Game Balance Discussion: The Tank Role and Tanking Experience

Averya_Teira · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

*cough* WoW *cough*

What is this with Wow?
Seems like everyone has to bark this every so often, is it a new thing, or?

? I don't understand your question. Are you asking what is WoW or why are people comparing stuff to WoW ?

To answer both questions: WoW is World of Warcraft and it has been the most popular MMO worldwide since 2004, so a lot of people like the game and how it plays.

I mean, I could've written ''like Rift, DDO, Wildstar, etc'' but WoW is just known better...

Bashev · May 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love it if both Puncture/Pierce Armor and Inner Fire gained a "while slotted" bonus that increases threat generated from all your attacks and abilities by 150%. Ransack Morph would lose the Taunt and threat increase for the rare number of players who actually use it as an actual attack.

This, but make it 300-500% or something because DPS just do so much more damage than tanks, 150% is not going to cut it.

I really like ESO as a whole, but the grouping experience is awful. I understand people that like GW2 style of content will love ESO's grouping mechanics, but I prefer a ''normal'' grouping experience like *cough* WoW *cough* with specific roles that are actually required.

Right now, you don't even need tanks and healers for 99% of content, just run 4 DPS with 1-2 people running Vigor and that's it.

Makes me really sad because I don't see myself playing long term (when a few MMOs and single player games I am waiting for come out) because DPSing is the role I really dislike and it's basically ESO's entire playstyle...

There is no threat table in ESO. You either taunt the target or you dont. If the target is taunted the DPS cannot take the agro.

code65536 · May 2016

LinearParadox wrote: »

Cously wrote: »

A good way to motivate tanks would be boost S&S DPS...

NO. Just... no. Stop making this game DPS: Online. Yes damage is important, but it's not the end-all beat-all it's being made to be.
I have, VR 16 and mostly fully geared....
A Sorc Mag DPS,
A Temp mag healer
A DK tank.
(I also have a VR3 Stam NB that I'm waiting on the vet rank removal for XP)

I can complete more difficult dungeons like WGT and ICP. My magplar has completed vMA without using the sigils. I understand dealing damage, I understand healing, I understand tanking and my builds aren't bad. I'm not crying about tanks because I can't do/don't understand anything else.
Tank are in a BAD SPOT.

No other type of build suffers the same lack of deversity, lack of adaptability, lack of use in many situations, etc.
They have a poor toolkit for their job in terms of sustain and threat generation, and often their already poor threat generation is completely nullified by untauntable bosses.
I'm sick and tired of tanks being thought of as tissue; to be used on the rare occasion you need them then thrown away and either excluded from the group or forced to reskill, respec, regear, reallocate champ points, etc all to adapt to a glaring hole in the game the despite ZoS trying to claim that all content can be completed by all types of groups, that's just not true.

Think of it this way, as many players have said above...
DPS can off-tank quite easily through active mitigation forms like blocking, dodging, shielding.
DPS also often have abilities like Swallow Soul, Vigor, Rally, etc that help them heal themselves and often others as well.
Healers can DPS a little because there's resource pool Scaling and many also take some spell/weapon damage as that scales their heals as well.
Healers can also often 'heal tank' for a limited time, providing they don't get burst down, by just mass healing through damage. It's not optimal by anyears but it can be done.
ALL of this is WITHOUT switching spec or gear.

Now... what do tanks have like that? Yeah. I rest my case.

The problem is that group content is tuned such that a dedicated tank isn't needed.

Yes, there are pieces of group content where you absolutely must have a good tank. Namely trials and vICP, but this is not true for most group content.

But they also can't tune boss damage too high because there is a wide gulf in the capabilities of tanks. I PUGed the vet Fungal pledge last night on my healer, and it was a very rough run in part because the tank was not good at mitigating damage, so I needed to heal him a lot (when I tank vFG, I require almost no support from the healer), and with lackluster DPS in the group, it meant that I was trying to juggle between keeping the tank alive and providing off-DPS to shore up the weak DPS. We got through it in the end, but it was a mess. And in my experience, PUG tanks are more likely to be like the one I encountered last night.

So while we complain that there's no need for tanks in many dungeons, ZOS's hands are kinda tied here: If we do tune those dungeons to require good solid tanks, we'll soon have many people who will simply be unable to complete the content, like the PUG that I was in last night.

It would help, though, if we didn't get dubious changes like the stam regen nerf. I adapted to that nerf without too much difficulty, but for a large portion of the player base who have not yet gotten enough tanking experience, it made tanking more difficult and contributes (in part) to the wide range that we see in tanking capability.

To make tanking relevant again, ZOS needs to do away with things like the stam regen nerf and improving the tanking toolkit. And by rebuffing tanks, they then open up the possibility to tuning up content difficulty such that tanks are no longer optional. Unfortunately, the changes in DB aren't helping: at best, we're about where we were before, except now saddled with extra expenses and hassles to once again adapt.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

*cough* WoW *cough*

What is this with Wow?
Seems like everyone has to bark this every so often, is it a new thing, or?

? I don't understand your question. Are you asking what is WoW or why are people comparing stuff to WoW ?

To answer both questions: WoW is World of Warcraft and it has been the most popular MMO worldwide since 2004, so a lot of people like the game and how it plays.

I mean, I could've written ''like Rift, DDO, Wildstar, etc'' but WoW is just known better...

It's that thing with the Mr. T grenades, right?
Well... some might indeed consider it a game...

But why does everyone keep poppin up with non-ESO games in here?
It's not ESO, leave it away, it frightens me!

Brrrofski · May 2016

Some content still needs tanks. Trials for instance. Imperial City prison does too.

More than healers. Trials you need them. Nothing else at all needs them though.

Guppet · May 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love it if both Puncture/Pierce Armor and Inner Fire gained a "while slotted" bonus that increases threat generated from all your attacks and abilities by 150%. Ransack Morph would lose the Taunt and threat increase for the rare number of players who actually use it as an actual attack.

This, but make it 300-500% or something because DPS just do so much more damage than tanks, 150% is not going to cut it.

I really like ESO as a whole, but the grouping experience is awful. I understand people that like GW2 style of content will love ESO's grouping mechanics, but I prefer a ''normal'' grouping experience like *cough* WoW *cough* with specific roles that are actually required.

Right now, you don't even need tanks and healers for 99% of content, just run 4 DPS with 1-2 people running Vigor and that's it.

Makes me really sad because I don't see myself playing long term (when a few MMOs and single player games I am waiting for come out) because DPSing is the role I really dislike and it's basically ESO's entire playstyle...

There is no threat table in ESO. You either taunt the target or you dont. If the target is taunted the DPS cannot take the agro.

I know there is no standard threat in ESO, but it sure as heck feels like it when there's no tank about and I'm healing. All the mobs make a beeline for me

LinearParadox · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

-snip- The problem is that group content is tuned such that a dedicated tank isn't needed.

Yes, there are pieces of group content where you absolutely must have a good tank. Namely trials and vICP, but this is not true for most group content.

But they also can't tune boss damage too high because there is a wide gulf in the capabilities of tanks. I PUGed the vet Fungal pledge last night on my healer, and it was a very rough run in part because the tank was not good at mitigating damage, so I needed to heal him a lot (when I tank vFG, I require almost no support from the healer), and with lackluster DPS in the group, it meant that I was trying to juggle between keeping the tank alive and providing off-DPS to shore up the weak DPS. We got through it in the end, but it was a mess. And in my experience, PUG tanks are more likely to be like the one I encountered last night.

So while we complain that there's no need for tanks in many dungeons, ZOS's hands are kinda tied here: If we do tune those dungeons to require good solid tanks, we'll soon have many people who will simply be unable to complete the content, like the PUG that I was in last night.

It would help, though, if we didn't get dubious changes like the stam regen nerf. I adapted to that nerf without too much difficulty, but for a large portion of the player base who have not yet gotten enough tanking experience, it made tanking more difficult and contributes (in part) to the wide range that we see in tanking capability.

To make tanking relevant again, ZOS needs to do away with things like the stam regen nerf and improving the tanking toolkit. And by rebuffing tanks, they then open up the possibility to tuning up content difficulty such that tanks are no longer optional. Unfortunately, the changes in DB aren't helping: at best, we're about where we were before, except now saddled with extra expenses and hassles to once again adapt.

While I agree with this partially, I think you might not be taking into account the eventuality of those changes. By making Tanks relevant, and even needed again, you may see a more definitive shift toward not only role identity, but CHARACTER identity and build. It is my personal opinion that many of those sub-par tanks are a direct result of the need for 'flexible' builds AKA swapping when tanks aren't needed which leads to, as someone mentioned previously a sub-par DPS AND and sup-par tank! It's this ambiguity that leads people to stat-split, neglect their 'other' gear set from upgrading because hey, they "only use it once or twice", people who don't want to(and shouldn't have to) pay the respec cost in champion points for one or two bosses on rare occasion.
Make tanks RELEVANT and ENJOYABLE to play, and people will build ACTUAL tank characters the same way people certainly build ACTUAL DPS characters >_>

Anyone that's gotten 1-shotted/killed in under a second in Cyrodiil, or watched a Boss's health bar melt before they can even cycle through their first 'gimmick' knows nobody has any trouble creating the character identity of DPS. Why then, should it be so Godd**n difficult to create a TANK identity??? Why should the people who manage to succeed despite the difficulties therein by rewarded with being marginalized in a MAJORITY of content??? I don't see DPS being marginalized, and Healers are rarely brushed off unless you have an extremely well geared and coordinated 4DPS group as someone mentioned previously.
Tanks need some love. Seriously.

To that end, I politely suggest that further posts try to focus more on creating viable solutions to the problem, rather than being drawn into debating the existence of the problem with people who seem to not understand the points we're trying to make. No offense. I just want to see some progress here. Lets keep it happy, healthy, and proactive. Maybe we can get some good ideas rolling and a /lurk by a Cmod or something. They ARE listening, maybe not to everything all the time as fast as players want it(Myself included, honestly) But I've seen some powerful changes being made on the PTS patches that're directly related to player feedback, and that's encouraging.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Guppet wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love it if both Puncture/Pierce Armor and Inner Fire gained a "while slotted" bonus that increases threat generated from all your attacks and abilities by 150%. Ransack Morph would lose the Taunt and threat increase for the rare number of players who actually use it as an actual attack.

This, but make it 300-500% or something because DPS just do so much more damage than tanks, 150% is not going to cut it.

I really like ESO as a whole, but the grouping experience is awful. I understand people that like GW2 style of content will love ESO's grouping mechanics, but I prefer a ''normal'' grouping experience like *cough* WoW *cough* with specific roles that are actually required.

Right now, you don't even need tanks and healers for 99% of content, just run 4 DPS with 1-2 people running Vigor and that's it.

Makes me really sad because I don't see myself playing long term (when a few MMOs and single player games I am waiting for come out) because DPSing is the role I really dislike and it's basically ESO's entire playstyle...

There is no threat table in ESO. You either taunt the target or you dont. If the target is taunted the DPS cannot take the agro.

I know there is no standard threat in ESO, but it sure as heck feels like it when there's no tank about and I'm healing. All the mobs make a beeline for me

And they should, but this is where the tank come i... AW...

idk · May 2016

The issue from the first few sentences in the OP has more to do with poor design of the dungeons and that they scale them poorly to higher vet ranks and nerf them.

Essential Zos is being lazy and has a vision problem which has been evident from before the game launched. As soon as they seem to be thinking clearly (having normal and get versions of new content to appeal to hard core and more modest players, they start nerfing most of few challenges that remain in the game.

code65536 · May 2016

LinearParadox wrote: »

It is my personal opinion that many of those sub-par tanks are a direct result of the need for 'flexible' builds AKA swapping when tanks aren't needed which leads to, as someone mentioned previously a sub-par DPS AND and sup-par tank!

I disagree.

In my personal experience, the best tanks that I've met are all multi-build. Whether it's having multiple tanking gear sets for different kinds of tanking scenarios (how you balance survivability and group support can change from fight to fight) or having a DD build that they can swap into. Stats and gear are only a small part of the picture--good tanking is really about understanding the game from different angles and knowing how best to support the group.

In contrast, the bad tanks that I've met tend to be single-build. They either just taunt and hold and lack the perspective needed to know how to support the group or they are using a build copied from somewhere without understanding how to play the role of tank.

I absolutely agree with Woeler's comment earlier that good tanks are flexible. Because it means they have a better understanding of what the DD and healers need. Because it means that they actually understand their build(s) well and are more adaptable to what the situation calls for.

I tanked vFG twice yesterday. Once on my lowbie VR2 nightblade with pitiful resistance (somewhere between 15 and 20K resistance after battle leveling; I gave him some tank gear that he can swap into because I want to level his Undaunted before DB and Group Finder pops so much quicker if I'm marked as DD/Tank instead of just DD) and once on my VR16 DK that I use for trials tanking. They're two very, very different tank builds and require different playstyles. And both had pretty smooth runs. I also healed a third run of vFG with a PUG tank that was very rough in comparison.

My VR2 lowbie DD with heavy armor and shield in his bag was placed by Group Finder in a group with other lowbie VRs where two of the members had never even set foot in vFG before on any character. Despite all that, the run went smoother than the run where my healer was grouped with a PUG DK tank who didn't know how to survive damage (he had heavy armor and decent health, but he didn't know when to block, when not to block, when to self-heal, and how to keep his resources up effectively) and who provided zero support for the group--he did nothing beyond taunt and hold. In contrast, my VR2 nightblade, despite his low resistances, required almost no healer support and did his best (given the nightblades' limited toolkit) to position and do other things to make things easier for the rest of the group.

The moral of the story is that good tanking is more about experience and knowing how to tank than it is about having a fancy build with optimal resistances. And you don't really learn how to tank until you've played as healer and as DD so that you know what kinds of support will help the DD and what healers can be realistically be expected to provide. Having someone shoehorned into a single build/gearset just limits their perspective and limits the breadth of their experience. Flexibility is good for tanking--and for any other role. A good tank is one that is able to make the most out of what he has in a way that makes sense for the fight that he's in.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

The problem with that is now that you are both a lesser Tank than others AND a lesser DPS. In that case, assuming every player wishes to optimize, why would you have either role. You won't be as tanky as a full tank, and you'll NEVER be able to deal as much damage as a pure DPS.

Agree. What are we saying ?
You can be a tank/dd hibreed that's useless at both... but not a tank.
No place for you tank. DD are welcome though.

Guppet · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

It is my personal opinion that many of those sub-par tanks are a direct result of the need for 'flexible' builds AKA swapping when tanks aren't needed which leads to, as someone mentioned previously a sub-par DPS AND and sup-par tank!

I disagree.

In my personal experience, the best tanks that I've met are all multi-build. Whether it's having multiple tanking gear sets for different kinds of tanking scenarios (how you balance survivability and group support can change from fight to fight) or having a DD build that they can swap into. Stats and gear are only a small part of the picture--good tanking is really about understanding the game from different angles and knowing how best to support the group.

In contrast, the bad tanks that I've met tend to be single-build. They either just taunt and hold and lack the perspective needed to know how to support the group or they are using a build copied from somewhere without understanding how to play the role of tank.

I absolutely agree with Woeler's comment earlier that good tanks are flexible. Because it means they have a better understanding of what the DD and healers need. Because it means that they actually understand their build(s) well and are more adaptable to what the situation calls for.

I tanked vFG twice yesterday. Once on my lowbie VR2 nightblade with pitiful resistance (somewhere between 15 and 20K resistance after battle leveling; I gave him some tank gear that he can swap into because I want to level his Undaunted before DB and Group Finder pops so much quicker if I'm marked as DD/Tank instead of just DD) and once on my VR16 DK that I use for trials tanking. They're two very, very different tank builds and require different playstyles. And both had pretty smooth runs. I also healed a third run of vFG with a PUG tank that was very rough in comparison.

My VR2 lowbie DD with heavy armor and shield in his bag was placed by Group Finder in a group with other lowbie VRs where two of the members had never even set foot in vFG before on any character. Despite all that, the run went smoother than the run where my healer was grouped with a PUG DK tank who didn't know how to survive damage (he had heavy armor and decent health, but he didn't know when to block, when not to block, when to self-heal, and how to keep his resources up effectively) and who provided zero support for the group--he did nothing beyond taunt and hold. In contrast, my VR2 nightblade, despite his low resistances, required almost no healer support and did his best (given the nightblades' limited toolkit) to position and do other things to make things easier for the rest of the group.

The moral of the story is that good tanking is more about experience and knowing how to tank than it is about having a fancy build with optimal resistances. And you don't really learn how to tank until you've played as healer and as DD so that you know what kinds of support will help the DD and what healers can be realistically be expected to provide. Having someone shoehorned into a single build/gearset just limits their perspective and limits the breadth of their experience. Flexibility is good for tanking--and for any other role. A good tank is one that is able to make the most out of what he has in a way that makes sense for the fight that he's in.

Read what you just wrote and think what a new player reading it would think. Would they then role a tank? No they would run a mile.

So now in this game tanks not only need to have the most stressful role, they need to be experienced at the other two roles, need to be flexible, not just hold aggro and mitigate damage. Now compare that to DPS? What are they going to choose.

This is the whole problem, it's so much responsibility to tank. Multiple sets of gear needed, your expected to know all mechanics inside out. what do the dps need to learn? To do dps which normally can't be checked, heck it's rare where I even see a dps look to res someone who stood in stupid. They just get to hit stuff and try not to stand in stupid.

Is there any wonder there are less tanks and healers?

Rune_Relic · May 2016

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

From my perspective its not about killing the enemies in the quickest time ...DD.
Its about taking on enemies and still being the last one standing...no matter how long it takes.
In fact...the longer the better as it feels much more rewarding when you finally overcome.
Its a completely different mentality.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Well see: the faster your enemy falls apart, the less damage you get.
Very sound tactic, IMHO, but VERY bad for tanks in this game.

One simple solution would be to simply remove tanks from game, period.
Or, well, what I said afore: make DPS so weak and puny in life points/defense, they will NEED a healer.

IMHO there's no alternative to these 2 suggestions.

Let me rephrase this: no alternative that is going to be easy to implement.

Guppet · May 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

From my perspective its not about killing the enemies in the quickest time ...DD.
Its about taking on enemies and still being the last one standing...no matter how long it takes.
In fact...the longer the better as it feels much more rewarding when you finally overcome.
Its a completely different mentality.

Yep tanks are also able to do some of the more extreme solo things (just not VMSA). I have been messing with a heavy armor s&s Templar spell tank. I can take on packs of mobs in imp city that no DPS could survive. Also trying out drain tanking on my NB, for similar reasons.

Being tanky as fook can be fun solo.

Fun, what an odd concept heh.

code65536 · May 2016

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

It is my personal opinion that many of those sub-par tanks are a direct result of the need for 'flexible' builds AKA swapping when tanks aren't needed which leads to, as someone mentioned previously a sub-par DPS AND and sup-par tank!

I disagree.

In my personal experience, the best tanks that I've met are all multi-build. Whether it's having multiple tanking gear sets for different kinds of tanking scenarios (how you balance survivability and group support can change from fight to fight) or having a DD build that they can swap into. Stats and gear are only a small part of the picture--good tanking is really about understanding the game from different angles and knowing how best to support the group.

In contrast, the bad tanks that I've met tend to be single-build. They either just taunt and hold and lack the perspective needed to know how to support the group or they are using a build copied from somewhere without understanding how to play the role of tank.

I absolutely agree with Woeler's comment earlier that good tanks are flexible. Because it means they have a better understanding of what the DD and healers need. Because it means that they actually understand their build(s) well and are more adaptable to what the situation calls for.

I tanked vFG twice yesterday. Once on my lowbie VR2 nightblade with pitiful resistance (somewhere between 15 and 20K resistance after battle leveling; I gave him some tank gear that he can swap into because I want to level his Undaunted before DB and Group Finder pops so much quicker if I'm marked as DD/Tank instead of just DD) and once on my VR16 DK that I use for trials tanking. They're two very, very different tank builds and require different playstyles. And both had pretty smooth runs. I also healed a third run of vFG with a PUG tank that was very rough in comparison.

My VR2 lowbie DD with heavy armor and shield in his bag was placed by Group Finder in a group with other lowbie VRs where two of the members had never even set foot in vFG before on any character. Despite all that, the run went smoother than the run where my healer was grouped with a PUG DK tank who didn't know how to survive damage (he had heavy armor and decent health, but he didn't know when to block, when not to block, when to self-heal, and how to keep his resources up effectively) and who provided zero support for the group--he did nothing beyond taunt and hold. In contrast, my VR2 nightblade, despite his low resistances, required almost no healer support and did his best (given the nightblades' limited toolkit) to position and do other things to make things easier for the rest of the group.

The moral of the story is that good tanking is more about experience and knowing how to tank than it is about having a fancy build with optimal resistances. And you don't really learn how to tank until you've played as healer and as DD so that you know what kinds of support will help the DD and what healers can be realistically be expected to provide. Having someone shoehorned into a single build/gearset just limits their perspective and limits the breadth of their experience. Flexibility is good for tanking--and for any other role. A good tank is one that is able to make the most out of what he has in a way that makes sense for the fight that he's in.

Read what you just wrote and think what a new player reading it would think. Would they then role a tank? No they would run a mile.

So now in this game tanks not only need to have the most stressful role, they need to be experienced at the other two roles, need to be flexible, not just hold aggro and mitigate damage. Now compare that to DPS? What are they going to choose.

This is the whole problem, it's so much responsibility to tank. Multiple sets of gear needed, your expected to know all mechanics inside out. what do the dps need to learn? To do dps which normally can't be checked, heck it's rare where I even see a dps look to res someone who stood in stupid. They just get to hit stuff and try not to stand in stupid.

Is there any wonder there are less tanks and healers?

I actually find tanking less stressful than being a DD.

You can have good tanks, mediocre tanks, and bad tanks. I'm just laying out what it takes to be a good tank and arguing that it requires a more open mindset.

Similarly, you can have good DDs, mediocre DDs, and bad DDs. And being a good DD takes a lot of skill. In many ways, even more skill than being a good tank.

It's easy to be a bad tank who just taunts, barely stays alive, and does zero support. Just as it's easy to be a bad DD who stands in stupid and spams one single ability.

But to be a good DD--the kind that can pull 30K single-target--you need good, consistent weaves. You need a good rotation of skills. And do all that while respecting the mechanics, not standing in red, etc. Executing all of that requires a degree of finger dexterity that is out of even my reach (I still mess up on my weaves sometimes despite many months of practice, and I light-weave instead of medium-weave because I can't do the latter as reliably as I do the former). As one of my friends said, DDs are dime-a-dozen. But good DDs are rare.

The real issue is that the lack of group DPS meters makes it possible for bad DDs to stick their head in the sand and ignore the problem, and while it's possible to spot bad DDs even without damage numbers, since a tank's performance is not measured by hidden numbers, a bad tank will always be easier to spot than a bad DD.

Averya_Teira · May 2016

Guppet wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

From my perspective its not about killing the enemies in the quickest time ...DD.
Its about taking on enemies and still being the last one standing...no matter how long it takes.
In fact...the longer the better as it feels much more rewarding when you finally overcome.
Its a completely different mentality.

Yep tanks are also able to do some of the more extreme solo things (just not VMSA). I have been messing with a heavy armor s&s Templar spell tank. I can take on packs of mobs in imp city that no DPS could survive. Also trying out drain tanking on my NB, for similar reasons.

Being tanky as fook can be fun solo.

Fun, what an odd concept heh.

Doing vMSA on a tank char is way harder than on a decently build DPS char. For most, it's not even possible as there are DPS checks inside vMSA that you can't easily reach with a straight tank build.

Just sayin'...

Guppet · May 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

From my perspective its not about killing the enemies in the quickest time ...DD.
Its about taking on enemies and still being the last one standing...no matter how long it takes.
In fact...the longer the better as it feels much more rewarding when you finally overcome.
Its a completely different mentality.

Yep tanks are also able to do some of the more extreme solo things (just not VMSA). I have been messing with a heavy armor s&s Templar spell tank. I can take on packs of mobs in imp city that no DPS could survive. Also trying out drain tanking on my NB, for similar reasons.

Being tanky as fook can be fun solo.

Fun, what an odd concept heh.

Doing vMSA on a tank char is way harder than on a decently build DPS char. For most, it's not even possible as there are DPS checks inside vMSA that you can't easily reach with a straight tank build.

Just sayin'...

I did say they couldn't do that. You may have misread.

Averya_Teira · May 2016

Guppet wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

From my perspective its not about killing the enemies in the quickest time ...DD.
Its about taking on enemies and still being the last one standing...no matter how long it takes.
In fact...the longer the better as it feels much more rewarding when you finally overcome.
Its a completely different mentality.

Yep tanks are also able to do some of the more extreme solo things (just not VMSA). I have been messing with a heavy armor s&s Templar spell tank. I can take on packs of mobs in imp city that no DPS could survive. Also trying out drain tanking on my NB, for similar reasons.

Being tanky as fook can be fun solo.

Fun, what an odd concept heh.

Doing vMSA on a tank char is way harder than on a decently build DPS char. For most, it's not even possible as there are DPS checks inside vMSA that you can't easily reach with a straight tank build.

Just sayin'...

I did say they couldn't do that. You may have misread.

AH lol... yeah I did misread.... My bad -_-

But with the DB heavy armor changes, tanks might be able to push through the DPS checks ? Maybe ?

Miszou · May 2016

Majic wrote: »

Introduce a boss that absorbs all incoming damage, healing it, and only takes damage by dealing damage.

Now tanks and healers are your de facto DPSers, and regular DPSers get to know what it feels like to be a tank whose taunts don't work.

Problem solved.

I suggested a boss (or mob) that simply returns all incoming damage to the attacker, but your idea is very similar.

DPS would wreck themselves in seconds, while the tank would just patiently work away at it. Slow and steady wins the race.

Guppet · May 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

Introduce a boss that absorbs all incoming damage, healing it, and only takes damage by dealing damage.

Now tanks and healers are your de facto DPSers, and regular DPSers get to know what it feels like to be a tank whose taunts don't work.

Problem solved.

I suggested a boss (or mob) that simply returns all incoming damage to the attacker, but your idea is very similar.

DPS would wreck themselves in seconds, while the tank would just patiently work away at it. Slow and steady wins the race.

Wouldn't want to be the healer in that situation. "My DPS is leet 30k, healer why you no keep me alive?" Lol.

kylewwefan · May 2016

Ive heard the statement "You can't just Heal your way through a dungeon"; gotta be something similar for tanks.

I have seen people state and act that they don't need a tank.......right. Hang around the undaunted areas in area chat see what everyone is looking for.

It would be nice if on console there was a gear/ability load out and CP save settings you could swap out quickly to have a true hybrid DPS/TANK/Healer.

Krozen · May 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

Introduce a boss that absorbs all incoming damage, healing it, and only takes damage by dealing damage.

Now tanks and healers are your de facto DPSers, and regular DPSers get to know what it feels like to be a tank whose taunts don't work.

Problem solved.

I suggested a boss (or mob) that simply returns all incoming damage to the attacker, but your idea is very similar.

DPS would wreck themselves in seconds, while the tank would just patiently work away at it. Slow and steady wins the race.

On my opening Posts I suggested Challenge Gated Skill Lines. This would be a great way to gate the Tank tree of skills.

Krozen · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

I actually find tanking less stressful than being a DD. -continued-

I too find Tanking less stressful than being DPS, but that is only because I am experienced at the role. Regardless of experience however, the Role of Tank still has no viability on it's own. Just as Guppet said, the current ideal is that a Tank can switch roles on a whim. That is not the case with DPS and Healers. No one EXPECTS a DPS to become a Healer in dungeon. Yet Tanks are expected to be able to swap on command to another Spec? Just as I stated before, they then become a sub-par Tank and sub-par DPS. The problem comes from the fact that to be a "good Tank" in ESO that, as you stated yourself, they MUST have an alternate role. A DPS is fine to stay a DPS, A Healer can Stay a Healer (and even if not, they still specialize into many of the same stats as a DPS), but Tanks cannot be just a good Tank. They have to be an okay Tank and an okay DPS/Healer. I have a Tank that can solo up to the first Boss in Maw of Lorkaj and solo the first Boss or two in many Vet dungeons (given time, of course ), yet I get dropped often for the 3rd DPS in group because my off-DPS doesn't do enough. THERE is the problem. And even as a Tank, I cannot blame the players. It's simply better to ditch the Tank. The goal of this thread is to address the very fact you continue to point out. A Tank needs to ALSO be another role. Tanking should have their own Role Identity. From your explanation, a Tank is not a good Tank unless they have another role. No one would ever say that of a DPS.

NBrookus · May 2016

@code65536 I think you are looking at this too much from the point of view of someone who has played the game for a long time and has a lot of resources. It's great that your VR1 toons have multiple armor sets, but for someone playing through the first time, ONE blue armor set might be the limit of their resources. It was for me. (Dwarven oil seemed SO expensive!) One set had to do everything I needed to do on that character.

I am in 100% agreement about what it takes to be a good tank, but you are essentially outlining a scenario where a new chum leveling a tank not only takes longer to get there, but in some cases gets less loot and they have higher expenses just to play their chosen role. It's not encouraging to new players at all.

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · May 2016

I see that many people dont get it.As soon as a " tank needs improvment" thread appears ppl start talking about skills lines.The real problem with tanks its not completly skill lines.Its the current mechanics and meta what is hurting the tank roll.

Things like to much dps stacking are one of them.Bosses go down so fast that in a fight you dont see all their mechanics.That DPS stacking paired with high survivability for DPS roles makes tanks obsolete.

Some bosses mechanics needs to be revised so a tank must be needed for the group to survive the encounter.Like for example,since DPS is out of control, making bosses fight too short,a good example would be to increase bosses health or for bosses to have some skills that hit so hard that only a tank can survive it.

That and many other examples is what is needed.Not keep changing tank skills,most of them work pretty well.Is some core mechanics on bosses that need change or a way to limit that crazy dps that ppl can stack.

If we keep telling devs that what tanks need so they can be useful is changing skills what we get is chnages like in the upcoming DB DLC that do nothing to address the real issue of tanks are not needed.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I actually find tanking less stressful than being a DD. -continued-

I too find Tanking less stressful than being DPS, but that is only because I am experienced at the role. Regardless of experience however, the Role of Tank still has no viability on it's own. Just as Guppet said, the current ideal is that a Tank can switch roles on a whim. That is not the case with DPS and Healers. No one EXPECTS a DPS to become a Healer in dungeon. Yet Tanks are expected to be able to swap on command to another Spec? Just as I stated before, they then become a sub-par Tank and sub-par DPS. The problem comes from the fact that to be a "good Tank" in ESO that, as you stated yourself, they MUST have an alternate role. A DPS is fine to stay a DPS, A Healer can Stay a Healer (and even if not, they still specialize into many of the same stats as a DPS), but Tanks cannot be just a good Tank. They have to be an okay Tank and an okay DPS/Healer. I have a Tank that can solo up to the first Boss in Maw of Lorkaj and solo the first Boss or two in many Vet dungeons (given time, of course ), yet I get dropped often for the 3rd DPS in group because my off-DPS doesn't do enough. THERE is the problem. And even as a Tank, I cannot blame the players. It's simply better to ditch the Tank. The goal of this thread is to address the very fact you continue to point out. A Tank needs to ALSO be another role. Tanking should have their own Role Identity. From your explanation, a Tank is not a good Tank unless they have another role. No one would ever say that of a DPS.

Cute, but totally illogical.
Let me tell you why: a DPS must do damage. PERIOD.
Healers must heal. PERIOD.
Tanks must, indeed, play punchball. PERIOD.
In comes the fourth class: the Templar, who should be a support.

Last class has been quite an oversight, but let's not touch this right now.

If you have a Tank that tries to heal, or do DPS, he should become an automatic fail.
Why?
Because HE IS NOT EITHER A DD OR A HEALER.

And such should be for the other classes as well.

Hybrids should be far weaker/useable than there complete class versions.

But hey, just thinking out loud.

If you like a "smart but weak barbarian", sure, but do not ask this to be a competitive thing compared to a Strength based Barb wielding his axe.
One does not put a cannon on a Lamborghini for a reason.

code65536 · May 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

@code65536 I think you are looking at this too much from the point of view of someone who has played the game for a long time and has a lot of resources. It's great that your VR1 toons have multiple armor sets, but for someone playing through the first time, ONE blue armor set might be the limit of their resources. It was for me. (Dwarven oil seemed SO expensive!) One set had to do everything I needed to do on that character.

I am in 100% agreement about what it takes to be a good tank, but you are essentially outlining a scenario where a new chum leveling a tank not only takes longer to get there, but in some cases gets less loot and they have higher expenses just to play their chosen role. It's not encouraging to new players at all.

You have to remember the context of this conversation. My post was a rebuttal against someone who claims that doing multiple roles makes for a worse tank. It does not--in my experience, it makes you a better, more versatile tank.

I would not expect a VR1 who's starting out tanking to perform like a seasoned end-game tank and walk around with multiple gear sets. Just as I would not expect a fresh VR1 DD to pull 20K single-target in a battle-leveled dungeon.

What I laid out was more of an ideal, not a "beginner's guide to tanking". But mostly, it was a response to the posts in this thread saying that gear-swap tanks are somehow worse or deficient.

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · May 2016

Krozen wrote: »

Non-Skill Based Changes
Taunt Affects Everything:One of my biggest complaints in PvE is that there are some bosses that can simply ignore Taunt effects. I'm not talking about the ones that throw one swing at another party member then focus the Tank again. I'm talking about the ones who are either completely immune to the Taunt debuff. As a Tank's biggest job is to take the damage of the enemies for their allies, Bosses that completely ignore taunts make Tanks effectively useless. This is made worse by the fact that the Tank typically has the lowest DPS in a group, or the fact that Taunt has no effect on PvP. I propose that two things change to help this. 1. No PvE enemies should be immune to taunt. Plain and simple. If the ability has taunt, any PvE target must focus on you for the duration. 2.Give Taunt an effect in PvP. With taunt skills, their biggest selling point is the Taunt debuff, forcing an opponent to focus the one with the most Health. While not exactly possible to do in PvP, I suggest that it be given some effect. Maybe it could reduce damage the Taunted target deals to everyone except the one who Taunted them. Or, Maybe a Taunted target takes increased damage from the one who Taunted them.

Dungeon/Trial Changes: I understand that changing an entire dungeon is a difficult task, so this is more of a suggestion to "keep in mind for the future". There needs to be more need for Tanks. There are quite a few dungeons, particularly with the Veteran Gold Pledges, where it is better for a group to have no Tank. By adding multiple large monsters that make up an entire boss, or mechanics that favor or require Tanks would give them new life. Another thing is to stay away from strictly "anti-Tank" mechanics, such as in Maw of Lorkaj where one of the bosses completely nullifies defense values. Tanks are already barely viable, they do not need to be shoved down even further.

Damage Taken Prizes/Drops:In World Boss fights and various large group events, the players who can loot the body are based off of the top Damage Dealt and Healing Done. As great as that is for making sure someone doesn't get loot they don't deserve, it COMPLETELY cuts Tanks out of the Loot Tables. A Tank who may have started a World Boss and kept it taunted will most likely still fall blow the threshold to get the Loot drop. To fix this, I propose that players who take the most damage in a fight be rewarded as well. It could be done so that damage for this reward only counts if the Boss is taunted or make it that the ones who already have gotten Damage Dealt and Healing Done prizes are excluded from the Damage Taken Prize. Either way, Tanks have a literally thankless existence when it comes to drops right now.

agree

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · May 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

well basically DPS roles barely or never need to switch to tank or healer role right?Thats because they are the role the current meta favors.And thats where the issue is.The current meta neglect healer and specially the tank role.And thats why most tank need a dps build too which i think is a error in a trinity desing.