Coming from the early days when things like skill or attribute resets were un-heard MMOs I still find some of this a bit pathetic.

Nooope.

I don't know how to vote on this. Itd be nice to not repeat everything i achieved since launch to explore another class. Not everyone has time for multiple classes to level up. Like anything though people will abuse it and switch to whatever is OP for the current update.

I would rather they allowed all characters access to all class skills/spells, and add spellcrafting.
Then! (Along with One Tamriel)
This game will finally be the true ESO experience it should have been from the get go.
The thing with class skills for all in true TES fashion, some are earned, found, trained and bought, will probably never happen.
But One Tamriel is and thats a hell of a good start.
And spellcrafting? We could still see it one day.

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Your logic escapes me since people ALREADY change their skills on a whim to match the FToM of their class, why not the class itself? It's not like it's just some "EZ" road and you would still have to train up all those skills.

Plus how can you argue when we are going to have race AND name changes?! Seems much more game killing that I could go into a shop as a Nord and come out a freakin' Altmer with a different name to boot!. WTF is that all about? Changing class actually makes logical sense by comparison. Gotten bored of being a DK tank? Well just drop all your heavy armor, march over to the Mages guild and learn how to be a Sorc. Not seeing how that is game killing. Just like changing your job in RL.

Why not change the class itself ? Wait... you're saying that you're ready to put $ in the crown store to change your class everytime Zenimax makes an update in order to play the same build as the majority instead of figuring out a way to adapt your own build ? It's ridiculous...

I'm against race changes aswell, if you wondered. My opinion is that you must deal with the choices you made at the beginning. (About name changes... well I don't give a f since it's in no way going to affect game mechanics). What you fail to understand is that once again, this ISN'T Skyrim, we're NOT on an RPG, we are playing a MMORPG; And the thing with MMORPG is that logical sense don't/can't/musn't prevail over game mechanics.

However, you seem to really care about logical sense, so let's go down that road:
It doesn't make logical sense to change your class. First, changing your class would imply forgetting your DK abilities to learn Sorcerer abilities. You said that it's just like changing your job (wich is false but we'll get to that later), so tell me in what world you live ? Because in my world, I could change my job right now, I wouldn't forget my previous job. Actually I could even do both, so according to your so called logical sense, what we need isn't class change, it's the ability to play every class.
Second, Sorcerer, DK, Templar and Nightblade aren't jobs. Blacksmith is a job. Woodworker is a job. Alchemist is a job. You see my point ? Dragonknights are masters of the Akaviri Martial arts, while sorcerers master the Daedric, Storm and Dark magics. You don't go from one to the other just by following a training course at the mages guild, just like you don't go from a Master Ballerina to a Krav Maga expert with an internship. (btw, just to make things clear, mages and sorcerers are different things).

So yes, class change is game killing.
First because you'll see everyone playing the same class according to wich one is considered OP by the majority of players. It's already boring to see everyone playing the same build... but at least we can see all 4 classes, so let's not make things worse.
Second, it would be another step down the E-Z road, in favor of the casual players. I think Zenimax gave them enough easiness already.
Third, I proved that your class change logic doesn't make much more sense than race change or name change.

Well I'm working within Zenimax's concept of logic. (and so are you) I personally have about 80% of my class skills trained to full on both magicka AND stamina but I can only use one morph at a time? So yeah if we are working within that logic box then changing class would be about the same thing

ALSO you seem to be forgetting about ALL of the other skills that we would have access to that wouldn't be "lost". (and they wouldn't be lost either, just not accessible like the other morph)

All I want is the OPTION, just like everything else. I personally don't have the desire to change classes every update, that IS what alts are for. I would just like to change the class of 1-2 of my alts but keep the character itself intact.

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Well I'm working within Zenimax's concept of logic. (and so are you) I personally have about 80% of my class skills trained to full on both magicka AND stamina but I can only use one morph at a time? So yeah if we are working within that logic box then changing class would be about the same thing

ALSO you seem to be forgetting about ALL of the other skills that we would have access to that wouldn't be "lost". (and they wouldn't be lost either, just not accessible like the other morph)

All I want is the OPTION, just like everything else. I personally don't have the desire to change classes every update, that IS what alts are for. I would just like to change the class of 1-2 of my alts but keep the character itself intact.

I was only working within your concept of logic to prove that it has huge flaws and thus, can't be considered as the Holy Truth. The fact that you think this is Zenimax's logic is a totally different thing, on wich I don't agree.
We could have that talk about logic for as long as you want, with pros, cons, more pros and even more cons, it wouldn't change anything, because when you say if we are working within that logic box, the keyword is if. As I said in my previous post :

CreepyPahuska wrote:

the thing with MMORPG is that logical sense don't/can't/musn't prevail over game mechanics.

In other words, that logic box of yours is much smaller than you think/want it to be.

I understand that all you guys want is the OPTION. I mean... it's quite obvious that you're asking ZoS to give you the option to change your class, and not that you want them to force you to change your class, it's absurd. What you don't want to understand is that 71% DON'T WANT that option. Basically, telling us that it's just an option so it won't affect us is a big nonsense. I don't know what's wrong with you guys but I don't think it's that hard to understand that TESO is a MMORPG, and thus, adding an OPTION IS GOING TO AFFECT EVERYBODY.
Let's take a very simple and very stupid example to make sure everyone understands clearly :
I want the to be able to purchase Godmode Tokens from the crown store, would you tolerate that in any MMORPG if I told you "ye but you know, it's just an OPTION, you don't have to use it, why you care ?". I know I might be exagerating a little bit, but it seems that simple explainations aren't enough.

Now I'll just conclude by quoting @Shaiba (yeah because we like to quote each other) cause I'm not sure you read it :

Shaiba wrote: »

Cause they're already adding bad things to the game, let's kill it even more ? Yay, what a lovely idea.

Interesting that you should bring up that logic mustn't prevail over game mechanics because I was going to say the same thing. Again this no different than the morph mechanics we have in the game. And to be honest, most games I have played that allow class switching do not allow you to use your previous class skills until AFTER you have surpassed your previous class level. So, since this will never happen, those skills will never be dual used in ESO.

You think that people are just ALL going to rush to change their class and to that I say bull****. That's what's called the unrealistic gloom and doom scenario which is just building a strawman argument. You are trying to paint the bleakest possible scenario in support o your argument when we all know it simply will not happen. How do I know? Well from that fact that over the last 2 years things have changed a LOT and, if your scenario was true, everyone would be playing only one class and build, right??! but you know what I STILL see? Diversity. DKs, Sorc, NBs, Temps of both the stamina and magicka persuasion, there is no single superior class/build. Sure there are FToM builds for everyone but that's the nature of MMOs (at least in my experience)

Most people DO have alts and will simply use them instead of making the effort of changing class (and it will be an effort). For someone like me personally however, I LIKE the character I have created and feel that turning him into nothing but a craft bot / mule because I don't like what the class has turned into is ridiculous (and a travesty). I would like to continue to play THAT character/race/name, just in a different role. Even if we had class change in the upcoming patch, you know what would happen? Not huge shift of classes as you would have us believe but a huge shift of races (which will happen, mark my words). Races like Argonians and Nords will become scarce as all the FToM kiddies trot off to play the races with max resource skills. Why? because people ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, it's human nature. It will 10x easier to change race to get than bonus immediately with zero effort than to go through the pain of class re-training.

One more point....if you knew anything about gaming forums it's that they are not very representative of the overall population. At any time the forum goers account for roughly 10% (there is hard empirical evidence for this) of the total active population (and of that 10% only a fraction actually read and bothered to respond to the OP) 2k+ people actually looked at this thread but only 304 votes were cast so a mere 15% (or less) bothered to vote. Now if we managed to get even half the total population to vote, THEN you would have some legs to stand on but this isn't a very strong turnout to claim that an actual 71% of all players (or even forum readers) don't want this........We are the vocal minority like it or not.

Last...my job change scenario from RL isn't nearly as far off base as you would claim. I assume you have never made a drastic shift in jobs because I have and let me tell you, most of my previous job skills didn't apply to my new job. Some general ones helped but by and large it was a new ballgame. Also after a year or so I started to forget the specific things from my previous job so given time, you would eventually not be able to do both jobs equally well. So to apply that to ESO.......all the "other" non class skills you have trained that you CAN continue to use are those general skills you carry over in RL to a new job.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Interesting that you should bring up that logic mustn't prevail over game mechanics because I was going to say the same thing. Again this no different than the morph mechanics we have in the game. And to be honest, most games I have played that allow class switching do not allow you to use your previous class skills until AFTER you have surpassed your previous class level. So, since this will never happen, those skills will never be dual used in ESO.

You think that people are just ALL going to rush to change their class and to that I say bull****. That's what's called the unrealistic gloom and doom scenario which is just building a strawman argument. You are trying to paint the bleakest possible scenario in support o your argument when we all know it simply will not happen. How do I know? Well from that fact that over the last 2 years things have changed a LOT and, if your scenario was true, everyone would be playing only one class and build, right??! but you know what I STILL see? Diversity. DKs, Sorc, NBs, Temps of both the stamina and magicka persuasion, there is no single superior class/build. Sure there are FToM builds for everyone but that's the nature of MMOs (at least in my experience)

Most people DO have alts and will simply use them instead of making the effort of changing class (and it will be an effort). For someone like me personally however, I LIKE the character I have created and feel that turning him into nothing but a craft bot / mule because I don't like what the class has turned into is ridiculous (and a travesty). I would like to continue to play THAT character/race/name, just in a different role. Even if we had class change in the upcoming patch, you know what would happen? Not huge shift of classes as you would have us believe but a huge shift of races (which will happen, mark my words). Races like Argonians and Nords will become scarce as all the FToM kiddies trot off to play the races with max resource skills. Why? because people ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, it's human nature. It will 10x easier to change race to get than bonus immediately with zero effort than to go through the pain of class re-training.

One more point....if you knew anything about gaming forums it's that they are not very representative of the overall population. At any time the forum goers account for roughly 10% (there is hard empirical evidence for this) of the total active population (and of that 10% only a fraction actually read and bothered to respond to the OP) 2k+ people actually looked at this thread but only 304 votes were cast so a mere 15% (or less) bothered to vote. Now if we managed to get even half the total population to vote, THEN you would have some legs to stand on but this isn't a very strong turnout to claim that an actual 71% of all players (or even forum readers) don't want this........We are the vocal minority like it or not.

Last...my job change scenario from RL isn't nearly as far off base as you would claim. I assume you have never made a drastic shift in jobs because I have and let me tell you, most of my previous job skills didn't apply to my new job. Some general ones helped but by and large it was a new ballgame. Also after a year or so I started to forget the specific things from my previous job so given time, you would eventually not be able to do both jobs equally well. So to apply that to ESO.......all the "other" non class skills you have trained that you CAN continue to use are those general skills you carry over in RL to a new job.

No difference with the morph mechanics ? Well... from changing the evolution of a skill to changing 3 trees with all their actives and passives, that's a pretty big difference IMO. Changing a morph leaves your character in the same general playstyle. Changing your class changes everything, but I'm sure you know that already.

I don't think that ALL people are going to change their class, just to many to be a problem. You really think that when deto mageblade were a thing, lots of people wouldn't have changed to nightblade ? You really think that when they "nerfed" sorcerers people wouldn't have change all their sorcerers to something else ? If you do, you really must be living in a carebear world. In such cases, people play their alts cause they don't have the option to change their class.

Now let me please show you how you contradict yourself :

over the last 2 years things have changed a LOT and, if your scenario was true, everyone would be playing only one class and build, right??!

Nope, wrong, precisily because as you said, things have changed a LOT. Everyone would be playing only one class and build, if the said class had been OP for the said 2 years. Now give people the option to easily change their class everytime things changes and you can say goodbye to that diversity we both care so much about. Leveling an alt was much harder when they were still veteran ranks, it's way easier now that they removed them, please let's not make things worse.

Once again, you bring the argument that they added race changes, so why not adding class changes... to that I'll answer the same thing :

Shaiba wrote:

Cause they're already adding bad things to the game, let's kill it even more ? Yay, what a lovely idea.

Let's say they add class changing, how painful is it going to be to level your skills again ? Seriously, even if you assume that you'll be level 0 in every skill tree (and kowing ZoS, unfortunately, I wouldn't take that for granted...), leveling them would be a matter of days, and they wouldn't lose their weapon skills, nor would they lose their guild skills... so... yeah, I don't think the gain/pain ratio is that painful.

Oh, and don't give me that "it's only 10% of 10% of 10% of 10% so this poll is not valid". I do know a few things about gaming forums and how representative they are of the overall population. You just bring that up because you're unhappy with the result, but it's ridiculous. When you do statistics, you takes samples. Let's say you want to know if french people prefer snails or frog legs, you're definitely not going to ask every french people or even half of them. You'll ask a much smaller sample, and you accept that the result might not be 100% true and that it may vary a little bit.
Whether our current sample is big enough or not, there is a 49% difference between the yes and the no, and you know that a bigger sample wouldn't cover such a big difference.

One more thing... you said :

For someone like me personally however [...] I don't like what the class has turned into

You say that as if it were a very specific case, why do you think this is different from anyone else ? You think that from all the people who want to change their class, those who want to do it because they "don't like what the class has turned into" is some kind of minority ?

About your job change scenario... let me just reuse your arguments : it's your personnal experience and you're not a big enough sample to represent everybody. My experience proves me differently. My father had no issue being a chef after quitting for 18 years, and in my line of work, people having two jobs is a common thing, and I can assure you that they do it well.
But anyway, let's not spread our private life here. As I said I still think that class aren't comparable to RL jobs, it simply makes no sense to me, and just because something is true IRL doesn't mean it has to be true in a MMORPG. That kind of argument is NOT valid, and to be fully honnest, I'm getting tired of explaining it to people who, apparently, barely care reading it.


PS :

games I have played that allow class switching

I'm curious to see your list of MMOs that allows class switching, right now I can only name 2.

No!!! And am not "fine" with the existing ones cause they are unbalanced! There were always OP classes through the years and after every other patch. Adding new one??? No way

Flak wrote: »

wolfninja101b14_ESO wrote: »

However, class change is now highly demanded by most of the ESO community.

Your own poll proved you wrong.

Yeah i'd hardly call 300 ish "Most of the ESO community" LOL

Cously wrote: »

Also class plays nothing in the game's story, nobody cares what class your soul shriven is. It makes zero difference. It certainly won't affect my gameplay if people change their class. So what if everyone will switch to a class when it turns fotm? Let me put it clear...IT IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS.

Shaiba wrote:

it's an MMO, we need to think in term of game mechanics, we need to think for a community, we can't think selfish, cause it won't only affect your game, your char, you're own experience, it'll affect everyone's experiences of playing, it'll affect the WHOLE community

TESO is an MMO game.

I think that you need to grow with your character. Learning how to use the skill, and which ones to use when, is part of the fun. I want to be good with my char while leveling it. Although I can see why others think differently.

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Interesting that you should bring up that logic mustn't prevail over game mechanics because I was going to say the same thing. Again this no different than the morph mechanics we have in the game. And to be honest, most games I have played that allow class switching do not allow you to use your previous class skills until AFTER you have surpassed your previous class level. So, since this will never happen, those skills will never be dual used in ESO.

You think that people are just ALL going to rush to change their class and to that I say bull****. That's what's called the unrealistic gloom and doom scenario which is just building a strawman argument. You are trying to paint the bleakest possible scenario in support o your argument when we all know it simply will not happen. How do I know? Well from that fact that over the last 2 years things have changed a LOT and, if your scenario was true, everyone would be playing only one class and build, right??! but you know what I STILL see? Diversity. DKs, Sorc, NBs, Temps of both the stamina and magicka persuasion, there is no single superior class/build. Sure there are FToM builds for everyone but that's the nature of MMOs (at least in my experience)

Most people DO have alts and will simply use them instead of making the effort of changing class (and it will be an effort). For someone like me personally however, I LIKE the character I have created and feel that turning him into nothing but a craft bot / mule because I don't like what the class has turned into is ridiculous (and a travesty). I would like to continue to play THAT character/race/name, just in a different role. Even if we had class change in the upcoming patch, you know what would happen? Not huge shift of classes as you would have us believe but a huge shift of races (which will happen, mark my words). Races like Argonians and Nords will become scarce as all the FToM kiddies trot off to play the races with max resource skills. Why? because people ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, it's human nature. It will 10x easier to change race to get than bonus immediately with zero effort than to go through the pain of class re-training.

One more point....if you knew anything about gaming forums it's that they are not very representative of the overall population. At any time the forum goers account for roughly 10% (there is hard empirical evidence for this) of the total active population (and of that 10% only a fraction actually read and bothered to respond to the OP) 2k+ people actually looked at this thread but only 304 votes were cast so a mere 15% (or less) bothered to vote. Now if we managed to get even half the total population to vote, THEN you would have some legs to stand on but this isn't a very strong turnout to claim that an actual 71% of all players (or even forum readers) don't want this........We are the vocal minority like it or not.

Last...my job change scenario from RL isn't nearly as far off base as you would claim. I assume you have never made a drastic shift in jobs because I have and let me tell you, most of my previous job skills didn't apply to my new job. Some general ones helped but by and large it was a new ballgame. Also after a year or so I started to forget the specific things from my previous job so given time, you would eventually not be able to do both jobs equally well. So to apply that to ESO.......all the "other" non class skills you have trained that you CAN continue to use are those general skills you carry over in RL to a new job.

No difference with the morph mechanics ? Well... from changing the evolution of a skill to changing 3 trees with all their actives and passives, that's a pretty big difference IMO. Changing a morph leaves your character in the same general playstyle. Changing your class changes everything, but I'm sure you know that already.

I don't think that ALL people are going to change their class, just to many to be a problem. You really think that when deto mageblade were a thing, lots of people wouldn't have changed to nightblade ? You really think that when they "nerfed" sorcerers people wouldn't have change all their sorcerers to something else ? If you do, you really must be living in a carebear world. In such cases, people play their alts cause they don't have the option to change their class.

1) Whether or not the mechanics scale was never in question. They would be however the same EXACT mechanics (or should be since this is conjecture). You lose those skill points and have to re-allocate them to new skills. If you later went back to said "old" class, those leveled skills would be available if you put points back into them. Works nearly the same way for vamp or WW (except the pts don't get wiped but if you become say a Vamp again those skills are waiting)

2) "Just too many to be a problem". What exactly is that number? 20%? 30%? 50% You use some ambiguous statement and don't bother qualifying it so I can't even truly discuss this.

I don't however believe it will be the problem you claim it to be, why? Because it will cost crowns to make the switch first and foremost. Considering the cost for a race change, could you imagine the cost for class? Even at say 3k it would be something most people did sparingly, if at all. Sure there are a few people with the disposable income to do it more often but those types are rare.

Now let me please show you how you contradict yourself :

"over the last 2 years things have changed a LOT and, if your scenario was true, everyone would be playing only one class and build, right??!" Nope, wrong, precisely because as you said, things have changed a LOT. Everyone would be playing only one class and build, if the said class had been OP for the said 2 years. Now give people the option to easily change their class everytime things changes and you can say goodbye to that diversity we both care so much about. Leveling an alt was much harder when they were still veteran ranks, it's way easier now that they removed them, please let's not make things worse.

Sorry no contradiction......most avid players (the ones you are really worried about) have had PLENTY of time to level alts. If their current class/build falls out of favor they would just move to the alt with the FotM. The fact is however, while there are again some that do this, most have stayed with the class they LIKE and maybe flop between stam/magicka. Again the diversity I srill see out in game proves this.

Once again, you bring the argument that they added race changes, so why not adding class changes... to that I'll answer the same thing :

Shaiba wrote:

Cause they're already adding bad things to the game, let's kill it even more ? Yay, what a lovely idea.

Let's say they add class changing, how painful is it going to be to level your skills again ? Seriously, even if you assume that you'll be level 0 in every skill tree (and kowing ZoS, unfortunately, I wouldn't take that for granted...), leveling them would be a matter of days, and they wouldn't lose their weapon skills, nor would they lose their guild skills... so... yeah, I don't think the gain/pain ratio is that painful.

lol days, I consider myself a dedicated player and even for me it would take a good week or more. (I've flopped mag to stam and it wasn't 3 days till all my new skills were both leveled to morph then morph 4). For the casual player that would be weeks or months. So yes, I don't think it would be "ez" and would probably dissuade many casuals from doing it (coupled with the cost)

You need to stop thinking in terms of the HC gamer. What might seem relatively painless for you, others may view as a daunting task.

Oh, and don't give me that "it's only 10% of 10% of 10% of 10% so this poll is not valid". I do know a few things about gaming forums and how representative they are of the overall population. You just bring that up because you're unhappy with the result, but it's ridiculous. When you do statistics, you takes samples. Let's say you want to know if french people prefer snails or frog legs, you're definitely not going to ask every french people or even half of them. You'll ask a much smaller sample, and you accept that the result might not be 100% true and that it may vary a little bit.
Whether our current sample is big enough or not, there is a 49% difference between the yes and the no, and you know that a bigger sample wouldn't cover such a big difference.

Actually you are wrong. I put little stock in any poll I see precisely because I know how miniscule the sample size is AND because of the type of player that usually posts. I would be JUST as skeptical if the poll was reversed. I participate in polls because it's always fun but I have never nor will I ever create a poll for that very reason.

Now if everyone who had looked at this thread had actually voted, that might be a good representative number. The fact is 85% of the people who looked at this thread didn't give a **** about it enough to even vote. That to me is a more telling number.

One more thing... you said :

For someone like me personally however [...] I don't like what the class has turned into

You say that as if it were a very specific case, why do you think this is different from anyone else ? You think that from all the people who want to change their class, those who want to do it because they "don't like what the class has turned into" is some kind of minority ?

Um no? You mean I'm not allowed to use my personal experience AND more importantly why I am in favor of a class change? I see, so my opinion and reason why is meaningless since you don't agree with it. Got it.

About your job change scenario... let me just reuse your arguments : it's your personnal experience and you're not a big enough sample to represent everybody. My experience proves me differently. My father had no issue being a chef after quitting for 18 years, and in my line of work, people having two jobs is a common thing, and I can assure you that they do it well.

Hate to break it to you there Tex but sample size here is ONE. We have had different experiences but the fact that I have had an experience that proves my statement means only that what I said originally was not some huge flaw in logic. That's it. Or does my personal experience again not count because only your experience counts? Yeah I already got that.

But anyway, let's not spread our private life here. As I said I still think that class aren't comparable to RL jobs, it simply makes no sense to me, and just because something is true IRL doesn't mean it has to be true in a MMORPG. That kind of argument is NOT valid, and to be fully honnest, I'm getting tired of explaining it to people who, apparently, barely care reading it.

They don't make sense to you but they do to me. I'm not going to claim that my example was a perfect analogy (because we are talking about RL compared to the simplicity of a game) but once again I see that because YOU can't grasp something, that automatically makes my point invalid. Check.

games I have played that allow class switching

I'm curious to see your list of MMOs that allows class switching, right now I can only name 2.

First off please note the operative word there....."games". I didn't specifically say MMO's because, well there aren't a lot of them. The most recent MMO I played however that DID was WO (Wizardry Online) and there were no problems with class changing.

The bigger point though is, there IS precedent for it.

It certainly makes much more sense than to change your ****** RACE! (something btw I have never been able to do in any game I have played and will be much more "game breaking" than class switching imho)

Shaiba wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Interesting that you should bring up that logic mustn't prevail over game mechanics because I was going to say the same thing.

So why using logic as an argument then ? You are just contradicting yourself here. This is weird

Um no, because that statement means, all things being equal, game mechaincs should win out over logic but you can never just cast logic aside since it IS what the game mechanics are based on after all. Logic IS still a part of the equation, just not the biggest part. I mean we didn't base the game on a certain amount of logic, why limit mounts to traveling at a mere gallop? Or why do armor types give different bonuses? Or why even have gravity?! Why can't we all just fly around?

And to be honest, most games I have played that allow class switching

They were'nt MMO, aren't they ? Only few MMO allows class changing, cause of particular game mechanic. I know 2 for sure : Archeage cause you don't "choose" one class, you combine three skills trees to make your class. Skyforge cause you can only play one character. Class changing breaks game mechanics in MMOs like TESO. And you said above that "logic mustn't prevail over game mechanics" ( yeah, I'll reuse your argument , ty for that )

I already answered that one above

and it's YOUR opinion that changing class will break ESO, I disagree and feel it's both much less "game breaking" (and lore breaking for that matter) than race change.

How do I know? Well from that fact that over the last 2 years things have changed a LOT and, if your scenario was true, everyone would be playing only one class and build, right??! but you know what I STILL see? Diversity. DKs, Sorc, NBs, Temps of both the stamina and magicka persuasion, there is no single superior class/build. Sure there are FToM builds for everyone but that's the nature of MMOs (at least in my experience)

I don't see such diversity in game. So few non-templar healer, and i haven't see a lot of sorc tank for example. Sadly majority of people took the easiest route (templar = healer / DK = tank). Why do I talk about build and not class ? Let me explain : If you allow people to change their class skill without any effort (yeah if your credit card is far away from you it can took some minutes of walking, i'm pretty sure you'll survive this kind of effort ) most of them will use meta class (just like the vast majority nowadays is using meta builds). And BTW you explained why later in your post *, thx to you I won't have to argue against you, you already did it, again.

Then you must not be looking very hard. I see plenty of NB tanks, melee Sorc and loads of magicka players that have a back bar devoted to healing (since all you have to do it pick up a Resto staff). So I would recommend taking a closer look

And, as I have explained many times before (and you obviously don't get), you would still have to level all those skills which can be a daunting task for a lot of players who don't play 40+ hrs a week. You know the vast majority of the population.

Most people DO have alts and will simply use them instead of making the effort of changing class (and it will be an effort).

Sorry but is that a joke ? That's the best I have ever read. Thx for the laughing dude. Making alts demands more "effort" than changing class. But in both cases, it's not difficult... And it will take 2 to 5 days... It's just ridiculous for an MMO, it's easy peasy as hell. If you aren't new to MMO games you can't deny that fact.

Ah yes, another HC gamer that can level 2 bars of new skills fully in no time. I already covered that above

And yes I agree that leveling an alt would be more difficult than changing class but that was never discussed. The point though is, many people ALREADY have a full slate of alts maxxed out for every class/build or role. So they would have little to no need or want to class change.

I'll be rude dude : it's an MMO, we need to think in term of game mechanics, we need to think for a community, we can't think selfish, cause it won't only affect your game, your char, you're own experience, it'll affect everyone's experiences of playing, it'll affect the WHOLE community. I already said that in my previous post (last sentence i think) you must have missed it again (and I had to paraphrase me again, it's boring... ).

No I didn't "miss" anything. I simply DISAGREE with your opinion? Am I not allowed to do that?

I don't think it will be game breaking and I don't think people will flock in droves to do it, it's simply an OPTION (or are you somehow missing what I have been repeating over and over .......and over?). Again I covered this above. Obviously you and Creepy there think only your opinions count.

Even if we had class change in the upcoming patch, you know what would happen?

No nobody can, except mediums. Are you medium ? The only thing we can do is making assumptions of what will happen (without forgetting the "bad" part of it, cause we're not carebears).

Not huge shift of classes as you would have us believe but a huge shift of races (which will happen, mark my words).
Ok, you said FotM kiddies will change race cause they are FotM kiddies (which is right, and btw i already said that i think race change is game breaking mechanics).

Guess you only deal in a black and white world then. Must be difficult for you to make decisions without knowing every single fact. That's unfortunate.

See, I'm not being a "Medium" I'm taking the empirical evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. What evidence you ask? Well the droves of threads/comments on the forums for the last 2 years clamoring for race change and when it will happen and what race they will be ditching because it doesn't have the best resources for their build. The only thing that may prohibit the masses race changing may be the cost (I hadn't anticipated Zenimax would put the price that high).

Now like I said earlier, and you don't read or took the time to answer me on this point (or don't find any arguments against it) : "Cause they're already adding bad things to the game, let's kill it even more ? Yay, what a lovely idea." Which means (if you haven't understood my point here) that adding bad features to the game (you admitted you too think it's an aberration) can't become an excuse to add one more game breaking mechanics. Hope you understand better now.

No, yeah I "get" your argument. There is SO much that they have done however that I disagree with, that adding race change at this point is trivial at best imho.

Hell in beta I was very against them allowing an "all race" package or even allowing a floating race that could be in every alliance (Imps). Whatever alliance you chose, you should have had THREE and only three race choices. Allowing say a Breton to play as a member of the Pact or Khajiit to be a DC made zero sense. Well that happened.

Allowing guilds based on accounts instead of factions, allowing full communication with opposing faction members. Happened.

It goes on and on......and now we have both race/name change and "One Tamriel" where we will all be one big happy family (outside of Cyrodill?) So we do dungeons together, quests, guild stuff, etc but when we enter PvP we are suddenly enemies? All sorts of nonsensical ********. So yeah, 1% more broken is fine with me after all the other bad I DIS-agreed with to be allowed.

I have a question for you : What were the MMORPGs you have played for what period of time ? Sorry to ask, but it seems to me that you don't know a lot about MMOs and you're talking about things you don't understand. If i'm wrong, then i'm sorry if you feel offended by my question, and i'll continue argue (you are polite, so yeah no problem for me) and I know that you can understand my arguments. If you're new to MMOgs I'll stop there, cause you can't understand why/how it'll impact the community, and you can't understand what i'm talking about. And if you can't understand that, there's no point for me to continue argueing.[/i]

I can appreciate your thinly veiled insult without being direct about it (so as to avoid being moderated) but it is what it is.

I assure you I have most likely played at least as many MMO's as you probably have, have been a forum poster in all of them AND have an excellent grasp of how this game works. What are your MMO "credentials"?

What I find funny though is, you think you are somehow the authority and ONLY your morally superior opinion is the right one. Fact is your opinion is just that, an opinion just like mine and everyone elses, both have equal weight.

But to answer your question....... DAoC, WoW, CoH (and CoV), EQ2, CO, SWG (though not long), WAR, Rift (again not long), WO, SW:TOR, ESO and CU will be my next.

One more thing....I'm not arguing, I'm discussing and debating. Your last comment however proved you are in fact arguing and hence our conversation is at an end. I won't discuss things with people who resort to throwing insults. It proves they have nothing good left to say.

@CreepyPahuska sums it up Specially about our thought on your opinions...

For my list of MMOs you asked, I PMed you, I listed 20+ MMOs I have actively played. And 4 more that I have less played (only a month or two). Like I said in my PM I haven't talk about MOBA and Co-op FPS, only about MMORPGs (I won't compare any other type of game with TESO (which is an MMORPG) that'd be weird ^^) Just to make it clear, you now know I'm not talking about thing I don't know . Your question was legit, you wanted to know if I wasn't talking about things I don't understand, to know my experiences, I can understand that, I answered it my best (hope I didn't forget any MMOs on my lessed played lists). And if you're trying to know who has the biggest one, this is just stupid (I'm sure every man of the planet has a bigger one than me, you know )....

I can appreciate your thinly veiled insult without being direct about it (so as to avoid being moderated) but it is what it is.

Like I said I'm sorry if you feel offended by my question. It wasn't an insult (not even a veiled one), not at all, it was a real question. You answered, I understand better now why you don't know how MMORPGs game and community are working, you don't have so much experiences in those kind of game. It's not an insult, that's fact (you said you haven't played so much these kind of game which implies that you haven't so much much experiences in those kind of game, logic). I PMed you to give you my apologies on this quiproquo, I tell here (in public) that i'm sorry again if you felt offended, it wasn't my intention, it was a real question to understand better your posts. Thx for the answer BTW. It helped me understand your point of view.

I'm not arguing, I'm discussing and debating

You can't debate without adding an argument to your discussion. Debate is contension in argument. English isn't my native language, so I didn't know there is a difference between "argueing" and "adding an argument to the debate", I thought it was the same thing (in my native language "arguing" and "adding an argument to the debate" are the same thing), so yeah what I meant was "adding an argument". Sorry for the quiproquo.

Now if everyone who had looked at this thread had actually voted, that might be a good representative number. The fact is 85% of the people who looked at this thread didn't give a **** about it enough to even vote. That to me is a more telling number.

Lol days I know you know better about forums than me, you're so pro, etc... :
But I need to tell you something,

One more point....if you knew anything about gaming forums

you'd know that number of views =/= number of people who looked at this thread. Number of view increases each time someone look at the topic (yeah even people who already look the topic numerous times before). 2330+ Views don't mean 2330+ people looked at it.

For the casual player that would be weeks or months. So yes, I don't think it would be "ez" and would probably dissuade many casuals from doing it (coupled with the cost)

MMOs are time consuming, everybody knows that, even "casuals". If they/I/you choose to play a time-consuming game, they/I/you have to assume their/my/yours choices. I won't be sad for people who don't, honestly. Casu (or anyone, i don't care if someone is playing less than me or more than me per day) can't reach the same point as any other gamer with less effort (cause class changing is "easier" than rerolling, that's a fact, not my opinion). Nothing wrong here.

For the prices, are you not aware that MMOs are full of "whales" ? You can have good examples of that in TESO. For example : we could see Dro Matra Senches at every corner of the game when it was added to the crown store (its costs was 4000 crowns). And it only was a mount skin. We're talking about a feature that'll allow people play differents classes easier (take care about my words, i'm not saying easy, i'm saying easier). Lot of chance that most people will buy class/race change, no matter the price.
NB (for nota bene not Nightblade x)) : i'm not judging people who bought the Dro Matra Senches, nor the one who bought a lot in crown store (i already bought things in crown store too), I just used that as an example, cause he seems to think that people who are spending money in the crown store aren't that many... Aren't that many enough to break game balances if class change is added to the crown store. We can't seriously think that ZoS will add a feature in the crown store that won't be sold a lot... (why do you think they're selling these features ?)

I won't discuss things with people who resort to throwing insults. It proves they have nothing good left to say.

K, you read my 3 uber post (sometimes people are saying i'm too long to read) (without taking the time to answer to my first ones), and the only thing you cared about is an inexisting insult. Sadly... Nothing to add I already said everything I add to say in my previous post.

If i'm wrong, then i'm sorry if you feel offended by my question, and i'll continue argue (you are polite, so yeah no problem for me) and I know that you can understand my arguments. If you're new to MMOgs I'll stop there, cause you can't understand why/how it'll impact the community, and you can't understand what i'm talking about. And if you can't understand that, there's no point for me to continue argueing

You can fix argueing for debating/discussing, I thought in english it was the same thing like in my main language.

Obviously you and Creepy there think only your opinions count.

Cause we disagree with you, cause we added arguments onto the discussion ? You're contradicting me and you disagrees should I understand you too are thinking only your opinion count QQ ? You don't care about our arguments, you didn't try to discuss with us. To each arguments, you said "that doesn't count", "it's an insult", "it's my opinion", you focused on the reasons why you want class change and when we bring the reasons why we don't want it you ignored them or said "that was never discussed".

Oh and don't give me the "you don't like my opinion so it's invalid"' bullsh** again please. The point of a debate is to validate your arguments and invalide those of your opponent(s). If you can't play within the rules, don't play at all. Playing the victim is a totally different game that I won't play with you nor with anyone.

You're right, I give up too It becomes boring.

Have a nice day.

I'd rather the walls come down regarding classes - and I'd like to see faction change.

Dev wrote: »

i would like to see the option made available and would think that as a company, this is a good idea: It means more income. People will pay for the option, myself included so why not make it available?

looking over this thread, there is more about people's ego and self-deluded emotions, more then anything actually factual:

1. While people may have alts, that is not really important. Just because players have chosen to have alts for end game doesn't mean that a class change shouldn't be allowed. Most of the posts i read are from people with several chars in their profile, so for them it would not be needed and of course they against the idea.. self-centered and just plain wrong for a company to support this type of mentality.
2. the argument that 'it is so easy to level' blah blah... No, its not that easy to level when you haven't done it x times for your alts. While we may 'only have to get it to 50', that is your opinion and nothing more. Nope, not a single iota of value in those statements...
3. some of the players would like to be able to try new builds without having to roll another char, or be locked into a role. i often try new builds and ways to enjoy the game, and a class change would be a nice option. i actually like the idea of having all the content completed on one char versus a 'try to keep track of' scenario which would have char1 on thieves guild and char2 on brotherhood...
4. all the discussion points about the FoTM is BS. It doesn't change a damn thing if people can change their class by a potion or logging out. If class 'x' is for September, people will flock to it regardless and is made a case in point by the very people (with multiple alts already) whom are 'so against a class change'.
5. people need to get their head out from their rears on this whole concept that somehow this is lore breaking, story breaking or what have you. If you need a reason per the lore, then: Sheogorath walked up randomly one day and saw a piece of cheese, remembering back to your encounters, he decided to turn you into 'x class'. Why? Who knows when dealing with the Sheo.."
6. Game mechanics... seriously how can this even be an argument? The abilities our characters have are records in a database, and they are impacted by: update playerRecordTable; set class = 'New job' where playerID =<your id> and nothing to do with some studying or what have you. it is a game, and not the real world after all.

Now while i am for a class change option, i would really prefer if we could get rid of classes all together and just have the skill trees all opened. Maybe have a quest series to learn the new class, or something which we could pick a secondary class, but just open the options. This would add a whole world of new builds and things we could try.

The one fact that is being somewhat ignored: At the end of the day, we have two bars with 5 ability slots and one ultimate: If i can choose between DK/Templar/NB abilities or just swap classes, i still need to build a bar that will get me through the content.

Besides, the more options we have the more we will play, and hopefully the more enjoyment we would have.

I bolded your one statement because this is EXACTLY what ZOS said when people complained about having to level to 50 before being able to start gaining Champion Points. So for you to say, "Nope, not a single iota of value in those statements..." you should probably realize that these statements that you don't put any value in, came from ZOS directly. It may not have been in regards to Class, but it was in regards to people complaining about having to reach level 50 before they could get something.

My view is that Class change would be difficult because your Class skills are LEVELED... and when you change classes, all your class skills are basically ZERO. So now you're stuck trying to level skills in high level content since in One Tamriel everything will be battled leveled; so there you sit at CP160 with level 1 Class skills. Now, you could rely on your weapon skills to get you through content while leveling your Class skills, but what if you've played a mostly weaponless Class like Magicka Templar? So now you have DW Swords on a Magicka build, basically your weapons are not going to keep you alive. Oh, and let's also not forget the difference in skill level between players... so you have a lower skilled player with a high level character and now he pays to change Class but now his class skills are too low to be viable for content and he's going to struggle, and perhaps leave the game because he couldn't level his Class skills in high level content. And for the record, no I don't support anything that just magically grants you fully leveled Class skills.