frateanu.luiseb17_ESO wrote: »

In real life we have pvp even we want it or not ( we have murderers, thieves, wars , terrorists)

ESO is a virtual world..with many things ., even justice system. So why not extend it ?

English is not my native language

Yup my thoughts exactly. And @Tipsy idea of having bounty within factions is brilliant, loved it!

I'll drop the reasonable argument and confess, as I've lost too much time arguing about an opt-out system, that in fact, I'm totally contrary to it. No opt-out for me, the way you can keep yourself out of PvP is not committing crimes or being discrete PERIOD If this is "force my gameplay style onto others, I'd say nobody asked me if I was ok with removing it in the first place, and ZOS didn't ask anybody about removing Veteran Ranks, pulling out spellcrafting or forgetting about RP server they advertised, so I don't know why I bother trying to get people totally contrary to any kind of PvP, to the side of people in favor of it as if it would then increase the chances of the system being implemented.

You are forcing your gameplay style onto others just as well, arguing to limit PvP to another world you don't live in. You think this is fair but I see PvP being severely crippled as the years go by and the players looking for it deserve just as much as PvEers get, and we got plenty!

Second, the immersion and the virtual opportunity to mimic a truly, believable world for me is far more interesting than being a part of the hamster wheel so many people have been running(and I've been there, but I got sick of it).

ZOS have neglected Cyrodiil and PvP for a long time now, allowing it to happen into a few selected systems could be funny and bring diversity into the PvE system since it gets boring very quickly. As a plus it offers many features in the RP perspective as well, allowing you to swing a sword to anybody's face, and hurt.

@Tipsy concept really sparks a lot of things, like limiting the justice system and the enforcers to only being able to restrain other factions criminals, you wouldn't be flagged for PvP in your own faction, but once you commit a crime outside of your province, you're flagged as a troublemaker and will be the target of not only enforcers, but assassins and bounty hunters.

My solely purpose is to expand the options and features of the game, I couldn't care less if a low-level character who just got out of the wailing prison is weak and poor - this is the point of RPGs, gain power as the relevancy of your character increases in the story - do it carefully, be tactic or kill wolves and do quests, they are plenty and won't get you much less money either.

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've removed a few posts that had started derailing this discussion.

This post needs to be derailed and forgotten about! Maybe even deleted :-)

frateanu.luiseb17_ESO wrote: »

In real life we have pvp even we want it or not ( we have murderers, thieves, wars , terrorists)

ESO is a virtual world..with many things ., even justice system. So why not extend it ?

English is not my native language

Well in real life we have no choice, life is it.

In a virtual world, in a game, one among many, we can choose the reality we prefer, we enjoy and choose to spend our time there doing that.

In games aplenty, its been seen some players prefer pvp, others pve, others in between.

If you take you reality notion, eso becomes all pvp instead of now a game with both so that players can choose.

Right now, players who wsnt to play in a pve eso game can do so by staying in pve areas.
Players who wsnt pvp can do so by staying in pvp zones.
Some people want to take that away from pve players by taking some pve content and making it possible to put pvenplayers in a pvp-or-ransom situation all across tamriel.

I am not one of those.

Tipsy wrote: »

@STEVIL

Its not a matter of choosing to cater more to PVP or PVE players.
By the way,I think the "us vs them" mentality in the end hinders both types of players to enjoy the game to the fullest.
The new justice level "wanted" wouldnt be "a massive takeover of pve activities".Since players would first need to reach the wanted level to be flagged pvp.
Its like one commiting terrorist attacks & then expecting to maintain all the rights an innocent being has.
Rather than a takeover,it would allow players to actually defend their alliance from injustice.
Also,did it ever occur that some players might want to help uphold the law instead of break it?
It just makes no sense that you can take no action if you see another player slit the throat of an NPC in your own alliance.
As the champion and defender of the alliance,at least you should be able to thwart those that threaten the cohesion of your alliance like that.
Its treason.And as our great queen says "traitors we end,no question" xD

With the release of One Tamriel,they have the opportunity to make the game more exciting for both types of players.Both pve & pvp players
It is a shame that players that only play pve skip on Cyrodiil now & thus miss a great portion of the game.
Just as it is a shame that cyrodiil is the only place for pvp players to do their thing"
The new justice level + unique justice systems for each alliance could fix all that.
Maybe the ruling faction of cyrodiil can have a Pve only phase for their members,as long as they are the dominant alliance?(just suggestion maybe not best solution to this)
Its good to think about how both areas (pvp-pve) could offer something for each type of player.
Next to the new justice level ,duels with auto accept/decline in the gameplay menu would be sweet too,for those that do not like the question to pop up.

@Tipsy

First thanks for looking out for what can help me enjoy the game to the fullest.

Second, massive takeover was referenced after the expansion of the issue to include the grinding in certain areas etc etc etc and that appears to be taking a lot of PVE actions and throwing them into a new "path to PVP ransom" model the PVP players who apparently would enjoy fighting PVE players more than PVP players" are seeking. This expansion of the "justice" to not only use justice ransom to extort PVE players into PVP is reminding me a lot of the old "hey, this is a real nice sotre here. be a shame if something happened to it" model. Set up more and more ways PVE actions can put PVE players into "give up your stuff or fight prepared PVP players."

Third, please cut the "then expecting to maintain all the rights an innocent being has." because we both know its not even close to the game or the goals. Currently, PVE theft and killing and all that justice jazz dont do what you are describing. there are consequence for getting caught, challenges etc which make it far from "all the rights". Like most other PVE activities, the difficulty is commensurate with the risk and skillful play can result in similar profit over time. as grinding, delving, farming, questing. of course, as noted, some want those to also be turned from PVE to "pathways to PVP" too.

Some players want to help uphold the law, sure. If you read my posts you will see in this and other threads i want a law and order DLC, daily content etc. I just dont want that to be a beard for a PVP takeover ransom setup so PVP players can get PVE targets for less difficult fights than they get when taking on PVP-ready players. I dont want law and order (as defined by player by player preferences) to be the excuse for turning tamriel into open world PVP and driving away the PVE players.

But it is good to know how far this justice-ransom-pvp takeover hopes to go.

Keeping this response G-rated: I've absolutely zero interest in forced PvP.

Tipsy wrote: »

Niastissa wrote: »

No this makes the thief's guid and dark brotherhood go from PVE to PVP quests. No thanks!

more possible risk if you get caught..doesn't that make it the more exciting?
Also for those who want to uphold the law in their own faction,its not nice that they are left with a feeling of guilt because they couldnt do anything about the fellow alliance victim getting brutally murdered.

Maybe you only become flagged if other players are near as they act as witness.
so not a universal pvp flag.Unless you get to the new wanted justice level.
I do believe those that get caught killing members of own alliance should be instantly flagged pvp for those around though.

Or what if the fugitive players who escaped the alliance where they are wanted become dark brotherhood targets and you get the choice of npc (only pvp if you are sloppy and get caught) or fugitive (pvp)?

or perhaps the fugitive hunting quest should be granted by the guard captain,instead of dark brotherhood.
For those who want to uphold the law,instead of break it..

its not about risk, its about enjoyment.

Currently the risk reward over time for stealing is on par with other PVE activities. A players prefering either can go do whichever they prefer. gains may be different but not way out of ehack. if anything the stealing activities is the least profitable over time in terms of total gains.

it doesn't make it more exciting to add "and this thing you dont want to do might occur" and especially if the "risk" moves from developed and balanced content to "whatever players looking to frustrate you can come up with."

and in just another s3entecne or two we get back to PCs spotting crimes triggring stuff...

because, you know, PLAYERS looking for victims wouldn't take advantage of their knowledge of key quest points to "stake out" etcb etc

thanls though... helps clarify the scope desired by some in the PVP-ransom-PVE crowd.

hingarthuub17_ESO wrote: »

Keeping this response G-rated: I've absolutely zero interest in forced PvP.

hey its not "forced" you can pay the ransom...

yeah agree here.

Tipsy wrote: »

@STEVIL I dont get why you keep talking about ransom & takeover..
you make it sound like pvp players would suddenly take control over all the content of pve players,take it hostage
Just because ther would be a new justice level introduced that would allow players to stand up for their alliance if needed.
While little changes for pve players ,unless they act as top criminals,reaching the new "wanted" justice level" (you'd have to do some really bad stuff)
What Divinius writes there is the problem "we pve vs the pvp players"
Its absurd to say things like "how dare you suggest taking away my pve action with your pvp?"
Pve and pvp are both features of the game .
Some players prefer one over the other.
Ill even tell y'all a secret;I'm not a pvp player, at all.

I just think its a shame that so many pve players never get to see cyrodiil,and so many pvp players only have cyrodiil to pvp.
I'm not the selfish one here.Infact,I think One Tamriel should feature prefered gaming styles over all of Tamriel in some way.
Maybe its because i posted in a topic discussing pvp justice system?In my proposal only the new justice level would enable pvp.
The rest would stay the same.So I don't get it why people suddenly show up like I try to steal away their game...

i talk about ransom and takeover because when presented with a complete optional system, where only PVE players who want to also revel in the excitement that is PVP have it put upon them... the answers are "no - want more".

Its takeover because current existing PVE only content is having PVP forced into it. (See the Op suggestion where enforcers can stop people and PVE FLEE isn't there. or wasn't no idea how its morphed since yesterday.) See the comments about also allowing "justice" and interferences for killing animals and killing other things. currently outside the "justice" window as long as its forcing PVP in.

its takeover when "run from the PVE guards" gets changed to "get forced into PVP."

And its ransom when post after post says "just dont flee and pay the bounty".

and while i didn't say "all the content of pve", not once ever... its good to see the admission by some of the PVP-ransom crowd that much broader reach than just the current juctice scope is on their radar. So much of the "justice pvp" seems at times to be just bearding for a mechanism to get pve targets for less competitive pvp opportunities than PVP vs PVP currently allows.

Right now, PVP and PVE are both features of the game and they are separate features. PVE players can do their thing. PVP players can do their thing. There is even a cross-over merger compromise with IC for those that want a little of both.

HINT: if PVP players made up so much of the population playing the game and so much of the money fueling the game and so much of the potential audience that it made sense for ZOS to turn this ine One PVP Tamriel... they would. Across many threads you can see even die hard PVPers admitting that the PVP audience isn't where ZOS sees the money or the fan base going.

So using One Tamriel as an opportunity to throw out the policy ZOs has already stated many times... separate PVP and PVE - is just not gonna happen no matter how much the PVP-ransom crowd thinks the PVE-only crowd would just love it.

And again, thanks for looking out for all those PVE players who choose to not see Cyrodil and so are missing out on so much.

STEVIL wrote: »

Tipsy wrote: »

Niastissa wrote: »

No this makes the thief's guid and dark brotherhood go from PVE to PVP quests. No thanks!

more possible risk if you get caught..doesn't that make it the more exciting?
Also for those who want to uphold the law in their own faction,its not nice that they are left with a feeling of guilt because they couldnt do anything about the fellow alliance victim getting brutally murdered.

Maybe you only become flagged if other players are near as they act as witness.
so not a universal pvp flag.Unless you get to the new wanted justice level.
I do believe those that get caught killing members of own alliance should be instantly flagged pvp for those around though.

Or what if the fugitive players who escaped the alliance where they are wanted become dark brotherhood targets and you get the choice of npc (only pvp if you are sloppy and get caught) or fugitive (pvp)?

or perhaps the fugitive hunting quest should be granted by the guard captain,instead of dark brotherhood.
For those who want to uphold the law,instead of break it..

its not about risk, its about enjoyment.

Currently the risk reward over time for stealing is on par with other PVE activities. A players prefering either can go do whichever they prefer. gains may be different but not way out of ehack. if anything the stealing activities is the least profitable over time in terms of total gains.

it doesn't make it more exciting to add "and this thing you dont want to do might occur" and especially if the "risk" moves from developed and balanced content to "whatever players looking to frustrate you can come up with."

and in just another s3entecne or two we get back to PCs spotting crimes triggring stuff...

because, you know, PLAYERS looking for victims wouldn't take advantage of their knowledge of key quest points to "stake out" etcb etc

thanls though... helps clarify the scope desired by some in the PVP-ransom-PVE crowd.

Hardly any crowd in here or anybody boasting the ransoms they had poor PvEers to pay.

STEVIL wrote: »

it doesn't make it more exciting to add "and this thing you dont want to do might occur"

First, well it does for some people, and what makes you think that I wanted to have the justice system removed? I am directly affected already for being hyped and then let down to a reasoning contained within a short phrase.

STEVIL wrote: »

"whatever players looking to frustrate you can come up with."

I don't want to frustrate anybody, but regarding, I'm already frustrated because of this and you simply don't care because it doesn't affect you. Fine, but be aware that this was a big let down not only for me but for several people. So it is not just "nothing". You had your side and this is how things turned out, and just can't summarily suppose it "wouldn't work" because it didn't even happen!

STEVIL wrote: »

"Developed and balanced content"

Now you just threw it right there without thinking about it.

There are several threads complaining how the DB DLC brought graphical content to a game that used to be much more family-friendly(don't get me wrong, praise sithis for this), and how DB made casual slaughter rewarding by adding not only the achievement but crafting supplies out of the kills.(now this is lame)

Immortal guards are another complaint that comes up often.

Having the PvP part of the justice system removed left some holes in the current implementation i.e. the ones mentioned above. In any way, balancing is needed for every new feature, so PvP Justice must also be part of a balance study, to integrate with the other current options you have to level up and gather resources and to avoid having one stand much farther than the other.

This should be the original criteria, not dividing the community in two and watch them burn.

The point is make all the ways to raise a character and reach a standing point equally rewarding, letting the choice depend entirely on your character concept, and the way you decide to play the game.

To my POV, the fear of being ganked or griefed is fed by the incredibly easy and casual PvE difficulty curve and not everything the other players do and that bothers you can be assumed as against the ToS.

Regarding the latter, I don't think stealing and murdering should be this trivialized and inconsequential, especially for people that just got out of the wailing prison whose only fun is to go on a murder spree without even changing "Vestige" clothing.

How do you know aren't those people multiboxing, raising characters to farm gold and ruin the game economy by exploiting an unbalance and half implemented feature? Isn't this exploit a flaw the game has and that needs addressing?

This concern is far more important than the PvP aspect of the Justice System and it belongs to the justice system which is a very unbalanced feature. You shouldn't mistake me as somebody whose solely purpose is to ruin other peoples fun by asking ransoms to let them do what they want.

I just want to be able to stop them from creating new characters and killing everyone surrounding them. I sincerely feel it breaks the game and ruins my experience, so stop dismissing this subject.

Having a questiline and conditions to become an enforcer and being able to approach them is much less casual than create a character and kill everyone with auto-loot turned on to make starting "easy".

The game needs assassins, bounty hunters and others to hunt down these criminals and ruin their exploits. Bounty hunting could make for a viable and lore-friendly way to develop your character, given it is balanced(they have the statistics, just need to lower a few numbers, raise others etc...)and can offer more questing options far beyond dailies and repeatables that a bunch of threads are also complaining about.

Divinius wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

I for one am even pro to player pickpocketing - make it that you lost a few gold and ingredients to that criminal you just noticed slipping around you. It was just a few coins, but what if an algorythm made it that the lucky pickpocket got your most valuable ingredient? Are you going to leave the game and stop playing?

Would I leave the game if they implemented player pick-pocketing? Are you kidding? If they ever implemented that, I would be long gone before the update even went live.

I've been absent from this thread for days now due to RL obligations, but glad to see a few people stepping in to take on the task of trying to explain why any PvP in the Justice system that doesn't have a full opt-out is a bad idea. And just for the record, though it was a while ago that I was asked:

Yes, I would indeed instantly quit playing if they ever added PvP to the Justice system -- unless it had a full opt-out switch that would allow me to do everything I can now (including fleeing from guards) without ever being able to get flagged for PvP.

There is nothing you can say or nothing you can do to effectively prove that you are being sincerely true and definitive about this, but I thank you anyway and invite you to the conversation, if you don't mind, what are your biggest concerns regarding PvP under the conditions we have tried to limit on its existence or if you'd like to mention the negative experiences you had with PvP in general?

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

I for one am even pro to player pickpocketing - make it that you lost a few gold and ingredients to that criminal you just noticed slipping around you. It was just a few coins, but what if an algorythm made it that the lucky pickpocket got your most valuable ingredient? Are you going to leave the game and stop playing?

Would I leave the game if they implemented player pick-pocketing? Are you kidding? If they ever implemented that, I would be long gone before the update even went live.

I've been absent from this thread for days now due to RL obligations, but glad to see a few people stepping in to take on the task of trying to explain why any PvP in the Justice system that doesn't have a full opt-out is a bad idea. And just for the record, though it was a while ago that I was asked:

Yes, I would indeed instantly quit playing if they ever added PvP to the Justice system -- unless it had a full opt-out switch that would allow me to do everything I can now (including fleeing from guards) without ever being able to get flagged for PvP.

There is nothing you can say or nothing you can do to effectively prove that you are being sincerely true and definitive about this, but I thank you anyway and invite you to the conversation, if you don't mind, what are your biggest concerns regarding PvP under the conditions we have tried to limit on its existence or if you'd like to mention the negative experiences you had with PvP in general?

I hadn't realised just how far the PvP wannabe takeover of the PvE content had come. Ye gods, do we PvEers have to be invited to join the conversation before we can contribute now? Not that there's much point if there's nothing we can do to effectively prove that we are being sincerely true and definitive about it.

As I've said in many similar threads, these discussions never fail to remind ZOS of the wisdom of their decision to keep PvE and PvP apart.

STEVIL wrote: »

@Tipsy

"You did say we can choose the reality we prefer".This is not true."

It is true. You just cannot choose the reality for everyonevelse.

First, of course, the comnent was in response to supporting pvp intobeso pve because it existed in reality put forth by someone.

The point was that in the gaming world with many different games, different options within them we can choose. Whether that is by playing one game over another or one z9ne over another, we can choose.

But we dont get to say "my preference is this and you have to go that way too."

Construing that into somehow forcing your flavor of pvp on those who dont want it... that not the same.

I call it pvp-ransom and takeover because, repeating myself, the pvp-ransom crowd wants to take current pve only actions which currently have only pve consequences and force pvp into them. That is a takeover. Since they want there to not be a pve flee alongside the pvp flee, they are forcing the pve player to choose between paying bounty and losing stolen loot or getting pvp. That is adding a ransom element, pvp or pay up. Seems it isnt enough to let the other players choose between pvp and pve, they want to make pve players pay a non-pvp toll. Depending on which you ask this might be for murders, or killing trees or however far their quest for easier pvp targets can get.

Read "they" as "some proposing stuff on this thread" not as a straw man "all of them" as they are fond of doing, please.

Pvp players deciding which pve actions "deserve" pvp consequences is fox in henhouse logic. That probably why they insist on the pve "opt-out" being linked to pve players giving up current options or paying ransom.

To me it is very telling that its not enough to let people decide for themselves whether they want to pvp, to make effort to bring people in willingly, to maybe work in play on some of the reason some folks dont want pvp... but instead the goal is to gain rules change leverage with interruptions of pve sctivities, takeover others and evdntual pay-up-or-pvp mandates.

The ZOS policy of having both pvp and pve but separste areas is wise, allows players to choose.
Glad they doubled down on that.

STEVIL wrote: »

but instead the goal is to gain rules change leverage with interruptions of pve sctivities, takeover others and evdntual pay-up-or-pvp mandates.

And what is the matter, the guards already do that and I don't see anyone in their sane minds complaining that guards should leave them alone. It may be because guards are Es and not Ps, but, how do you know they don't have souls? They might even collect far more data from you than the Ps who just want to be part of a feature the game offers, not "ruin your displeasing crime".

STEVIL wrote: »

Pvp players deciding which pve actions "deserve" pvp consequences is fox in henhouse logic. That probably why they insist on the pve "opt-out" being linked to pve players giving up current options or paying ransom.

And so is you deciding that PvP should stay outside your game.

STEVIL wrote: »

But we dont get to say "my preference is this and you have to go that way too."

Oh, and what is that you're saying?

C'mom you're just playing the counterpart here, everything that you say can be used against you on the same way, and in the end, PvE rules over 90% of the game already.

PvP justice system can be made worldly available under certain conditions that will serve to limit its abuse, but it can't be a complete opt-out because it breaks the system, even Cyrodiil is plenty of Es for you to get some as it would be completely unacceptable for most areas to be empty.

@STEVIL But by slitting fellow faction Npc's throats,you force the frustrating reality upon other players that they are unable to defend their beloved alliance when the cohesion of that alliance is threatened
I am annoyed by it very much.But im not gonna start topics requesting ZOS to remove that aspect of dark brotherhood from the game because I don't like it.I'm not that kind of person

Why not allow different options in the gaming world for both pve and pvp player?Why make players choose between one zone or another for what they want to do?
If the game has the potential to offer something for everyone ,everywhere..

Again,its not "forcing your flavor of pvp" .Since the current justice system levels are PVE only and one has to go through those lvls to reach the new pvp enabling "wanted" level
So pve players are still 'protected' from pvp..lol
When you earn wanted level of justice,you earn the punishment anyway.
(Or think about the reward that you can get if you are able to stay out of the hands of justice 'perhaps a reward meter that works the opposite of the justice meter decaying.Each half our logged in you stay out of the hands of the law your reward increases)
If you only want pve its simple.Just do what you do now and see to it that you never reach the new wanted justice level.
Its like one mass murdering all the kids in a kindergarten and then wants to remain unpunishable
,like "oh yea I murdered them all but just let me be,I dont want you to force your punishment on me
do not let the families prosecute me either.I have human rights lol.

--

As BenlocoDete mentions, the DB DLC brought graphical content that used to be much more family friendly & made casual slaughter rewarding.
I feel a certain injustice that I cant react every time I see a fellow alliance npc being slaughtered in grathwood.
There certainly are some holes in the current implementation of the justice system and it needs an upgrade.
Also,why not allow players to help uphold the law,instead of only offering the ability to break the law?

The only person who can enable the pvp lvl of the justice system is the misbehaving player,
so in no way are the pvp players having a say for who it gets enabled.
It only enables if they cross the line of what is morally acceptable by law.
For the justice levels under the wanted lvl ,everything should remain as it is now.
Nothing changing to the current justice levels.So they cant force you to pvp flee if it the justice levels lower than wanted remain the same as they are now!
So you are only flagged pvp if you really,really deserve it.You decide for yourself if you cross the line or not.
I can see why the dark brotherhood and thieves guild quests would need an upgrade too though.

Tipsy wrote: »

The only person who can enable the pvp lvl of the justice system is the misbehaving player,

Yes, through his PvE actions. Buy why should his PvE actions (in PvE areas as a part of PvE content) lead to PvP penalties?