How can we make AvA group play for PUG players without voicechat more attractive?

Thraben · June 2016

zone: LfG, LfG, LfG... you know, life can be hard for those without a PvP- Guild and/ or without voicechat.
I as a PvP raid leader only invite strangers if they have at least voicechat (in my native tongue), because I don´t want to burden my raid with someone not following the crown and unable to communicate spontanious threats like a huge deto zerg coming from behind. Those who lead pure PUG zergs are very often punished for it by desastrous and emberassing defeats at the hands of a few players But the game offers good opportunities for those without guilds and voicechat in PvE (the finally working group search tool), so what can be done for those players to enjoy the AvA?

Farorin · June 2016

all of above

Some of these additions would be a godsend for PUGs. I myself hate teamspeak due to obnoxious people, and loud people, plus I like to listen to music, so these additions would be welcomed indeed.

Fischblut · June 2016

The raid leader should be able to project simple commands on the screen of all group members, similar to the gms, instead of the chat which no one reads

I can't use TS, but I'm always willing to read and discuss all possible tactics in chat before the action starts. Real problem is when group members don't read and don't discuss...

Derra · June 2016

It´s really simple:

- reduce grp size considerably for AvA (6 to 8 players)

- suddenly there won´t be 20 ppl showing up when one of the players lagging behind gets intercepted

- it will be considerably harder to coordinate movement on the fly without having everyone in the same grp ui (i know ppl will claim that´s not going to be an issue - it will be - raids always have 1 or two ppl lagging behind and now the lead won´t notice in ui etc pp - it would tremendously weaken organized ball grps if they had to split into 3 grps instead of having everyone in one)

- it makes building a grp easier because you now only need ~6 ppl to compete and participate instead of 20+ (lowering the number of players needed for participation is the key to making cyrodiil more attractive)

- one grp won´t be enough to participate in every content cyrodiil offers

I really feel the current large grp/ raid UI only benefits large well organized grps.
Imo organisation and coordination of more than 20 people should be an achievement in itself and not be mostly taken over by the games UI (which is currently the case).

Rune_Relic · June 2016

1. You make a scouting group and send 1/2 man to different areas (with a lead).
2. You make a resource group and send 4/6 man to multiple resource at once (with a lead).
3. Then you add a primary group to hit targets and be an obvious target.
4. The main groups can then wait in the shadows as support.

Anazasi · June 2016

all of above

while i think all of these aspects would be nice additions to the group mechanics, I feel that ZOS, by adding more flag capture points on the map will make a big difference to most of the issues. I realize also that many players do not like voice chat while I also know most group leaders only want you to be able to listen in most cases. I also know that the trepidation of using a voice chat system is sometimes based on the player feeling a little shy. Here is the real issue however, trust. With the ease of cross faction playing, its hard to know if you are inviting a spy into group. Players discount this as not being significant, but i can tell you of times when groups have been wiped in the field simply because location was given away. The best advice i can offer to anyone looking for groups of organized play is this. Find a guild that is recruiting. Speak with the players, and get to know them. Build a relationship with them and don't be shy.

zyk · June 2016

Zenimax should give the option that everyone in the group can see which target is a marked player aiming at, similar to the already existing "lock target" option

Please no. So ezmode.

The raid leader should be able to hire a flag carrying npc whose flag shows the guild symbol and is better visible than the often ignored "crown"

Or get the Papacrown addon.

I don't love TS, but I do think it's a requirement for competitive play. I do not think dumbing down battlefield coordination with easy to use tools will change that. TS groups will benefit equally from the proposed changes so the gap between voice comm and text comm groups will remain.

The type of problem your poll paints is one of focus, not tools. Making the game even easier is not the answer.

If you don't like voice comms, I suggest small group play. It is much easier to play off teammates in a smaller group than it is with a massive horde.

HoloYoitsu · June 2016

Bruh, where is the option for: "ZOS should fix their damn game (lag & broken skills), then hire actually competent people to balance the game."

Cuz that more than anything else would make play without voice chat more attractive - simply by making playing the game, period, more attractive.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

I don't believe in groups .

Like in real life , if I decide to hang out with Jimmy , Daniel , Stev , Jason , Mark , Denise , Jen , Paul and Elena ..., there's no Majic icon that goes up over our heads to show everyone where everybody goes . Also it makes drinking in Mexico very challenging hard mode .

Aisle9 · June 2016

We have enough lag and therefore we have no interest in even more zergs

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't believe in groups .

Like in real life , if I decide to hang out with Jimmy , Daniel , Stev , Jason , Mark , Denise , Jen , Paul and Elena ..., there's no Majic icon that goes up over our heads to show everyone where everybody goes . Also it makes drinking in Mexico very challenging hard mode .

That ^

kinggingernator · June 2016

We have enough lag and therefore we have no interest in even more zergs

Random pugs are slightly less aids than the organized guilds since they don't all sprint back to deal with the guy 1vXing the back 5 members, so lets keep it that way.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

all of above

Most of these are basic UI features in just about any MMO/MOBA. Focus target frame, I need healing/help options etc.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · June 2016

The raid leader should be able to promote players to raid officers who are able to invite players in their own

Running a non-TS pug is an exercise in utmost patience.

Trying to type, fight, look for LFGs in chat.

We need a "promote to officer" feature so that someone that isn't crown can invite/kick. We also need a merge/group feature.

In the long run, TS groups will always outperform PUGs but most new players experiences begin in a PUG and we need all the player retention we can get.

Bramir · June 2016

The biggest mistake PUG leaders make is trying to go on the offensive except as reinforcements. It is easy enough to type a keep name in chat, so keep it simple and defend. Let the supposedly 'organized' groups with TS do the offensive stuff, since instructions are more likely to change when on offense. When the time comes to reinforce one of these efforts, give one line of instructions telling your squad which keep to siege, and preferably which side/resource. Don't expect to change these instructions halfway to the keep and have everyone notice...it is important to realize your limitations.

Most importantly, if a few people don't follow and choose to join a different battle, just leave them be...they may actually provide useful intelligence. Since you aren't trying to siege keeps by yourself, it is less important to have a full squad...

Just some thoughts from someone who has led PUGs since launch without TS...

Also, just an observation about these 'pain train' TS groups. Most of them are terrible and just run around in circles in a tight group accomplishing nothing until they get wiped...sometimes by a PUG!

holosoul · June 2016

all of above

It would be helpful to have focus targets (even in small scale). We shouldn't need addons to see a minimap of our team locations. The current right-click ping could really stand to have a "hold" option that lets you create arrows and waypoints, perhaps even multiples with different colors for different paths or path groups. We should be able to mark the map with prime siege locations and important information such as terrain that we want to control, bad terrain, intersectional terrain and choke points, as well as general points of interest. Basically the map component of the UI is lackluster, and targeting is lackluster.

Every scale of team would benefit from having sharper tools here, but PUGs least of all because let's be real, ain't nobody got time foh dat

Kas · June 2016

We have enough lag and therefore we have no interest in even more zergs

Derra wrote: »

It´s really simple:

- reduce grp size considerably for AvA (6 to 8 players)

- suddenly there won´t be 20 ppl showing up when one of the players lagging behind gets intercepted

- it will be considerably harder to coordinate movement on the fly without having everyone in the same grp ui (i know ppl will claim that´s not going to be an issue - it will be - raids always have 1 or two ppl lagging behind and now the lead won´t notice in ui etc pp - it would tremendously weaken organized ball grps if they had to split into 3 grps instead of having everyone in one)

- it makes building a grp easier because you now only need ~6 ppl to compete and participate instead of 20+ (lowering the number of players needed for participation is the key to making cyrodiil more attractive)

- one grp won´t be enough to participate in every content cyrodiil offers

I really feel the current large grp/ raid UI only benefits large well organized grps.
Imo organisation and coordination of more than 20 people should be an achievement in itself and not be mostly taken over by the games UI (which is currently the case).

great thoughts!

Valencer · June 2016

Derra wrote: »

It´s really simple:

- reduce grp size considerably for AvA (6 to 8 players)

- suddenly there won´t be 20 ppl showing up when one of the players lagging behind gets intercepted

- it will be considerably harder to coordinate movement on the fly without having everyone in the same grp ui (i know ppl will claim that´s not going to be an issue - it will be - raids always have 1 or two ppl lagging behind and now the lead won´t notice in ui etc pp - it would tremendously weaken organized ball grps if they had to split into 3 grps instead of having everyone in one)

- it makes building a grp easier because you now only need ~6 ppl to compete and participate instead of 20+ (lowering the number of players needed for participation is the key to making cyrodiil more attractive)

- one grp won´t be enough to participate in every content cyrodiil offers

I really feel the current large grp/ raid UI only benefits large well organized grps.
Imo organisation and coordination of more than 20 people should be an achievement in itself and not be mostly taken over by the games UI (which is currently the case).

How exactly does this benefit PUGs though? PUGs get things done with numbers, and your suggestions directly limit the ability for random (often inexperienced) players to group together to take objectives in cyrodiil.

If I look at the typical big PUG in Cyrodiil and think of these guys getting forced into smaller groups for the sake of it (forced small scale, whatever) the only likely outcome seems to be them getting wrecked over and over and leaving cyrodiil out of frustration. Another 6 man group filled with experienced players using TS will just devour 6 man PUGs... let's be honest.

Thraben · June 2016

zyk wrote: »

Zenimax should give the option that everyone in the group can see which target is a marked player aiming at, similar to the already existing "lock target" option

Please no. So ezmode.

The raid leader should be able to hire a flag carrying npc whose flag shows the guild symbol and is better visible than the often ignored "crown"

Or get the Papacrown addon.

I don't love TS, but I do think it's a requirement for competitive play. I do not think dumbing down battlefield coordination with easy to use tools will change that. TS groups will benefit equally from the proposed changes so the gap between voice comm and text comm groups will remain.

The type of problem your poll paints is one of focus, not tools. Making the game even easier is not the answer.

If you don't like voice comms, I suggest small group play. It is much easier to play off teammates in a smaller group than it is with a massive horde.

Though I can understand your opinion, you have to understand that there are many players out there for whom TS is no option because they have family. And they get excluded from this completely different "AvA"- game or forced to zerg mindlessly just because incencitives and tools for raid leaders are lacking.

Secondly I don´t understand your "EZ- mode"- argument: You obviously know (and use?) addons, and those provide a far greater reduction of difficulty than an in-game communication tool ever could.

Bramir · June 2016

Thraben wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Zenimax should give the option that everyone in the group can see which target is a marked player aiming at, similar to the already existing "lock target" option

Please no. So ezmode.

The raid leader should be able to hire a flag carrying npc whose flag shows the guild symbol and is better visible than the often ignored "crown"

Or get the Papacrown addon.

I don't love TS, but I do think it's a requirement for competitive play. I do not think dumbing down battlefield coordination with easy to use tools will change that. TS groups will benefit equally from the proposed changes so the gap between voice comm and text comm groups will remain.

The type of problem your poll paints is one of focus, not tools. Making the game even easier is not the answer.

If you don't like voice comms, I suggest small group play. It is much easier to play off teammates in a smaller group than it is with a massive horde.

Though I can understand your opinion, you have to understand that there are many players out there for whom TS is no option because they have family. And they get excluded from this completely different "AvA"- game or forced to zerg mindlessly just because incencitives and tools for raid leaders are lacking.

Secondly I don´t understand your "EZ- mode"- argument: You obviously know (and use?) addons, and those provide a far greater reduction of difficulty than an in-game communication tool ever could.

Those TS groups aren't necessarily that good at anything but staying on crown...

A few are quite impressive. The majority are just ego boosters for their raid leaders, and wipe just as often as PUGs. Once the fight starts, the individual skill/gear/builds is what matters, not whether one group allows your raid leader to give personal commentary about how bad he is getting his ass kicked.

That said, a mark target option would be cool, if nothing else to get people to switch from attacking a tank to just about anyone else...

Francescolg · June 2016

I agree that any form of "special tactic", be it a) taking a distant keep, or b) fast-def, should be done by an organized raid!
That is the main error that pug-leaders do.. They try sth. special, instead of just sticking to the hot spots (ales-bleakers-chalman, 1 example). Keep-taking should be done exclusively by organized groups . I left this groups, as soon as they started their very special "gated community"-invite policy.. After 20 years of mmorpgs, I don't understand, why a raid can't offer just a few spots to randoms. We used to do so in DAOC because behind every "LFG" there is a human being, who deserves some respect and support, even by organized guilds (I'm not saying to invite everyone but only every now and then, or do some LFM. You can leave 5 spots free/reserved for your guild).

I disagree that mixed raids can not be lead efficiently.. And I disagree that TS is required for mixed raids to works.

To lead mixed raids or pure random raids, it is necessary to have a wise, smoove, not-flaming and PATIENT leader, who is aware of the opportunistic and the random character of the players.
In other words, a pug-leader MUST:

A) soft-pedal (move with the swarm, neither too fast forward, nor should he wait too long: "Come to the crown, bla blaaa..". Just let it be! Either, the people know how to play or not. if there is a reason, simply kick players or let them time.

Avoid flaming and blackmailing of any type, even if people don't follow orders immediately, or if s.o. went afk

C) Relax and to accept the opportunistic nature of mixed pro/casual raids

A pure random-raid is less well-off, then a mixed raid, made out of a core of experienced players and pugs (5 to 10 spots). A mixed raid does work (!), if the leader is a nice guy, who knows about how to soft-pedal.

As in my case, I don't like to play in 100% pugs but I love mixed raids with no Ts requirements! Let's be honest, a minimap is all you need to be a good follower, if no special tactics will be used.

One last thing, if I sense that a guild does not invite randoms at all, and that one of them does flame or offend ppl in the zone chat..,...., I don't care who it is, I put them on ignore. Being successful and having no manners is unacceptable and just stup_d.

PvP in Cyrondil would be a much nicer place, if all organized raids would offer at least 2-5 pug-spots, as does the WAR-raid on Ep/EU (Trueflame), or TDA on DC/EU, who regularly invite everyone to join their TS. The key to success, imo, is just to mix players and to avoid to have pure pug-raids.

bluedevilblue · June 2016

The cross-faction stuff kills invites to randoms from organized groups for fear of spies, which I think is too bad since that's how I found my guild. If people can't try organized play with guilds, etc., how do they know if they want to join or if it's for them? But having watched people from my own side ride off with one of our scrolls and deliver it to the other side, I get the reluctance to let random people into TS.

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How can we make AvA group play for PUG players without voicechat more attractive?

How can we make AvA group play for PUG players without voicechat more attractive? 40 votes