kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is not balanced the problem is perspective people want to have a mage with 45K magic 18K help with next to no physical resistance and want to say that then you die fast without a shield.

How about a heavy armor s/s DK with 30K physical resistance still dying fast despite holding block and spamming dragon blood?

Fear -> instant 7500 incap strike+3500 SA+ 2000 LA, followed by ~3000 poison injection ticks, ~2000 heavy weapon bleed ticks, 1000+ rearming trap DOT...

Still a perspective problem?

Well yea you are not putting up any pressure so they can unload on you and your perspective is that you have 30k but -5000 Armor resistance the CP star no one gets I have, sharpened bow or Twohanded -5120, Mark Target -5120 and I use a Hammer over an Axe the bleed is great but that 20% is good vs Tanky players where the bleed is not.

So in a normal fight I will cut 15k physical resistance and hit you with a -15% damage done with Heroic Slash and 30% healing debuff with Reverberating Bash you have half the resistance you thought you had. Less damage and weaker healer and I will just bit my time and CC you every five seconds to kill your stamina making you drop block.

From your view this makes stamina OP but my mages, I have 4 one of each class all do the same 15k resistance cut and all have a CC that's used every 5-6 seconds all drop a damage AND healing debuff. Everyone of my mages run restro/destro. You're like a guy with a shotgun wanting the range and power of an assault rifle, use what you have to it's max and let the other guy do the same.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Now I'm no min/mazer from my stats cause well I only play Argonians but. My Mage DK has 5 Ice Furnace, 5 Julianos and 1 Kena 27k health and magic 2k spell damage and recovery. I use volatile armor to buff my resistance and is a Melee damage returner. Green Blood to buff healing 12% from burning heart passive. Now I root with Frost Reach > Chains > Cloking Talons (damage debuff) > Volatile > Frost Reach > Wall of Frost > Obsidian Shard (trash damage but good heal and CC combo) and the Almighty whip spam. I root lock AND hard CC while attacking Elemental Drain and full heavy attacks are mix in but I do great on my Mage cause I looked at what he could do and focused on that.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

With my Debuffs your "Tank" would have 8k resistance. You need to think outside the box. Test drive the CP Stars you never used. You can take and add resistance in the CP system YOU choose not to, you can take and add resistance with traits like Sharpened and Defending YOU choose not to you can add and take minor and major resistance buffs but guess what you don't.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Now I'm no min/mazer from my stats cause well I only play Argonians but. My Mage DK has 5 Ice Furnace, 5 Julianos and 1 Kena 27k health and magic 2k spell damage and recovery. I use volatile armor to buff my resistance and is a Melee damage returner. Green Blood to buff healing 12% from burning heart passive. Now I root with Frost Reach > Chains > Cloking Talons (damage debuff) > Volatile > Frost Reach > Wall of Frost > Obsidian Shard (trash damage but good heal and CC combo) and the Almighty whip spam. I root lock AND hard CC while attacking Elemental Drain and full heavy attacks are mix in but I do great on my Mage cause I looked at what he could do and focused on that.

Against a stam build using the latest meta, the fight would go like this: you eat a poison injection and a heavy attack from stealth, followed by a crit rush, and all 3 will connect at more or less the same time due to travel time. Follows a fear and incap strike/SA/light attack which you have no way to avoid/block because breaking fear is slow. Next comes rearming trap. Now you are sitting at 30% HP, and have 2K+ poison injection ticking on you, 2k+ heavy weapon bleed ticking on you, and are rooted by trap that is ticking for 1K.

You have no time for frost reach/chains/talons, because you are about to croak in the next 2 seconds. The only thing that will save you is bringing your HP back above execute range before those poison injection ticks increase to 3K, and that means blocking and spamming whatever heal you have available. You may be able to fit a fossilize in there somewhere, but that's about it. If you manage to do that, then you can start thinking about going on the offensive.

If you are capable of doing frost reach/chains/talons right after enemy alpha strike without healing yourself first, then your opponent simply isn't very good (to put it mildly).

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

With my Debuffs your "Tank" would have 8k resistance. You need to think outside the box. Test drive the CP Stars you never used. You can take and add resistance in the CP system YOU choose not to, you can take and add resistance with traits like Sharpened and Defending YOU choose not to you can add and take minor and major resistance buffs but guess what you don't.

Your assumptions are incorrect. My CP are specialized against physical damage, with 21% mitigation from hardy. I am using a defending sword on the offbar. And I've been playing a heavy armor mDK for over a year now, so i know what volatile armor is, thank you very much.

I started this game as an Assassin/ganker so I know what counters a good gank have tried CC breaking, rolling then hitting a purge? You sound like you dead to the same opening burst.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Purge take away two effects per cast and cut the effects of the remaining one in half for 6 seconds. I personally take that over removing none and reducing none. Have you played around with Spectre's Eye it gives you a free 20% miss chance when you cast a spell that cost magic for 3 seconds and it has a 6 second cool down so you have a free miss chance 50% of the time.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surviving a gank can be hard but I have done with tanks, rogues and mages so time I win sometimes I get ganked it happens. Don't mean you can find a way to live next time.

Sharee wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Purge take away two effects per cast and cut the effects of the remaining one in half for 6 seconds. I personally take that over removing none and reducing none. Have you played around with Spectre's Eye it gives you a free 20% miss chance when you cast a spell that cost magic for 3 seconds and it has a 6 second cool down so you have a free miss chance 50% of the time.

An average 10% dodge chance chance is not worth a 5-piece set bonus when every stam build is running around with a permanent 20% chance. And yes, i have played with it. Just like i have played with about every other set that seemed at least semi-viable. Nothing beats kags for heavy armor mDK, except for zergy keep siege situations where reactive armor/fasalla performs better (because your only goal is survival and applying AOE CC/debuffing, your damage output does not matter since your zerg is doing the killing)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surviving a gank can be hard but I have done with tanks, rogues and mages so time I win sometimes I get ganked it happens. Don't mean you can find a way to live next time.

The problem is that against this particular build, there is no "i win sometimes"(as a mDK). You can win sometimes against a gank, yes, but only if you get attacked by a non-meta ganker. There is a world of difference between the damage output of a regular stam character, and one using every current meta cheese available to him.

This whole conversation is giving me the impression that you simply are not facing opponents that go all the way to their full potential. I mean, your attack sequence: frost reach? against a stam NB who is standing in your face? why? The damage isn't that great, and while it has root, you are going to hit him with choking talons next anyway. Then "chains". I can only hope you mean the gap closer morph, because the only thing that a pull from melee range would achieve is giving him free CC immunity. The gap closer at least has empower on it... but then you are casting choking talons next? A physical damage ability that is useless for damage dealing and only good for root/ damage debuff? Why are you empowering that?

The only way your sequence makes sense is: your ganker is not in melee range. Then it makes sense to use a long range root, pull him to you, and apply a debuff. But that means your "ganker" is a newbie who just sits at max range and plinks you with his bow. Those are not the ones i am talking about.

Cronopoly wrote: »

OT:
Can we all remember the possibilities years ago saying What if Skyrim was made into a MMO, Wow I'd buy that... Now blink forward, is this what we envisioned? Good or bad? Can we see any passion for that vision in a delivered product? Open question as obviously it's a highly leading question to begin with.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Purge take away two effects per cast and cut the effects of the remaining one in half for 6 seconds. I personally take that over removing none and reducing none. Have you played around with Spectre's Eye it gives you a free 20% miss chance when you cast a spell that cost magic for 3 seconds and it has a 6 second cool down so you have a free miss chance 50% of the time.

An average 10% dodge chance chance is not worth a 5-piece set bonus when every stam build is running around with a permanent 20% chance. And yes, i have played with it. Just like i have played with about every other set that seemed at least semi-viable. Nothing beats kags for heavy armor mDK, except for zergy keep siege situations where reactive armor/fasalla performs better (because your only goal is survival and applying AOE CC/debuffing, your damage output does not matter since your zerg is doing the killing)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surviving a gank can be hard but I have done with tanks, rogues and mages so time I win sometimes I get ganked it happens. Don't mean you can find a way to live next time.

The problem is that against this particular build, there is no "i win sometimes"(as a mDK). You can win sometimes against a gank, yes, but only if you get attacked by a non-meta ganker. There is a world of difference between the damage output of a regular stam character, and one using every current meta cheese available to him.

This whole conversation is giving me the impression that you simply are not facing opponents that go all the way to their full potential. I mean, your attack sequence: frost reach? against a stam NB who is standing in your face? why? The damage isn't that great, and while it has root, you are going to hit him with choking talons next anyway. Then "chains". I can only hope you mean the gap closer morph, because the only thing that a pull from melee range would achieve is giving him free CC immunity. The gap closer at least has empower on it... but then you are casting choking talons next? A physical damage ability that is useless for damage dealing and only good for root/ damage debuff? Why are you empowering that?

The only way your sequence makes sense is: your ganker is not in melee range. Then it makes sense to use a long range root, pull him to you, and apply a debuff. But that means your "ganker" is a newbie who just sits at max range and plinks you with his bow. Those are not the ones i am talking about.

Dude the Bow heavy attack > Poison Injection > Axe Crit Charge > Reverse Slice it gives you little time to react but when you can that's what you have to do to live. Ganker are VERY burst loaded Kena 2 piece, Cleaver 5 and Agility all weapon damage enchants most times. So you root them they will roll the first 2-3 Frost Reach is a long range DoT not the most power but still good it roots when they are not in melee range. Talon is a root yes but I use it for the damage debuff. I can't outburst a ganker on a mage DK but I can outlast them and force them to kill there stamina.

Nearly all ganker run if they can't kill you in a few seconds cause they run max stamina food for more power over regen drinks and have weapon damage, weapon crit and max stamina in their 2-4 set bonus so they just have base recovery. You Frost reach melee or ranged cause it's still damage and you need to lean on a ganker hard cut the damage when ever you can and chains cause they start to run at this point pop a det pot and run them down.

If you don't gank it's hard to understand any of this cause a simple root and and few DoTs would not spell the end for you but you can't roll DoT ticks and when you can only go hard core cause of Kena or Cleaver or both and you are looking at a cooldown and complete loss of resources. Normally fighting rules don't apply in a gank you are not buffed up they see you long before you see them but they are also build to gank not a stand and fight they have no staying power.

Spectre's Eye gives you 20% miss chance for 3 seconds with a 6 second cooldown so it's up literally 50% of the time and the 2-4 piece bonus is great for heavy mages.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

The problems with the game are way too far along to be easily fixed.

1) Healing is way too strong so the only way to kill many players is to burst them down inside of a very small time frame. Even stamina-based heals are way OP. Major Mending's huge buff and CP (see #4) only make this problem all the worse.

2) Power creep is becoming stupidly excessive and stacking weapon damage, in particular, is almost too easy at this point. Even defensive sets like Black Rose and Kagrenac's have a weapon and/or spell damage component. There is a difference between new items adding more variety and simply making them outright better. I understand that ZOS is a business and players always need a better carrot to chase but how about offering an apple instead of just bigger carrots than last time?

3) Item sets are getting out of control. Whereas a 5-piece set bonus used to be reduced costs by 8%, now it is that PLUS Major Expedition AND, of course, weapon damage. Do we really need all that? Some of the new sets are creative and diversify builds but many of them are just examples of excessive power creep (see #2). ZOS needs to rethink how new sets are being added to the game. Instead of adding more bonuses, how about adding new mechanics like group bonuses (the more players in your group wearing the same set the more powerful the bonus) or even 7 or 10 piece items sets (or new 7/10 piece bonuses for existing sets, just limit where the jewelry drops).

4) Champion Points have made builds far too strong and even though there is a non-CP campaign they need to be scaled down, especially as the CP cap continues to increase. At this point I'd even be fine with a linear system that scales up from 0-10%, increasing by 0.1% for each point invested. Defensive boosts could be higher due to penetration values but many of these CP need to be halved if not reduced further. As we approach 561 CP this problem only continues to get worse over time.

5) Sustain is way too high and I'm not talking about regen only. Currently there are far too many ways to regain resources and while some of this is skilled play using heavy weaving, most of it is item set related (see #3 & 4). Reducing resource gain would put burst builds at a disadvantage if they fail to kill the target and also promote sustained damage builds. CP are a bit too strong for sustain as well (see #4).

6) Do max magicka and stamina pools really need to increase damage directly? In old-school RPGs/MMOs you had one stat to govern the size of your resource pool and another to govern its damage. As has been demonstrated by the Necropotence set, you can mostly neglect spell damage if you can get a high enough max magicka pool. The point being that if ZOS separated max magicka/stamina from spell/weapon damage you would see builds using smaller resource pools in order to maximize damage and this would make sustain more important (see #5).

7) And lastly burst damage is way too high. This is more of a symptom of the above conditions but we all know the difference between stacking DoTs and timing an execute/finisher or dealing sustained damage to wear down an opponent's resources versus the current burst meta where you can be killed in just a few seconds. Hopefully the other issues resolve this as well but for now burst damage is a huge issue.

__________

Please note that I am in no way an expert at ESO but even a normal player like me can see how arguing over stamina versus magicka is just a fool's errand.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

The problems with the game are way too far along to be easily fixed.

1) Healing is way too strong so the only way to kill many players is to burst them down inside of a very small time frame. Even stamina-based heals are way OP. Major Mending's huge buff and CP (see #4) only make this problem all the worse.

2) Power creep is becoming stupidly excessive and stacking weapon damage, in particular, is almost too easy at this point. Even defensive sets like Black Rose and Kagrenac's have a weapon and/or spell damage component. There is a difference between new items adding more variety and simply making them outright better. I understand that ZOS is a business and players always need a better carrot to chase but how about offering an apple instead of just bigger carrots than last time?

3) Item sets are getting out of control. Whereas a 5-piece set bonus used to be reduced costs by 8%, now it is that PLUS Major Expedition AND, of course, weapon damage. Do we really need all that? Some of the new sets are creative and diversify builds but many of them are just examples of excessive power creep (see #2). ZOS needs to rethink how new sets are being added to the game. Instead of adding more bonuses, how about adding new mechanics like group bonuses (the more players in your group wearing the same set the more powerful the bonus) or even 7 or 10 piece items sets (or new 7/10 piece bonuses for existing sets, just limit where the jewelry drops).

4) Champion Points have made builds far too strong and even though there is a non-CP campaign they need to be scaled down, especially as the CP cap continues to increase. At this point I'd even be fine with a linear system that scales up from 0-10%, increasing by 0.1% for each point invested. Defensive boosts could be higher due to penetration values but many of these CP need to be halved if not reduced further. As we approach 561 CP this problem only continues to get worse over time.

5) Sustain is way too high and I'm not talking about regen only. Currently there are far too many ways to regain resources and while some of this is skilled play using heavy weaving, most of it is item set related (see #3 & 4). Reducing resource gain would put burst builds at a disadvantage if they fail to kill the target and also promote sustained damage builds. CP are a bit too strong for sustain as well (see #4).

6) Do max magicka and stamina pools really need to increase damage directly? In old-school RPGs/MMOs you had one stat to govern the size of your resource pool and another to govern its damage. As has been demonstrated by the Necropotence set, you can mostly neglect spell damage if you can get a high enough max magicka pool. The point being that if ZOS separated max magicka/stamina from spell/weapon damage you would see builds using smaller resource pools in order to maximize damage and this would make sustain more important (see #5).

7) And lastly burst damage is way too high. This is more of a symptom of the above conditions but we all know the difference between stacking DoTs and timing an execute/finisher or dealing sustained damage to wear down an opponent's resources versus the current burst meta where you can be killed in just a few seconds. Hopefully the other issues resolve this as well but for now burst damage is a huge issue.

__________

Please note that I am in no way an expert at ESO but even a normal player like me can see how arguing over stamina versus magicka is just a fool's errand.

Burst damage and overpowered healing are definitely conjoined twins here. One makes the other necessary. I'd love to be able to balance both out, and some of your suggestions make sense.

What probably needs to be done is for ZOS to have one person dedicated to each style of gameplay (melee stamina, melee magicka (lol), ranged stamina, and ranged magicka) to be their advocate and to take their suggestions and gripes back to the dev team. Also somebody for each class. They also would need to be active on the forum. I doubt it happens, but it would be nice to at least know your voice would be heard.

I complete agree that burst damage is related to healing, which is why I specfiically noted it in #1. My point is that fixing healing will only make burst damage all the more OP so it's not like you can pick a couple of things from my list and expect the rest to fix themsevles.

For example, if you reduce healing bonuses, you now need to reduce burst potential. So do you separate resource pools from damage, nerf item set bonuses, lower CP bonuses, etc? The answer is actually all of them and that is no easy task.

I think a starting point would be to drop down major bonuses and CP from ~25% to 10-15% as this would affect everything at once. Next evaluate how to separate max resource pools from damage. Then add in 7 piece item bonuses and rework the slightly OP 5 piece bonuses (shift OP bonuses to 6/7). Check sustain and burst versus healing and if good consider adding 10 piece ultimate set bonuses. It's now 2018.

Sharee wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Purge take away two effects per cast and cut the effects of the remaining one in half for 6 seconds. I personally take that over removing none and reducing none. Have you played around with Spectre's Eye it gives you a free 20% miss chance when you cast a spell that cost magic for 3 seconds and it has a 6 second cool down so you have a free miss chance 50% of the time.

An average 10% dodge chance chance is not worth a 5-piece set bonus when every stam build is running around with a permanent 20% chance. And yes, i have played with it. Just like i have played with about every other set that seemed at least semi-viable. Nothing beats kags for heavy armor mDK, except for zergy keep siege situations where reactive armor/fasalla performs better (because your only goal is survival and applying AOE CC/debuffing, your damage output does not matter since your zerg is doing the killing)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surviving a gank can be hard but I have done with tanks, rogues and mages so time I win sometimes I get ganked it happens. Don't mean you can find a way to live next time.

The problem is that against this particular build, there is no "i win sometimes"(as a mDK). You can win sometimes against a gank, yes, but only if you get attacked by a non-meta ganker. There is a world of difference between the damage output of a regular stam character, and one using every current meta cheese available to him.

This whole conversation is giving me the impression that you simply are not facing opponents that go all the way to their full potential. I mean, your attack sequence: frost reach? against a stam NB who is standing in your face? why? The damage isn't that great, and while it has root, you are going to hit him with choking talons next anyway. Then "chains". I can only hope you mean the gap closer morph, because the only thing that a pull from melee range would achieve is giving him free CC immunity. The gap closer at least has empower on it... but then you are casting choking talons next? A physical damage ability that is useless for damage dealing and only good for root/ damage debuff? Why are you empowering that?

The only way your sequence makes sense is: your ganker is not in melee range. Then it makes sense to use a long range root, pull him to you, and apply a debuff. But that means your "ganker" is a newbie who just sits at max range and plinks you with his bow. Those are not the ones i am talking about.