Invulnerable guards have got to go

Whatzituyah

So remind me why the guards can solo delves, dungeons, and bosses to be there for the people like they are supposed to be? Example being the guards going to Imperial City and killing all the daedra "they are immortal after all" then restoring order.

Doesn't make much sense does it? I understand why in a gameplay perspective why they are immortal from a logical one though? We tread where most people won't in very dangerous places and do so great to get Daedric Princes attention! But we still get killed by a guard...

I can escape guards avoiding the inside of building but this is just my 2 cents.

Teridaxus

Whatzituyah wrote: »

So remind me why the guards can solo delves, dungeons, and bosses to be there for the people like they are supposed to be? Example being the guards going to Imperial City and killing all the daedra "they are immortal after all" then restoring order.

Doesn't make much sense does it? I understand why in a gameplay perspective why they are immortal from a logical one though? We tread where most people won't in very dangerous places and do so great to get Daedric Princes attention! But we still get killed by a guard...

I can escape guards avoiding the inside of building but this is just my 2 cents.

It's a game, for example it make sense if your death would be permanent, deleting your char but no way they would do it.
They have to do some sacrafies in immersion and lore so the game can work correctly.

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Lynx7386

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Nyx2

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

GivvumBoane

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Imagine getting cracked behind the head by six WB the second you get a bounty. Sounds like a blast

TerraDewBerry

I feel for the OP, and am sorry they are having a difficult time with this. As a mageblade (who can cloak for well, let's just say a very long time), I don't come up against these problems. The only thing I can think of that might help you out OP is to make or invest in invisibility potions maybe? I make an invisibility potion that last for like 15 seconds.. if you used that going out the door.. you might be able to get away. Good luck in your future thieving.. may the sweet comfort of the shadows be with you always.

CherryCake

psygnosi wrote: »

I think the problem is the passive from thieve's guild skill line that suppose to give you a fast escape portal but I've never seen this work at all. Has anyone ever seen this work?

I did that passive works beautifully!

Whatzituyah

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Imagine getting cracked behind the head by six WB the second you get a bounty. Sounds like a blast

I know this could apply to thieving but take precautions? Only thing I can think of maybe make a potion of invisibility and movement speed? Think about it you get caught with a bounty pop the potion and run as fast as you can.

I have a compromise I would like to suggest what if guards weren't indoors atleast not normal guards. Lets put it this way say that there are killable guards indoors but theres a guard that wanders in and out of the building that does a patrol than leaves also detects stealth/invisible. This way a raid would have their fun atleast a little bit until this guard wanders in the building.

GivvumBoane

Whatzituyah wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Imagine getting cracked behind the head by six WB the second you get a bounty. Sounds like a blast

I know this could apply to thieving but take precautions? Only thing I can think of maybe make a potion of invisibility and movement speed? Think about it you get caught with a bounty pop the potion and run as fast as you can.

This response was about player "guards". I imagine if that was implemented, vulkhel guard would be camped by v16's waiting to gank some unlucky thief. Guards are easy to evade. They don't use doors.

Whatzituyah

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Imagine getting cracked behind the head by six WB the second you get a bounty. Sounds like a blast

I know this could apply to thieving but take precautions? Only thing I can think of maybe make a potion of invisibility and movement speed? Think about it you get caught with a bounty pop the potion and run as fast as you can.

This response was about player "guards". I imagine if that was implemented, vulkhel guard would be camped by v16's waiting to gank some unlucky thief. Guards are easy to evade. They don't use doors.

IMO I thought it through the problem is indoor guards I suggested a compromise whether or not its a good one? I doubt it because its an extra npc the server needs to keep track of and possibly a little RNG pathing.

GivvumBoane

Whatzituyah wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Imagine getting cracked behind the head by six WB the second you get a bounty. Sounds like a blast

I know this could apply to thieving but take precautions? Only thing I can think of maybe make a potion of invisibility and movement speed? Think about it you get caught with a bounty pop the potion and run as fast as you can.

This response was about player "guards". I imagine if that was implemented, vulkhel guard would be camped by v16's waiting to gank some unlucky thief. Guards are easy to evade. They don't use doors.

IMO I thought it through the problem is indoor guards I suggested a compromise whether or not its a good one? I doubt it because its an extra npc the server needs to keep track of and possibly a little RNG pathing.

Some people would prefer the guards to be killable, I would rather it stay as is. I am prepared to deal with the guards should the need arise, but I don't need players engaging in pvp in the name of justice just so they can get their jollies off beating up on little guys, because if that was implemented, it's the lower level zones that would be camped. Can't have a pvp'er attempting to enact justice on a pve player and some how getting stomped. That might be embarrassing, so the lowbies would take all the punishment from that setup

ShedsHisTail

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Thing is, you could totally do this in WoW, get a bunch of friends together and raid a city. It almost never happened. And the few times that it did, everything respawned in like five minutes.

It wasn't exactly game breaking.

GivvumBoane

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Thing is, you could totally do this in WoW, get a bunch of friends together and raid a city. It almost never happened. And the few times that it did, everything respawned in like five minutes.

It wasn't exactly game breaking.

That crap happened all the time when I played WoW. Auctioneers dead, quest givers dead, it sucked. It wasn't game breaking but it was an annoyance and an inconvenience

Lynx7386

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Open world pvp with the justice system might actually breathe some new life into this game.

Whatzituyah

GivvumBoane wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Thing is, you could totally do this in WoW, get a bunch of friends together and raid a city. It almost never happened. And the few times that it did, everything respawned in like five minutes.

It wasn't exactly game breaking.

That crap happened all the time when I played WoW. Auctioneers dead, quest givers dead, it sucked. It wasn't game breaking but it was an annoyance and an inconvenience

Well now its usually to go for the ruler of that major city now like Thrall in Ogrimmar. I can imagine a WoW like approach would have been fun in ESO but than again it would be worse than Cyrodiil probably. Oh I heard a huge raid Iron Forge crashed the server good example.

ShedsHisTail

Whatzituyah wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Also about killable guards, people would just group up and mass murder whole cities.

Which is where the other half of the justice system needs to come in: with player guards to take up a defense.

Are you actually listening to yourself? That is something that should not happen under any circumstance and you think this is up to debate? For other players to possibly defend the city?

Thing is, you could totally do this in WoW, get a bunch of friends together and raid a city. It almost never happened. And the few times that it did, everything respawned in like five minutes.

It wasn't exactly game breaking.

That crap happened all the time when I played WoW. Auctioneers dead, quest givers dead, it sucked. It wasn't game breaking but it was an annoyance and an inconvenience

Well now its usually to go for the ruler of that major city now like Thrall in Ogrimmar. I can imagine a WoW like approach would have been fun in ESO but than again it would be worse than Cyrodiil probably. Oh I heard a huge raid Iron Forge crashed the server good example.

Things have changed since my day.

Epona222

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Another night of thieving ruined by getting caught inside a building. Guard spams roots and wrecking blow, cant get away for long enough to get out a door, cant kill the guard or even incapacitate him long enough to get out the door.

I get that they dont want players coming in and griefing towns by killing everyone, including the guards, but making guards invulnerable is a bad way to do things. Hurry up and get the rest of the justice system implemented if that's what it takes (though, seriously now, we all know that will never actually happen).

Lynx: *Gets caught robbing*. *sees guard* Wait wait, lets duke it out like real men.

Fight ensues --> Thieving lynx manages to get guard to 0 HP. I WIN, thinks Lynx.

Guard: Thoust not know that I has no death? Translation: Hue hue hue I cant die you newblet!!!!!

Lynx: WTF???? Wait you are supposed to die when yo..... *dosent manage to finish sentence before guard does: *

Guard: WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

Lynx : X.X

lol, actually it was more like:

*gets caught*

*thinks: I'm new to this thieves thing but I'm a nightblade, I should be able to get away right?*

*tries to flee*

*guard spams talons and wrecking blow*

*tries to kite guard up stairs and jump over balcony to get enough distance to open door*

*fails*

*eventually gives up and lets guard kill him*


I dont have clemency or anything unlocked yet, which is probably the real issue here, but I think it's absolutely *** that you cant open a door just because a guard is after you. Are these magically enchanted doorlocks that are psychically linked to town guards, or are they thief-detecting doorlocks that somehow know when you have a bounty?

OK so this is a (I don't want to say L2P because I always think that sounds derogatory, and I don't want to do that) - more like a learn how it works thing.

Firstly look at your skills and gear - legerdemain skill has a passive that helps reduce sneak cost, medium armor has a passive that reduces detection radius. In terms of gear, Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer help you sneak at normal running speed, Nightshade reduces the radius at which you can be detected, a character that uses light can have necklace and 2 daggers on their back bar for thieving activities without affecting any of their light armor passives.

A good thief is well equipped with either crafted invisibility potions, or rogue's stealth potions that drop from thieves troves. You should not expect to have to use them, because a good thief doesn't get seen in the first place, but they are handy to have in case things go belly up, it occasionally happens to the best thieves - make sure that an appropriate potion is going to be used if you should have to hit the hotkey to use a consumable before you start thieving, you don't want to be glugging a tripot and waiting on the cooldown before you can take the right potion if you are caught in the act.

Thieving is not always a speed activity - when you are staking out a new area, watch the guards and NPCs to see where they patrol and wander. This can take a few minutes when you are thieving in a building or area for the first time, but it's worth taking the time to watch them, so that you can work out how long you have to open that strongbox, and at which point in the guard's patrol you should start to pick the lock to leave yourself enough time to open it. After you have robbed a particular building a few times it will become second nature and you will be able to do it more quickly. Remember that apart from strongboxes, all other theft related containers are instanced to you, it is not a race.

If you have a lapse of judgement and are spotted by a non-guard NPC, if indoors run to a corner where the guard does not patrol (if you watched them, you will know their route). If outdoors, run to the wilderness or if there is water nearby, jump into the water (docks are great places to practice your pickpocketing skill for this reason). You can then log out and play another character, or wait for your bounty to decay - if you have only been caught thieving and not killed anyone, your bounty will not be high and should decay fairly quickly - once your character is somewhere safe is a good time to look at some threads on these forums, or watch a couple of youtube vids if you don't have another character to play.

If you are accosted by a guard and want to flee, there are different methods depending upon whether you are indoors, or outdoors. If outdoors it is not too difficult - simply sprint as fast as you can out of town (jump in deep water if there is any around, otherwise head into the wilds) and CC break when they snare you - after a while they will stop chasing you, and you can wait out your bounty or go to Cyrodil or play another character or head to a refuge to pay it off to a fence - up to you. If indoors, it's important to immediately use that stealth potion that you have hotkeyed - glug it and run for the door, you can use a door if you haven't been in combat for a few seconds, and a potion will give you that breathing space - then once you are out of the building, try to avoid guards and follow the advice that I gave for if you are outdoors.

Most of all, enjoy thieving - if you are good at it, it is essentially free money.

Vangy

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Another night of thieving ruined by getting caught inside a building. Guard spams roots and wrecking blow, cant get away for long enough to get out a door, cant kill the guard or even incapacitate him long enough to get out the door.

I get that they dont want players coming in and griefing towns by killing everyone, including the guards, but making guards invulnerable is a bad way to do things. Hurry up and get the rest of the justice system implemented if that's what it takes (though, seriously now, we all know that will never actually happen).

Lynx: *Gets caught robbing*. *sees guard* Wait wait, lets duke it out like real men.

Fight ensues --> Thieving lynx manages to get guard to 0 HP. I WIN, thinks Lynx.

Guard: Thoust not know that I has no death? Translation: Hue hue hue I cant die you newblet!!!!!

Lynx: WTF???? Wait you are supposed to die when yo..... *dosent manage to finish sentence before guard does: *

Guard: WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB WB DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE

Lynx : X.X

lol, actually it was more like:

*gets caught*

*thinks: I'm new to this thieves thing but I'm a nightblade, I should be able to get away right?*

*tries to flee*

*guard spams talons and wrecking blow*

*tries to kite guard up stairs and jump over balcony to get enough distance to open door*

*fails*

*eventually gives up and lets guard kill him*


I dont have clemency or anything unlocked yet, which is probably the real issue here, but I think it's absolutely *** that you cant open a door just because a guard is after you. Are these magically enchanted doorlocks that are psychically linked to town guards, or are they thief-detecting doorlocks that somehow know when you have a bounty?

@Lynx7386 : DEATH BEFORE DISHONOUR. Come back with your shield or ON IT. NO RUNNING. FIGHT TO THE DEATH! Except your opponent cant DIE. HUE HUE HUE~ ZOS logic makes you jelly yes?

VShane

I'm curious, does the actions of the Guard seem faster with less delay (powers/hits etc) than say a players natural human reaction time? If so, should there not be a time buffer the emulate natural response time rather than the fast auto scripting of an AI?

GivvumBoane

VShane wrote: »

I'm curious, does the actions of the Guard seem faster with less delay (powers/hits etc) than say a players natural human reaction time? If so, should there not be a time buffer the emulate natural response time rather than the fast auto scripting of an AI?

I noticed that if you knock them down, they pop right back up instantly, and do the cc break animation.

Epona222

GivvumBoane wrote: »

VShane wrote: »

I'm curious, does the actions of the Guard seem faster with less delay (powers/hits etc) than say a players natural human reaction time? If so, should there not be a time buffer the emulate natural response time rather than the fast auto scripting of an AI?

I noticed that if you knock them down, they pop right back up instantly, and do the cc break animation.

And if you get their healthbar down, they auto-kill everyone in combat with them.

I know some people say it is immersion-breaking to have unkillable guards, but honestly I think it would break my immersion more to visit a town where someone had slaughtered all the guards, and it would make thieving less interesting if you could simply kill the guards.

GivvumBoane

Epona222 wrote: »

GivvumBoane wrote: »

VShane wrote: »

I'm curious, does the actions of the Guard seem faster with less delay (powers/hits etc) than say a players natural human reaction time? If so, should there not be a time buffer the emulate natural response time rather than the fast auto scripting of an AI?

I noticed that if you knock them down, they pop right back up instantly, and do the cc break animation.

And if you get their healthbar down, they auto-kill everyone in combat with them.

I know some people say it is immersion-breaking to have unkillable guards, but honestly I think it would break my immersion more to visit a town where someone had slaughtered all the guards, and it would make thieving less interesting if you could simply kill the guards.

Agreed @Epona222

Tommy1979AtWar

Know your characters skill limitations and don't get greedy.

Whatzituyah

Whatever you do when your a vampire don't bite a guard I learned the hard way. Yeah its immersion breaking either way so I have a compromise.

Like how I said maybe 2 posts before maybe more?

Whatzituyah wrote: »

I have a compromise I would like to suggest what if guards weren't indoors atleast not normal guards. Lets put it this way say that there are killable guards indoors but theres a guard that wanders in and out of the building that does a patrol than leaves also detects stealth/invisible. This way a raid would have their fun atleast a little bit until this guard wanders in the building.

Taisynn

nimander99 wrote: »

BlackguardBob wrote: »

There should be no such thing as invulnerability in ESO. That is just wrong imo. I was a "guard" in RL and I can assure you, I was and still am very vulnerable.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Invulnerability is just wrong in a Scrolls game... Its just WRONG

Let me guess - you downloaded the mod to kill Children in Skyrim?

Volkodav

dwtdwtdwt wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

PurifedBladez wrote: »

Open world pvp w/ killable guards.. so sweet.

Open world PvP,...where anyone can get ganked at any time
I'm gone.
And yes,you can have my stuff.

No, no. Open world pvp for those who have a bounty. That is different. If you don't have a bounty, then you have nothing to worry about. But, if people are having problems with city guards (for whatever reason, usually it is because they are clueless how the Justice System works), let them kill the guards to acquire more bounty. Then let other players hunt them down and collect on their bounty. What bliss.?.

Ooo,that might be fun! Have a class called The Bounty Hunter!

Saoirse_Siobhan

dwtdwtdwt wrote: »

No, no. Open world pvp for those who have a bounty. That is different. If you don't have a bounty, then you have nothing to worry about. But, if people are having problems with city guards (for whatever reason, usually it is because they are clueless how the Justice System works), let them kill the guards to acquire more bounty. Then let other players hunt them down and collect on their bounty. What bliss.?.

I'm usually against a pvp justice system but I admit this is a cool idea

STEVIL

I havent tried it yet but thought of hitting banks in pairs. One guy pickpockets to draw gusrd into menu.
.

While that goes on other thief nabs safebox and runs.

Go home and split proceeds.

Assumes one guard.

GreenhaloX

I hate those darn guards.. lol! Outside is fine. You have a fighting chance to escape, but inside a building or house.. forget it, you can't even exit the door. Even if you use clemency, it only last a couple minutes, and that same guard can re-try to arrest you. Found that out the hard way.

mtwiggz

You need to tell ZoS it ruins your immersion. In such case it will get hot fixed within hours.