Skill Based Ideas

• More Percent Health Scaling:The only Skills that I am aware of that scale off Percent of User's Health are the Clanfear Heal on Sorcerer, The Undaunted Bone Sheild(will be made stamina scaling), and Green Dragon Blood for Dragonkight (Which has percent MISSING Health). This makes Health, which may Tanks will put more points into, somewhat of a dead stat. Stamina and Magika function as both resources AND damage scaling. Health however is strictly a resource. I understand that health scaling can't be too large or abundant without it being abused, but Tanks need some health based damaging skills. With all of the current Percent Health scaling being heal and shield based, Tanks are left completely useless in PvP and some Dungeons.
• Health Costing Abilities:I am not aware of any abilities in ESO that cost Health instead of Stamina or Magika. As such, I suggest that Health Cost Skills would make a fine addition to Tanks. For one, it gives Health a bit more of a use than "I can take this much damage". Combined with Health Scaling Skills, it would give Tanks the option to sacrifice survivability for damage for short periods of time, both giving them the option to deal some damage without completely respecializing AND allow them a place in Dungons with untauntable bosses. The scaling would have to be toned down from the Stamina and Magika rates, as we don't want to change the Tank role to DPS with Health. For two, it would be a good way to discourage DPS from taking these skills, leaving them for Tanks. A standard DPS has maybe 15k Health, where some tanks can reach up to 40k. By giving the Skills a flat Health Cost, it would make the average DPS far less likely to use it. If the skill, in theory, cost 1k health, a DPS would be dropped to 14k (93%) where a Tank would still have 39k(97%).
• Test-Based Skill Lines: While just throwing a Percent Health scaling skill into the mix may be dangerous for the game, forcing players to complete a simple challenge to gain a Skill Line or Ranks in a Skill Line would solve this AND open up new possibilities. In example, a Skill Line with Percent Health scaling could be gated behind a test where the player must survive a time without taking any action. Meanwhile, a DPS based line could be gated behind a challenge where all enemies in an area must be defeated in time. I would like to think these "Gated Skill Lines" could be attributed to the Deadric Cults usually found in Elder Scrolls games, but that can be discussed and fleshed out later.

Krozen wrote: »

Even as a Tank, I cannot blame them. Some bosses are completely immune to taunt, causing the Tank to be dead weight, as they exchange damage for survivability that does nothing if the bosses are not focused on the Tank.

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

Woeler wrote: »

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build. Bosses like the Planar Inhibitor are a breath of fresh air, even if it takes people out of their comfort zone. You can't expect to run through everything with 1 setup, 1 set of gear and 1 set of skills. Flexibility is simply needed as a tank, and I'd hate it to be forced into and bound to only that role.

The problem with that is now that you are both a lesser Tank than others AND a lesser DPS. In that case, assuming every player wishes to optimize, why would you have either role. You won't be as tanky as a full tank, and you'll NEVER be able to deal as much damage as a pure DPS.

Miszou wrote: »

It could be as simple as just increasing your resistances/mitigation based on your health pool, just as damage is increased based on magicka/stamina.

Scaling resistances would be fantastic if not for the armor cap, which is a different beast all together, but still a thorn in the tank's side. (Armor cap but no penetration cap, and abundant penetration from numerous sources, etc)
I like that idea though, I like it alot. Simple, clean, easy, and functional.

Woeler wrote: »

Tanks that cannot switch to a dps setup by switching gear and skills have a bad build.

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

^^^ This. So much this. I hear this all the time "Just switch your gear and role"... what does that translate to? Your role isn't needed. Awesome. Thanks. Great asinine workaround to the real problem. Please, name for me one time ONE TIME all the DPS switch to tanks hmm? "Oh we need three tanks and one healer for this boss." Oh please -.-

Tanks already have the most thankless job, we're often stuck playing a mini-game of resource management and taunt and skill rotations that aren't really flashy or impressive. The only reward a good tank gets is in their own satisfaction. People NOTICE when a boss health bar melts, people NOTICE when a healer saves their life(most times >~>) but does anyone notice when the tank makes sure the trash is collected in a nice tight circle for aoe? Does anyone notice when the tank makes sure no adds are bothering/endangering the healer? When a tank does their job, no one notices because they did their job.

Tanks are already almost worthless in PvP since they're no threat, and there's little way to force 'artifical' focus, smart players will always target the biggest threat (DPS and heals) and then the tank is left for last, outnumbered and without any support or hope of killing anyone, left to slowly be whittled down under sustained DPS from massive resource pools and skill Scaling that the tank can never hope to match... do we really need to s*** on them in PvE too???

I think the Point is, that we dont wanna be the flexible guys in this relationship. We give and give, but nothing Comes back.... We want to faceroll, like those dps.:P

One Point is: why you have to Group as Tank in lfg, if dependant on certain bosses you realy need one or not..

Problem: you cant do content harder, because:
- playerbase is stupid and doesent min/max "because i want to Play like i was ment to do..." Sobb, whine, flame, troll
--> make content easyer
- Developers are stupid, because they cant balance tanks or tankyness into pvp
--> make content easyer

Noone wants to tank randoms anYmore
--> tankpopulation decreases
Sobb, whine, flame, troll.

==> make content so *** easy; it doesent matter how stupid you are or if you have a Tank or not. You can do it anyway. because "we dont want to deny anyone teh fuun....

I've commented on this before and made a similar post. You missed Sun Shield in your health-scaled list of skills.

1. I definitely think the lack of health scaling is a problem, and I've been saying this a long time. They lowered our multiplier on health, lowered the multiplier on many health scaled skills, and lowered their benefit in pvp further. Health as a stat has been continually brought low, and it is the only stat that serves only one function. At the very least stam/mag scale damage for their weapon/spell attacks respectively, while also granting a greater resource pool to draw upon. Health does no such thing and I've offered many suggestions including: stronger light/heavy attacks, cc duration reduction, lowered cc break costs, lowered block costs, improved damage mitigation, improved penetration resistance, lowered sprint costs, lowered sneak costs, lowered dodge roll costs, etc. I'm not arguing that all of these things should be added, but I'm just making examples where I believe having a higher health stat might perhaps scale to something different than damage.
2. I definitely think the associated costs of being a tank is an even bigger problem. The costs of twin sets of gear, the cost of constantly bouncing back and forth between builds. The time associated with that, or the time wasted while trying to do everything in Tank role.
3. Many of the mitigation based skills benefit from damage stats as opposed to the stat meant for mitigation (health). This has been something I discussed as well, and it was one reason I've not been fond of shields based on anything but health. I'm not going to say much on this because it is clear they're already looking into this area with DB.
4. I find it odd that Dodging is a superior form of mitigation to Blocking on the whole (Particularly where pvp is concerned). Blocking should not give you 0% stamina regeneration. I can understand seeing a reduction, but I've been against this change for quite some time. It wrecked builds like the Bosmer Tank for instance, and certainly disadvantages other groups like Templars, Redgards, and Khajiit Tanks by nullifying their inherent benefits. I understand what they were trying to do, but I still feel 0% regeneration is overboard, and really hurts the stamina focused tank build unfairly. One also has to note that Dodge Rolling is mobile as it moves you in a direction away from the target rapidly in whatever chosen direction you desire. Blocking forces the player to stand still more or less.

These are just a few of my quick musings on the topic.

Nerf DPS life points heavily.
Nerf DPS armor heavily.
Now they CAN'T go past a tank.

A DPS should be squishable, not a halftrack tank.

Of course you agree, I said it. XD

JK.

I'm a punter far more than pundit I'm afraid. I really don't mind how ZOS deliver improvements, so long as they do. I'm convinced that they could improve the game by having a stronger vision for defensive abilities and builds. It's just way way too DPS oriented right now. Swapping gear and abilities isn't the answer. That's not balancing the game, that's just working around the imbalance. The game playing equivalent of sweeping the dust under the rug. Trouble is the rug is beginning to show a bulge now.

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

Guppet wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

By that logic, DPS that cannot switch to a tank setup also have a bad build, but no-one cares because if you need a tank for a dungeon you just get a real one and then make the tank change to DPS if necessary...

Sure thing. Any DD should be able to tank if they have the right tanking gearset in their bags. I carry full tank gear on two DD characters, and a shield on my other two if they ever need to off-tank anything. I make it a point that every one of my characters can be a DD and can be a support role, whether it's a tank or healer.

The issue is that tanks are a group support role. It makes absolutely no sense to be a tank when you're soloing: who are you supporting, and what is the point of holding aggro? So tanks, out of sheer necessity, need to be able to switch to non-tank simply because it makes no sense to be in a group support role when you have no group. There is no need for a DD to switch to tanking. Though being able to fill a support role like healing or tanking does make finding groups so much easier. And doing multiple roles on a character makes me a better player in general by way of giving me better familiarity with the class and how the various roles work on that class.

What if a tank enjoys the tanking playstyle even when solo? That seems to be a good enough reason to tank solo to me. When your solo, there is less need to be optimised, so long as you can complete the content you are doing.

Your assuming everyone that plays wants to play at 100% efficiency, even when solo. You know what they say about assuming!!

Playing solo as tank works only because the solo content in this game had been nerfed to oblivion and is boring as hell. If the vet zones retained their original difficulty, you would not be able to complete the content. In any case, when I said "solo", I mostly had vMA in mind, as it's the only piece of solo content that provides a challenge to anyone.

Anyway, Woeler's original comment in this chain of discussion is that a good well-rounded tank is one that can fill the DD role. So if a play-how-you-want player doesn't care about "100% efficiency" and wants to remain tank even in scenarios where it makes no sense to be a tank, that's their prerogative, of course, but that doesn't change or invalidate the original point that Woeler made.

LinearParadox wrote: »

Cously wrote: »

A good way to motivate tanks would be boost S&S DPS...

NO. Just... no. Stop making this game DPS: Online. Yes damage is important, but it's not the end-all beat-all it's being made to be.
I have, VR 16 and mostly fully geared....
A Sorc Mag DPS,
A Temp mag healer
A DK tank.
(I also have a VR3 Stam NB that I'm waiting on the vet rank removal for XP)

I can complete more difficult dungeons like WGT and ICP. My magplar has completed vMA without using the sigils. I understand dealing damage, I understand healing, I understand tanking and my builds aren't bad. I'm not crying about tanks because I can't do/don't understand anything else.
Tank are in a BAD SPOT.

No other type of build suffers the same lack of deversity, lack of adaptability, lack of use in many situations, etc.
They have a poor toolkit for their job in terms of sustain and threat generation, and often their already poor threat generation is completely nullified by untauntable bosses.
I'm sick and tired of tanks being thought of as tissue; to be used on the rare occasion you need them then thrown away and either excluded from the group or forced to reskill, respec, regear, reallocate champ points, etc all to adapt to a glaring hole in the game the despite ZoS trying to claim that all content can be completed by all types of groups, that's just not true.

Think of it this way, as many players have said above...
DPS can off-tank quite easily through active mitigation forms like blocking, dodging, shielding.
DPS also often have abilities like Swallow Soul, Vigor, Rally, etc that help them heal themselves and often others as well.
Healers can DPS a little because there's resource pool Scaling and many also take some spell/weapon damage as that scales their heals as well.
Healers can also often 'heal tank' for a limited time, providing they don't get burst down, by just mass healing through damage. It's not optimal by anyears but it can be done.
ALL of this is WITHOUT switching spec or gear.

Now... what do tanks have like that? Yeah. I rest my case.

It's not my intent to push the game DPS only, but that was ZOS. The same can be seem in games like SWTOR were they implemented easy ways to complete content without the trinity and everyone can DPS. Since we are stuck with this direction (dungeons are made easier like ICP and WGT, so it's much less likely anyone will need a tank), the alternative seems put some DPS on tanks or accept tanks will be a trial commodity to be unshelved when is raid time. I'm all for the trinity but seems like ZOS isn't.

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love it if both Puncture/Pierce Armor and Inner Fire gained a "while slotted" bonus that increases threat generated from all your attacks and abilities by 150%. Ransack Morph would lose the Taunt and threat increase for the rare number of players who actually use it as an actual attack.

This, but make it 300-500% or something because DPS just do so much more damage than tanks, 150% is not going to cut it.

I really like ESO as a whole, but the grouping experience is awful. I understand people that like GW2 style of content will love ESO's grouping mechanics, but I prefer a ''normal'' grouping experience like *cough* WoW *cough* with specific roles that are actually required.

Right now, you don't even need tanks and healers for 99% of content, just run 4 DPS with 1-2 people running Vigor and that's it.

Makes me really sad because I don't see myself playing long term (when a few MMOs and single player games I am waiting for come out) because DPSing is the role I really dislike and it's basically ESO's entire playstyle...