The PvP Justice System Concept, now with opt-out

STEVIL

@BenLocoDete

I would suggest the insistence on forcing pvp into pve at all, here seen in discussion of justice expansion, that is the lock step blockage of creative development, if there is one.

I think an expansion of justice content pve would be quite popular and could fuel a wonderful dlc. Have seen and participated in threads about such. Even got mails trying to figure it out before official changes.

But those ideas dont hinder themselves with baggage such as unsubstantiated claims about how broken pve justice currently is or that it must have a pvp fix.

Also, let me say this, i got characters running quests across tamriel top level, lower zones, newbies across all factions.

"I do not support grind and exploits like auto-loot and wiping a whole town as the means to make starting new characters more viable. "

I have not been seeing this hapoen, really ever in any of the towns with guards or realky anywhere. So, can you tell us where these hoardes of town wasters have been running rampant and even if they exist are they mostly pve players choosing a very inefficient grind strategy or pvpers there for other reasons.

Seems like pvp-takeover-ransom is a cure for problems like how profit vs risk is off for crime (truth lower than other options) and preventing whole town slaughters by newbies? The pvp-Dr.Goode-Elixir?

Niastissa

BenLocoDete wrote: »

I'd really ask for people to restrain themselves from posting "I'll quit if it happens" because none of you know if I haven't quit already because that didn't happen, and I know that you couldn't care less about it.

The difference is this is primarily a PVE game with a little bit of PVP. There are undoubtably more PVE players. The PVE player requirements don't involve grieving the PVP players. Where as all the PVP players really want to be able to do is grief players.

If they made another mega server and made it all PVP but the original ones remained as is I would be fine with that if they could refrain from nerfing classes in PVE to "balance" classes in PVP. However I don't care if you threaten to quit if it doesn't happen. I'm pre quitting right now if I even think PVP will be forced down my throat regardless of if I'm currently questing and minding my own business.

Niastissa

STEVIL wrote: »

@BenLocoDete

I would suggest the insistence on forcing pvp into pve at all, here seen in discussion of justice expansion, that is the lock step blockage of creative development, if there is one.

I think an expansion of justice content pve would be quite popular and could fuel a wonderful dlc. Have seen and participated in threads about such. Even got mails trying to figure it out before official changes.

But those ideas dont hinder themselves with baggage such as unsubstantiated claims about how broken pve justice currently is or that it must have a pvp fix.

Also, let me say this, i got characters running quests across tamriel top level, lower zones, newbies across all factions.

"I do not support grind and exploits like auto-loot and wiping a whole town as the means to make starting new characters more viable. "

I have not been seeing this hapoen, really ever in any of the towns with guards or realky anywhere. So, can you tell us where these hoardes of town wasters have been running rampant and even if they exist are they mostly pve players choosing a very inefficient grind strategy or pvpers there for other reasons.

Seems like pvp-takeover-ransom is a cure for problems like how profit vs risk is off for crime (truth lower than other options) and preventing whole town slaughters by newbies? The pvp-Dr.Goode-Elixir?

I think it would be another Star War Galaxies NGE and mark the death of this game. I'd quit and never look back.

Tandor

BenLocoDete wrote: »

I'd really ask for people to restrain themselves from posting "I'll quit if it happens" because none of you know if I haven't quit already because that didn't happen, and I know that you couldn't care less about it.

But the OP specifically asked us to post here if we will quit the game if this specific concept gets implemented!

Dubhliam wrote: »

People can post here if they will quit the game if this specific concept gets implemented.
And don't generalize, talk for yourself - would you quit if this got to see the light of day?

Dubhliam

Since I was away for a couple of days, there are some changes that I have made since then, here is the list:

-changed this line in the Iron Wheel skill line section:

• Enforcers become more aware of criminal activity, unlocking notifications/an
  overhead Outlaw icon for Disreputable Outlaws, <crime in Area> notifications for Notorious Outlaws,
  reported crime radius for Fugitive Outlaws and map area/map Outlaw icon for Wanted
  Outlaws.

-also changed and moved these lines in the Heat level section to correspond to the revised Criminal Awareness passive:

• The Criminal Awareness passive enables Enforces to get a notification that there has been a crime in
  <Area Name> when an Outlaw becomes Disreputable with a Notorious bounty or higher gets spotted
  doing a crime. Character names are not mentioned.
• As long as the Outlaw's heat is Notorious or higherDisreputable, the Criminal
  Awareness passive enables Enforcers to see an Outlaw icon overhead the Outlaw. The icon is not visible while
  the Outlaw is in stealth.

These changes are made to make it more forgiving for Outlaws with lower heat levels - disreputable. Enforcers won't
be notified about Disreputable Outlaws, the only way to recognize a Disreputable Outlaw is to notice his icon
above his head - which is not visible if the Outlaw is in stealth.
-added these lines in the General section:

• Patrolling NPC Outlaws - counterparts to Guards with Clairvoyance are added in front of
  Refuge, Thieves Den and Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary entrances. Their patrol routes avoid Guard patrol routes.
  
• Edicts are disabled while in Justice combat.
• The Veil of Shadows passive now has an additional rank which prevents the new Enforcer Criminal
  Awareness passive from showing the overhead Outlaw icon unless at close range.

-added this line in the Heat levels section under WANTED:

• This level is reserved only for Heat. As soon as the Heat is depleted in time or by using
  Edicts, the Bounty level is reverted to Fugitive, no matter how high the Bounty is.

This effectively means that if an Outlaw manages to escape an Enforcer, as soon as he leaves combat he can unmark
himself from PvP by consuming a Pardon Edict.
-added this line in the Veteran Heists and Sacraments section:

• Enforcers may burn down barrels and other containers where Outlaws can hide or are currently
  hidden.

-added an actual summation in the TL;DR section:

• The Justice System remains intact as long as the Outlaw has no bounty. Other PCs cannot
  interact with or spot Outlaw crimes.
• When the Outlaw gets spotted doing a crime by an NPC, and has a bounty, he is eligible to be
  accosted by Enforcers (pops the "pay bounty" dialogue). Higher bounties help Enforcers to locate Outlaws more
  easily.
• Only by choosing the "flee" option in the "pay bounty dialogue" can Outlaws get marked for PvP
  fights, and that mark is disabled when the Heat (not bounty) is depleted.
• Other notable additions are mortal Guards, new- PvP mode for Heists and Sacraments, the new Prison
  instance and a law enforcer storyline.

Dubhliam

Tandor wrote: »

Tipsy wrote: »

The only person who can enable the pvp lvl of the justice system is the misbehaving player,

Yes, through his PvE actions. Buy why should his PvE actions (in PvE areas as a part of PvE content) lead to PvP penalties?

Because the current PvE penalties do not do the job right. Yes, even if there are no PC to chase you, this system has penalties for failure ranging from easy to less easy, but players always find a way to aviod them. People tend to forget that - penalties are already present, just not executed by PCs.
The System was never intended to be played the way some players currently play it - mindlessly killing everyone without even trying to be stealthy.
I mean, what is the point in having three levels of heat or bounty if 99 out of 100 times they will result the same: escaping a guard? And that is IF the player gets caught, which is a feat in itself.
I am not going to go into details here, but the current Justice System is being heavily abused/exploited. Some might even know that already, and deliberately want to boycott PvP Justice to keep exploiting.
Most of the participants in this thread (if not all) agree that the current PvE part of the Justice System is in need of improvement.

This is where the player base tends to gravitate to one of two solutions:

1. Players Enforcers - A simple solution, all the restrictions and hoops to prevent grieving are presented in this concept.
2. Some kind of a massive PvE overhaul that does not involve PC Enforcers.

I am obviously more in favor of the first option. However, I have been contemplating on a system that would include a "complete opt-out" as some like to call it, but fail to come up with a workable solution. The only person so far that has PMed me with extensive research and testing he did to come up with feasible PvE system and Guard AI improvements is @IndyWendieGo and she is not even opposed to the PvP implementation. The rest of you provide no workable solution to PvE Justice improvement, you just like to hate the PvP solution.

And let me be perfectly clear:
A rework of the Justice System in which an opt-out will leave players playing the exact same Justice system that is currently live will never get incorporated into my concept.

So here's a wild suggestion: instead of simply giving your opinions as to why you would not want to see option 1, why don't you become more constructive in terms of creating a workable option 2?

Tandor

Dubhliam wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Tipsy wrote: »

The only person who can enable the pvp lvl of the justice system is the misbehaving player,

Yes, through his PvE actions. Buy why should his PvE actions (in PvE areas as a part of PvE content) lead to PvP penalties?

Because the current PvE penalties do not do the job right. Yes, even if there are no PC to chase you, this system has penalties for failure ranging from easy to less easy, but players always find a way to aviod them. People tend to forget that - penalties are already present, just not executed by PCs.
The System was never intended to be played the way some players currently play it - mindlessly killing everyone without even trying to be stealthy.
I mean, what is the point in having three levels of heat or bounty if 99 out of 100 times they will result the same: escaping a guard? And that is IF the player gets caught, which is a feat in itself.
I am not going to go into details here, but the current Justice System is being heavily abused/exploited. Some might even know that already, and deliberately want to boycott PvP Justice to keep exploiting.
Most of the participants in this thread (if not all) agree that the current PvE part of the Justice System is in need of improvement.

This is where the player base tends to gravitate to one of two solutions:

1. Players Enforcers - A simple solution, all the restrictions and hoops to prevent grieving are presented in this concept.
2. Some kind of a massive PvE overhaul that does not involve PC Enforcers.

I am obviously more in favor of the first option. However, I have been contemplating on a system that would include a "complete opt-out" as some like to call it, but fail to come up with a workable solution. The only person so far that has PMed me with extensive research and testing he did to come up with feasible PvE system and Guard AI improvements is @IndyWendieGo and she is not even opposed to the PvP implementation. The rest of you provide no workable solution to PvE Justice improvement, you just like to hate the PvP solution.

And let me be perfectly clear:
A rework of the Justice System in which an opt-out will leave players playing the exact same Justice system that is currently live will never get incorporated into my concept.

So here's a wild suggestion: instead of simply giving your opinions as to why you would not want to see option 1, why don't you become more constructive in terms of creating a workable option 2?

Suggestions have already been made on that, but as this topic is about the addition of a PvP system to the Justice System that's what I've been concentrating on, including suggesting enhancements to an alternative PvP approach submitted earlier in the thread (which as I recall you thanked me for) and ways of making your system more acceptable to PvEers through the adoption of an absolute and unconditional opt-out (which you thought offered potential as I recall). So I am contributing constructively to this topic and if someone wants to start one about enhancing the Justice System without adding PvP I've no doubt I'll contribute to that as well.

In the meantime the onus isn't on PvEers to come up with an effective and workable opt-out mechanism for PvP, rather the onus is on the PvPers to do so in order to demonstrate to both the players and ZOS that PvP can be added to PvE content without alienating the PvEers. The present situation is that ZOS have determined that the two playstyles will not be mixed in the future (please tell me you didn't fall for the "nothing's impossible" line that all developers come up with when they've made a decision that some players don't like), and if you are to convince them otherwise then you are the one that needs to satisfy them that the two playstyles can in fact coexist - which you have yet to do.

I've also suggested here and in other similar threads that it would be more constructive for those who want to enhance the PvP aspect of the game to accept that it isn't going to be achieved through the addition of PvP to the Justice System which has already been rejected by ZOS and that they should instead help to shape and influence the new small-scale PvP through arenas and duelling that we have been told by ZOS is coming to the game. A couple of topics on that and strengthening the PvE in the Justice System would be infinitely more rewarding and more likely to achieve successful adoption than another attempt after the many that have sunk without trace before to flog the corpse of PvP in the Justice System.Those topics could go somewhere, this one isn't going anywhere. You clearly have the time, initiative and ability to draw up detailed proposals, those attributes could be put to so much more effective use in a topic that could actually help to shape and influence future content rather than one that pursues something that has already been rejected.

STEVIL

@Dubhliam

You jusy finished with the following.
And let me be perfectly clear:
A rework of the Justice System in which an opt-out will leave players playing the exact same Justice system that is currently live will never get incorporated into my concept.
So here's a wild suggestion: instead of simply giving your opinions as to why you would not want to see option 1, why don't you become more constructive in terms of creating a workable option 2

See, that part where you refuse to include a system which lets play proceed as it does now (though presumably expanded to have more) basically kicks the legs out of you latter faux challenge to stop being negativers.

You have drawn a line -that it is sn absolute truth thst the current system is broken, is being played wrong and parts of it have to go, be taken away so that the options thst exist now wont all be there... anf from thst foundation you leversge pvp as the cure and give lip srtvice to a pve alternative.

The key is this, many of us who want IMPROVEMENT to the justice system dont see it as broken or that any part of it absolutely has to go. We want more. Threads about that, about IMPROVING AND EXPANDING the justice content, not replacing it.

I have stated several times already in this thread why the current justice system isnt broken. It is not easier nor more profitable to spend time doing the crime stuff than the other common pve activities including questing, grinding, farming etc. Its actuslly maybe slighly less profitable on the whole in my experience. Thst is the metric, the measuring stick for broken you know -whether one outperforms the other alternatives. So, yes, a player playing well can avoid or escspe guards most of thr time if not all and get away with his bounty.

But similarly, a character can pick a good beach for mudcrab harvesting or a good spot for cat-stomping or a good quartet of delves for a solid rotation all without much risk if any at all and higher net gains.

So, for anyone honest about it the cries thst getting away from or avoiding guards most of the time makes justice broken fails the "have u been paying attention" test.

As for other people not playing the wsy you like..err... the way it was intended you have to have figured out bynnow thats gonna happen.

So, i and maybe some others likely wont be jumping thru your hoops trying to figure out how muchnof the justice system we are willing to sacrifice to try and get past your "never get incorporated" mandate. Why should we when we wsnt more snd you demand sacrifice in the name of improvement?

If it looks like a sheep and acts like a sheep and even smells like a sheep but it keeps coming back to trying to put sheep on the menu, its a wolf.

Dubhliam

@STEVIL ,
You certainly choose what to take from my posts, and what to leave out, don't you?

Performing criminal activity with absolute disregard to bounty is not how this system was envisioned.
There are three bounty levels, with no noticeable difference because they all result in successfully fleeing 99% of the time.
The system IS broken, if you so desperately refuse to admit it, I might be inclined to think you are one of those who abuse or exploit the system.

And yes, the system is being exploited. As I said, I won't post details here because it is against ToS.
Suffice to say the person that posted the guide how to exploit it says in one part of the video: "I just hope this doesn't get too popular, that Zenimax would know of which".

Even if I am to come up with two separate systems - opt out and opt in, the opt out system would have to account for all the exploits and abuses currently going on.
I am currently working on a solution with @IndyWendieGo that is making extensive tests on how to improve the Guard AI and the system as a whole, but I am doubtful it will ever be good enough to police the actions of criminal players.
Not to mention that his solution would take exponentially more resources from ZOS to implement than to simply let other players police the Justice System Outlaws.

FleetwoodSmack

One thing that I think we can all agree on is that the guards as they currently are, is that the way that the system acts and feels is less than acceptable. There are blind spots in the guards, they seem to cycle through abilities at random with very few conditions based on either player location, or if they player is actually fleeing. It's also incredibly easy to dupe the guards just by getting in certain architectures that the player can just jump into and the guards stand there spamming Talons when it won't even hit you. That doesn't bode well for an opt-out system having the guards as they currently are. It's not that the guards aren't hard enough, it's that they're incredibly easy to break. Being a good or bad player has nothing to do with it.

Now why is there exactly a problem with this? I had to code in my AI on various games (mainly Skyrim since a lot of ideas were seemingly taken from that and implemented into ESO, and let me be honest here I've yet to beat Skyrim because I've been so busy modding the AI to my personal tastes due to the same reasons). It's not as simple as people think, we can't just drag a slider and bam, it's fixed. Being that these are two vastly different engines, I don't know what I can expect in terms of AI from the staff. In Skyrim I can get the guards to chase me into other holds, however I had to completely disable the Civil War quests to make it look remotely right. Likewise with ESO, I'm sure that some changes to the mechanics of AI could -very well- break the lore that they (ZoS) have put into place within the game themselves. Not to mention that in the sense of MMOs, when have we really seen smart AI in terms of NPCs? They're no where near aggressive as to what one could mod in through the single player games.

And yes, I know... Single player games are vastly different. However there are other mediums I've used. NwN (the 2002 version) I had made a criminal system as well that had both an opt-in (PvP) or opt-out (non-PvP). Being the fact that back then the player count on servers were child's play compared to ESO, it was easy to build around obvious loopholes and exploits. For MMOs, it's again vastly different. I could handle how many checks went into it. ESO, it seems that the more checks that are made, the worse performance gets and Cyrodiil is a prime example on when server checks can go wrong. So not only could the lore in ESO come into question, but performance could as well. Which isn't good. It's not good at all. I've spent a couple of days trying to reduce those checks in the single player games in hopes that the concept could still work and I'm STILL doing just that.

Furthermore, people also have to remember that this whole post is a concept. It's something that @Dubhliam understands and I understand. It's not like it's going into the next patch. While I do agree with most of the people that are against the PvP side of this concept, I also have to agree with Dubhlaim. The current guards as they are, they're not good enough. Discussing this in PMs also leads me to believe that the current Justice System is -unfinished-. And even then, he's also right that the guards -are exploitable-. I encourage people who say otherwise to test it out yourselves, and reeeeeally test. The time and energy spent having a go at one another could be better spent on providing constructive alternatives for people like me to test in various mediums to build onto the concept.

Even if I don't agree with not having an opt out, I wouldn't stop playing the game. Why? Because I've made similar concepts. If NPC guards in ESO were already 'smarter' and there were less blind spots, it'd be somewhat easier to implement an opt out system. However since ZoS seemingly put them together in haste? There's all sorts of problems to address. And this is me watering it down. I can't even look under the hood of this hummer to figure out how the guards work, which leaves me at a considerable disadvantage on what to suggest. Sure, there are things that seem to work in my tests. However it's one thing to script it in Skyrim and then translate it to something that ESO could work with even if the staff picked it up.

So in closing, the problem really isn't PvP vs PvE players. The main source of the problem is a system that seems unfinished vs the awareness of it. Rather than going at each other, providing detailed feedback of your experiences with guards, what you found easy, what you found monotonous in terms of tasks, commenting on how cheap some of your escapes from guards felt, and other things like that would be extremely helpful for people testing and exploring concepts like these. Believe it or not, I'm as unbiased as they come in regards to things like this. But I'm right there with Dubhlaim when he said "I am doubtful it will ever be good enough to police the actions of criminal players". It's not that we don't have trust in scripting. It's that there are literally so many ways to abuse the current system, AI would simply be a band-aid. I've accepted that. And that's regardless of this concept or not. AI will always be finicky, regardless of the platform, the game, or the engine it uses.

STEVIL

@Dubhliam
So there is a mystery "exploit" which cannot be shown and so therefore nobody but you can verify that your PVP-panacea is a fix.
Its broken because people can beat the system 99% of the time?

So, just how often have you died while farming or questing in the normal progressions?

As for back to your unsubstantiated claim that it is not working as intended and successfully beating the challenge 99% of the time, answer me this - on what do you base the notion that a 99% succes rate isn't "working as intended"? give me one piece of non-opinion fact to support that notion.

me? i think it is. As stated many times and ignored repeatedly by you - when i look at other places and activites within the game to spend time - farming, grinding, questing, delving - pretty much everything except for world bosses, group dungeons, trials, VMSA VMOS VSO and those kinds of things - they all have a similar chance of success - about 995 with any intelligent play at all.

In many of those, you can use terrain to trick beasties into cases where they cant hurt you or you get them before they react or you evade them etc etc etc etc etc etc.

heck, in some world-boss daily quests, you can even rush in and get the goods for the quest without killing the world boss, if you are smart about it.

So, 99% doesn't seem out of whack for justice when compared to the standard PVE content that are the alternatives.

Additionally, those other activities have generally more profit per hour generated, when profit is the sum of all gains.

So, exploit and broken so far have not been shown or substantiated at all.

nor has your fix been shown to resolve these phantom breakages and mythical exploits.

So in summary, i dont think its broken or an exploit because it is on par with 90%+ of the alternative content and options for activity when looked at from success rate, risk and reward.

You think its broke or an exploit... why? you dont like it? You are certain 99% success was never the intent?

of all these activities, justice currently is the only one where:
You can lose already accumulated loot if you hit that 1%
You can have longer lasting impacts, staying away from certain areas, due to the timing of bounty reduction OR have to move more slowly and carefully to go into those areas and avoid guards OR spend resources to burn off the bounty.

i can slaughter mudcrab after mudcrab right in plain view, no slow sneaking, no time wasted and walk directly into the bank and the craft stations and reap my rewards - never wasting a moment with sneak or evade and make a lot more profit per hour invested than i can by sneaking, stealing or even murdering.

That points to mudcrabs being broke more than justice. (No not arguing for tougher mudcrabs, just challenging the so far unsubstantiated claim of broken and exploit and intent.)

@IndyWendieGo

You say:
One thing that I think we can all agree on is that the guards as they currently are, is that the way that the system acts and feels is less than acceptable. There are blind spots in the guards, they seem to cycle through abilities at random with very few conditions based on either player location, or if they player is actually fleeing. It's also incredibly easy to dupe the guards just by getting in certain architectures that the player can just jump into and the guards stand there spamming Talons when it won't even hit you. That doesn't bode well for an opt-out system having the guards as they currently are. It's not that the guards aren't hard enough, it's that they're incredibly easy to break. Being a good or bad player has nothing to do with it.

Do you find guards any more easily "broken" as you call it by players using cover etc than say bears or mudcrabs or various varmints and adversaries in delves? is that an issue or is it more like "since players cannot kill guards like they can the others, they tend to use those kind of maneuvers more against guards than the other "adversaries" encountered in delving, grinding, farming, questing etc? is it "worse" that a player can escape a guard by leading them into a physical barrier situation and get some time to recover or whatever than it is that a player can just kill the umpteenth pack of lions and bears without breaking a sweat?

I believe if there were unkillable bears and lions and delve bosses, you would see a lot of similar tactics and plans being executed to resolve that content too. Just like when soloign against some seemingly unsoloable world boss on quests, one might use an essence which grants invis and speed for 12s to rush in and grab the sack without fighting the boss and then (or before) pick off the lamias nearby in small groups to recover the pearls and fulfill the quest.

The fact that tactics and maneuvers for thwarting the guard and beating the Ai (or you cal, it "breaking") are being developed and used isn't a flaw, its a difference. most of the content you can get the 995 succes by just killing it. With guards, other tactics are required. unless of course that all gets changed into "just fight your way out" as some want.

Guards justice PVE etc right now if i take your partner @Dubhliam stats at face value for the sake of this paragraph being 995 successful is on par with most of the alternative content. The proceeds are likewise not higher than and often less than the others on an over time measure.

So, no we cannot all agree that the way things are now is unacceptable.

that doesn't mean there isn't room to expand it, to add more depth and flavor and story and opportunity. heck, i want a law and order DLC myself, but not to FIX the BROKEN system but to give more of it. Like Db and TG, i want a major quest line, a new guild or re-purposing of older guilds, cross-tamriel missions including REPEATABLE escort assignments (out of the fighter's guild) and investigation assignments (out of the mage's guild) that enchance and expand the cros-faction nature of these guilds and the "Knight of the Flame" styled guild working with them. i want thse missions to feature portals (like we have already seen from both mage and fighter guild) being used to send you to start the quest - so they expand on the cross-faction nature of these organization AND provide for one tamriel an alternative to the long walk and trudge thru zones to unlock a wayshrine here or there in remote regions..

of course, none of this would satisfy the @Dubhliam requirement that something be lost or taken from the current system or else proposals wont be accepted.

Not sure if you also concur with that notion of @Dubhliam that any solution which leaves what is possible now in play and expands to add more is DOA and that to be acceptable something has to go.

If so, not much point in continuing for those who have not yet had any evidecne of broken or exploit or anything to say justice is out of whack with the other content by anything close to warranting "exploit' or "broken" or "has to go or no deal" level of claim.

Some of us really want more and better, and just have seen nothing to say "but lets start by sacrificing" or "lets start with PVP-takeover-ransom."

Finally, i submit to you and mothers who are trying to say this is about exoploit and breaking and not about getting PVP-takeover-ransom into PVE activities - the ratio between the amount of "gains over time with 99% or so success rate" for theft is NOT even in the upper half of the options available - so if 99% and ease to win and such are your boogeymen, your grail to change, you should really really really be focusing on more proftitable, just as beatable if not more and with fewer hinderances that dont require even worrying about sneaking or "stucking or anything but mowing down the challenges with your standard rotation until inventory maxes. if that is the real "problem", that is.

STEVIL

@IndyWendieGo

You said:
So in closing, the problem really isn't PvP vs PvE players. The main source of the problem is a system that seems unfinished vs the awareness of it. Rather than going at each other, providing detailed feedback of your experiences with guards, what you found easy, what you found monotonous in terms of tasks, commenting on how cheap some of your escapes from guards felt, and other things like that would be extremely helpful for people testing and exploring concepts like these

So, i have three characters. i routinely pop them to a beachside wayshrine near a city.
i step right out on the Cp150-160 scaled beach and start trotting up it killing mudcrabs 1-3 at a time. i run past civilians and
guards alike as i continue the slaughter. i rarely even see the crabs getting to any of the characters, maybe one bite in two to three combats and never see my health drop below 95% at all. the mudcrabs drop tons of goodies - not only experience and gold but high end scraps, plenty of cp100, 150 160 clothing and stuff like that. they also drop mudcrab chitin which is able to be sold easily for 150-200 gold each - sells in no time. Did i mention Xp and increasing my skills and Cp? it pours in. there is even a chest stuck in a really out of sight spot thats right there - so now e talk even more stuff and like 116 gold each.

So easy to run repeat lather rinse with once in a thousand chance of a die, but hey when that rarity occurs, who cares? i keep all my stuff right. it cost a trifle of repairs but i keep all the stuff i just was farming. Then i just walk back to the lucky crab and slaughter it, collect the loot and get right back to this "as intended not a problem needing fixing yet" work.

Profit, xp, mats, etc falling like raindrops in Seattle. if it werent for craft bags would have to stop and take the 20 second walk past the guards to the bank and craft stations to decon and sell.a lot more often.

But every once in a while, i refuse to slow down or pause for even a second in the "works as intended and you are not angling to fix this with PVP at all" activities and attack a pair of crabs when a guard is nearby. the guard then goes red and attacks "my" mudcrabs. thats ok as long as i tag them too - cuz i get the loot still. However, once in a great while within this once in a great while, the guard delivers the killing blow on the last crab while i am launching an attack against that crab. The death of the last crab turns the guard to "civilian gray" and now my orphaned attack strikes the guard. (I refuse to use the innocent immunity flag for immersion reasons. I like the reality immersion that when in a crowded battlefield with friendlies, civilians and enemies you should have to be careful with aimed single target attacks to avoid hitting innocents IF of course you cannot just spam all the e AOE attacks which are innocent safe and way less risky in those situations.)

So now, thru no fault of my own, i have a hostile guard and bounty on the beach situation.

So, of course, i swim out a bit... because the guard is not gonna come swimming out in his heavy armor. if i really need to i chug my "stay outta jail" essense which gives immunity to cc, invisible and health" which always buys enough time to swim far enough or otherwise evade. it would be sooooo friggin' ironic if the essense used chitin, wouldn;t it? but no it uses more normal ingredients not the new ones from Db.

But this guard bug has just caused me to have to slow down and wait out my extremely profitable activities. unless i want to burn the leniencies i have or walk up and pay the guard after waiting for the heat to drop (keeping all the loot except the bounty), i have to log out and go login with my other alt to run the beach with them for a while gathering more loot since they are of another faction - so the dead crabs are right back as well as often the chest. (Now there its maybe a cp150 beach but hey, who cares.)

So, as you can see from the whole of the above example, this guard issue needs addressing.

How would you suggest we fix the clear guard justice problem seen here because clearly its out of whack with the other stuff?

NOTE: this ISNT BS. its real and has happened to me more than once in the exact circumstance described.

So this isn't some mystery invisible exploit or unsubstantiated broken or ypothetical town slaughter issue but an actula description of events in play.

So, if the guard is the part of that that you think is too easy, too profitable, too exploitable when compared with other content please show us the way to fix it and let me get more quickly back to my massively safer and more profitable crabsmacking.

You wanted examples of guard issues - here you go.

Like the teachers say - please show your work.

And thanks so much for this.

FleetwoodSmack

Do you find guards any more easily "broken" as you call it by players using cover etc than say bears or mudcrabs or various varmints and adversaries in delves?

@STEVIL Yes, I do. Being the fact that there are mechanics involved that cause them to break doesn't involve mudcrabs. So that's kind of irrelevant. It's not the subject of how much gold you can get either. It's about people glitching the guards where the guards do NOT work as intended to get that gold with no penalties involved. That's considered exploitation. If you think that glitching the guards isn't exploiting, then there's clearly a disconnect here. Don't know why you think that mudcrab farming and guard glitching are the same thing, but they're not. I promise they're not. Getting into a spot where the guard doesn't recognize where it stalls for a few minutes, clearly trying to keep engaging the player, and then it just stops. No stealth, no skill required. To me, yeah, that's definitely something that's broken. Instead of casting Talons, they should have been casting Chains.

The fact that tactics and maneuvers for thwarting the guard and beating the Ai (or you cal, it "breaking") are being developed and used isn't a flaw, its a difference.

The problem with this statement is that I don't think you understand what I mean, so I have to disagree. AI is a very finicky thing. In ESO there's barely any conditionals with the guards (or what it seems like), especially in terms on how to exploit them. I do expect them to change something they say is finished, which it feels like it's clearly not. How in depth have you gone into the justice system with the guards? Legitimate question. Because I've been gathering bounties like crazy purposely, having players send me tells that I'm a terrible player for getting them, and noting down the flaws I've experienced.

I'm no stranger to AI. I've had to fix terrible AI in the past with other TES games and other games not related to it. From my experience, it's not so easy. If you have any constructive alternatives (seriously, this isn't a jab at you or anyone else, because I'll throw it on my list of things to test out), I'm all ears. How would you keep the guards able to apply fair and standard attacks on the player without them glitching out when you're somewhere where obviously it's navigation doesn't understand/reach/recognize? What happens when the guard can 'get stuck' on a clutter item (furniture, crates, barrels), causing a clean escape where you know you wouldn't have escaped? What happens when you can replicate both of those with just a little setup? All these things are something that's concerning the OP (along with a lot of other things that he's disclosed in this thread). It's also something that concerns me regardless of if this idea by the OP was posted or not. It's an issue that needs addressed, probably better suited in it's own topic, but it's just as relevant here.

However if you're saying I'm holding PvEers ransom because I'm talking about the awareness of guard AI, that's simply preposterous. I've stated from the beginning that I've been for an opt-out function, I even added an idea to one of your posts, and it's clearly in the PMs I've had with the OP. However it's his idea and I'm not going to force him to use something I suggest or not. I just provide him with the feedback this thread is extremely lacking. Tandor had a good start with the function he first suggested, so I've been running ideas about that with Dubhliam in PMs. I haven't completely 'jumped' on board with PvP in the Justice System. I'm just choosing to remain unbiased in the conversation (PvP/PvE) from here on out other than talking about how to make PvE guards suitable enough for the OP to add opting-out into the idea. I hope that you can understand where I'm coming from in that sense. If not, after the topic gets back to it's relevancy I can pick this part of the conversation back up at a later time. But right now, I'm more focused on trying to explain to you that I'm working on possible solutions to the opting out. That starts with the guard AI.

As for your second post, let me make sure I'm getting this right and correct me if I'm wrong or not.

the guard then goes red and attacks "my" mudcrabs. thats ok as long as i tag them too - cuz i get the loot still. However, once in a great while within this once in a great while, the guard delivers the killing blow on the last crab while i am launching an attack against that crab. The death of the last crab turns the guard to "civilian gray" and now my orphaned attack strikes the guard.

So you're farming mudcrabs. You get too close to a guard and the guard charges the mudcrabs, it gets the last hit, and your hit that was meant for the mudcrab goes onto the guard. Honestly, that's sort of a grey area though I'd say that's pretty buggy to say the least. Depending how far out you are from civilians, Guards imo shouldn't be attacking mudcrabs the player (any player) has aggro'ed let alone any enemy NPC (unless it's zones like Cyrodiil) especially if they're not close to any other civilian NPCs.

As far as fixing it, it fits into a lot of the ideas I've been talking about with guard AI and conditionals. If the AI in ESO does have conditionals in place, they're pretty flimsy with the way they feel. For instance when I'm on an elevated surface, the guard should be able to detect it. In a really watered down, simple explanation (closest thing people here will get to me 'showing my work' being that the mod I've been working on is going to be worked on more in depth after Skyrim SE comes out); If the player isn't on or near (specific set of coordinates/location) on x/y/z axes, Then use Chains. Else if player is in or near (specific set of coordinates/location) on x/y/z axes, use A,B, or C (a, b, c being other abilities that can be used). However in a lot of places I've been able to get to in ESO, this doesn't happen. They'll sit there, spamming Talons and then after a few minutes of that, they'll go back to their pre-determined path. While what happens to me is entirely different, it sounds like the conditions behind the mudcrab vs the guard was skewed.

But this is also why I say it's a grey area, if there's a guard on the beach close to a town, it's probable that the boundary for that town is quite close. Regardless of proximity of civilian NPCs, it could see hostile enemies as a threat and kill them because it's possible that they're also part of some 'Protector faction'? Or it may be simply because they're scripted to attack all enemy hostiles. Which for a mudcrab, I really think they should ignore those if the player attacks the crabs. Does it happen often? Like every time that guard's close? Because as it stands, when they added the guards (to my knowledge) they were put there to accost the player. Not mudcrabs. So that too, would definitely be something to throw on the AI list of problems. If I were to fix it, I'd have it detect if they were a target-able player. If enemy hostile is PC (player character), then initiate attack. Else if enemy hostile is not a PC, then disengage and act accordingly.

Obviously I'm using butchered half-arsed psuedocode, but you get the idea. However the problem again, is that when you apply too many checks, performance can and probably will come into question. If too many people are causing a lot of checks at once that's where we can run into lag, abnormal pings, slideshow gameplay, and a slew of other issues. It could even stall the checks in place on what they're supposed to gather, and simply not work at all. That's something that ZoS has to figure out if they choose to revamp the guard AI, and again I really think they should regardless if this idea was made or not. I was pretty bummed when I could stand in a certain spot and the guards just simply ignored me. Not because I got caught with a bounty, but because I was expecting more to happen and it didn't. Especially after how much was hyped about it. It turned me off of DB and TG all together. When I got access to them, it felt the same way. I feel like I'm wasting 4000someodd crowns for two DLCs that didn't add anything to the Justice System in terms of skill. Heists and dailies? Sure. But it didn't really add much to the base-game patch in regards to the base guards that COULD be better.

BenLocoDete

STEVIL wrote: »

@BenLocoDete

I would suggest the insistence on forcing pvp into pve at all, here seen in discussion of justice expansion, that is the lock step blockage of creative development, if there is one.

I think an expansion of justice content pve would be quite popular and could fuel a wonderful dlc. Have seen and participated in threads about such. Even got mails trying to figure it out before official changes.

But those ideas dont hinder themselves with baggage such as unsubstantiated claims about how broken pve justice currently is or that it must have a pvp fix.

Also, let me say this, i got characters running quests across tamriel top level, lower zones, newbies across all factions.

"I do not support grind and exploits like auto-loot and wiping a whole town as the means to make starting new characters more viable. "

I have not been seeing this hapoen, really ever in any of the towns with guards or realky anywhere. So, can you tell us where these hoardes of town wasters have been running rampant and even if they exist are they mostly pve players choosing a very inefficient grind strategy or pvpers there for other reasons.

Seems like pvp-takeover-ransom is a cure for problems like how profit vs risk is off for crime (truth lower than other options) and preventing whole town slaughters by newbies? The pvp-Dr.Goode-Elixir?

I've seen this happen in front of captain Rana's office, the little farm with cows and farmers just outside the building. In that same area crafting building, just a little ahead as well.

Have witnessed mass murder on the shores of Vulkhel Guard.

So far Khenarti's Roost is the worst case, with dozens of wounded NPCs lying on the beach, and including the ones around the Morning stone, and the ones taken care by that town's healer.

And at the Glenumbra plaza, I've seen piles of bodies and one player respawning constantly and going on the spree.

Note that in none of these cases it happened only once. In fact, they are a big let down for my starting characters as I focus on RP and have to deal with such an unjustified and game-breaking behavior.

Tandor wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

I'd really ask for people to restrain themselves from posting "I'll quit if it happens" because none of you know if I haven't quit already because that didn't happen, and I know that you couldn't care less about it.

But the OP specifically asked us to post here if we will quit the game if this specific concept gets implemented!

Dubhliam wrote: »

People can post here if they will quit the game if this specific concept gets implemented.
And don't generalize, talk for yourself - would you quit if this got to see the light of day?

Well then I'll just leave in here that the constant backtracking of ZOS has let me down for so many times, i.e. the sudden drop of the roleplaying server and the full justice system, that unfortunately a game I was very much hyped to be playing(in fact pre-ordered it) as the time goes by gives me more reasons to stay away because it has clearly lost the commitment it once claimed to have with its community or at least with me. This game is indeed unbalanced when it comes to appeasing both sides, and still, people claim it to stay the way it is, disregarding the other severed PvP content.

And add that no, I wouldn't leave the game because of PvP junction with PvE but in fact, would be invited to play, not so much for PvP since I hardly do PvP, but for the options and increased interaction a player can experience instead of simply being restricted because "x player can cause problems". Especially when "y player" is already ruining it for not only me.

ESO has in a shameless way became a PvE-exclusive game and might as well shut down Cyrodiil and provide for once a sincere response to the passionate PvPers that still support this game.

FleetwoodSmack

I definitely have to agree with @BenLocoDete on the principle that ZoS has backtracked quite a few times in regards to promised systems and then backing out of them completely without an in depth explanation. It's kind of looking like Spellcrafting will be getting the same treatment, which would be pretty sad as that's another thing I was expecting.

I can also confirm that I'm one of those people that lays waste to pretty much most NPCs in Wayrest, especially after I've been testing the guard AI for the OP and playing with the Blade of Woe. Lately I've been doing it in Daggerfall to basically test more in terms of what I can get away with (since it's easier than just going at them with a weapon that may or may not kill them just yet, she's barely level 32 and I'm lazy). My mindless fun with slaughtering though, I generally try to steer away from the RP crowd, because I -do- know that that (that being the mindless maiming for tests or just in general) can be disrupting even though they know that not everyone RPs all the time. However others aren't so considerate and do it right in the middle of an RP guild event.

Regardless of RPing or not, there's loops I (and others) can do that have no challenge or skill what so ever. So again, I can see where BenLocoDete and Dubhliam are coming from in that sense. They also don't make it easy to NOT be conspicuous with doing it either, which is kind of sad when you think about it. You see all these people in stealth, maiming 90% of the town population and the guards are just oblivious. So are the people around NPCs you kill. By the dye station in Wayrest, you can kill two NPCs and they aren't the wiser. Walk behind the building and you can get the Khajiit by the dog. All of them are in clear line of sight and they just don't even react. I know they shouldn't see me, but should they be seeing the person I'm stabbing over and over in the chest, while choking on their own blood right -in front- of them? Something has to give somewhere.

Dahveed

Don't have time to read everything you wrote, but you have clearly put a lot of thought into this.

I just want to say that I for one am disappointed that there is no world PvP in Tamriel.

I remember back in Vanilla WoW the fear of getting slaughtered at any time added an exciting (if stressful!) element to the game.

Nowadays all online games like this are too sterilized for us special little snowflakes so that nothing bad ever happens. It's a shame.

I hope they can implement something that can really shake things up in the world!

Tandor

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

I definitely have to agree with @BenLocoDete on the principle that ZoS has backtracked quite a few times in regards to promised systems and then backing out of them completely without an in depth explanation. It's kind of looking like Spellcrafting will be getting the same treatment, which would be pretty sad as that's another thing I was expecting.

They've been very open about dropping spellcrafting from their foreseeable plans from very early on in the game's launch.

Unlike single player games, MMOs are very evolutionary and are subject to continual change. People are very happy when something they want that was never promised is adopted, like small-scale PvP for example, but very unhappy when something they want that was promised is dropped. I guess that's human nature.

FleetwoodSmack

Tandor wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

I definitely have to agree with @BenLocoDete on the principle that ZoS has backtracked quite a few times in regards to promised systems and then backing out of them completely without an in depth explanation. It's kind of looking like Spellcrafting will be getting the same treatment, which would be pretty sad as that's another thing I was expecting.

They've been very open about dropping spellcrafting from their foreseeable plans from very early on in the game's launch.

Unlike single player games, MMOs are very evolutionary and are subject to continual change. People are very happy when something they want that was never promised is adopted, like small-scale PvP for example, but very unhappy when something they want that was promised is dropped. I guess that's human nature.

Definitely tends to be. I know they put it on the backburner shortly after the 'exodus', which if I recall correctly they did the same with the Justice System in terms of PvP (been a bit since then). I mean I won't stop playing if they get rid of it, because regardless of what ZoS has flubbed up or went back on they HAVE tried to make an effort recently to at least listen so that's a little promising of the state of the game in general. I just hope that they can at least try to fix some parts of the game in which it seems a little lackluster. Aaaaand maybe a Welwa mount. Cause I want one.

STEVIL

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

I can also confirm that I'm one of those people that lays waste to pretty much most NPCs in Wayrest, especially after I've been testing the guard AI for the OP and playing with the Blade of Woe. Lately I've been doing it in Daggerfall to basically test more in terms of what I can get away with (since it's easier than just going at them with a weapon that may or may not kill them just yet, she's barely level 32 and I'm lazy). My mindless fun with slaughtering though, I generally try to steer away from the RP crowd, because I -do- know that that (that being the mindless maiming for tests or just in general) can be disrupting even though they know that not everyone RPs all the time. However others aren't so considerate and do it right in the middle of an RP guild event.

Regardless of RPing or not, there's loops I (and others) can do that have no challenge or skill what so ever. So again, I can see where BenLocoDete and Dubhliam are coming from in that sense. They also don't make it easy to NOT be conspicuous with doing it either, which is kind of sad when you think about it. You see all these people in stealth, maiming 90% of the town population and the guards are just oblivious. So are the people around NPCs you kill. By the dye station in Wayrest, you can kill two NPCs and they aren't the wiser. Walk behind the building and you can get the Khajiit by the dog. All of them are in clear line of sight and they just don't even react. I know they shouldn't see me, but should they be seeing the person I'm stabbing over and over in the chest, while choking on their own blood right -in front- of them? Something has to give somewhere.

You mention using blade of woe (stealth approach from behind), having cased out loops to run to (i presume) eliminate interference chances and either a bunch of single folks taken out (like the behind building dog khajit) or ones outside the perception range of the guards (or maybe blocked not sure) and toss those under the banner of "no challenge or skill" whatsoever.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that characterization. I would judge stealth from behind attacks, casing out timing routes, hitting targets specifically out of sight of potential adversaries as SKILL related operations. When i approach raider camps, i can either choose to rush right in and take on a half dozen or more at once, or take time and pick off the exteriors one (or one group) at a time and work my way in. Sometimes that means being slower but sometimes it just means chosing a path that lets one fight resolve befort the others notice and so it doesn't slow things down.

But for me, i think, there may be some things we can agree on.

I HAVE NO DOUBT you can move around portions of some towns as you describe killing individuals using blade of woe, timed routes to avoid notice, hitting specific targets in places where you can avoid detection and do this to accumulate targets all day in the right spot if done well. using Blade of woe makes it quicker and safer because there aren't non-one-shots which can lead to bounty - at the expense of experience gains!!!

I have no doubt that if and when you acquire bounty, if you are in a place you know how to use, you can escape guard pursuit with a high probability too. You know what to do. You know their weaknesses. You can "exploit their weaknesses" which in NOT THE SAME as a game exploit.

I haven't said otherwise. I agree with those fully. As i have said "succeeding" against the "challenge" of the justice stuff is easy very easy - BUT...

As i noted, while that challenge is easy to beat the methods for beating it often involve STEALTH, POSITION and TIMING which serve to make it as i have described a "speedbump" affecting how fast you can rack up kills. That, combined with the nature of the loot from the targets, affects it payout over time and some options like BoW directly reduce XP gains.

So one aspect i will see if you can agree with me on even if you see no skill in any of the above and we disagre on that:

So @IndyWendieGo will you agree with me that on the whole:
Running bounty free guard avoidance patterns like you describe produces less gain over time in rewards (sometimes due to the need for slower setups and waiting for things to clear maybe) when compared to grinding in well selected sites or even doing a good delve rotation between 3-4 delves (mmmm...pricey motif drops)?

Those grinds and delves can be burned through with almost no chance of failure. they can be run through without needing any stealth approaches or timing routes (though for grinds good pre-fight testing can find an optimal path just like with the justice stuff) and they lack ANY chance of "lasting" impact or affecting where you can go once you are done with them (like the bounty does if you manage to screw up.)

STEVIL

BenLocoDete wrote: »

I've seen this happen in front of captain Rana's office, the little farm with cows and farmers just outside the building. In that same area crafting building, just a little ahead as well.

Have witnessed mass murder on the shores of Vulkhel Guard.

So far Khenarti's Roost is the worst case, with dozens of wounded NPCs lying on the beach, and including the ones around the Morning stone, and the ones taken care by that town's healer.

And at the Glenumbra plaza, I've seen piles of bodies and one player respawning constantly and going on the spree.

Note that in none of these cases it happened only once. In fact, they are a big let down for my starting characters as I focus on RP and have to deal with such an unjustified and game-breaking behavior.

Ok so, let me say two of my four new characters have been through those exact same areas over the last month. I have spent pursuing quests and advancing some time in those recently. I have not see what you describe. These are of course SPECIFICALLY since DB

I also of course had ten other characters advance, three of which were AD (maybe four) and two (or three) DC. (i deleted two vet characters at one point and dont remember their affiliations.)

Dont recall seeing mass slaughter. These of course pre-date DB

I have seen folks kill NPCs with abandon usually in out of the way places where there aren't guards however. they accrue bounty that they then either wait out doing non-guard areas or log-out. Either way, no runs into towns and merchants for a while unless they expend resources. But... that doesn't make them more profit over time than grinding or delving in similarly favorable setups?

But back to your examples They all seem to share one common theme - they are all in introductory areas? Bleakrock, khenarti, Vulkel, Glenumbra - which makes me wonder?

Are you describing higher level PCs runni9ng back to lower level zones and mowing down under-levelled opposition?

because, if so, that skews my assessment of how much the gains are by a great bit. The XP gains from the killing and stacks of bodies would be next to nothing. That cuts the already subpar payout when compared to grinding or delving against leveled targets even further.

i dont doubt some would do it, just as some might go to grind lower level enemies or do lower level delves (though IMX that may be more commonly doing lower level public dungeons solo or world bosses or anchors more for achievements than anything else.)

But do you have any idea whether these are players gaining full levelled rewards or ones taking an easier route and gaining even less gains over time by fishing in the kids pond?

Its a directly applicable question since "broken" in a game sense does take into account gains over time.

thanks

FleetwoodSmack

STEVIL wrote: »

You mention using blade of woe (stealth approach from behind), having cased out loops to run to (i presume) eliminate interference chances and either a bunch of single folks taken out (like the behind building dog khajit) or ones outside the perception range of the guards (or maybe blocked not sure) and toss those under the banner of "no challenge or skill" whatsoever.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that characterization. I would judge stealth from behind attacks, casing out timing routes, hitting targets specifically out of sight of potential adversaries as SKILL related operations. When i approach raider camps, i can either choose to rush right in and take on a half dozen or more at once, or take time and pick off the exteriors one (or one group) at a time and work my way in. Sometimes that means being slower but sometimes it just means chosing a path that lets one fight resolve befort the others notice and so it doesn't slow things down.

What I'm saying is that there are NPCs that are clearly in the line of sight, even in some cases as the guard that passes over the bridge and stands by the light post. Never even incurred a bounty when I know I should have. The NPC I slaughtered was realistically close enough to be more than noticeable, which is is part of the problem people are talking about. There was no skill involved for me and others that've done the same thing and bringing more awareness to situations like that needs to happen. SOMETHING to at least light a fire about where the Justice System is lacking, PvP or not.

You can "exploit their weaknesses" which in NOT THE SAME as a game exploit.

You can agree to disagree, but a guard that cannot reasonably use an ability when they're clearly trying to and it NOT registering on FTC when they're certainly spamming in my mind, is considered exploitable. It's not about the gold. It's not about the gains. No offense, but I don't know any other way to explain that to you. What I'm talking about in this specific instance is completely different than tactics that you describe later here;

As i noted, while that challenge is easy to beat the methods for beating it often involve STEALTH, POSITION and TIMING which serve to make it as i have described a "speedbump" affecting how fast you can rack up kills.

I don't have to use stealth, position, and timing 90% of time because these 'weaknesses' you're claiming are obvious flaws within the game's mechanics in regards to guards. And people have been catching onto it. So again, you can agree to disagree, but that doesn't fix the rampant problem that's been going around even more so as of late. This is why I'm all ears for other theoretic solutions to test and see if it would fit. If not, then I honestly don't know what else to tell you. I agree with you on some parts, however having dealt with AI personally these things I just simply won't easily ignore.

So @IndyWendieGo will you agree with me that on the whole:
Running bounty free guard avoidance patterns like you describe produces less gain over time in rewards (sometimes due to the need for slower setups and waiting for things to clear maybe) when compared to grinding in well selected sites or even doing a good delve rotation between 3-4 delves (mmmm...pricey motif drops)?

I'll refer you back to my above post directed to you @STEVIL about how I said it's not about the gains or gold. I could care less what people pick up or loot. It's the simple fact that you can clearly take advantage of poorly implemented AI, exploiting it, and encouraging others to do so. I sincerely hope you are not one of those people. In answering your question, you have to make sure that you're asking the right one. Cause I'm not talking about gold and gains. It's irrelevant to AI.

BenLocoDete

Dahveed wrote: »

Don't have time to read everything you wrote, but you have clearly put a lot of thought into this.

I just want to say that I for one am disappointed that there is no world PvP in Tamriel.

I remember back in Vanilla WoW the fear of getting slaughtered at any time added an exciting (if stressful!) element to the game.

Nowadays all online games like this are too sterilized for us special little snowflakes so that nothing bad ever happens. It's a shame.

I hope they can implement something that can really shake things up in the world!

Absolutely, while people show their concerns regarding being approached by another player from committing crimes within civil areas, I feel far more concerning ESO falling into MMO clichès like crown storing skill lines and privileging ESO+ to split the community in two(like having those really helpful UI mods with plenty of combat info available but fighting against someone in console with absolutely no way to get them and thus having to rely on raw skill or luck).

One Tamriel is really welcome and, fortunately, they have it coming, as its being requested since before launch for them to drop the alliance/race barriers dividing friends within different groups. And just as well is necessary to drop others restrictions not to make people unhappy and afraid of others, but to carve the way for a broader approach to the social aspect the game has to offer and the challenges and opportunities it can evolve into.

Elder Scrolls Online has the potential Bethesda with their TES titles doesn't, that is offer in one single game all the provinces known to us and ways of endlessly expand this world, not only with new areas but changing existing ones, to make it feel alive, i.e. an old broken bridge is being repaired in a new update that will make those areas beyond that bridge available after a joint effort from both counts, who just recently resolved a feud of centuries between their families, and thus have the disposition to fix that bridge... the potential is endless.

This is why I don't look forward to Bethesda TES anymore, but to ZOS TES, the ways they can offer immersion and a believable Tamriel for us to experience that goes far beyond putting us to grind this item and next month grind this other one and buy that store-exclusive dying set.

Zenimax Online produces a social game and has the potential to expand on it, and cater to the public interested in the social aspect meanwhile Bethesda can have their approach with the single-player ones and cater that specific public.

Now crippling ZOS from offering more social options and at the same time having sure that Bethesda won't either should hinder the setting more restrictions to its potential than ways it could explore the franchise.

I can only dream about playing Oblivion, (and I say Oblivion!) wherein a player decides to take the road from the Imperial City to Cheydinhal to buy supplies exclusive to that region, and being approached by a bandit, another player whose role is being a marauder who preys on merchants and unprepared travellers, and made his home under Fort Urasek ruins.

The traveller then gets robbed, and fortunate enough not killed, but in the next time will make sure to group up with another player, maybe have a friend go alongside or hire a mercenary(another player) who sits in the Talos Plaza all day and works as a muscle to local merchants and travellers. Both would take up the heartlands and finally arrive to fort Urasek, this time outnumbering the marauder, and getting not only that merchants goods back(some of them) but also other trinkets that that player got from other traveller or adventurers.

This is definitely the kind of game and experience I'd expect and hope for the future of ESO, not having thousands of items in a bank and carrying other hundreds within the inventory, ascending to godhood with every next update, trivializing power and status, but play a role in a story that would be part of a book in the series, one of those hundreds we barely read, describing an immersive experience of how would someone alive and reasonably mortal survive and die in Tamriel.

STEVIL

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Do you find guards any more easily "broken" as you call it by players using cover etc than say bears or mudcrabs or various varmints and adversaries in delves?

@STEVIL Yes, I do. Being the fact that there are mechanics involved that cause them to break doesn't involve mudcrabs. So that's kind of irrelevant. It's not the subject of how much gold you can get either. It's about people glitching the guards where the guards do NOT work as intended to get that gold with no penalties involved. That's considered exploitation. If you think that glitching the guards isn't exploiting, then there's clearly a disconnect here. Don't know why you think that mudcrab farming and guard glitching are the same thing, but they're not. I promise they're not. Getting into a spot where the guard doesn't recognize where it stalls for a few minutes, clearly trying to keep engaging the player, and then it just stops. No stealth, no skill required. To me, yeah, that's definitely something that's broken. Instead of casting Talons, they should have been casting Chains.

The fact that tactics and maneuvers for thwarting the guard and beating the Ai (or you cal, it "breaking") are being developed and used isn't a flaw, its a difference.

The problem with this statement is that I don't think you understand what I mean, so I have to disagree. AI is a very finicky thing. In ESO there's barely any conditionals with the guards (or what it seems like), especially in terms on how to exploit them. I do expect them to change something they say is finished, which it feels like it's clearly not. How in depth have you gone into the justice system with the guards? Legitimate question. Because I've been gathering bounties like crazy purposely, having players send me tells that I'm a terrible player for getting them, and noting down the flaws I've experienced.

I'm no stranger to AI. I've had to fix terrible AI in the past with other TES games and other games not related to it. From my experience, it's not so easy. If you have any constructive alternatives (seriously, this isn't a jab at you or anyone else, because I'll throw it on my list of things to test out), I'm all ears. How would you keep the guards able to apply fair and standard attacks on the player without them glitching out when you're somewhere where obviously it's navigation doesn't understand/reach/recognize? What happens when the guard can 'get stuck' on a clutter item (furniture, crates, barrels), causing a clean escape where you know you wouldn't have escaped? What happens when you can replicate both of those with just a little setup? All these things are something that's concerning the OP (along with a lot of other things that he's disclosed in this thread). It's also something that concerns me regardless of if this idea by the OP was posted or not. It's an issue that needs addressed, probably better suited in it's own topic, but it's just as relevant here.

However if you're saying I'm holding PvEers ransom because I'm talking about the awareness of guard AI, that's simply preposterous. I've stated from the beginning that I've been for an opt-out function, I even added an idea to one of your posts, and it's clearly in the PMs I've had with the OP. However it's his idea and I'm not going to force him to use something I suggest or not. I just provide him with the feedback this thread is extremely lacking. Tandor had a good start with the function he first suggested, so I've been running ideas about that with Dubhliam in PMs. I haven't completely 'jumped' on board with PvP in the Justice System. I'm just choosing to remain unbiased in the conversation (PvP/PvE) from here on out other than talking about how to make PvE guards suitable enough for the OP to add opting-out into the idea. I hope that you can understand where I'm coming from in that sense. If not, after the topic gets back to it's relevancy I can pick this part of the conversation back up at a later time. But right now, I'm more focused on trying to explain to you that

I

'm working on possible solutions to the opting out. That starts with the guard AI.

As for your second post, let me make sure I'm getting this right and correct me if I'm wrong or not.

the guard then goes red and attacks "my" mudcrabs. thats ok as long as i tag them too - cuz i get the loot still. However, once in a great while within this once in a great while, the guard delivers the killing blow on the last crab while i am launching an attack against that crab. The death of the last crab turns the guard to "civilian gray" and now my orphaned attack strikes the guard.

So you're farming mudcrabs. You get too close to a guard and the guard charges the mudcrabs, it gets the last hit, and your hit that was meant for the mudcrab goes onto the guard. Honestly, that's sort of a grey area though I'd say that's pretty buggy to say the least. Depending how far out you are from civilians, Guards imo shouldn't be attacking mudcrabs the player (any player) has aggro'ed let alone any enemy NPC (unless it's zones like Cyrodiil) especially if they're not close to any other civilian NPCs.

As far as fixing it, it fits into a lot of the ideas I've been talking about with guard AI and conditionals. If the AI in ESO does have conditionals in place, they're pretty flimsy with the way they feel. For instance when I'm on an elevated surface, the guard should be able to detect it. In a really watered down, simple explanation (closest thing people here will get to me 'showing my work' being that the mod I've been working on is going to be worked on more in depth after Skyrim SE comes out); If the player isn't on or near (specific set of coordinates/location) on x/y/z axes, Then use Chains. Else if player is in or near (specific set of coordinates/location) on x/y/z axes, use A,B, or C (a, b, c being other abilities that can be used). However in a lot of places I've been able to get to in ESO, this doesn't happen. They'll sit there, spamming Talons and then after a few minutes of that, they'll go back to their pre-determined path. While what happens to me is entirely different, it sounds like the conditions behind the mudcrab vs the guard was skewed.

But this is also why I say it's a grey area, if there's a guard on the beach close to a town, it's probable that the boundary for that town is quite close. Regardless of proximity of civilian NPCs, it could see hostile enemies as a threat and kill them because it's possible that they're also part of some 'Protector faction'? Or it may be simply because they're scripted to attack all enemy hostiles. Which for a mudcrab, I really think they should ignore those if the player attacks the crabs. Does it happen often? Like every time that guard's close? Because as it stands, when they added the guards (to my knowledge) they were put there to accost the player. Not mudcrabs. So that too, would definitely be something to throw on the AI list of problems. If I were to fix it, I'd have it detect if they were a target-able player. If enemy hostile is PC (player character), then initiate attack. Else if enemy hostile is not a PC, then disengage and act accordingly.

Obviously I'm using butchered half-arsed psuedocode, but you get the idea. However the problem again, is that when you apply too many checks, performance can and probably will come into question. If too many people are causing a lot of checks at once that's where we can run into lag, abnormal pings, slideshow gameplay, and a slew of other issues. It could even stall the checks in place on what they're supposed to gather, and simply not work at all. That's something that ZoS has to figure out if they choose to revamp the guard AI, and again I really think they should regardless if this idea was made or not. I was pretty bummed when I could stand in a certain spot and the guards just simply ignored me. Not because I got caught with a bounty, but because I was expecting more to happen and it didn't. Especially after how much was hyped about it. It turned me off of DB and TG all together. When I got access to them, it felt the same way. I feel like I'm wasting 4000someodd crowns for two DLCs that didn't add anything to the Justice System in terms of skill. Heists and dailies? Sure. But it didn't really add much to the base-game patch in regards to the base guards that COULD be better.

Ok so, if my ppilers hides worked right your post is all there but certain sections spotlighted for response.

The first and second bold in consecutive sentences shows part of my issue with your position. in one sentence you absolutely affirm its not about gold, then you tie in getting the gold without penalties in the equally unambiguous statement of the not as intended problem in the very next sentence in the same graph.

Therein lies the key which even you cannot seem to separate.

The game has lots of different ways to gather gains (gold, experience, goods, mats etc.)
Many of them or most of them have almost no chance of failure IF you have done your homework and prepared for it.
Most of them involve no long term or lingering impacts for when you suffer a rare fail (justice and bounty being one exception.)
Most of them dont even require stealth and timing and all that jazz be employed - just being able to hit your 1, 2 and RMB keys in rapid succession with an occasional 5 maybe.
(if that counts as skill but stealthing for backstabs thru cities along previously cased out routes doesn't, we disagree on what consitutes skill.)
All of them have different levels of payout or at least different ratios of payout.
IMX the whole stealing, murdering, pickpocket whatever justice spams are in the lower half of profit over time when compared with delving, questing, grinding. i would tend to list grinding/farming first, delving second (close second), Quests (that payout skills) a distant third, injusticing a close fourth and questing (non-skill payout) just below that in last place but close.

All of these provde for "getting the gold" without penalties if done well. Injustice activities just dont pay as much oer time usually AND dont allow a universal one step answer of "just kill it" to every challenge they provide.

Another point, regarding drawing guard into terrain blocking situation where the guard is unable to get to em, where he can spam but fail and (i presume from your example) time's out and walks away... can you at least admit that even in that case there was a penalty applied?!?!?! That penalty was TIME. Now, obviously i have bounty which may hinder some types of activities going forward, but no, not that time. TIME spent running to a spot and then waiting out that guard and then waiting for a clear path out. TIME, i lost TIME.

Why does TIME matter - well its the only thing that does matter. How long i and every player has to PLAY THIS GAME is finite. Time spent sitting and waiting out a clock is time not really getting anything done. TIME spent waiting out a guard is time spent not earning rewards. Thats another ten to fifteen seconds i dont get to do stuff - just like the five, ten to fifteen seconds i spent on approach for a sneak attack isnt either.

Like i have said, the "challenge" from injustice activities more often takes the form of speedbumps which make it a slower gain. Like werewolves having to stop and devour, these serve as a meter of sorts. Somethimes you can find areas where the meter isnt running, like say unguarded civies, but then the gains are limited by numbers.

in good grind spots, moving from target to target after wiping and collecting with hardly a sweat often can invovle just hitting your gap closer. A 5-10 second wait is unheard of. At best 1-2 seconds between periods of gain occur.

So, sorry i dont see taking your exact statement getting the gold without penalties by waiting out a guard in a terrain blockage situation i engineered as an exploit. i see it as paying less penalty of one penalty (loot loss) by expending a different resource (more precious time) due to having planned out (or lucked into) a counter.

In much the same vein, for instance, i can pop one mudcrab with a shot... turning him dead and his little crab friends red and attack/pursuit. i can then run, just run, nothing more spohisticated or skillful than that. No other mudcrabs i pass go aggro on me just for running from their buddies. After just a little distance the red crabs give up turn back yto yellow. I can then walk back, right up to their fallen friend and loot the corpse without any need for stealth. No long term repercussions. no crab-bounty placed on my head. i get plenty of loot. I also get xp etc if i am in the usual leveled areas for my weight class. I dont suffer a xp penalty like BoW provides.

So, no, i dont see running a guard into a deadspot where he cannot attack me and waiting out his timer an exploit when compared to even more profitable activites that have penalties countered even easier.

Now in truth, i wouldn't run from the crabs. i would just kill them. thats keeps the gains per second ticking and avoids the whole bad for results running and hiding thingy. With mudcrabs i dont have to find ways to escape... i just mow them down and collect more rewards for it.

With guards, you have to think beyond 1-rmb-2-rmb-1-rmb-2-rmb-1-rmb-2-rmb and find different solutions which you seem to be stuck on saying are not involving any skill. (Which in some cases may be ture if and only if by that you mean you never click on an in-game skill but not in the usually context of the word.)

Finally regarding your question about the crabs v guards.

It doesn't have to do with proximity to civies. There are no civies within detection range in the examples i have seen. IF the crab goes red in this example and the guard is within detection radius of the red crab, the guard attacks the crab. Not sure if it happens everywhere but certainly does in this town at cp150-160 levels.

BTW as an aisde, it is an extension of the same issue see in say Velyn harbor and many other places. in these you hit periods where you are fighting bad guys and so are NPCs. You see NPCs fighting bad guys in a mod. NPCs are treated then as allies, not targettable. But as soon as the last enemy in the mob dies, that split second, the "allies" switch to gray "civie" status and you may find your orphaned attack hitting them and earning bounty.

Now, obviously i can avoid this.

Instead of using aimed attacks, i can stick to AOE attacks when in these crowded situations where civies can pop-up at any moment - since AOE attacks are SAFER than aimed ones when it comes to civies. (Odd that the "your actions wrecking my feelings or the doesn't feel right crowd aren't launching threads about how bad it is that spamming AOE leaves civies untouched but aimed shots hurt them. That seems more off-kilter as a mechanic to me, from that perspective but i guess cant work PVP-ransom into that fix as easy.)

Or i can choose to totally opt-out of this issue by turning on the innocents flag.

My suggestion sent in when i reported it to zos was simple - 3 seconds delay between last enemy drops and switching to civie from ally status. Maybe even give a three flash blinky warning aura as they start the change and the timer ticks. That gives orphan attacks time to end before the timer clicks off.

Would solve reasonably easily the issue for both velyn harbor docsk and the beachside crabbing - as well as the examples in greenshade and other places - IMO.

But i am sure there are some who see this as another opportunity for a PVP-ransom-takeover solution. After all i just went straight to hunt and kill on sight status as far as guards are considered and even have a civie making attacks. I am just certain no PVP wannabe enforcer would be looking at those accidental kill-on--sight possible main questies as a happy hunting ground if they got to jump kill on sight PCs. Nah... they aren't like that.

FleetwoodSmack

STEVIL wrote: »

I have seen folks kill NPCs with abandon usually in out of the way places where there aren't guards however. they accrue bounty that they then either wait out doing non-guard areas or log-out. Either way, no runs into towns and merchants for a while unless they expend resources. But... that doesn't make them more profit over time than grinding or delving in similarly favorable setups?

I can answer this. Daggerfall, PC-NA over on DC's alliance. Pre-TG, Pre-DB. People were slaughtering the group of NPCs that are around the town crier. Just because you don't experience it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. You could be on a different server (EU), a different alliance, on at different times in which it's quite common, and Daggerfall certainly isn't the only place. Wayrest, Stormhaven people tend to kill people in front of guards, again Pre-Stealth DLCs, right near the tavern, inside the tavern, even in small places like Koe there's a maiming or two within it's walls. Shornhelm, Rivenspire again there were people killing people right in front of guards and when the guards didn't notice, they sure as heck made them notice. Bangkorai? Evermore tended to have quite a few NPCs murdered, however people were more concerned with selling their bites than toying with the Justice System there, however I wouldn't put it past people to go on slaughtering escapades. Sentinal in Alik'r Desert tends to have some lulz in terms of players toying with guards, NPCs, and your general shenanigans there too.

In regards to this;

Are you describing higher level PCs runni9ng back to lower level zones and mowing down under-levelled opposition?

because, if so, that skews my assessment of how much the gains are by a great bit. The XP gains from the killing and stacks of bodies would be next to nothing. That cuts the already subpar payout when compared to grinding or delving against leveled targets even further.

It's really not just about the gains, gold, or the angle that you're trying to come through with. It's about how easy it is to exploit subpar AI that tends to glitch. It's about how easy it is to kill someone directly IN the line of sight to an NPC who should see another NPC you kill less than 10 meters away. Nothing happens when we expect them to, especially in regards to immersive gameplay. They range from straight out of Coldharbour, to at the time VR 16 with trying to beat up invincible guards after a good mindless mass slaughtering.

In your next post;

The first and second bold in consecutive sentences shows part of my issue with your position. in one sentence you absolutely affirm its not about gold, then you tie in getting the gold without penalties in the equally unambiguous statement of the not as intended problem in the very next sentence in the same graph.

Did you read the part where I mentioned that they are exploiting it with the potential to abuse the justice system? If you're one to encourage that, I don't think we'll be agreeing on anything at this point. Because that's either willful ignorance, or blatant disregard for the mechanics that aren't working as intended. Because right here, you admit it;

So, sorry i dont see taking your exact statement getting the gold without penalties by waiting out a guard in a terrain blockage situation i engineered as an exploit. i see it as paying less penalty of one penalty (loot loss) by expending a different resource (more precious time) due to having planned out (or lucked into) a counter.

Using a place where a guard spams one single ability and then walks away is NOT how the guard should be reacting. Especially if they're spamming an ability, the effects appear around your character, and then it's NOT logged into FTC. Do you understand the problem with that? You're purposely circumventing line of sight, which is no different than when Templars were abusing similar glitches in PvP. PvE is no exception to that rule. So I definitely will continue to disagree with you on that. My mind's not changing on that any time soon.

But i am sure there are some who see this as another opportunity for a PVP-ransom-takeover solution.

I strongly disagree with this, and this position you're taking. It's simply not constructive. If you have a better alternative, we're all ears. Seriously. Help us, help you.

Edit; Furthermore, if it's not constructive or concise, I cannot help your case. No offense, but using PvP-Ransom-Takeover seems like a passive aggressive jab at anyone who disagrees with you. I'm all for a PvE option to flee. However I'm not going to be guilted into agreeing with someone based on findings that I've taken quite a few hours in various mediums to create constructive feedback to the OP. If you don't want to do that, then I suggest this is where we part ways, friend.

BenLocoDete

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I have seen folks kill NPCs with abandon usually in out of the way places where there aren't guards however. they accrue bounty that they then either wait out doing non-guard areas or log-out. Either way, no runs into towns and merchants for a while unless they expend resources. But... that doesn't make them more profit over time than grinding or delving in similarly favorable setups?

I can answer this. Daggerfall, PC-NA over on DC's alliance. Pre-TG, Pre-DB. People were slaughtering the group of NPCs that are around the town crier. Just because you don't experience it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. You could be on a different server (EU), a different alliance, on at different times in which it's quite common, and Daggerfall certainly isn't the only place. Wayrest, Stormhaven people tend to kill people in front of guards, again Pre-Stealth DLCs, right near the tavern, inside the tavern, even in small places like Koe there's a maiming or two within it's walls. Shornhelm, Rivenspire again there were people killing people right in front of guards and when the guards didn't notice, they sure as heck made them notice. Bangkorai? Evermore tended to have quite a few NPCs murdered, however people were more concerned with selling their bites than toying with the Justice System there, however I wouldn't put it past people to go on slaughtering escapades. Sentinal in Alik'r Desert tends to have some lulz in terms of players toying with guards, NPCs, and your general shenanigans there too.

In regards to this;

Are you describing higher level PCs runni9ng back to lower level zones and mowing down under-levelled opposition?

because, if so, that skews my assessment of how much the gains are by a great bit. The XP gains from the killing and stacks of bodies would be next to nothing. That cuts the already subpar payout when compared to grinding or delving against leveled targets even further.

It's really not just about the gains, gold, or the angle that you're trying to come through with. It's about how easy it is to exploit subpar AI that tends to glitch. It's about how easy it is to kill someone directly IN the line of sight to an NPC who should see another NPC you kill less than 10 meters away. Nothing happens when we expect them to, especially in regards to immersive gameplay. They range from straight out of Coldharbour, to at the time VR 16 with trying to beat up invincible guards after a good mindless mass slaughtering.

In your next post;

The first and second bold in consecutive sentences shows part of my issue with your position. in one sentence you absolutely affirm its not about gold, then you tie in getting the gold without penalties in the equally unambiguous statement of the not as intended problem in the very next sentence in the same graph.

Did you read the part where I mentioned that they are exploiting it with the potential to abuse the justice system? If you're one to encourage that, I don't think we'll be agreeing on anything at this point. Because that's either willful ignorance, or blatant disregard for the mechanics that aren't working as intended. Because right here, you admit it;

So, sorry i dont see taking your exact statement getting the gold without penalties by waiting out a guard in a terrain blockage situation i engineered as an exploit. i see it as paying less penalty of one penalty (loot loss) by expending a different resource (more precious time) due to having planned out (or lucked into) a counter.

Using a place where a guard spams one single ability and then walks away is NOT how the guard should be reacting. Especially if they're spamming an ability, the effects appear around your character, and then it's NOT logged into FTC. Do you understand the problem with that? You're purposely circumventing line of sight, which is no different than when Templars were abusing similar glitches in PvP. PvE is no exception to that rule. So I definitely will continue to disagree with you on that. My mind's not changing on that any time soon.

But i am sure there are some who see this as another opportunity for a PVP-ransom-takeover solution.

I strongly disagree with this, and this position you're taking. It's simply not constructive. If you have a better alternative, we're all ears. Seriously. Help us, help you.

Edit; Furthermore, if it's not constructive or concise, I cannot help your case. No offense, but using PvP-Ransom-Takeover seems like a passive aggressive jab at anyone who disagrees with you. I'm all for a PvE option to flee. However I'm not going to be guilted into agreeing with someone based on findings that I've taken quite a few hours in various mediums to create constructive feedback to the OP. If you don't want to do that, then I suggest this is where we part ways, friend.

To me it resembles far more an angry figure in uniform banging the table while yelling "NEIM NEIM NEIM NEIM NEIM!!"

STEVIL

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I have seen folks kill NPCs with abandon usually in out of the way places where there aren't guards however. they accrue bounty that they then either wait out doing non-guard areas or log-out. Either way, no runs into towns and merchants for a while unless they expend resources. But... that doesn't make them more profit over time than grinding or delving in similarly favorable setups?

I can answer this. Daggerfall, PC-NA over on DC's alliance. Pre-TG, Pre-DB. People were slaughtering the group of NPCs that are around the town crier. Just because you don't experience it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. You could be on a different server (EU), a different alliance, on at different times in which it's quite common, and Daggerfall certainly isn't the only place. Wayrest, Stormhaven people tend to kill people in front of guards, again Pre-Stealth DLCs, right near the tavern, inside the tavern, even in small places like Koe there's a maiming or two within it's walls. Shornhelm, Rivenspire again there were people killing people right in front of guards and when the guards didn't notice, they sure as heck made them notice. Bangkorai? Evermore tended to have quite a few NPCs murdered, however people were more concerned with selling their bites than toying with the Justice System there, however I wouldn't put it past people to go on slaughtering escapades. Sentinal in Alik'r Desert tends to have some lulz in terms of players toying with guards, NPCs, and your general shenanigans there too.

In regards to this;

Are you describing higher level PCs runni9ng back to lower level zones and mowing down under-levelled opposition?

because, if so, that skews my assessment of how much the gains are by a great bit. The XP gains from the killing and stacks of bodies would be next to nothing. That cuts the already subpar payout when compared to grinding or delving against leveled targets even further.

It's really not just about the gains, gold, or the angle that you're trying to come through with. It's about how easy it is to exploit subpar AI that tends to glitch. It's about how easy it is to kill someone directly IN the line of sight to an NPC w*** should see another NPC you kill less than 10 meters away. Nothing happens when we expect them to, especially in regards to immersive gameplay. They range from straight out of Coldharbour, to at the time VR 16 with trying to beat up invincible guards after a good mindless mass slaughtering.

In your next post;

The first and second bold in consecutive sentences shows part of my issue with your position. in one sentence you absolutely affirm its not about gold, then you tie in getting the gold without penalties in the equally unambiguous statement of the not as intended problem in the very next sentence in the same graph.

Did you read the part where I mentioned that they are exploiting it with the potential to abuse the justice system? If you're one to encourage that, I don't think we'll be agreeing on anything at this point. Because that's either willful ignorance, or blatant disregard for the mechanics that aren't working as intended. Because right here, you admit it;

So, sorry i dont see taking your exact statement getting the gold without penalties by waiting out a guard in a terrain blockage situation i engineered as an exploit. i see it as paying less penalty of one penalty (loot loss) by expending a different resource (more precious time) due to having planned out (or lucked into) a counter.

Using a place where a guard spams one single ability and then walks away is NOT how the guard should be reacting. Especially if they're spamming an ability, the effects appear around your character, and then it's NOT logged into FTC. Do you understand the problem with that? You're purposely circumventing line of sight, which is no different than when Templars were abusing similar glitches in PvP. PvE is no exception to that rule. So I definitely will continue to disagree with you on that. My mind's not changing on that any time soon.

But i am sure there are some who see this as another opportunity for a PVP-ransom-takeover solution.

I strongly disagree with this, and this position you're taking. It's simply not constructive. If you have a better alternative, we're all ears. Seriously. Help us, help you.

Edit; Furthermore, if it's not constructive or concise, I cannot help your case. No offense, but using PvP-Ransom-Takeover seems like a passive aggressive jab at anyone who disagrees with you. I'm all for a PvE option to flee. However I'm not going to be guilted into agreeing with someone based on findings that I've taken quite a few hours in various mediums to create constructive feedback to the OP. If you don't want to do that, then I suggest this is where we part ways, friend.

first bold
My not seeing it or 99% of the playbase seeing it doesnt mean it doesnt happen at all, but does speak to how prevalent it is and that points to whether it is a problem or not and how serious it is.

Also as several times you mention pre-tgdb, i will note that guards got new tricks then that did alter some of the challenges. I also believe some changes were made to their los perception ranges as well as the pc skills that affect those. So i tend to treat curent behavior as more significant han older cases.

Second bold
Will you agree that once you remove gains over time from the issue as you keep trying to insist we must, then your how easy it is to succeed is then only a subjective preference not a quantifiable identifiable game error? Without a metric such as gains over time to enable comparing injustice activities to other accepted in game activities we are left with "how hard do you like it to be to succeed at this"!?

Maybe you would like the succes rate at this to be FOR PLAYERS WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING (prepped, planned, geared etc) to be only 50-50 or 25-75 instead of 99-1. Thats all good but again, if its about how easy it is, not how much you gain from these activities over time, then its just preference, not imbalance, right?

third bold
Potential to abuse the justice system?
I see you choose to categorize the outcome as an abuse. I see folks ssying four on one radiant is an abuse.
I see folks saying dodging too much is an abuse,
I see lotsa folks saying lotsa thing they have a bug up their bonnet over are abuses.

In all of those cases, the first question is usually how does that compare with the alternatives?

Yet when i raise that repeatedly here, it keeps getting dismissed as not the point, then odfly included as part of the definition.

I get its something you dont like. I get its something some folks may prtend to not like to push a pvp-ransom-takeover agenda.

I just dont get the leap from that to abuse here when the measurable metrics dont support it providing better results than the other options player have.

final bold
It is unclear what the "that" pronoun refers to in your sentence.
Are you requiring to continue that i:
Shorten my responses (ref concise)
Restrict my responses to only parts you deem constructive (ref constructive)
Cease referring to pvp cases STILL SUPPORTED in the current adjusted proposal in the heart of this thread and pretend that had been removed (ref pvp-ransom-takeover)
Go spend even more time doing injustice activities until i have met some minimum level you require (ref hours spent)

I honestly dont knowvehich of these elements from earlier in the paragraph you intended "that" to refer to, so please clarify if you can by telling me what "that" was.

STEVIL

Broad isdue question for @IndyWendieGo and @BenLocoDete and anyone else not locking themselves behind a self-impised wont accept if no sacrifice limitation...

Since "too easy" keeps coming up, we should i think try to understand our starting points on this, where we are coming from.

If the current payout for injutice activities stay as they are then what success rate for knowledgable players would you find acceptable and reasonable within the context of the game?
99% (some say this is current)
75%
50%
25%
5%
1%
0%



DEFINITIONS
injustice activity - pickpocket, stealing, break enter, murder, trespass.

Success - getting away with loot and gold. Not paying bounty. Not expending consumables such as leniency or escape essenses. Success does not require no bounty, so even though you may be hindered in option for a while with bounty, we will consider that success for this task.

Knowledgable - has prior experience with these, has done homework, scouted and cased the area, appropriated geared, equipoed etc for this task and of same or higher level? Note that it is understtod this is not the same as the average player and is likely that aferage or below average woukd succeed less often than this.

My answer would be that 99% is ok but still leaves injustice subpar compared to alternatives.

FleetwoodSmack

My not seeing it or 99% of the playbase seeing it doesnt mean it doesnt happen at all, but does speak to how prevalent it is and that points to whether it is a problem or not and how serious it is.

You can't possibly be everywhere at once. It doesn't make a difference that it 'doesn't happen that much' around you. The fact that there are loads of people like myself who are nightly maiming NPCs (and them moreso than I) is something that you can find even in YouTube videos. There's people that even -stream- it. Come on, you can't possibly expect me to take your word, despite the evidence to the contrary.. Let's be serious about it.

Will you agree that once you remove gains over time from the issue as you keep trying to insist we must, then your how easy it is to succeed is then only a subjective preference not a quantifiable identifiable game error? Without a metric such as gains over time to enable comparing injustice activities to other accepted in game activities we are left with "how hard do you like it to be to succeed at this"!?

You keep going into gold which is just irrelevant to what I specifically addressed. If you don't believe it's an exploit, there's no real point in discussing it because people clearly think otherwise.

Yet when i raise that repeatedly here, it keeps getting dismissed as not the point, then odfly included as part of the definition.

And I feel you're putting words in my mouth here. I'm stating it's just as much as an exploit as the other abused abilities when dealing specifically with line of sight. You're deflecting in this case, sooo I can't explain it any plainer than what I have already. Take from that what you will.

I get its something you dont like. I get its something some folks may prtend to not like to push a pvp-ransom-takeover agenda.

But see, this bolded statement? I get that some folks like to pretend an exploit isn't an exploit, but it's nonetheless an exploit.

It is unclear what the "that" pronoun refers to in your sentence.
Are you requiring to continue that i:
Shorten my responses (ref concise)
Restrict my responses to only parts you deem constructive (ref constructive)
Cease referring to pvp cases STILL SUPPORTED in the current adjusted proposal in the heart of this thread and pretend that had been removed (ref pvp-ransom-takeover)
Go spend even more time doing injustice activities until i have met some minimum level you require (ref hours spent)

I'm saying that if you're going to call everything a PvP ransom agenda, that's not being constructive. That literally tells me no information other than the fact that you simply disagree. Unless you have a solution, I can't help your case any and you're making the cause for an opt to PvE flee an inconsequential, feeble task. Because the way it sounds if it's not exactly to -your- liking, rather than something that can be compromised with, it's a PvP ransom agenda and it's derailing the topic.

Edit; As to your post under your other post, no offense, but I'm really more of an AI person. Payouts and gold aren't my concern at the moment as AI is the more complex problem at hand. After I find a compromise for the OP to add an opt out system into his idea, THEN you and I can talk about payouts and gold. But right now, it's not a top concern of mine.

BenLocoDete

STEVIL wrote: »

Broad isdue question for @IndyWendieGo and @BenLocoDete and anyone else not locking themselves behind a self-impised wont accept if no sacrifice limitation...

Since "too easy" keeps coming up, we should i think try to understand our starting points on this, where we are coming from.

If the current payout for injutice activities stay as they are then what success rate for knowledgable players would you find acceptable and reasonable within the context of the game?
99% (some say this is current)
75%
50%
25%
5%
1%
0%



DEFINITIONS
injustice activity - pickpocket, stealing, break enter, murder, trespass.

Success - getting away with loot and gold. Not paying bounty. Not expending consumables such as leniency or escape essenses. Success does not require no bounty, so even though you may be hindered in option for a while with bounty, we will consider that success for this task.

Knowledgable - has prior experience with these, has done homework, scouted and cased the area, appropriated geared, equipoed etc for this task and of same or higher level? Note that it is understtod this is not the same as the average player and is likely that aferage or below average woukd succeed less often than this.

My answer would be that 99% is ok but still leaves injustice subpar compared to alternatives.

I really appreciated this post, somewhat it puts us in equal grounds.

I'd try to lower it a bit, say 85% since I'd add a few limitations even for the really experienced player.

Being this an RPG, and considering we aren't given the option to start at 10, 20 etc, we are forced to start new characters at level one, thus I'd even lower it a bit more and reach the 77% so my sincere option is, if you are coming from a criminal background, and justify your character as someone with a previous criminal experience, then 55% is a more than generous start since the TG and DB perks should lower the consequence for your acts and still there must always be a cap, Skyrim had pickpocket cap at 90% which I find acceptable, but for an MMO I'd suggest after all the perks and skill points spent into the criminal activity efficacy a success rate not above 85%.

Now let's take, say, 7 million have played ESO so far, many have already left, I'd estimate the current regular amount of players around 700 thousand.

From this 700 thousand regular players, probably 50% own TG and DB.

In this scenario and having crafting, questing, PvP, crime and grinding the most common ways to level up the character, again 70 thousand people should choose the criminal life as a way to boot their characters.

And considering the amount of time I've been logged in those areas I've mentioned where the critical issues happened, I'd probably estimate around 7 thousand of players choosing to spam crime as a mean to ease the start.

Now, I know I'd be hijacking the OP well and thoroughly thought concept, but considering the suggestion I made in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3178350/#Comment_3178350 where very restricted limits were put to where Enforcers would be able to act, I'd estimate it would affect around 5 thousand players directly what is probably even less than your 99% efficacy answer, so really only those really bad and unscrupulous players would be target to enforcer approach.

Is this too much? Must we raise a wall and split two large groups of people because 1% of the really trolling players are getting a beating now and then for the sake of lore, realism and immersion?

I understand this could mean that it doesn't even matter to implement such a system with a so little target group, but it does, in fact, for the sake of offering more dynamic relations within the civil areas such as towns and big cities. Good characters can choose to patrol marketplaces during idle moments when they are tired or crafting or roleplay their duties, and thieves would overjoy themselves for their cunning by unsuspectedly waiting until enforcers leave the area to finally act.

I'm not talking about PvP inside dungeons(although I support duels)
Not even ganking outside outlaws hideouts(if they could provide radiant entrances or instances to these entrances, it could make for a great questing, an instanced mission where you follow an outlaw NPC to a one-time hideout without any players in it).

Also, you cannot ask for ransom in that implementation, no time for that, no dialogue, no approach, just a combat instance triggered between the assaulted NPC(s), the guards, the enforcer and the criminal under the circumstance of a very high heat. The area of effect for the enforcer to act is the same of the guards, they act in support of guards and NPCs in that concept.

I don't mean it can't be expanded, but it offers a safe start and a possibly grief-free opportunity to test said system.

I believe the only way you could grief in that scenario is for you being the criminal, and purposely creating the conditions necessary to trigger the heat, still no enforcer is forced to fight you.

STEVIL

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

My not seeing it or 99% of the playbase seeing it doesnt mean it doesnt happen at all, but does speak to how prevalent it is and that points to whether it is a problem or not and how serious it is.

You can't possibly be everywhere at once. It doesn't make a difference that it 'doesn't happen that much' around you. The fact that there are loads of people like myself who are nightly maiming NPCs (and them moreso than I) is something that you can find even in YouTube videos. There's people that even -stream- it. Come on, you can't possibly expect me to take your word, despite the evidence to the contrary.. Let's be serious about it.

Will you agree that once you remove gains over time from the issue as you keep trying to insist we must, then your how easy it is to succeed is then only a subjective preference not a quantifiable identifiable game error? Without a metric such as gains over time to enable comparing injustice activities to other accepted in game activities we are left with "how hard do you like it to be to succeed at this"!?

You keep going into gold which is just irrelevant to what I specifically addressed. If you don't believe it's an exploit, there's no real point in discussing it because people clearly think otherwise.

Yet when i raise that repeatedly here, it keeps getting dismissed as not the point, then odfly included as part of the definition.

And I feel you're putting words in my mouth here. I'm stating it's just as much as an exploit as the other abused abilities when dealing specifically with line of sight. You're deflecting in this case, sooo I can't explain it any plainer than what I have already. Take from that what you will.

I get its something you dont like. I get its something some folks may prtend to not like to push a pvp-ransom-takeover agenda.

But see, this bolded statement? I get that some folks like to pretend an exploit isn't an exploit, but it's nonetheless an exploit.

It is unclear what the "that" pronoun refers to in your sentence.
Are you requiring to continue that i:
Shorten my responses (ref concise)
Restrict my responses to only parts you deem constructive (ref constructive)
Cease referring to pvp cases STILL SUPPORTED in the current adjusted proposal in the heart of this thread and pretend that had been removed (ref pvp-ransom-takeover)
Go spend even more time doing injustice activities until i have met some minimum level you require (ref hours spent)

I'm saying that if you're going to call everything a PvP ransom agenda, that's not being constructive. That literally tells me no information other than the fact that you simply disagree. Unless you have a solution, I can't help your case any and you're making the cause for an opt to PvE flee an inconsequential, feeble task. Because the way it sounds if it's not exactly to -your- liking, rather than something that can be compromised with, it's a PvP ransom agenda and it's derailing the topic.

Edit; As to your post under your other post, no offense, but I'm really more of an AI person. Payouts and gold aren't my concern at the moment as AI is the more complex problem at hand. After I find a compromise for the OP to add an opt out system into his idea, THEN you and I can talk about payouts and gold. But right now, it's not a top concern of mine.

first bold
I cant be everywhere at once. Neither can you or the streamers. Not arguing npcs are getting killed. Difference of view is whether that is an abuse or exploit or just an option within the game that is relatively on par with other options.

Aside, i do like the use of more viceral term maiming instead of just killing or murdering. How does calling it maiming fit with the whole focus on glitchy ai thing you are going for?

Second bold
Yes i keep going into rewards, not just gold, and i explained why. Abuse and exploit are terms thrown all over this thread as is the word "should" ad in "should not be easy". "Explout" and "abuse" are being used not just in the narrow confines of a tactical los glitch, but as in abuse the justice system. Those claims are being used as foundation for changes.

But for that scope of abuse and exploit to be meaningful, they have to produce disparate results in the context of the game.
Otherwise, its just using abuse and exploit on large scale to cover the less convincing "i dont like this and want a change" foundation.

Third bold
Bingo. You get it. We agree. Its not about what people think as far as whether or not something is an exoloit. Its about an objective questoon of IS IT AN EXPLOIT. That needs measurable comparison. Its not about whether you or i want a "better ai" at all. Its about whether x allows results that make it out of whack when compared to the game norm.

You obviously would prefer an AI that behaves differently.Thats ok. I dont even disagree. They have tweaked that ai and othrr ai many times. But for me, this is not justified based on the arguments of abuse. For me, changing the AI must keep in mind the current easy avoid penalties status of injustice keeps the injustice system on par or slightly subpar to other alternatives. So since in this thread, we see numerous references to it being too easy to beat the ai and get the gold... its obvious that is a goal worth considering.

Fourth bold
I have not called everything a pvp-ransom-agenda. I do reference that frequently and even in the section you quoted said "some folks" not "everything".

fifth bold
Solution presumes problem. Problem is not universally defined yet here.

You dont like how the ai works currently and want it changed.

You also make it clear you want to change the ai, its first priority for youis a solution to the ai - then later after solvling the pvp-pve-thingy (good luck) maybe we can work on payouts.

For me, you cannot talk about getting a solution by changing the ai without payout being a part of it from the get go because whether or not a change is an solution or a new break is determined by whether it moves things closer to balance and normal or further from it.

A change without consideration of overall results is a change for personal preference not a solution.

It is an example of what i call the tunnel-vision exclusivity fallacy..

You see it all the time on these boards.

Someone takes a 2h weapon skill, compares it to a dw skill, limits thenfocus down to only on those specific skill values, tunnel visions in and excludes other factors and argues the 2h is too powerful or is wrong and recommends a change.

They ignore that 2h vs dw are going to have different results overall since dw allows one more set slot over 2h.
They ignore different passive which may apply.
They may even ignore the other active skills of the lines.

So, in effect, the more one chooses to exclude other relevent factors which do apply to comparison, the less robust and complete one wants to be for comparison, the less an argument stands as objective case analysis as opposed to just subjective preference.

Trying to get a solutionfor an ai you dont like and separate that from success rate and payouts is imo very similar to the attempts to use skill-v-skill as basis for change.

Someone once said "if you dont know whete you are going, you might end up somewhere else."

This change ai first then maybe pvp then maybe payout feels as flawed an approach to a solution as deciding mid journey "i dont wsnt to turn left here" without considering your final destination.

This game is too complex to change one thing without regard to the others in a search for a solution.

Sorry but thats how i see it.

And not just for you. I have said similar in other threads like 2h dw etc EVEN WHEN I AGREED WITH OR LIKED THE CHANGES PROPOSED.

Ymmv