Can we make jesus beam dodgerollable again yet/

The_Great_Maldini · June 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

Just stop with this nerf stuff already.
Really getting old.
Dodge rollers need something to stop them, when I use other abilities all I see is dodge, dodge, dodge, miss.
Maybe the dodge chance should be lowered (or fixed) then I might agree.

Lightning staff heavy attack works wonders.

Hymzir · June 2016

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

Well when ZOS said they "fixed" the ability so it can't be dodge rolled anymore, they never did that to other channeled abilities which are not ultimates.

You can dodge roll Flurry/ Rapid Strikes / Bloodthirst. It's a channel.
You can dodge roll Templar Jabs. It's a channel.

So why does Radiant Destruction get special treatment? It is clearly the most lethal of the channeled abilities.

So either make RD dodgeable again or bring all other channels up to par with it.

You can't dodge roll any channels - it's the whole point of channeled attacks. You can, however, dodge roll out of their AOE or out of range. Someone channeling you from extreme distance with a RD? Dodge roll away from the caster and the beam will break. Someone Jabbing you like crazy? Dodge roll out of the AOE and problem solved.

If you come across a channel that can be dodge rolled, and the incident is not explainable by getting out of AOE or out of reach, then that is a bug and should be reported to ZOS so that they can fix it. Not that there are all that many channels in the game to begin with.

Templars have three: RD, Jabs, and Heal Ulti. Not being able to dodge roll the Heal Ulti is meaningless, and whie you can dodge roll out of AOE of jab, you can't dodge roll out of the damage inside it's AOE.

Sorcs have 1 channel - Dark Exchange, which is not really relevant to dodge rolling. The beam of Summoned Lightning Atro counts as a channel I think, i.e. you can't dodge roll out of it, but the skill itself is not a channel - the Sorc who summoned the Atro is free to keep weaving other attacks while the Atro blasts with lightning.

Dual wield has Flurry and it's morphs - I don't have much experience with the skill, but it should not be dodge rollable per se, but it has a short reach. So you should be able to dodge roll out of it's range. Which should stop the channel since it's not an AOE, and going out of range should cut channels short. Not that you necessarily notice that, since it has a channel time of 0.6 seconds.

Then you have Soul Strike and it's morphs -and that thing is undodgeable,

Finally you have Resto and Lightning Staff heavy attacks and those too also ignore dodge rolling.

And that's, as far as I can tell, all channels in the game. At least stuff that is undodge rollable and ties the user down to channeling the attack. There are bunch of other undodge rollable stuff in the game, but they are not channels as such, and do not come with the limitations that all channels must deal with (i.e. ties you down, no animation cancelling allowed, vulnerable to counter attack.)

They all work pretty consistently as far as dodge rolling goes - i.e. they ignore it. They are all susceptible to LOS, out of range and interrupting the caster though. And Radiant is dealt with pretty much the same manner as all the other offensive ranged channels. Of which there are 4 in the game total: Lightning and Resto Staff Heavy attacks, Soul strike and Radiant.

Justice31st · June 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Still waiting for the balance, thanks.

Still waiting for the dodge roll balance as well. Thanks.

Justice31st · June 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with jesus beam

Apparently after multi nerfs of radiant destruction in the past year, people still can't figure out this L2P issue.

Justice31st · June 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

No. One of few if not the only thing that can hit perma dodge shuffle players. I know they want 100% immunity to any damage in the game, but no.

No one perma dodge rolls, not anymore, there are ways to stop people rolling, cc's, aoe etc...

Even sticking dots on people is effective and they can't dodge roll the dmg, the amount of people i've got low only for them to dodge roll and for my poison injection to crit hit them for 6.5k.

The evasiveness of max stamina, well fitted traited gear, engine guardian, bow speed passive, shuffle, etc. says differently.

Xexpo · June 2016

Honestly I think they made it non-dodgeable to fix the bug you got when someone did roll dodge it, not for balance
You would get stuck in the cast animation and be borked

Egonieser · June 2016

Yeah, but then we need much more severe nerfs to dodgerolling, but alas they actually buffed it with the well fitted trait so I say - no. There has to be a counter for everything, dodgeroll should not be an exception.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2016

I've admitted many times to be the absolute worst of the worst when it comes to being the back row Magplar spell spammer. Please understand the following ...

Dark Flare is way worse. You just notice RD because it ends you when, in reality, the DF was what put you on death row.

Regardless, I'm not going to apologize. There are dozens of counters to RD. Learn them.

leepalmer95 · June 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I've admitted many times to be the absolute worst of the worst when it comes to being the back row Magplar spell spammer. Please understand the following ...

Dark Flare is way worse. You just notice RD because it ends you when, in reality, the DF was what put you on death row.

Regardless, I'm not going to apologize. There are dozens of counters to RD. Learn them.

Nah you see i can dodge dark flare.

Yes there are counter, most being very very situational. Though dodging isn't one and it should be.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I've admitted many times to be the absolute worst of the worst when it comes to being the back row Magplar spell spammer. Please understand the following ...

Dark Flare is way worse. You just notice RD because it ends you when, in reality, the DF was what put you on death row.

Regardless, I'm not going to apologize. There are dozens of counters to RD. Learn them.

Oh right, that pretty much sums up how everyone should value your opinion.

leepalmer95 · June 2016

Egonieser wrote: »

Yeah, but then we need much more severe nerfs to dodgerolling, but alas they actually buffed it with the well fitted trait so I say - no. There has to be a counter for everything, dodgeroll should not be an exception.

why does an execute being dodgeable equate to dodge roll nerfs?

If people want to use well fitted they give up defence via not using impen/

Honestly some people are so unwilling to give up their easy 1 hit win OP skill.

WreckfulAbandon · June 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Yeah, but then we need much more severe nerfs to dodgerolling, but alas they actually buffed it with the well fitted trait so I say - no. There has to be a counter for everything, dodgeroll should not be an exception.

why does an execute being dodgeable equate to dodge roll nerfs?

If people want to use well fitted they give up defence via not using impen/

Honestly some people are so unwilling to give up their easy 1 hit win OP skill.

An "easy 1 hit win OP skill," RD certainly is not.

As a magplar I have to work hard to kill good opponents, especially shuffle rollers. Any skill can be considered OP if all we consider are zerglings/drunks sitting in the back of a group taking potshots. When a temp opens up on me with RD, I can already feel the AP in my pockets.

ScooberSteve · June 2016

You can dodgeroll jesus beam you just have to know how

leepalmer95 · June 2016

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Yeah, but then we need much more severe nerfs to dodgerolling, but alas they actually buffed it with the well fitted trait so I say - no. There has to be a counter for everything, dodgeroll should not be an exception.

why does an execute being dodgeable equate to dodge roll nerfs?

If people want to use well fitted they give up defence via not using impen/

Honestly some people are so unwilling to give up their easy 1 hit win OP skill.

An "easy 1 hit win OP skill," RD certainly is not.

As a magplar I have to work hard to kill good opponents, especially shuffle rollers. Any skill can be considered OP if all we consider are zerglings/drunks sitting in the back of a group taking potshots. When a temp opens up on me with RD, I can already feel the AP in my pockets.

Easy 1 win button, cast RD, have someone get targets hp to 50%~ , get a kill with no effort.

cpuScientist · June 2016

LOL people are explaining, in their arguments, the reason the skill is not OP. The only way it is effective is if it is spammed and in a zerg, you are litterally saying that if I get 2v1 and the other player is good enough to get you down to execute range that RD is OP....

LOL it only works if that templar has other people aka a ZERG HITTING YOU, if a ZERG spams freaking entropy on you you would die lol. That's how zergs work. If you are getting beaten down and JB kills you it because you were in a bad situation with too much aggro on you and should have left the building lol.

Go to duels, it really sucks in duels. On my magplar it is better to just keep sweeping, maybe I would use it when they hit 10-15% but honestly much better abilities for a duel take that slot. So it only shines in open world zerg combat, IF the templars side has the numbers. And if we are crying about things being OP in pvp, I think there are other things that come to mind.

When I am fighting a templar and they are spamming JB, I just knock em down and collect AP, if I am fighting 2 3 skilled players in an open field and I am alone against them, welp well I am in a bad spot and should not expect to win, if the other 2 players are able to get me to execute range while the templar is in the back spamming JB, well I would not have won that anyway, in fact I would be happy because if they were instead jabbing me I would have died much quicker lol.

I hate when players say this, because they are usually saying it to taunt or ignore mechanics or the truth of the matter, or have not experienced the topic and just want to troll but in this instance it really applies so sorry but this is a L2P issue if there ever was one.

TequilaFire · June 2016

I can range attack you with snipe while my buddies beat on you and you will be just as dead. FFS

leepalmer95 · June 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can range attack you with snipe while my buddies beat on you and you will be just as dead. FFS

To avoid your buddies attack i'd dodge roll, it would then avoid your snipes (who uses snipe...)

But with RD, nah.

Kammakazi · June 2016

So you want the range to be reduced?

Stay away from my dungeons and trials.

Reapor · June 2016

would this be a idea,

*Keep the damage the same
*lower bonus damage activation to <= 30%MaxHP
*allow dodge roll to break the channel
*make the cost function like overloads aoe channel (example you require 50 ulti to activate, but it ticks 10 ulti a second)

IMO it makes the skill way better to use as a execute and allows more uses opposed to 1 cast and im spent, allows "fairer" way to deal with it that is equal to other executes.

So a slight nerf to damage effectiveness but a buff to its utility.

PS, would be a massive buff in pve

a1i3nz · June 2016

Jesus Beam really needs to come with a stun and empower! #balance

arkansas_ESO · June 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Reapor wrote: »

All it needs is the extra damage lowering from activating at 50% to 25%.

Btw anyone who thinks 1 shotting people from 50% is fine, are morons.

Not that i disagree... But doesnt that mean any skill that can pull off 8-10k in a hit needs nerfed? Oh wait, im sure jesus beam is the only skill that can do that.

What other skills can consistently hit for 8-10k, have a range of 28m, and can hit for 8-10k back to back? (ex. Snipe takes time to cast in between hits, while Jesus Beam will tick back to back once it's connected, not to mention Snipe is both reflectable and dodgeable while Jesus Beam is neither)

Zheg · June 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can range attack you with snipe while my buddies beat on you and you will be just as dead. FFS

To avoid your buddies attack i'd dodge roll, it would then avoid your snipes (who uses snipe...)

But with RD, nah.

Better debate opponents than you have tried and failed to call for nerfs. None have been able to actually back them up with solid evidence or logic of why it's over-performing. With that said, I'm not even going to bother talking about jesus beam with you because it's been done to death. Here's what I will talk about - rock paper scissor. Jesus beam and invigorating drain are the only single target abilities that cannot be dodged (besides meteor, but that's an ult). The only ones. When stam builds get low on health and start spamming dodge roll while they wait out their vigor ticks and pop a rally, it's not because they're skillfully determining when and what to dodge, they just start dodging. The reason you said you don't care about dark flare is because when you get threatened you just start dodging until your hp is back to safe levels, and therefore you never have to worry about attacks unless you get ult dumped on. Jesus beam is the exception because it's a common skill that prevents your dodge roll from covering just about every single defensive base you realistically need while at low health. Your dodge roll is rock, jesus beam is paper. Scissors would be some of the magicka builds you're able to rekt on a stam build and ignore all of their damage if you get pressured because you can dodge it all, but jesus beam doesn't work so well against them.

You want rock to beat both scissors and paper. That's why you get no traction on these #nerfplz threads. If you want jesus beam to be dodgeable, well, fine, that could be a thing - but then you need to give up some of your advantages over scissors to compensate for having your counter lessened, and that's not something I've heard people be willing to do.

Egonieser · June 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Yeah, but then we need much more severe nerfs to dodgerolling, but alas they actually buffed it with the well fitted trait so I say - no. There has to be a counter for everything, dodgeroll should not be an exception.

why does an execute being dodgeable equate to dodge roll nerfs?

If people want to use well fitted they give up defence via not using impen/

Honestly some people are so unwilling to give up their easy 1 hit win OP skill.

Dude, dodgeroll is the most effective form of defense. You don't need impen or resistances because dodgeroll is a guaranteed 100℅ damage mitigation to a direct damage attack, which is better than any armour or buff can provide. This form of defense has only a very few counters, one of them being RD, others include less effective skills like curse, inevitable detonation, streak, but they are not that reliable.

At the moment I main on a Stamblade and I find templars just fine. If I am on low health for RD to be a threat - I was done for anyway, otherwise I just ambush to the templar, interrupt and instagib him because guess what - they are vulnerable as heck while casting it.

leepalmer95 · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can range attack you with snipe while my buddies beat on you and you will be just as dead. FFS

To avoid your buddies attack i'd dodge roll, it would then avoid your snipes (who uses snipe...)

But with RD, nah.

Better debate opponents than you have tried and failed to call for nerfs. None have been able to actually back them up with solid evidence or logic of why it's over-performing. With that said, I'm not even going to bother talking about jesus beam with you because it's been done to death. Here's what I will talk about - rock paper scissor. Jesus beam and invigorating drain are the only single target abilities that cannot be dodged (besides meteor, but that's an ult). The only ones. When stam builds get low on health and start spamming dodge roll while they wait out their vigor ticks and pop a rally, it's not because they're skillfully determining when and what to dodge, they just start dodging. The reason you said you don't care about dark flare is because when you get threatened you just start dodging until your hp is back to safe levels, and therefore you never have to worry about attacks unless you get ult dumped on. Jesus beam is the exception because it's a common skill that prevents your dodge roll from covering just about every single defensive base you realistically need while at low health. Your dodge roll is rock, jesus beam is paper. Scissors would be some of the magicka builds you're able to rekt on a stam build and ignore all of their damage if you get pressured because you can dodge it all, but jesus beam doesn't work so well against them.

You want rock to beat both scissors and paper. That's why you get no traction on these #nerfplz threads. If you want jesus beam to be dodgeable, well, fine, that could be a thing - but then you need to give up some of your advantages over scissors to compensate for having your counter lessened, and that's not something I've heard people be willing to do.

How to handle dodge rollers, use aoe. I'm sure it won't be too hard to simply throw a luminious shards to cc a dodge roller then kill them. Or is that too hard and templars are used to just pressing a button and wrecking anything that attempts to dodge roll.

Funny i can survive RD on my mag build because shields are strong, i can simply stack shields and laugh at how you can't crit me and therefore heal the dmg.

Can't do that on a stam build, Mag builds cast shield to heal or use high healing skills, stam builds pop vigor or rally and dodge roll to give it time to actually work.

Jesus beam is too strong of a skill.

Long range.

Cannot be dodged.

The first tick is instant, by the time you realise it's on you you've already been hit with 1 tick and are going to be hit by another by the time you click a skill.

Increases at 50%, every other ranged execute starts at 25%, people can kill dodge rollers just fine with them.

Double dips into cp. It does enough dmg already but not benefits from two dmg cp stars.

Please tell me what other executes have on this?

DisgracefulMind · June 2016

No.

Necrelios · June 2016

I second this. Or just convert it to an ultimate ability. Right now it's like a spammable ultimate that if used near a keep or resource (with that keep range bonus passive unlocked) can hit you from an extreme distance; almost as far as wrecking blow

.

Rikumaru · June 2016

So people find an undodgeable EXECUTE fine? Well in that case can I have my executioner, impale, killer blade and endless fury to be undodgeable too please?

Duiwel · June 2016

OP try using shuffle or breaking LoS or you know bashing the caster? So many things you can do other than whine...

When I play on my DK or NB I don't whine when I get beamed, I get even...

Zheg · June 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can range attack you with snipe while my buddies beat on you and you will be just as dead. FFS

To avoid your buddies attack i'd dodge roll, it would then avoid your snipes (who uses snipe...)

But with RD, nah.

Better debate opponents than you have tried and failed to call for nerfs. None have been able to actually back them up with solid evidence or logic of why it's over-performing. With that said, I'm not even going to bother talking about jesus beam with you because it's been done to death. Here's what I will talk about - rock paper scissor. Jesus beam and invigorating drain are the only single target abilities that cannot be dodged (besides meteor, but that's an ult). The only ones. When stam builds get low on health and start spamming dodge roll while they wait out their vigor ticks and pop a rally, it's not because they're skillfully determining when and what to dodge, they just start dodging. The reason you said you don't care about dark flare is because when you get threatened you just start dodging until your hp is back to safe levels, and therefore you never have to worry about attacks unless you get ult dumped on. Jesus beam is the exception because it's a common skill that prevents your dodge roll from covering just about every single defensive base you realistically need while at low health. Your dodge roll is rock, jesus beam is paper. Scissors would be some of the magicka builds you're able to rekt on a stam build and ignore all of their damage if you get pressured because you can dodge it all, but jesus beam doesn't work so well against them.

You want rock to beat both scissors and paper. That's why you get no traction on these #nerfplz threads. If you want jesus beam to be dodgeable, well, fine, that could be a thing - but then you need to give up some of your advantages over scissors to compensate for having your counter lessened, and that's not something I've heard people be willing to do.

How to handle dodge rollers, use aoe. I'm sure it won't be too hard to simply throw a luminious shards to cc a dodge roller then kill them. Or is that too hard and templars are used to just pressing a button and wrecking anything that attempts to dodge roll.

Funny i can survive RD on my mag build because shields are strong, i can simply stack shields and laugh at how you can't crit me and therefore heal the dmg.

Can't do that on a stam build, Mag builds cast shield to heal or use high healing skills, stam builds pop vigor or rally and dodge roll to give it time to actually work.

Jesus beam is too strong of a skill.

Long range.

Cannot be dodged.

The first tick is instant, by the time you realise it's on you you've already been hit with 1 tick and are going to be hit by another by the time you click a skill.

Increases at 50%, every other ranged execute starts at 25%, people can kill dodge rollers just fine with them.

Double dips into cp. It does enough dmg already but not benefits from two dmg cp stars.

Please tell me what other executes have on this?

Most templars running in a group do run blazing spears because you use aoe against other groups and the synergy helps your own group. It is NOT a good skill for solo play because it's a highly telegraphed skill like all of our others and has a noticeable delay between when you cast it and where it lands. Even eruption responds better, and DKs have always complained about the performance of that skill in lag. Ground based aoes have always had problems. Your argument that people should use aoe is asinine. "Hey guys, come spam impulse on me to finish me off while my vigor ticks away, don't pay any attention to the fact that one tick from that hot will heal more than your aoe will damage for." Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Can I enlist your l33t theorycrafting services for our raid?

Thank you for proving my point. Magicka builds don't struggle with jesus beam because they are scissors. Stam struggle because they are rock. What don't you understand about that? That's balance. Rock beating everything is not balance, and you will not convince rational people that the game should be catered to that kind of lobsided environment. All of the other points are asinine ones that have been exhaustively explained in the dozens of other threads. Here's the cliffnotes version since you clearly seem to have missed the party:

Long range: it's the same range as dark flare and all of the other max range skills, including bow's ranged interrupt. Snipe is even longer in range.

Cannot be dodged: see rock paper scissor, again.

Instant first tick: this being invisible seems to be a bug and I've yet to see a templar argue this shouldn't be fixed. This isn't balance, this is coding.

Execute scaling: no other ranged execute shares the vulnerabilities of jesus beam (puts a snare on yourself, cannot be blockcasted, makes you go into a channel allowing you to be interrupted and take more damage from common passives as well as get CC'd, is a bright telegraph that you should be a focused target and gives away your position, can be LOS'd, interrupted, cloaked, and purged, is far more expensive than all other executes and that magicka is wasted if one of the counters is employed, performs poorly in lag because it's a channel and not instant), so of course it's going to have its own strengths over other executes. I'd still prefer mage's wrath on my templar.

Double dips in CP (yes, your defense should too, thick skinned works on bats, banners, nova, jesus beam, poison arrow, DK dots, caltrops, you name it - if you're not putting points in here you are not as good at making a build as you think you are)

You can argue as much as you like, but again, better debaters than you have already tried and failed. I'll give you the same deal - provide video evidence of it actually over-performing on reasonable builds (attacker and defender) and I will help champion nerfs for the skill. I've been waiting for months.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · June 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Reapor wrote: »

All it needs is the extra damage lowering from activating at 50% to 25%.

Btw anyone who thinks 1 shotting people from 50% is fine, are morons.

Not that i disagree... But doesnt that mean any skill that can pull off 8-10k in a hit needs nerfed? Oh wait, im sure jesus beam is the only skill that can do that.

What other skills can consistently hit for 8-10k, have a range of 28m, and can hit for 8-10k back to back? (ex. Snipe takes time to cast in between hits, while Jesus Beam will tick back to back once it's connected, not to mention Snipe is both reflectable and dodgeable while Jesus Beam is neither)

I dont know? But that isnt what he said is it? He said anyone who thinks 1 shotting from 50% is fine is a moron.

He didnt say anyone who thinks one shotting people from 50% is fine is a moron but only in these conditions and in these circumstances.

But because im curious, so you are fine with 1 shotting from 50% health? If so you might want to talk to him. I think he called you a moron.

maxjapank · June 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

RD is fine. Quit whining. Learn to counter it like everyone else does

I can only purify so many times while dealing with 4 or 5 other people

If you're fighting 4-5 people, you're likely gonna die. It's not the skill, it's the numbers.