Game Balance Discussion: The Tank Role and Tanking Experience

Ep1kMalware

Guppet wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

See, this confuses me. All I need to do to not need a healer is slot vigor, stay out of red circles, and dodge roll ocasionally. I don't see any reason why you can't spam breath of life if you'd like. The problem is that's what you're reduced to. There's more than one way to keep people alive, and with pugs I agree, with bad overall dps you need to babysit them with healing spells. There's also crowd control, shields, damage buffs, resource buffs, any many other options.

I guess that's why I like being a DD. I have the most control over how far, and how easily my group will move through a given dungeon.

Ah now that's where we come together.

Just like I have no idea how a non healer group works, you have no idea how a group with all terrible dps works.

It's also been my experience that with decent dps, I can do more than heal.

You'll always have at least semi decent dps, due to your participation. You have less opportunity for terrible dps

I suppose, it's neat we can offer each other insight into different roles. As a dps with sustain I can do dark shade with 3 heavy armor resto staff guys that spend the whole time dead, solo every boss, and get a decent completion time. I cannot imagine what trying to do that as a healer with bad team dps would be like. That's literally the sole reason I've only made dps builds. I read a lot of threads about healers getting abused by teammates, that's another turn off for me. I'll take anyone/anything except abusive players

code65536

NBrookus wrote: »

Kozai wrote: »

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank.

Unless it's been "fixed," Engine Guardian can be tanked by a magicka DK to hold him in place for a faster burn. It's been a while since I've tanked DSC and they've changed the relevant skill since.




(And yes I am being vague because it's like discovering an Easter egg.)

You mean chain-spamming during the green phase to get the boss "stuck" to prolong the duration of the green phase? That no longer works after the changes to chains last patch. It was definitely a very fun (and funny) strategy to use. I also used to remain as tank and just range-taunt the adds when they spawn. But I find it easier these days to just be a DD for that fight--it's easier if the adds just die.

And someone else mentioned Grobull. I've run with a tank who likes to taunt Grobull and pull him away from the group so that we can kill the netchlings without Grobull nearby. While it works, it just isn't a very optimal strategy. The only dangerous thing about Grobull is that red AoE that he spawns, but there's usually plenty of time to roll or walk out of it. The only time the AoE kills is if you're slow to react, or if Grobull does his stun and you're out of stam to break (shouldn't be an issue if you've got a healer regularly casting Repentance). In contrast, if the tank switches to DPS, you get more AoE DPS to help kill the adds (which are more dangerous than the boss), and Grobull does take damage from AoEs, so if he's kept near the action, he'll lose a bit of health even while his shield is up. Pulling Grobull away is useful only in a group where people are still getting used to the mechanics and are frequently dying to that red circle.

Cherryblossom

Woeler wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

I think the point of the Thread is to give a reason for having a Tank!

Whilst it's important that your build suits the content you are doing, the content and skills should also support tanky builds.

Currently as mentioned the majority of the time you don't need a tank, you can just fly through content with DPS who can off heal themselves. Should the content really be this easy.

The idea of having the trinity of Tank, healer and DPS is to add complexity and encourage teamwork, or at least have someone to blame when the crap hits the fan . (I didn't play WoW before any stupid comments)

Tanking Mobs in this game is pointless, the easiest way to gather them up is Caltrops! Really the best tanking device for Mob control is Caltrops, how can this be a good thing.
Tanks require a Tanking AOE ie - "Challenging Call" all mobs in 10m radius will turn to face the user for 10 seconds. - "Challenging Call" gives 2 second 50% damage Reduction.
They could add extra skills to Heavy Armour, lets make it mean something, make it necessary.

I hate the fact that a DPS can just jump in before a tank and still be standing, stupidity should be punished otherwise no-one will learn any skill.

GreenhaloX

The funny thing is.. for enemy with heavy armors, I can tell the difference. Still easy to kill, but they takes a bit lesser damages than non-heavy armor ones. Strange that a player with heavy armors can't absorb same. Darn it, with heavier armor, you're suppose to be able to absorb more damages, but not in this game.

Wifeaggro13

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

One thing I don't see mentioned much as part of the problem with tanking is the simple fact that Health, as a stat, sucks. Health needs to be changed so that it matters as much as Magicka or Stamina. Health is supposed to be the 'tank stat,' but it's utility is much less than the other two; stacking Health gets you nothing and actually takes away from your damage and capacity to manage resources for abilities/blocking/etc. In terms of content and fight mechanics (which is also part of the problem with tanking), you really only need 23-27k health to tank any content in the game; any more than that is a liability.

Solutions:

• Make something scale with Health. My favorite idea so far is for Health to give you a reduction in all abilities and action costs (including block, break free, dodgeroll, etc). I don't know what the numbers should be, but it should be comparable to the increase in damage that maxing out mag/stam can bring, as well as help make up somewhat for having smaller resource pools. Similar to how Magicka/Stamina increase your damage, there needs to be a reason to invest in the Health stat beyond being a meat shield with no sustain.
• Simply remove damage scaling from Magicka/Stamina.

That is a large part of the problem. The other half is the mechanics of most fights don't support any type of aggro management, Abilities that are damage intervention for the group, CC in any way shape or form is useless, At launch Spamming Volcanic rune was at least a partial CC ability to deal with trash. Now its just AOE the crap . And finally there is Zero fore thought into encounters, you pull one mob you pull it all . Pulling was an art in previous generations of MMO's player knowledge and skill is completely removed in this game its how well you can manage a rotation weave and avoid red puddles.

Wifeaggro13

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

I think the point of the Thread is to give a reason for having a Tank!

Whilst it's important that your build suits the content you are doing, the content and skills should also support tanky builds.

Currently as mentioned the majority of the time you don't need a tank, you can just fly through content with DPS who can off heal themselves. Should the content really be this easy.

The idea of having the trinity of Tank, healer and DPS is to add complexity and encourage teamwork, or at least have someone to blame when the crap hits the fan . (I didn't play WoW before any stupid comments)

Tanking Mobs in this game is pointless, the easiest way to gather them up is Caltrops! Really the best tanking device for Mob control is Caltrops, how can this be a good thing.
Tanks require a Tanking AOE ie - "Challenging Call" all mobs in 10m radius will turn to face the user for 10 seconds. - "Challenging Call" gives 2 second 50% damage Reduction.
They could add extra skills to Heavy Armour, lets make it mean something, make it necessary.

I hate the fact that a DPS can just jump in before a tank and still be standing, stupidity should be punished otherwise no-one will learn any skill.

The trinity is actually a dilution of the true MMO. They have removed 3 other roles . roles that were a blast to Play. True CC like the enchanter, true Off heals that warded group damage. True skill buffing and Off Dps like a bard, And Off heal Debuff. The New MMO combat is watered down for ease of development and faster content creation.True Hybrid classes were needed and valued , CC was an actual role not a after thought of a prime ability.

NBrookus

code65536 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Kozai wrote: »

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank.

Unless it's been "fixed," Engine Guardian can be tanked by a magicka DK to hold him in place for a faster burn. It's been a while since I've tanked DSC and they've changed the relevant skill since.




(And yes I am being vague because it's like discovering an Easter egg.)

You mean chain-spamming during the green phase to get the boss "stuck" to prolong the duration of the green phase? That no longer works after the changes to chains last patch. It was definitely a very fun (and funny) strategy to use. I also used to remain as tank and just range-taunt the adds when they spawn. But I find it easier these days to just be a DD for that fight--it's easier if the adds just die.

Well, shoot. I was afraid it would get fixed when they worked on chains.

I guess it's like tanking the pinion in vWGT -- you have to have enough DPS for it to be a viable strategy and make the boss go down faster, but at some point when you have even more DPS it no longer makes much sense to do it that way.

Ep1kMalware

NBrookus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Kozai wrote: »

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank.

Unless it's been "fixed," Engine Guardian can be tanked by a magicka DK to hold him in place for a faster burn. It's been a while since I've tanked DSC and they've changed the relevant skill since.




(And yes I am being vague because it's like discovering an Easter egg.)

You mean chain-spamming during the green phase to get the boss "stuck" to prolong the duration of the green phase? That no longer works after the changes to chains last patch. It was definitely a very fun (and funny) strategy to use. I also used to remain as tank and just range-taunt the adds when they spawn. But I find it easier these days to just be a DD for that fight--it's easier if the adds just die.

Well, shoot. I was afraid it would get fixed when they worked on chains.

I guess it's like tanking the pinion in vWGT -- you have to have enough DPS for it to be a viable strategy and make the boss go down faster, but at some point when you have even more DPS it no longer makes much sense to do it that way.

You could always group up the adds and cc them. You'd be suprised how much this helps.

Resipsa131

Woeler wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

Too bad the inverse of this isn't true.

Ep1kMalware

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

Too bad the inverse of this isn't true.

I'm not sure I agree. I'd rather have a tank that was very good at using their group buffs/crowd control than a mediocre one that tried to dps on the side. I've done wgt 3 dps/ tank and we just use precise pinion planning and vigor the tank. The last few times we've done it, we never even said a word to eachother. So with confidant players in your group, there's not much of an issue. We teach this strat to wgt newbies, you can do 2 dps and healer and tank as well.

As far as the inverse being true, when I 2-3 man wgt we all go dps. I keep a set of whitestrakes in my pack for the last boss. It works great.

I usually que for random vet dungeons as a tank on my dps toon. I just equip a taunt and sustain. 5-1-1 medium light and heavy, nothing special. I just dps and use my dodge and block abilities. Of course it all comes to playstyle, and skill. Most pug tanks I see, (if they even taunt) do little more than hold block.

^this is about the same as me just hard casting frags or spamming snipe on a dps toon. Look at your skills, be creative.

Rickter

zos just needs to come out with a series of some vICP difficulty level veteran dungeons and that way the easy content stays easy and the harder content is there to shut you hippies up.

Krozen

Rickter wrote: »

zos just needs to come out with a series of some vICP difficulty level veteran dungeons and that way the easy content stays easy and the harder content is there to shut you hippies up.

I agree, but they should stay away from the Tank DPS Checks like in WGT.

NBrookus

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Kozai wrote: »

For opposite examples, for the last boss in Darkshade Cavern it is almost pointless to have a tank.

Unless it's been "fixed," Engine Guardian can be tanked by a magicka DK to hold him in place for a faster burn. It's been a while since I've tanked DSC and they've changed the relevant skill since.




(And yes I am being vague because it's like discovering an Easter egg.)

You mean chain-spamming during the green phase to get the boss "stuck" to prolong the duration of the green phase? That no longer works after the changes to chains last patch. It was definitely a very fun (and funny) strategy to use. I also used to remain as tank and just range-taunt the adds when they spawn. But I find it easier these days to just be a DD for that fight--it's easier if the adds just die.

Well, shoot. I was afraid it would get fixed when they worked on chains.

I guess it's like tanking the pinion in vWGT -- you have to have enough DPS for it to be a viable strategy and make the boss go down faster, but at some point when you have even more DPS it no longer makes much sense to do it that way.

You could always group up the adds and cc them. You'd be suprised how much this helps.

If you've got more than a couple of adds in vWGT, stuff is already going sideways.

If you are talking about DSC, I just usually swap to Damage with a side of crowd control during that fight.

mistermutiny89

Nothing has been as detrimental to the tanking community as the up and coming patch. They have obliterated tanks beyond repair. If we could get some people with at least an eighth of a brain cell working at ZoS, it'd be happy days. They just have zero clue, have they actually tested anything?? Yeah let's boost the cost of blocking, then remove the 20% cost reduction from the armour, then remove the possible 25% cost reduction from the red tree in champion points, but let's still have heavy armour take damage almost identical to medium armour.

Now we are forced to use all block cost reduction on our jewelry, my sap tank once had all spell damage, the patches just get worse and worse and worse. There's just no thought process. I feel bad for them.

Rex-Umbra

Tanks should get XP and AP based on damage they take in PvP the same way healers do in PvP.