k and low max mag at 35k and was getiing 1.7k crit heals per tick. You can easily get to 3k spell damage and 40k max mag plus use rapid regen to get that tick to at least 2k. Not to mention the cost is about 500 cheaper and has a 16 sec duration.
I ran vigor with 3500 weapon damage and 28k max stam and was getting 2.1k crit heals per tick. Roughly average numbers for people running vigor.
So again I say, you can get SIMILAR numbers (roughly 2.1k on avg for vigor and roughly 1.9k on avg for rapid regen),
The reason why you think vigor can get similar numbers as regen is simple. You are only looking at per-tick values, but vigor ticks twice as fast as regen does.
Using your example, in the same time rapid regen ticks once for 1.9k, vigor ticks twice for 2.1k, or 4.2k. That is much more in line with what my tooltip has shown. My tooltip shows that on a magicka build, vigor is 50% stronger than regen. From your example, on a stamina build, vigor is 100% better than regen is on magicka build.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just realized why we see the discrepancy between your illustration and my tooltip, @bowmanz607
Your example:bowmanz607 wrote: »I ran Mutagen (weaker than rapid regen per tick) with low spell damage at 2k and low max mag at 35k and was getiing 1.7k crit heals per tick. You can easily get to 3k spell damage and 40k max mag plus use rapid regen to get that tick to at least 2k. Not to mention the cost is about 500 cheaper and has a 16 sec duration.
I ran vigor with 3500 weapon damage and 28k max stam and was getting 2.1k crit heals per tick. Roughly average numbers for people running vigor.
So again I say, you can get SIMILAR numbers (roughly 2.1k on avg for vigor and roughly 1.9k on avg for rapid regen),
The reason why you think vigor can get similar numbers as regen is simple. You are only looking at per-tick values, but vigor ticks twice as fast as regen does.
Using your example, in the same time rapid regen ticks once for 1.9k, vigor ticks twice for 2.1k, or 4.2k. That is much more in line with what my tooltip has shown. My tooltip shows that on a magicka build, vigor is 50% stronger than regen. From your example, on a stamina build, vigor is 100% better than regen is on magicka build.
Hmmm I think you are right there. I believe vigor does tick faster, but I don't think it ticks twice as fast if I recall correctly, but not home anymore so can not check that.
Perhas a tick change is in order for one of the two?
That said, I still stand by mag having heals that compete with stam heals in their own way. For one you can combine more heals together. Healing ward and rally operate similarly. The occasional miss shield does suck at times but it still provides a shield and a heal after a short duration whereas rally provides you with the heal after a much longer time. Plus mag have use of dps abilities that double as heals. Such as crit surge, swallow soul, exchange, whip, breath, embers, sap, ext3nded ritual or whatever it is called, as well as various Ults and passives.
I would like to see an overhaul to resto/desto line which was hinted at after they made Stam changes and in a post by wrobel. This will solves many issues that people have without nerfing others.
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bryanhaas✭✭✭✭Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.
ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.
I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.
TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.
@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.
I have main'd a mag sorc since console release, vigor is fine as is leave it be.PS4 NA AD GM formerly known as GM of "The Children of the Void"
9 trait crafter I do all the things (Yes I mean ALL the things ;0).
Price list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTV7ACtmEpQQwsEiHVcrBxC0zKaj6LKvc3An7dGG2t0/edit?usp=sharing
Youtube: MaulochBaal https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRav05_8nWGvlTrfBBefaEw/featured0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.
ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.
I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.
TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.
@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.
I have main'd a mag sorc since console release, vigor is fine as is leave it be.
Cool story @bryanhaas, glad you're so in love with resto staff. I'd like to be able to build my magsorc with s/b back bar but can't because all other viable heals require constant offensive uptime.0 -
bryanhaas✭✭✭✭Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.
ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.
I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.
TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.
@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.
I have main'd a mag sorc since console release, vigor is fine as is leave it be.
Cool story @bryanhaas, glad you're so in love with resto staff. I'd like to be able to build my magsorc with s/b back bar but can't because all other viable heals require constant offensive uptime.
I don't use resto, sorry missed where I said I did but if you could enlighten me then that would be great. Dual wield and lightning staff btw.PS4 NA AD GM formerly known as GM of "The Children of the Void"
9 trait crafter I do all the things (Yes I mean ALL the things ;0).
Price list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTV7ACtmEpQQwsEiHVcrBxC0zKaj6LKvc3An7dGG2t0/edit?usp=sharing
Youtube: MaulochBaal https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRav05_8nWGvlTrfBBefaEw/featured0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.
ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.
I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.
TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.
@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.
I have main'd a mag sorc since console release, vigor is fine as is leave it be.
Cool story @bryanhaas, glad you're so in love with resto staff. I'd like to be able to build my magsorc with s/b back bar but can't because all other viable heals require constant offensive uptime.
And vigor alone is not enough. Dodge and rally. If vigor was enough alone you would see a lot less 2h. Stam is tied to 2h just as mag is generally tied to resto. Besides as a mag sorc you have crit surge and Dark deal along with shields for survivability if you so choose to not use resto. Stam has vigor and shuffle if not use 2h.2 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user Resto staff user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same. Plus you know mag user have a whOle resto line. Oh let's not forget that mag users have class abilities.
Mag blade have swallow soul which not only gives] 8%healing received (4 with BS) but an additional 4% for slotting it (2 with BS)and 8% max mag while ticking for about the same as vigor while doing dps. (But you need an objective to make it work... against siege engienes is useless)
Mag dk have whip (which requires an off balance enemy to procs) and the healing dot (burning embers, and it only heals if recasted or after the DoT has ended) which name escapes me right now along with an AOE heal in groups (which is also one of the most expensive skills of the class)
Mag templars. Well do I have to explain what they have.
Mag sorc has dark deal and crit heals. Not to mention shields
Speaking of shields, all mag classes have them. (Stamina also has them, but vigor/shuffle is way better)
Stop acting like mag is gimp without it. There is plenty of healing to choose from in mag lines. Many of which are any where from approximately as strong as vigor or better than it.
Well, it seems you have never played a magicka class, isn't it?
Edited by Xvorg on August 29, 2016 8:18PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »Ummm hmmmm. Mag user Resto staff user has rapid regeneration which can tick for about the same. Plus you know mag user have a whOle resto line. Oh let's not forget that mag users have class abilities.
Mag blade have swallow soul which not only gives] 8%healing received (4 with BS) but an additional 4% for slotting it (2 with BS)and 8% max mag while ticking for about the same as vigor while doing dps. (But you need an objective to make it work... against siege engienes is useless)
Mag dk have whip (which requires an off balance enemy to procs) and the healing dot (burning embers, and it only heals if recasted or after the DoT has ended) which name escapes me right now along with an AOE heal in groups (which is also one of the most expensive skills of the class)
Mag templars. Well do I have to explain what they have.
Mag sorc has dark deal and crit heals. Not to mention shields
Speaking of shields, all mag classes have them. (Stamina also has them, but vigor/shuffle is way better)
Stop acting like mag is gimp without it. There is plenty of healing to choose from in mag lines. Many of which are any where from approximately as strong as vigor or better than it.
Well, it seems you have never played a magicka class, isn't it?
I know them quite well actually. I don't stick simply to fotm meta or builds and switch it up all the time.
I said mag over resto b/c 90% of people that run mag and are not a templar use resto staff. Sam goes for Stam and 2h.
I also did not find it necessary to explain BS. Not to mention, swallow soul still ticks very high in pvp while causing damage.
I also didn't feel it necessary to explain how each skill operates for a dk cause I figure people know it. My point is to establish all of the outside heals that do not require a particular weapon. I can not speak for you but the tools that a dk has for healing have always been a nought for me. That is not where I find the class to be gimped at all. Perhaps just different experieneces.
I know the classes and stam/mag well.
I do think that there are problems with some mag in some areas. However, not where some seem to think. For instance, mag sorc needs some love but not b/c of shield changes. That was fine. They lack in other areas. Some of this is tied to the fact they want to make pets viable which leaves multiple useless skill. Part of the reason is some skills that are just avoided and need to be reworked. Mag sorc builds are all the same because many skills are useless.
Mag dk healing is fine, but they lack burst and execute and underperforming unless they are in a group. The playstyle a dk was built for is no longer viable with cp. Hopefully an adjustment to desto staff will help them out.
I also think that the resto line is overall 7nderwhelming from passives to multiple abilities. Desto is trash.
Notice most stam. Builds thrive because they have better weapon options also.
Ya sure stam has shields if you build a tank because it all com3s from health. If you are going to point to that for Stam then I point to dragon blood for your mag dk and we all know how that is without a health build.0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vigor has absolutely zero to do with Stamina being powerful in PvP right now..
I completely disagree. The ability to get from near execute range to full HP by casting vigor and rolling twice is the primary reason why stamina builds are so powerful. Right now, they can easily negate any damage that does not kill them in 2 seconds, which allows them to stay continually on the offensive.
Without vigor, any pure damage focused stam build would be forced to retreat if he failed to kill his target fast. If that wouldn't make him less powerful then i don't know what would.
If someone is getting from execute range to full HP by casting Vigor and rolling twice, You're not using a Healing Debuff.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vigor has absolutely zero to do with Stamina being powerful in PvP right now..
I completely disagree. The ability to get from near execute range to full HP by casting vigor and rolling twice is the primary reason why stamina builds are so powerful. Right now, they can easily negate any damage that does not kill them in 2 seconds, which allows them to stay continually on the offensive.
Without vigor, any pure damage focused stam build would be forced to retreat if he failed to kill his target fast. If that wouldn't make him less powerful then i don't know what would.
If someone is getting from execute range to full HP by casting Vigor and rolling twice, You're not using a Healing Debuff.
Right. Next time i am fighting a stamina NB, i'm just gonna keep dropping dragonknight standards on him everytime he cast vigor.2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LOL at the stam players complaining they have to slot a 2H to use rally and that mutagen is comparable to vigor. You want to use the 2H for it's offensive capabilities and you have 100% freedom for your builds while slotting vigor while a resto staff user has to equip the worst weapon in the game that has zero offensive capabilities, ruins your set piece bonus, all for a heal that is not even guaranteed to hit the user.
Look, I get it, you don't want to lose vigor because it is good, convenient, and versatile. But it's a joke to look a cyrodiil, see all these 2H+ bow builds with high damage, high burst, high healing, high damage avoidance, and say with a straight face that mutagen is comparable.
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.4 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »LOL at the stam players complaining they have to slot a 2H to use rally and that mutagen is comparable to vigor. You want to use the 2H for it's offensive capabilities and you have 100% freedom for your builds while slotting vigor while a resto staff user has to equip the worst weapon in the game that has zero offensive capabilities, ruins your set piece bonus, all for a heal that is not even guaranteed to hit the user.
Look, I get it, you don't want to lose vigor because it is good, convenient, and versatile. But it's a joke to look a cyrodiil, see all these 2H+ bow builds with high damage, high burst, high healing, high damage avoidance, and say with a straight face that mutagen is comparable.
Not a vigor issue though. It is a cp issue. If a player runs vigor alone that won't do much. Again, class skills heal too which don't require a weapon.0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vigor should not be compared to rapid regen. They are different skills completely.
If you can't out dps 10k healing over 5 seconds your bad. If you're complaining bc they roll dodge while doing it then your forgetting that to do that healing they are spending way more stamina then the tooltip and are also not attacking you.0 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭puffytheslayer wrote: »if vigour scaled with health people would complain about max health sunshield maulbeth TankLars.... EVEN more than they already do!
It wouldn't change much. It's a 50-60k health build that uses magicka to cast blazing shield and stam for cc break and the occasional absorb magick.
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Daveheart✭✭✭✭Here's rapid Regen:
And here's Vigor:
Just to settle the "which ticks faster?" question, vigor ticks faster.
*Edited because I'm a *** and was just looking at the milliseconds or something.Edited by Daveheart on August 30, 2016 1:48PMDaggerfall Covenant (PC-NA)
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