In my experience stickying something is often the best way to get it ignored. A lot of people get so used to looking past the pinned threads they don't notice when a new one is there. Having lots of pinned threads tends to make this worse.
Yes, that could happen, but the trade off for NOT doing it is the current chaotic mess we have now where people are looking for information and unable to find it. So they post a thread. They promptly get jumped on by people saying it's over there buried 30 pages deep in a thread that's already scrolled off the first few pages.
With a sticky, at least for major stuff, you'll simply be able to point people to that and be done with it when they inevitably open a thread anyway. The rest of us will see it there. This forum software is better at making stickies obvious than the current software running Bethesda.net. Probably even better at making them visually obvious than IPB is too.
If you want to report someone for game behavior, your best options are to report them in-game or submit a support ticket detailing the problem.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Additionally, we have been advised to discuss privately with mods regarding their actions instead of specifically naming them in public. What are we to do when those private messages, with legitimate questions, are ignored? There are discussions popping up all over these forums and other non-affiliated forums about the moderating habits of particular individuals and whether or not they are nefariously covering up bugs and problems. I know the forum rules explicitly forbid conspiracy theories, but you can kind of see how the unilateral actions of a mod or two with no feedback can foster this.
This is true. It is expected, particularly with a fan-base passionate about the game, that conversations will occasionally stray beyond the acceptable. It's also why we have a team of moderators, and why we don't ban accounts on a single offence. As much as possible, we want to try and educate people for this very reason, and that's also the purpose of this thread.It seems to me that in encouraging open, honest and frank discussion throughout the forums, with no desire to quieten any particular topic, an environment has been created in which discussion can quickly turn non-constructive. This isn't a criticism of the environment, it is simply an observation. But, sadly, there is an inevitability about it all. By extending this freedom to users of the forums and accepting that disagreements and slightly heated, but passionate debates can be useful - both to you, and to us - such freedom will continue to create scenarios where people occasionally stray too far across that line where moderators feel the need to step in.
If it wasn't so time-intensive, we'd love to have a lengthy conversation about the rules whenever someone is warned. The more people understand the rules, and why they are in place, the more likely they are to abide by them. Better yet, it helps get people invested in the forums, and when people are invested in the community they're less likely to intentionally cause problems.
Unintentional problems are also worth considering, and another reason for handing out multiple warnings. Some communities are more rough-and-tumble than others.I don't believe allowing the public shaming of people believed to be causing problems would result in much constructive discussion. In fact, even with the rule in place we've removed a lot of naming and shaming that was erroneous. This tends to escalate quickly, rather than keeping the discussion even-tempered and constructive.Furthermore, many of the moderator rules do little to actually foster important discussion. Naming and shaming with regards to your current exploit fiasco would be the first case I'd point to. Moderators frequently cite issues as 'baiting' but cherry pick which posts in a long list they consider baiting. In actuality, baiting would cover a huge percentage of posts on these forums, and this plays into the multiple points raised so far in this thread regarding your moderator consistency.
Baiting and trolling can be very nebulous, or contextual. If it isn't, chances are it's breaking other rules as well: It's easy when someone is being unconstructive and provocative, or insulting, or disrespectful. In other situations, it can be difficult to discern intention. But this is why we try and review reports of baiting carefully, why we try to issue educational PMs and warnings for offences, and why we're open to further review if content is appealed.Spiderman memes were being used specifically to cause problems for a while, but generally any thread that devolves into a list of memes has gone off topic and needs to be cleaned up.Threads have been shut down for including spiderman themed memes, all other memes are fine, but not spiderman ones because moderators don't understand their own rules. Threads are edited/removed because the topic was on firor's interview and his name was in the title. Players on the PTS were warned about divulging exploits because they included a video of how every gap closer was bugged. I could go on and on with examples, but it's hysterical that you expect people to respect the rules when you guys don't even seem to understand them.
We're more permissive about exploits being discussed on the PTS forums, but actual instructions or evidence should be sent in privately, same as with the rest of the forums.We actually have a solution outlined, but implementing it requires arranging the time to develop and test it, which is resource-intensive. This being said, if anyone has alternative solutions we're happy to hear them.Can we have the hot, dirty nerd details on why this is so hard? There are plenty of forum administrators in your player base - perhaps they can identify a solution for you.
We need a system that separately highlights developer comments, customer support, and moderation. However, some staff post across multiple categories, so any solution can't simply be account based. While it would be great to have these present different Z icons on threads, the system also needs to treat all staff posts the same for other mechanics, like jumping between staff posts. A toggle on posts, that allows staff to select what sort of post they're making is probably the easiest solution. Preferably one that remembers your preference, and perhaps limits access to the types of categories someone has. Again, outlining the solution isn't difficult, but prioritizing the resources is more complicated.
In the meantime, developer comments tend to be added to the Dev Tracker. It's not a perfect solution, but it does highlight the posts more players are interested in.
A moderator banned someone because they had been 'warned not to post spiderman themed memes' in posts. If you can't see the lunacy at face value, engaging with you is pointless.
The PTS exploit I mentioned was air quotes, there were no exploits, just a demonstration of the poor code ZOS used in the DB patch, and a moderator deemed it an exploit.
As to naming and shaming, there is a reason the law differentiates between slander and factual statements. Slander needs to be moderated, hard evidence of cheating, abuse, and breaking rules needs to be championed so as to discourage copy cats and repeat offenders. A game like this is as much social as it is a game; your anti naming and shaming policy inhibits any real consequences on the social side. It also leads to division and confusion between players because many want proof before making a judgement so these discussions devolve into back forths where one side claims wrongdoing and the other claims L2P, lies, or misunderstanding. Do you find those conversations to be productive? We don't. Whether or not you agree, you'll at least be hard-pressed to deny that the policy has done irreparable harm to the company image and how you're viewed when handling exploits.
My earlier point about ZOS silence fomenting the very negativity your OP sought to address can be clearly seen in the perma-ban lifting thread. Jessica has responded to benign threads all day, but the lack of response on that thread is furthering visceral disdain with every post. Again, I reiterate that many of the problems you talk about in the OP are self inflicted and you need to get your house in order first.
[We actually have a solution outlined, but implementing it requires arranging the time to develop and test it, which is resource-intensive. This being said, if anyone has alternative solutions we're happy to hear them.Can we have the hot, dirty nerd details on why this is so hard? There are plenty of forum administrators in your player base - perhaps they can identify a solution for you.
[We actually have a solution outlined, but implementing it requires arranging the time to develop and test it, which is resource-intensive. This being said, if anyone has alternative solutions we're happy to hear them.Can we have the hot, dirty nerd details on why this is so hard? There are plenty of forum administrators in your player base - perhaps they can identify a solution for you.
Appoint certain moderators to spend their time going through all of the forums every day.It can easily be done.I know this because I tend to go through almost all the threads just in General Discussion alone(which is the most active),at least once a day.
I do it for a game break while drinking my lovely Hazlenut coffee.
If I can take the time to wander through and see all the inflammatory and awefully hurtful coments and threads,without pay mind you,..I dont see why you cant appoint one moderator to do it as well.
Not being snarky.
(adding my "safety Smiley" now: )
As someone who was previously a volunteer moderator for Bethesda, and now helps manage the volunteer program on the BethSoft and Bethesda.net forums, I'm a strong supporter of such programs. At the moment, it isn't something we are planning to roll out here. There are a few current issues that prevent us from doing this well, and setting it up for long term success.AmberLaTerra wrote: »That is actually a quite good idea, and one I have seen used in many other games that I have played in the past. It both gives the players who use the forums a feeling of more involvement in the community that is the forums, and gives the ZOS employee mods a resource that enables them to focus more on the threads that need their attention.
Half a day before locking that thread we commented on the importance of keeping it open. We stand by that, it is important to keep discussions like that open, and it wasn't an easy decision to lock it. But in our experience, when threads like this get past a certain point it can help for everyone to step back for a moment.I understand the reasons for locking the thread however I don't think you realise how bad it comes off. Yes it was getting pretty heated but the issues being discussed have plagued this game since launch and we the community have never had any real communication or feedback since the early days of bank duplication and botting.
The discussion has been about your general moderation policies, with specific examples given to emphasize points and serve as evidence of the validity of said points. Discussing this, or any specific issue with you via PM will likely be as unfruitful as this thread, so I'll pass. Continue asking people to play nice while willfully ignoring the fact that the driving factor behind the need for you to even make that request of us to begin with has been your company policies and reliably terrible communication.Hi everyone. This thread was made to explain our expectations for civil and constructive discussion on the forums. Some general discussion of moderation policy is acceptable, but please do not discuss specific examples. If you wish to appeal moderation decision, you can submit a support ticket. If you wish to discuss the recent decision to lock the exploit threads, you are welcome to PM me. In the meantime, we are locking or removing threads about this matter. Several posts have also been removed from this thread.
Appoint certain moderators to spend their time going through all of the forums every day.It can easily be done.I know this because I tend to go through almost all the threads just in General Discussion alone(which is the most active),at least once a day.
clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »This thread is another joke. There can not be constructive criticism when there is no transparency from ZOS. There will be no one left for you to moderate if you do not change how you police your game. Police your game as hard as you police your forums and these types of threads will not be necessary.
clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »This thread is another joke. There can not be constructive criticism when there is no transparency from ZOS. There will be no one left for you to moderate if you do not change how you police your game. Police your game as hard as you police your forums and these types of threads will not be necessary.
That is a straw man argument. This is the internet there will always be raging.
I understand the game has issues.Every single MMO has issues just as bad if not worse they might be different issues, but all MMO's have them.
The forums really aren't policed that hard, there are some trolls that should have been banned long ago that are still around, and some who are feel that it's worth buying another CD key just to troll the forums. I know personally two people that do that. Heck at quake con last year I heard people say they want ESO to fail because they believe that ES games should only be single player and it will force Bethesda to make ES six faster How incredibly stupid is that?
What I think is sad is the folks who really enjoy this game but feel like they can't post anything positive because they will get dog-piled by the hate machine.
I think that the PVP issue is serious and should be addressed, I also think a lot of the PVP player base is going about how they are complaining the wrong way. Being a jerk isn't going to get you what you want, especially if your demographic isn't the majority. Offer Ideas alternatives stick with it have folks who are going to Quake Con discuss this with whoever will listen.
That is how to evoke change.
I agree dodgehopper but getting the community to stop posting L2P and waving their epeens around is just never going to happen. There is too much ego in this community.
pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »@dodgehopper_ESO I agree, how hard is it to post something positive? I see so many comment in thread after thread negative negative. It doesn't make any sense to me because why would you waste time here if you didn't enjoy some aspect of this game? Time is not renewable you don't get it back and it's finite. Why waste it on being negative on a gaming forum constantly, generally speaking.
The forum moderators are just that, forum moderators. Often we're not in a position to answer those questions because we simply do not have the information, or we know the generalities but not the specifics. It's also worth noting that the forum moderation team operates across all of Bethesda's forums, so while we keep apprised of the games we cover, there are a lot of them.FaydayanUK wrote: »i have really simple question, will there ever come a time when mods will actually start answering questions instead of moderating threads and leaving them without answe
Warnings don't expire. However, we do note the age of past infractions when actioning an account, and we may be more lenient with someone if they had a few warnings a long while back but haven't been a problem since. We don't want long time members to be unduly punished, but there's also a point where someone really ought to know better.So with the 3 strikes rule do we get those strikes back over time. Eg I have 1 I know will I get that back say in a few months or something or will it be permanently with me?
But it isn't the only way. It is one of several ways you can approach communication with others, but is one which, in my opinion, has the fewest benefits to the general community.FaydayanUK wrote: »because it is the only way to get it fixed and get the problem to be noticed
This moderation team began as ESO exclusive back in beta, and only more recently expanded to assist on other Bethesda forums. This expansion didn't change our role here, it just brought us to some new locations. Everyone on the moderation team is well-versed with ESO.The forum mods aren't actually Zenimax employees, they're Bethesda employees who moderate the forums for all of their games.
There's no requirement that everyone be positive, and criticism is quite valuable. However, it is also important that all discussion be kept constructive, particularly when commenting on the views of others. One of the reasons for posting this thread was to specifically highlight that criticism and debate is perfectly acceptable, but to suggest some ways to ensure it remains constructive so we can help ensure a respectful atmosphere on the forums.Daganerabus wrote: »I just now read the ABOVE POST.... and it FEELS as if YOU GUYS DO NOT Want to REALLY LISTEN to us?! That YOU DO NOT WANT PPL TO HAVE an *EXPRESSED OPINION* .. . And expect everyone to just be absolutely POSITIVE! And 100 percent friendly and say.. THANK YOU Eso/Zenimax for upsetting us, for not listening to us, for banning ppl for expressing themselves and HAVING AN OPINION...
Blocking a term can create its own problems. These are often used in an inflammatory or trollish manner, but this isn't always the case, and out of the context of MMO discussion they're unproblematic.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »I would like to propose filtering stereotypical slang on these forums. The following words and pair of words would be censored if this happens: