Apologizing to ZOS after being educated from ESO LIVE 8/12

SantieClaws

If they have the bugs why not use one of the many powders available from an alchemist?

This one she finds they bring the soothing relief!

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

TheHsN

NO i dont.

Vipstaakki

TheHsN wrote: »

NO i dont.

You know you should.

hrothbern

Lysette wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

I honestly had numerous conversations like that with management as a lead developer. There DOES have to be a balance between fixing/refactoring and making changes customers can see and appreciate.

I have a lot of sympathy in the "this is complicated" department, but when I hear things like how it'll take months to change loot tables, I wonder what kind of totally borked architecture this game is built on.

I came to this idea a couple of times already - latest in the last live show - these guys are actually afraid of touching core systems - this tells a lot about the "legacy code" and what it might be like. In my company these guys would not have a future, I could not have people around, who are afraid to approach problems and find solutions.

At lower level in a company you want people that are improvement driven/orientated
At higher levels in a company you will find people that have much more risk awareness in their focus.
You need both

BlackEar

The show was informative on how bugs were handled and also had some interesting insight to the way they test their dungeons, even know it wasn't something we could not decipher ourselves, it was nice to hear how they try to emulate the player.

Waseem

ZOS did not apologize for the millions of players who quitted ESO due to the destruction of Cyrodiil and their slacking in taking proper procedures to fix it and return it to its original state, the same state this game has been advertised over 18 months ago and had my attraction to buy and play it.

Lysette

.

hrothbern wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

I honestly had numerous conversations like that with management as a lead developer. There DOES have to be a balance between fixing/refactoring and making changes customers can see and appreciate.

I have a lot of sympathy in the "this is complicated" department, but when I hear things like how it'll take months to change loot tables, I wonder what kind of totally borked architecture this game is built on.

I came to this idea a couple of times already - latest in the last live show - these guys are actually afraid of touching core systems - this tells a lot about the "legacy code" and what it might be like. In my company these guys would not have a future, I could not have people around, who are afraid to approach problems and find solutions.

At lower level in a company you want people that are improvement driven/orientated
At higher levels in a company you will find people that have much more risk awareness in their focus.
You need both

Ok, I will give some background, so that you see why I made this statement in this way. We are working in Biotech in the field of biorobotics and autonomous drones. This is why my staff has to consist of people, who do what no one else has done before and approach problems in new ways, without to be afraid to even be radical and look at it from a totally different perspective never done before. If I would hire staff, which does things "as usual" or is afraid of turning things upside down to see if it can be done in a better way, we would not get far. Same with people, who say "this cannot be done", if there is no absolute reason for why it couldn't be done. There is always a solution, but it requires the courage to make it happen.

RedFireDisco

I apologise to my wife for eating a whole box of See's candies, then blaming it on her drunken night before. It almost worked.

Damn me for being a lazy ass and stuffing wrappers in my pant pockets.

I'm better than that.

Mojmir

I'd tell them they don't have to be here,right?

But as usual they're nowhere in sight.

Lysette

BlackEar wrote: »

The show was informative on how bugs were handled and also had some interesting insight to the way they test their dungeons, even know it wasn't something we could not decipher ourselves, it was nice to hear how they try to emulate the player.

To me it was interesting to hear, that a dungeon takes about 3+ months to be developed and tested - I thought that it is not quickly made, but that it is 3+ months surprised me actually. It seems to be a lot harder to make something enjoyable to play than I expected.

tryia3b14a_ESO

I don't know what excuses they gave, but that's all it is: excuses. I've never raged out, but I am very disappointed with the level of quality of this game compared to other MMOs.

The only excuse I can think of for this game being in the state it is in on xbox is that they don't have adequate staff to bring it up to the level of quality that is consistent with other games on the market.

EverHaunted

This game has no more bugs then any other MMO. I've encountered maybe 2 small bugs in past 2 months.
Sure, fixing bugs should be on the priority list, but stalling content for a few bug fixes is absurd.
Foremost, they have different teams working on different things. Debugging won't be done by a content dev, and vice versa.
Secondly, content drought kills games.

Croaxor

Sure... fixing certain bugs might take some time, i can agree with that. But having the lagg in PvP for 3 years is not acceptable.

hrothbern

Lysette wrote: »

.

hrothbern wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

I honestly had numerous conversations like that with management as a lead developer. There DOES have to be a balance between fixing/refactoring and making changes customers can see and appreciate.

I have a lot of sympathy in the "this is complicated" department, but when I hear things like how it'll take months to change loot tables, I wonder what kind of totally borked architecture this game is built on.

I came to this idea a couple of times already - latest in the last live show - these guys are actually afraid of touching core systems - this tells a lot about the "legacy code" and what it might be like. In my company these guys would not have a future, I could not have people around, who are afraid to approach problems and find solutions.

At lower level in a company you want people that are improvement driven/orientated
At higher levels in a company you will find people that have much more risk awareness in their focus.
You need both

Ok, I will give some background, so that you see why I made this statement in this way. We are working in Biotech in the field of biorobotics and autonomous drones. This is why my staff has to consist of people, who do what no one else has done before and approach problems in new ways, without to be afraid to even be radical and look at it from a totally different perspective never done before. If I would hire staff, which does things "as usual" or is afraid of turning things upside down to see if it can be done in a better way, we would not get far. Same with people, who say "this cannot be done", if there is no absolute reason for why it couldn't be done. There is always a solution, but it requires the courage to make it happen.

Thanks, understand where you are coming from
I kept my first post simple.

The TLTR, longer comment would have been:
Key is that I think that ZOS is NOT a cutting edge innovative company and it also should not be that !
The fact that ZOS uses high end stuff does not make ZOS high end. The fact that the game is very complex with many interrelated aspects, makes changes tricky.
ZOS needs imo a solid profile and culture.

Companies that are (technological) improvement driven can be, are the more innovative, the smaller they are and the less matured the operational field is.
Such companies can be very succesful and have high growth rates, but this happens at the expense of survival risk (you get nothing for nothing).
So many, not to say most, perish and some keep being succesful.
These companies are based on getting and retaining the kind of people you describe: forwardlooking, out of the box, not entangled by risk avoidance. It is: "innovate or wither".

Many big companies, also in high end performing have an 180 degree other approach: they are conservative and risk minded and the darling of shareholders (analysts, institutional investors), who feel that their money is secure. Key is: "never risk what you have". But these companies must grow to increase the shareholders value: "grow or wither".
So the usual way to do that is to also buy small innovative companies for their IP once the succes of that IP is proven.
They pay lots and lots of money for that. They can afford it and the risk is low.

And in my background I worked in both kind of companies for thirty years after I exchanged my own innovative hardware/software company including AI Chess programming in the early seventies for a solid job career in the high end of the metal industry (kids, family, etc).

BTW
One of the best football clubs in the world the past 40-50 years, the German club Bayern München, applied exactly that conservative big company strategy for decades. They never took any innovative risks themselves regarding trying out themselves new ideas and concepts. Once other clubs had experimented and developed proven concepts, and they decided to follow, they just bought enough new players experienced with the best play style and if needed exchanged the trainer as well, to benefit and to stay in the top tier.
Big amounts of money, low risk and continuous succes.
The big clubs of UK and Italy took over this concept from Bayern.

Lysette

hrothbern wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

.

hrothbern wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

I honestly had numerous conversations like that with management as a lead developer. There DOES have to be a balance between fixing/refactoring and making changes customers can see and appreciate.

I have a lot of sympathy in the "this is complicated" department, but when I hear things like how it'll take months to change loot tables, I wonder what kind of totally borked architecture this game is built on.

I came to this idea a couple of times already - latest in the last live show - these guys are actually afraid of touching core systems - this tells a lot about the "legacy code" and what it might be like. In my company these guys would not have a future, I could not have people around, who are afraid to approach problems and find solutions.

At lower level in a company you want people that are improvement driven/orientated
At higher levels in a company you will find people that have much more risk awareness in their focus.
You need both

Ok, I will give some background, so that you see why I made this statement in this way. We are working in Biotech in the field of biorobotics and autonomous drones. This is why my staff has to consist of people, who do what no one else has done before and approach problems in new ways, without to be afraid to even be radical and look at it from a totally different perspective never done before. If I would hire staff, which does things "as usual" or is afraid of turning things upside down to see if it can be done in a better way, we would not get far. Same with people, who say "this cannot be done", if there is no absolute reason for why it couldn't be done. There is always a solution, but it requires the courage to make it happen.

Thanks, understand where you are coming from
I kept my first post simple.

The TLTR, longer comment would have been:
Key is that I think that ZOS is NOT a cutting edge innovative company and it also should not be that !
The fact that ZOS uses high end stuff does not make ZOS high end. The fact that the game is very complex with many interrelated aspects, makes changes tricky.
ZOS needs imo a solid profile and culture.

Companies that are (technological) improvement driven can be, are the more innovative, the smaller they are and the less matured the operational field is.
Such companies can be very succesful and have high growth rates, but this happens at the expense of survival risk (you get nothing for nothing).
So many, not to say most, perish and some keep being succesful.
These companies are based on getting and retaining the kind of people you describe: forwardlooking, out of the box, not entangled by risk avoidance. It is: "innovate or wither".

Many big companies, also in high end performing have an 180 degree other approach: they are conservative and risk minded and the darling of shareholders (analysts, institutional investors), who feel that their money is secure. Key is: "never risk what you have". But these companies must grow to increase the shareholders value: "grow or wither".
So the usual way to do that is to also buy small innovative companies for their IP once the succes of that IP is proven.
They pay lots and lots of money for that. They can afford it and the risk is low.

And in my background I worked in both kind of companies for thirty years after I exchanged my own innovative hardware/software company including AI Chess programming in the early seventies for a solid job career in the high end of the metal industry (kids, family, etc).

BTW
One of the best football clubs in the world the past 40-50 years, the German club Bayern München, applied exactly that conservative big company strategy for decades. They never took any innovative risks themselves regarding trying out themselves new ideas and concepts. Once other clubs had experimented and developed proven concepts, and they decided to follow, they just bought enough new players experienced with the best play style and if needed exchanged the trainer as well, to benefit and to stay in the top tier.
Big amounts of money, low risk and continuous succes.
The big clubs of UK and Italy took over this concept from Bayern.

This has quite some truth in it, the longer I think about it - thank you for sharing.

hrothbern

Lysette wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

.

hrothbern wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Almost three years, some bugs from beta still exist

Keep making all the excuses you want

ZOS meeting 101.

Dev: man we got this punch list of bugs.
Boss: how much revenue will we lose if we don't fix it?
Finance: Maybe 2%
Boss: How many people bought the new dlc?
Sales: 750k
Boss: make a new dlc
Dev: but the bugs, I can fix them given a team and enough time.
Boss: you are fired, to junior dev: Make a new dlc.

It's also why they don't fix pvp, if everyone stopped pvp obviously the cost benefit says that's ok.

I honestly had numerous conversations like that with management as a lead developer. There DOES have to be a balance between fixing/refactoring and making changes customers can see and appreciate.

I have a lot of sympathy in the "this is complicated" department, but when I hear things like how it'll take months to change loot tables, I wonder what kind of totally borked architecture this game is built on.

I came to this idea a couple of times already - latest in the last live show - these guys are actually afraid of touching core systems - this tells a lot about the "legacy code" and what it might be like. In my company these guys would not have a future, I could not have people around, who are afraid to approach problems and find solutions.

At lower level in a company you want people that are improvement driven/orientated
At higher levels in a company you will find people that have much more risk awareness in their focus.
You need both

Ok, I will give some background, so that you see why I made this statement in this way. We are working in Biotech in the field of biorobotics and autonomous drones. This is why my staff has to consist of people, who do what no one else has done before and approach problems in new ways, without to be afraid to even be radical and look at it from a totally different perspective never done before. If I would hire staff, which does things "as usual" or is afraid of turning things upside down to see if it can be done in a better way, we would not get far. Same with people, who say "this cannot be done", if there is no absolute reason for why it couldn't be done. There is always a solution, but it requires the courage to make it happen.

Thanks, understand where you are coming from
I kept my first post simple.

The TLTR, longer comment would have been:
Key is that I think that ZOS is NOT a cutting edge innovative company and it also should not be that !
The fact that ZOS uses high end stuff does not make ZOS high end. The fact that the game is very complex with many interrelated aspects, makes changes tricky.
ZOS needs imo a solid profile and culture.

Companies that are (technological) improvement driven can be, are the more innovative, the smaller they are and the less matured the operational field is.
Such companies can be very succesful and have high growth rates, but this happens at the expense of survival risk (you get nothing for nothing).
So many, not to say most, perish and some keep being succesful.
These companies are based on getting and retaining the kind of people you describe: forwardlooking, out of the box, not entangled by risk avoidance. It is: "innovate or wither".

Many big companies, also in high end performing have an 180 degree other approach: they are conservative and risk minded and the darling of shareholders (analysts, institutional investors), who feel that their money is secure. Key is: "never risk what you have". But these companies must grow to increase the shareholders value: "grow or wither".
So the usual way to do that is to also buy small innovative companies for their IP once the succes of that IP is proven.
They pay lots and lots of money for that. They can afford it and the risk is low.

And in my background I worked in both kind of companies for thirty years after I exchanged my own innovative hardware/software company including AI Chess programming in the early seventies for a solid job career in the high end of the metal industry (kids, family, etc).

BTW
One of the best football clubs in the world the past 40-50 years, the German club Bayern München, applied exactly that conservative big company strategy for decades. They never took any innovative risks themselves regarding trying out themselves new ideas and concepts. Once other clubs had experimented and developed proven concepts, and they decided to follow, they just bought enough new players experienced with the best play style and if needed exchanged the trainer as well, to benefit and to stay in the top tier.
Big amounts of money, low risk and continuous succes.
The big clubs of UK and Italy took over this concept from Bayern.

This has quite some truth in it, the longer I think about it - thank you for sharing.

Cheers

mistermutiny89

When bugs have been plaguing a game for more than a year, good developers out source fixers. Example: Destiny. The heavy ammo glitch where they got some genius in to fix that glitch and numerous others.

Zenimax does the same thing over and over and over again with their code without trying different strategies, hence the reason you won't see apologies from many of us.

Avenias

Apologize for what exactly? For pointing out all the screw ups?

Bigevilpeter

cause i never said anything rude, just bringing awareness to them about issues i find

tat2mano

Voted No cause all games have developers working on them but hardly any of them have developers trying to convince us theyr work is even harder then Rocket science...
If they cant handle fixing bugs they should look for another job imo.
And concidering how long some bugs just keep lingering in game without getting fixed i think the time for a new job for them is getting close.......

Elsonso

tryia3b14a_ESO wrote: »

As someone who once spent 5 years in different levels of QA at different game companies, I guarantee you that QA both saw and reported the really easy to see obvious issue. Then a dev or producer took that report and either said "don't care" or put it in the pile of "maybe we'll get around to this."

Yup.

Quality is more than QA. It is not possible to say whether someone in QA is contributing to quality problems, as a willing participant, or whether they just got stuck reacting to decisions made by others. We can't really tell who agrees or disagrees with those decisions, from this perspective.

Drakoleon

Zeni is releasing DLCs with major bugs most of them already detected and and reported from PTS! So... why the hell should anyone apologize for being "rude" in forum?

Zeni should publicly apologize for selling defected "software" and not trying to explain how difficult is to "cure" bugs they created!
Too bad i can't return defected "merchandise" and get my money back!

tat2mano

Drakoleon wrote: »

Zeni is releasing DLCs with major bugs most of them already detected and and reported from PTS! So... why the hell should anyone apologize for being "rude" in forum?

Zeni should publicly apologize for selling defected "software" and not trying to explain how difficult is to "cure" bugs they created!
Too bad i can't return defected "merchandise" and get my money back!

They should stop making new DLC all together at this moment and fix ALL the bugs first in the base game,
new DLC just create new bugs and the old bugs that need to be fixed get left behind,
how many times did they say they fixed the group bugs...

tryia3b14a_ESO

EverHaunted wrote: »

This game has no more bugs then any other MMO. I've encountered maybe 2 small bugs in past 2 months.
Sure, fixing bugs should be on the priority list, but stalling content for a few bug fixes is absurd.
Foremost, they have different teams working on different things. Debugging won't be done by a content dev, and vice versa.
Secondly, content drought kills games.

We'll, if they said that, maybe that's their problem. Every studio I've ever worked for has the devs that made it fix it. Seems to work pretty well. I mean if I made it, I should be able to make it work right (or at least take a crack at it before begging an engineer to help me).

Also, it's good that you, personally, haven't encountered that many bugs, but just look around the forums at the huge amount of progression blocking bugs that are affecting a large amount of players (console crashes, group bug, unplayable lag in Cyrodiil, infinite load screens). I've run into all these myself. And I'm really unhappy with the quality of some of the items I bought on the crown store too. Now compare this to other big MMOs and you'll see a huge discrepancy in quality.

I may sound mad, but I'm not, just disappointed. It's cool there's a bunch of new DLC content to play, but I still can't join a group to play it.

Makkir

Would you apologize to the waiter if your steak comes back undercooked?

CapnPhoton

ADarklore wrote: »

I never left rage comments because I understand how difficult it is to track down bugs through thousands of miles of code... so I think you forgot a fourth option... "I already understood how difficult their job was and so I never left rage comments against ZOS".

Agreed. The poll is incomplete.

People rage and react but they don't have any concept of what it takes to make it all happen. But you can't tell them that because they already know everything.

Stovahkiin

CapnPhoton wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

I never left rage comments because I understand how difficult it is to track down bugs through thousands of miles of code... so I think you forgot a fourth option... "I already understood how difficult their job was and so I never left rage comments against ZOS".

Agreed. The poll is incomplete.

People rage and react but they don't have any concept of what it takes to make it all happen. But you can't tell them that because they already know everything.

It goes both ways. Zeni has had a lot of time to fix some of these issues that have been around for a good while. I don't have a problem with giving them time to fix NEW bugs, but when they just focus on releasing new (buggy) content instead of actually fixing the old buggy content first, then we start having a problem.

zZzleepyhead

That is their job. My job can be difficult at times, but it doesn't mean I'll let things fall apart because of it. There are so many fundamental issues with the game that should've been fixed.

Wycks

The bugs and mis-direction in the game came be attributed directly to upper managements lack of long term planning. agile development and actual knowledge of the game itself, rather than some coder hunting down fixes.

It sounds like a very dismal work environment...

Refuse2GrowUp

I'm not choosing any options. Simply, I do not rage on the forums. However, they can claim it takes x amount of time to fix bugs. Yet these are the guys who wrote the code. They should know how to fix the code they wrote. Simple as that. Yes, some bugs and glitches will take longer to investigate, isolate, and fix. Yet some can be hot patched over night, even on console, and yet they do not do it. They do not do it regardless of the outcome it has on the sportsman and competitive natures of both PvE and PvP. They do not do so because they do not want to commit resources. Period.

And frankly, until they grow a damn backbone and show both the capability and willingness to curb cheating and the use of exploits, then I refuse to accept anything they say in regards to the vast number of bugs and glitches in game.

Candy coat s*** on ESO live all you want. At the end of the day, ZOS is measured against their competitors, and right now others are better at fixing bugs and mitigating and punishing cheats and exploits.

I am here because I love the game...truly love the game. But every day I am in the game I feel closer to leaving. Enough is enough and, quite unfortunately, I have to agree with many others that the game has become a cash grab. I envision that the 'way head' plan is all about selling boxes and crown store content instead of providing a stable, competitive game for years to come.