Invulnerable guards have got to go

Nyx2 · May 2016

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Open world pvp with the justice system might actually breathe some new life into this game.

A heavy pve community like this won't allow any such thing. If people actually use this, including your terrible suggestions like slaughtering whole cities, then the game will be an unplayable mess. I don't know why I even have to explain that.

idk · May 2016

Vigarr wrote: »

All they need to do is let us use doors while in combat.

The can as long as you have not taken damage for a couple seconds.

At that one can craft and use invis pots to help with this.

If you do not play prepared then it's your own problem and fault you could not escape. Guards do not need to be changed to benefit those of who choose to play poorly.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Extremely on the contrary:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267550/immortal-guards-need-a-boost/p1
It explains why guards should be BOOSTED instead of being nerfed.

Sausage · May 2016

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Guards are so easy to get away from outside. Inside can be a lot harder.

You can use that new perk from TG.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Sausage wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Guards are so easy to get away from outside. Inside can be a lot harder.

You can use that new perk from TG.

Right, that one should be removed due to game breaking.
Theft should be hard.

Dubhliam · May 2016

Give us PvP Justice;
Immortal guards get the can.

Xylphan · May 2016

I think the system is way too lenient. Guards have to be unkillable in the current scheme, otherwise thieving would be free money. It practically is free money already.

Seriously, what is the penalty for being caught? You lose your ill-gotten gains and/or die. However, I've watched players go on murder sprees killing scores of NPCs and suddenly be forgiven by either paying the bounty or running purposefully into a guard to die and be magically forgiven.

There are so many more creative ways to make it more challenging and fun, even when you get punished. At least add world roaming NPC bounty hunters (difficult but killable).

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Open world pvp with the justice system might actually breathe some new life into this game.

You clearly haven't thought it through. Any PvP system you come up with would either be exploited, used to troll/grief, or be so locked down and restricted it wouldn't even be worth it.

People are ******** my friend, especially in situations where there are no negative consequences for being one. That's why ZOS dropped PvP justice in the first place. It wasn't because it was hard. It was because the potential for abuse was so high that there was no logical way it could be implemented and still have the system be worthwhile.

waterfairy · May 2016

Xylphan wrote: »

Seriously, what is the penalty for being caught? You lose your ill-gotten gains and/or die. However, I've watched players go on murder sprees killing scores of NPCs and suddenly be forgiven by either paying the bounty or running purposefully into a guard to die and be magically forgiven.

Your bounty doesn't go away when you're killed. If you go on a murder spree then you can easily rack up 10's of thousands in a bounty that will prevent you from being able to play if you don't have the money to pay it off...this happened to me when I was new to this game and started punching everyone in town right after arrival.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Xylphan wrote: »

I think the system is way too lenient. Guards have to be unkillable in the current scheme, otherwise thieving would be free money. It practically is free money already.

Seriously, what is the penalty for being caught? You lose your ill-gotten gains and/or die. However, I've watched players go on murder sprees killing scores of NPCs and suddenly be forgiven by either paying the bounty or running purposefully into a guard to die and be magically forgiven.

There are so many more creative ways to make it more challenging and fun, even when you get punished. At least add world roaming NPC bounty hunters (difficult but killable).

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Open world pvp with the justice system might actually breathe some new life into this game.

You clearly haven't thought it through. Any PvP system you come up with would either be exploited, used to troll/grief, or be so locked down and restricted it wouldn't even be worth it.

People are ******** my friend, especially in situations where there are no negative consequences for being one. That's why ZOS dropped PvP justice in the first place. It wasn't because it was hard. It was because the potential for abuse was so high that there was no logical way it could be implemented and still have the system be worthwhile.

PRECISELY.
Open PvP/PvP Justice system WILL be exploited/griefed upon.
I am glad a few do have the brains to see that.
Thank you Xyl.

Vigarr wrote: »

Xylphan wrote: »

Seriously, what is the penalty for being caught? You lose your ill-gotten gains and/or die. However, I've watched players go on murder sprees killing scores of NPCs and suddenly be forgiven by either paying the bounty or running purposefully into a guard to die and be magically forgiven.

Your bounty doesn't go away when you're killed. If you go on a murder spree then you can easily rack up 10's of thousands in a bounty that will prevent you from being able to play if you don't have the money to pay it off...this happened to me when I was new to this game and started punching everyone in town right after arrival.

It DOES if you have the gold on you to pay off your bounty.
If upon death you still have not payed of the bounty, well, your own fault: you'll be hunted when seen until you DID pay the whole fine.

Caligamy_ESO · May 2016

Equip a knockback attack such as Wrecking Blow or Destructive Clench and knock them onto objects, or into them.. annnnd incapacitated guard.

Enjoy

Little warning: don't stick around to tagteam them with your buddies. Bad things happen.

https://youtu.be/beLkpADuQ2I

Saoirse_Siobhan · May 2016

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

Equip a knockback attack such as Wrecking Blow or Destructive Clench and knock them onto objects, or into them.. annnnd incapacitated guard.

Enjoy

Little warning: don't stick around to tagteam them with your buddies. Bad things happen.
https://youtu.be/beLkpADuQ2I

By the Eight! I know you can't kill them, but I never get the guards health bar visual go down!

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

TheWhiteDarkness wrote: »

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

Equip a knockback attack such as Wrecking Blow or Destructive Clench and knock them onto objects, or into them.. annnnd incapacitated guard.

Enjoy

Little warning: don't stick around to tagteam them with your buddies. Bad things happen.
https://youtu.be/beLkpADuQ2I

By the Eight! I know you can't kill them, but I never get the guards health bar visual go down!

Either way: thieving is game breaking, guards need to be boosted.
As they are, they're stupid, ignorant blind bats which are entirely incapable.

Digiman · May 2016

I agree. Personally I think guards should spawn stronger the higher your bounty is. With guards being soloable under 2000 gold, then spawning an stronger guards progressing to elite and finally a name NPC who is guard captain.

It would make it fun for groups who want to raid towns.

Lynx7386 · May 2016

It's always better to have player driven content over npc content. Pvp justice system needs to happen

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's always better to have player driven content over npc content. Pvp justice system needs to happen

*sigh*
Why do people reply with moronity to simple things?
This PvP justice system will lead to griefing.
How hard can it be get get that?

Lynx7386 · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's always better to have player driven content over npc content. Pvp justice system needs to happen

*sigh*
Why do people reply with moronity to simple things?
This PvP justice system will lead to griefing.
How hard can it be get get that?

Explain to me how you grief in a system where the griefee needs to steal something or assault someone to be attackable? Did none of you pay attention when the concept for the justice system was first revealed? Here, I'll go over the highlights for you:

Outlaws
-Are not attackable unless they accumulate a bounty, most likely a bounty beyond a certain amount (so petty theft wont immediately make you attackable, to prevent accidental 'steals')
-Can escape to outlaw refuges, where "player guards" cannot follow
-Cannot attack a player guard unless their bounty is high enough to allow them to be attacked in turn

Enforcers (I.e. "player guards")
-Are not attackable by outlaws unless the criminal has accumulated enough bounty to be attackable in turn
-Are identified by specialized enforcer tabards. Enforcer skill lines and content cannot be accessed without the tabard equipped: i.e. the enforcer player would not be able to attack outlaws that have a bounty unless his tabard was equipped
-Have access to guard towers when wearing an enforcer tabard, which serve as a safehouse for player guards and provide access to guard-specific vendors
-Can only attack outlaws who have accumulated a sufficient bounty
-Receive justice system awards based on defeating player outlaws/criminals
-When wearing enforcer tabards, are highlighted for outlaw players, so that criminals may more easily identify player guards

The system would've worked out fine, they just never implemented the rest of it because, frankly, people like you cry too much about the potential abuse (which, IMO, is properly limited by the system to make for fair play).

So here you are asking for more powerful guards because thieving is too easy, but you dont want to have to deal with guards that can actually think for themselves and work outside of a simple AI? Talk about a double standard.

Gidorick · May 2016

Lynx7386 wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's always better to have player driven content over npc content. Pvp justice system needs to happen

*sigh*
Why do people reply with moronity to simple things?
This PvP justice system will lead to griefing.
How hard can it be get get that?

Explain to me how you grief in a system where the griefee needs to steal something or assault someone to be attackable? Did none of you pay attention when the concept for the justice system was first revealed? Here, I'll go over the highlights for you:

Outlaws
-Are not attackable unless they accumulate a bounty, most likely a bounty beyond a certain amount (so petty theft wont immediately make you attackable, to prevent accidental 'steals')
-Can escape to outlaw refuges, where "player guards" cannot follow
-Cannot attack a player guard unless their bounty is high enough to allow them to be attacked in turn

Enforcers (I.e. "player guards")
-Are not attackable by outlaws unless the criminal has accumulated enough bounty to be attackable in turn
-Are identified by specialized enforcer tabards. Enforcer skill lines and content cannot be accessed without the tabard equipped: i.e. the enforcer player would not be able to attack outlaws that have a bounty unless his tabard was equipped
-Have access to guard towers when wearing an enforcer tabard, which serve as a safehouse for player guards and provide access to guard-specific vendors
-Can only attack outlaws who have accumulated a sufficient bounty
-Receive justice system awards based on defeating player outlaws/criminals
-When wearing enforcer tabards, are highlighted for outlaw players, so that criminals may more easily identify player guards

The system would've worked out fine, they just never implemented the rest of it because, frankly, people like you cry too much about the potential abuse (which, IMO, is properly limited by the system to make for fair play).

So here you are asking for more powerful guards because thieving is too easy, but you dont want to have to deal with guards that can actually think for themselves and work outside of a simple AI? Talk about a double standard.

I agree with all of this @Lynx7386 , players who are attackable by other players would be those who are committing enough crimes to gain a large enough bounty. They could even tie it into heat. If a player's heat is with the level, they are not attackable by other players. PVP should be flagged for those who are disregarding laws, not those who accidentally steal an apple.

It could have been done in a creative, interesting way. It really is a shame they abandoned the idea.

Whatzituyah · May 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's always better to have player driven content over npc content. Pvp justice system needs to happen

*sigh*
Why do people reply with moronity to simple things?
This PvP justice system will lead to griefing.
How hard can it be get get that?

Explain to me how you grief in a system where the griefee needs to steal something or assault someone to be attackable? Did none of you pay attention when the concept for the justice system was first revealed? Here, I'll go over the highlights for you:

Outlaws
-Are not attackable unless they accumulate a bounty, most likely a bounty beyond a certain amount (so petty theft wont immediately make you attackable, to prevent accidental 'steals')
-Can escape to outlaw refuges, where "player guards" cannot follow
-Cannot attack a player guard unless their bounty is high enough to allow them to be attacked in turn

Enforcers (I.e. "player guards")
-Are not attackable by outlaws unless the criminal has accumulated enough bounty to be attackable in turn
-Are identified by specialized enforcer tabards. Enforcer skill lines and content cannot be accessed without the tabard equipped: i.e. the enforcer player would not be able to attack outlaws that have a bounty unless his tabard was equipped
-Have access to guard towers when wearing an enforcer tabard, which serve as a safehouse for player guards and provide access to guard-specific vendors
-Can only attack outlaws who have accumulated a sufficient bounty
-Receive justice system awards based on defeating player outlaws/criminals
-When wearing enforcer tabards, are highlighted for outlaw players, so that criminals may more easily identify player guards

The system would've worked out fine, they just never implemented the rest of it because, frankly, people like you cry too much about the potential abuse (which, IMO, is properly limited by the system to make for fair play).

So here you are asking for more powerful guards because thieving is too easy, but you dont want to have to deal with guards that can actually think for themselves and work outside of a simple AI? Talk about a double standard.

I agree with all of this @Lynx7386 , players who are attackable by other players would be those who are committing enough crimes to gain a large enough bounty. They could even tie it into heat. If a player's heat is with the level, they are not attackable by other players. PVP should be flagged for those who are disregarding laws, not those who accidentally steal an apple.

It could have been done in a creative, interesting way. It really is a shame they abandoned the idea.

So heres my thought a 4th heat option saying "the Elite Guard can now attack you" the elite guards being players.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

@Lynx7386 @Gidorick @Whatzituyah If none of you can see the problem it will give with griefing, I suggest you overthink the whole situation again.
I'm tired of having to explain everything every 5 seconds.

It's really not that hard, really.

Maybe another kind soul wants to spell this out for you....

Gidorick · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

... @Gidorick ... If none of you can see the problem it will give with griefing, I suggest you overthink the whole situation again.
I'm tired of having to explain everything every 5 seconds.

It's really not that hard, really.

Maybe another kind soul wants to spell this out for you....

The griefing possibility I see @dtm_samuraib16_ESO is with Enforces camping outside of outlaws dens. That, I agree, would be a problem. The solution would have to be something like... a radius around outlaw dens that this system isn't applied, but that's kind of wonky.

Perhaps there could be a outlaw version of a guard that could be posted at outlaw dens entrances... and if an Enforcer hangs around too close to an outlaw's den for too long they get killed by the Outlaw guard.

I'll post my thoughts about this from another thread on the same subject.

Gidorick wrote: »

... Allowing players to loot, steal, pickpocket and kill without having fear of the PVP justice system is just... well... missing the point of the PVP portion of the justice system. Adding PVP would have added a layer of depth and complexity to the Justice System that would make it so that players couldn't simply learn the ways to dodge responsibility for their crimes. They would have to contend with players who are actively hunting them. There would be an element of fear and excitement that many players just don't receive from the current iteration of the justice system.

That being said... I understand that if players could be killed for stealing a potato it would just turn into a gank fest with powerful players running trains on lower level players. So... I see that there is a need for some checks and balances along the lines of what you suggest but your suggestions are too binary.

To prepare for justice system PVP ZOS would need to do the following
Implement a toggle or stealing AND pickpocketing so players can completely avoid these activities if they want.

Rework the heat system so that player must commit MANY more smaller crimes to get to the higher levels of heat.

Add a Wanted level to the heat system between Notorious and Fugitive

Calm the guards down! Make it so that a player is only a Fugitive if they flee from the guards while Wanted or commit murder. As long as a player is not a Fugitive, they shouldn't be Kill-on-Sight. Stealing an apple, and running from the guards shouldn't automatically make the player kill on sight.

Oh, and guards, while tough... should be able to be killed.

And then player enforcers can have 2 levels of participation also. They can stop players of a Wanted level to collect the bounty and they can attack Fugitives Players. In this system, players would have to act deliberately by committing multiple acts of wanton acts of mayhem to get to a Fugitive level and it's not a binary opt-out making any players safe from any player dealt consequence.

Most of the above concepts are derived from a broader Justice system concept that I have been pecking away at for a long while which would include zone based Infamy levels so a player can be a Fugitive in one zone but upstanding in another... but that is all for another thread.

... The Justice System shouldn't just be used to open up Tamriel-wide PVP, it should be an engaging part of the PVP system.

@Whatzituyah might notice that I too suggest adding another level to the heat system.

Now, how would griefing be possible in a system that has the above restrictions? The only players that would be susceptible to PVP Justice are those that are participating in deliberate and regular criminal activity.

rootimus · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Open PvP/PvP Justice system WILL be exploited/griefed upon.
I am glad a few do have the brains to see that.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Why do people reply with moronity to simple things?
This PvP justice system will lead to griefing.
How hard can it be get get that?

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep coming back with ad hom attacks instead of substantive answers.

Gidorick wrote: »

The griefing possibility I see @dtm_samuraib16_ESO is with Enforces camping outside of outlaws dens. That, I agree, would be a problem. The solution would have to be something like... a radius around outlaw dens that this system isn't applied, but that's kind of wonky.

I agree that's exactly what would happen as things stand, though I don't grant the premise that it constitutes griefing, but with a smidgen of creativity Zenimax could fix it, perhaps by adding more dens or more ways into the existing ones. Perhaps they could incentivise player guards to deal with a crime as close to the crime scene as possible. Thieves could help themselves by making sure they have the footpad passive and working together.

RedRoomGaming · May 2016

First day I got the game within 1 hour I had been killed 4 times by a guard because I had no gold to pay and I had no idea what to do

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

The idea is not to make theft an absolute impossible thing.
This PvP Justice System will do just that.

@RedRoomGaming I'm sorry to hear that.
But if you are not known with the game, then refrain from crime, get informed first.
That will save you a lot of frustration.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

rootimus wrote: »

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep coming back with ad hom attacks instead of substantive answers.

Ad hominem... how nice.
And just where or how do I do that?
I am precisely doing the very opposite, I AM focussed on my points, not persons.
I do name them here, yes, to post towards that person.

So, ad hominem... where?
Do enlighten me?

Lynx7386 · May 2016

The griefing possibility I see @dtm_samuraib16_ESO is with Enforces camping outside of outlaws dens. That, I agree, would be a problem. The solution would have to be something like... a radius around outlaw dens that this system isn't applied, but that's kind of wonky.

Thing is, you dont have to exit an outlaw den from one of the physical doors. Use the den to escape from pursuing enforcers, and if they camp the exit just wayshrine out.

rootimus · May 2016

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The griefing possibility I see @dtm_samuraib16_ESO is with Enforces camping outside of outlaws dens. That, I agree, would be a problem. The solution would have to be something like... a radius around outlaw dens that this system isn't applied, but that's kind of wonky.

Thing is, you dont have to exit an outlaw den from one of the physical doors. Use the den to escape from pursuing enforcers, and if they camp the exit just wayshrine out.

Getting in would be the hard part. Once you do that, clear your bounty and stroll past the camp, whistling a cheerful tune.

Nyx2 · May 2016

rootimus wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Open PvP/PvP Justice system WILL be exploited/griefed upon.
I am glad a few do have the brains to see that.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Why do people reply with moronity to simple things?
This PvP justice system will lead to griefing.
How hard can it be get get that?

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep coming back with ad hom attacks instead of substantive answers.

Gidorick wrote: »

The griefing possibility I see @dtm_samuraib16_ESO is with Enforces camping outside of outlaws dens. That, I agree, would be a problem. The solution would have to be something like... a radius around outlaw dens that this system isn't applied, but that's kind of wonky.

I agree that's exactly what would happen as things stand, though I don't grant the premise that it constitutes griefing, but with a smidgen of creativity Zenimax could fix it, perhaps by adding more dens or more ways into the existing ones. Perhaps they could incentivise player guards to deal with a crime as close to the crime scene as possible. Thieves could help themselves by making sure they have the footpad passive and working together.

Here is your answer: you can't have it.

Law enforcement must be present at all times, not at the whim and presence / lack of presence of players. Again, I don't know why you need this spelled out to you when it's so blatantly obvious. Cities aren't warzones and nobody wants their game halted because NPCs keep dying left and right. Buff guards, then you can think of ways to implement players.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Indeed, VERY good, brother @Nyx2

irxson · July 2016

I'm a new player and I was wondering are there plans to improve the justice system?

TheDarkoil · July 2016

I get away about 50% of the time when inside, if outside I always manage to get away. The game trolled me yesterday though, was on a quest inside an empty mages guild and as soon as I stole something Mr invisible guard appears and bollocks me, managed to run and get enough time to use a counterfeit pardon but it was annoying to nearly lose all the stuff I was carrying around including multiple large shipments.