Apologizing to ZOS after being educated from ESO LIVE 8/12

Thealteregoroman · August 2016

I apologize for assuming a bug and updates are "easy" to fix. This ESO Live has educated me more about the process and what it takes to get stuff done. In the future I HOPE some of the ESO RAGE COMMUNITY on this forum helps make this process easier for the developers.........

CORRECTION: I was apologizing for some of the nasty things said by people on this Forum that was purely rage based. NOW EDUCATED........do your views change towards ZOS?

DO you apologize for some of the rage comments you may have left on the forum??

ADarklore · August 2016

I never left rage comments because I understand how difficult it is to track down bugs through thousands of miles of code... so I think you forgot a fourth option... "I already understood how difficult their job was and so I never left rage comments against ZOS".

Cazzy · August 2016

If my boyfriend messed up and tried to apologise through a poll, I'd probably be even more upset! xD

TequilaFire · August 2016

However, it is not difficult to disable or remove a bugged item like an armor set till it is fixed.

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

Cazzy wrote: »

If my boyfriend messed up and tried to apologise through a poll, I'd probably be even more upset! xD

Nerf Polls

Daemons_Bane · August 2016

I took the "don't apologize" option, since we miss the one @ADarklore already mentioned

I don't know how fixing this stuff works, so I wait it out and let them do their job

I am sure they are doing their very best, so I try and be supportive

Thealteregoroman · August 2016

[quote="Daemons_Bane;3260884"]I took the "don't apologize" option, since we miss the one @ADarklore already mentioned

I don't know how fixing this stuff works, so I wait it out and let them do their job

I am sure they are doing their very best, so I try and be supportive[/quote]

huh?

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

I've never raged so no need for apologies . I will say this howevers , if ZOS took more time with quality control instead of content pushes they would not be finding themselves in the predicament so often an requiring explanations on Internet tv .

ADarklore · August 2016

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

I took the "don't apologize" option, since we miss the one @ADarklore already mentioned I don't know how fixing this stuff works, so I wait it out and let them do their job I am sure they are doing their very best, so I try and be supportive

huh?

It made sense to me.

starkerealm · August 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I've never raged so no need for apologies . I will say this howevers , if ZOS took more time with quality control instead of content pushes they would not be finding themselves in the predicament so often an requiring explanations on Internet tv .

That's where I'm at. I mean, I've got an Associates Degree in programming, I've got a pretty solid idea of how much of a pain in the *** debugging can be. For a massive project, like a live MMO, I have no illusions about how complicated these issues can get.

Rylana · August 2016

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I've never raged so no need for apologies . I will say this howevers , if ZOS took more time with quality control instead of content pushes they would not be finding themselves in the predicament so often an requiring explanations on Internet tv .

That's where I'm at. I mean, I've got an Associates Degree in programming, I've got a pretty solid idea of how much of a pain in the *** debugging can be. For a massive project, like a live MMO, I have no illusions about how complicated these issues can get.

Exactly so in being careful and really using that information on test center players always giving for free , they could avoid bad disruptions on live servers . We've said it a million times already ..."we reported this bug on PTS months ago" .

Daemons_Bane · August 2016

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

[quote="Daemons_Bane;3260884"]I took the "don't apologize" option, since we miss the one @ADarklore already mentioned I don't know how fixing this stuff works, so I wait it out and let them do their job I am sure they are doing their very best, so I try and be supportive

huh?[/quote]

There are not enough options on the poll.. simple

Kalante · August 2016

Nope. Inexcusable.

yodased · August 2016

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

starkerealm · August 2016

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

Honestly, you're looking at that too cynically. The real question is, how many people will we lose if we take the time to fix it, instead of releasing content?

If you'll lose more people to the bugs, than you will to a content freeze, you're going to need to keep churning out content, or there won't be a game to support.

tinythinker · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

Honestly, you're looking at that too cynically. The real question is, how many people will we lose if we take the time to fix it, instead of releasing content?

If you'll lose more people to the bugs, than you will to a content freeze, you're going to need to keep churning out content, or there won't be a game to support.

FFXIV was a disaster of bad design and mega-bugginess at launch, and Square Enix felt so bad they made it free to play for a while as they tried to fix it. It became clear that too much work was needed, so they shut the game down for several months, and re-opened once they felt confident in what they had done. Square got a lot of credit for that and has gotten great reviews since for that game.

I'm not saying ZOS should shut the game down, but, if they explained that they needed to put out less content for a while to get caught up on lag, performance, and the bug list, there is precedent for the fan-base of such an MMO based on a popular franchise to be appreciative and understanding. Some will always complain, but, look at this last update: barber shop and two dungeons. Not "nothing", but not nearly as big as DB, TG, or especially Orsinium. Going smaller and giving the bug chasers and system designers more time to get things right is a viable and smart move.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

I dont apologize. I didn't write rage comments, but ZOS has repeatedly taken steps toward worse game performance.

The thieves guild update removed direct x 9 support which made a more stable game and locked out a number of friends. Performance went down ever since. They conciously chose to *** with their engine, now they deal with the backlash for it.

Re-impliment direct X 9.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2016

I was getting a little curious as to why it seems like, the patching is taking longer than it uses to, I do understand having worked in the industry as a Enterprise System Administrator, even simple thing can take loner than anticipated. There are no magic wands to fix issues and fixing one issue can break others some things you would have never guessed.

starkerealm · August 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

Honestly, you're looking at that too cynically. The real question is, how many people will we lose if we take the time to fix it, instead of releasing content?

If you'll lose more people to the bugs, than you will to a content freeze, you're going to need to keep churning out content, or there won't be a game to support.

FFXIV was a disaster of bad design and mega-bugginess at launch, and Square Enix felt so bad they made it free to play for a while as they tried to fix it. It became clear that too much work was needed, so they shut the game down for several months, and re-opened once they felt confident in what they had done. Square got a lot of credit for that and has gotten great reviews since for that game.

I'm not saying ZOS should shut the game down, but, if they explained that they needed to put out less content for a while to get caught up on lag, performance, and the bug list, there is precedent for the fan-base of such an MMO based on a popular franchise to be appreciative and understanding. Some will always complain, but, look at this last update: barber shop and two dungeons. Not "nothing", but not nearly as big as DB, TG, or especially Orsinium. Going smaller and giving the bug chasers and system designers more time to get things right is a viable and smart move.

What you're saying is, Final Fantasy XIV was so bad on launch, you couldn't get people to play it for free.

ESO has never been anywhere near that threshold.

Your game has to be APB bad, to actually consider taking it down. This is only a legitimate choice if the game will die anyway, and you're trying to salvage it.

ESO's still got a pretty healthy population. Go wander through the non-vet zones if you don't believe me. I realize it disrupts your personal narrative of "oh, the game is too buggy to play," but, that's just not supported by the actual, in-game, population.

The only reason FF14 was able to come back from that was, the game was so terrible at launch, no one cared when it got shut down.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

Some bugs specific to Xbox one....seem to only gain attention from rage posts.
I don't agree that it's the best way to communicate but people's behaviors will follow what's being attended to.

Calm often gets overlooked due to how the team lacks the focus to address bugs that impact pay services since launch.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · August 2016

Ive never thought it was easy to fix hard to track bugs. What i did think was easy? Writing post keeping players informed and making it look like you are interested and engaged in your own game.

tinythinker · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

ESO's still got a pretty healthy population. Go wander through the non-vet zones if you don't believe me. I realize it disrupts your personal narrative of "oh, the game is too buggy to play," but, that's just not supported by the actual, in-game, population.

Thanks for replying to an argument or observation I never made. As to that reply, you don't wait until the population takes a nose dive to prioritize significant issues. No one outside of ZOS has actual numbers on how many people stay with the game/for how long, so going by what you or I personally do or don't see can be misleading unless we play all factions and visit all zones daily at various times per day on a regular basis. ZOS has admitted how big some of these issues are and have talked about their commitment to fixing them, so tell *them* not be so hard on the game.

My actual comment had to do with the fact that many players/fans will respect a company and offer patience if they feel a trade-off is worthwhile for improving performance. Firor himself said at E3 that people tend to come and go a lot in this game, so they are thinking of doing smaller content updates. I suspect this also has the advantages I mentioned for slowing down a bit on releasing big things in order to improve performance. Not sure why such a view isn't sensible or positive, but, you know, I guess I'll go now and wander through vet zones so that the viewpoint you've assigned to me can fall apart

Smasherx74 · August 2016

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

I apologize for assuming a bug and updates are "easy" to fix. This ESO Live has educated me more about the process and what it takes to get stuff done. In the future I HOPE some of the ESO RAGE COMMUNITY on this forum helps make this process easier for the developers.........

CORRECTION: I was apologizing for some of the nasty things said by people on this Forum that was purely rage based. NOW EDUCATED........do your views change towards ZOS?

DO you apologize for some of the rage comments you may have left on the forum??

So the devs argued a L2P issue as their excuse? Foh ZOS What is this? Can I get a transcript of the stream?

BruhItsOver9000 · August 2016

Didn't watch it, don't care.

Lysette · August 2016

I know how difficult bug tracking and fixing can be - however, if I run into a bug within the first few minutes of playing the game, then I assume that QA has not done their job properly. Furthermore, when armor sets have shields, which cut into the head and the hips of a character, and they do not see that - then they have definitely not done their job - things like that should never pass QA and given an "ok".

And another thing - we are not talking here about the difficulty to find a bug within a few days and fix it - they cannot fix it in months or even years - and that is just a bad joke.

kylewwefan · August 2016

Fix it!!

Stovahkiin · August 2016

Exactly, I understand that they can't just clap their hands together and automatically fix everything, but there are problems that are still here that have been around for quite a while, so you can only play the "Oh it takes a while to fix it" for so long.

JD2013 · August 2016

Never raged. I see no point in raging on a forum.

However, I did find that segment particularly interesting. I know very little about how bug fixes work, so it was nice to see some insight into the process.

One thing that I will probably say trips ZOS up a lot is how differently a test server works compared to the live server. There's lots of variables that they can't or don't anticipate. For example, I can imagine that it is hard to recreate what happens on a live server in PVP, given that the server and indeed the client has to calculate so many different numbers at any given time.

And then, when they add thousands of lines of new code in with each DLC, that can create some havoc.

Is it an excuse? No. But sometimes things just can't be calculated no matter how much testing goes on. Could this game do with some shine and polishing? Sure could in some areas. But I can only imagine the stress that goes on in their offices.

yodased · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

Honestly, you're looking at that too cynically. The real question is, how many people will we lose if we take the time to fix it, instead of releasing content?

If you'll lose more people to the bugs, than you will to a content freeze, you're going to need to keep churning out content, or there won't be a game to support.

I dunno, thats how my meetings go and I am the dev in the situation. Not really cynical, its how the system works.

Cost benefit analysis says fixing potential bugs will lose less money than releasing new content will make, new content is released.

Lysette · August 2016

JD2013 wrote: »

Never raged. I see no point in raging on a forum.

However, I did find that segment particularly interesting. I know very little about how bug fixes work, so it was nice to see some insight into the process.

One thing that I will probably say trips ZOS up a lot is how differently a test server works compared to the live server. There's lots of variables that they can't or don't anticipate. For example, I can imagine that it is hard to recreate what happens on a live server in PVP, given that the server and indeed the client has to calculate so many different numbers at any given time.

And then, when they add thousands of lines of new code in with each DLC, that can create some havoc.

Is it an excuse? No. But sometimes things just can't be calculated no matter how much testing goes on. Could this game do with some shine and polishing? Sure could in some areas. But I can only imagine the stress that goes on in their offices.

They could just use their brains and math - and then they would see, that the lag in Cyrrodil cannot be fixed without to change the combat mechanics in a way, which makes zergs undesirable and they have to cut down on AoE spam as well by changing the design so, that this cannot be spammed that often - math could tell them this, this does not even require testing to know, that this is not working out, if the stuff has to be computed on the server. It worked in their earlier development, because they put these calculations on client machines (which opened the game for hacks, cheats and botting), but it does not with a proper (or in this case less messed up) client-server architecture.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Apologizing to ZOS after being educated from ESO LIVE 8/12

Apologizing to ZOS after being educated from ESO LIVE 8/12 134 votes