DDuke wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So... I don't know if this has been mentioned before (not really in the mood of going through the previous 9 pages), but is there a reason why there is no stamina based pet for sorcerers?

I believe that by making the Clannfear morph cost stamina (and scale with stamina/weapon damage), stamina sorcerer survivability in PvP could be greatly increased.


In preparation for the next patch, I've been trying a heavy armor stamina sorc build utilizing the Clannfear, but when the pet deals almost zero damage and the heal costs half your magicka pool, well...

@DDuke this is a suggestion I have been making for pretty much a year now. The Clannfear does PHYSICAL damage but the skill only scales with Max magicka.

Mmh... that instant cast heal would really help with survivability on stamina sorc.


Speaking of which, this seems to be the major issue (atleast for me) when it comes to PvP.

When you look at other classes (stamina builds) & what they get to make them more tanky/heal more...

Templars: Major Mending, Minor Protection, Minor Vitality, Major Ward, Major Resolve, AoE heal circle (small heals for stam builds)
DKs: Major Mending (comes with a dmg shield), Major Ward, Major Resolve, Scales, instant heals from ultis & Coagulating Blood
NBs: Minor Protection (comes with invisibility), Major Ward/Resolve (without having to slot any skill), Minor Maim & extra healing from every siphoning skill slotted

Sorcs: Major Ward/Resolve, Minor Ward/Resolve (by slotting Bound Armaments, which takes not one but two skill slots), instant heal with Clannfear (which again by being a toggle takes two skill slots) that takes half your magicka pool every cast.


There's a pretty big problem here.

Basicly at this point, a medium armor stamina DK is more tanky than my 7x Impenetrable heavy stam sorc.


Solutions:

• Make pets (and/or Bound Armaments) only take one skill slot
• Give stamina sorcs a defensive buff/debuff to make them more balanced with other classes. Maybe Major+Minor evasion for Hurricane (or miss chance for opponents within it)?
• More stamina friendly passives.
• Make clannfear a stamina morph.

This is why I'm a big advocate of the removal of toggles, and also a big advocate of them reworking Exchange/Surge for the better.

Well, Surge is actually pretty good...


Crit Surge (roughly Vigor strength heal every second with Bloodthirst), Bloodthirst (another Vigor strength heal), Vigor, Forward Momentum & passive heals+roots with Restraining Prison


That's a ton of heals you can get as a stam sorc. In many ways, it plays like magicka templar with sweeps. Sadly, it isn't always enough to survive incoming dmg (even in 1v1) based on my tests - not even in 7 heavy impen.

This is why I think some kind of instant cast heal, "oh ***" button should be given to stamina sorcs - else you're pretty much pigeonholed to Bone Shield (which btw isn't that impressive...).

That's why I like the notion of something for exchange, particularly since I don't feel a Storc should be using pets in the same manner as a MagSorc (I could potentially see some clanfear usage though). The problem I have with surge is that impen is so heavily used in Cyrodiil, and I'm concerned about balance for Storc players here.

Hurricane
It now provides a mobility buff that can only be found one other place in game. This gives us our iconic mobility back, and provides us opportunities to create unique builds that can stack Expedition buff. This is a great change, and exactly what we needed to make Hurricane a viable skill in PvP.

Disintegrate
This is a mediocre passive for Magic Sorcs. The proc rate is so low that most of the time you wouldn't even notice the extra damage unless you had addons. However, we will actually be able to get more more out of it than Magic Sorcs would, because we have more physical damage in our toolkit than Magic Sorcs have lighting. This is a good change, but it's not going to suddenly allow us to compete with other classes in DPS.

Energized
A damage increase to a vast majority of our abilities is nice. However, updating this and Disintegrate doesn't fix the fact that there are still five utility passives that are completely useless for all but a few very niche builds.

Dark Exchange
This change had good intentions, but it misses the mark. While the amount healed was one of the complaints with this ability. The biggest roadblock to having this skill used in endgame content is the cast time. The cast time on this ability has to go; as long as it stays this skill will remain unused by endgame players. In addition to making it instant cast, I would like to see the increased healing reduced to 50% (instead of 100%), and have the heal scale up on the opposite resource used to cast it. (ex The heal from Dark Deal would cost magic, and return stam, but scale on your max stam and weapon damage.)

Surge
This is the perfect example of a well intended buff gone very wrong. This is exactly how this skill worked back in 1.5 and it was changed because no one used it. Not only is this a a nerf to HPS and burst healing in PvE and PvP, for Magic and Stam Sorcs, but it also changes the core function of the heal. Surge was a unique heal because it provided you with opportunities to gain great burst healing while maintaining pressure on your target. With this change Surge no longer serves that function, and has now become an unreliable Rally without the on demand burst heal. There is no situation where using this would be better than using Rally.

@Wrobel when you told us you were going to return DoTs to Surge the general expectation was that the internal cooldown, and core functionality of the skill was going to stay the same. DoTs are already balanced due to the fact they have lower damage, most tick once a second, and there a ways to remove DoTs from yourself and allies. If you really feel that just adding DoTs to the base skill would make it to powerful then change the amount DoTs can heal heal for. Do not change the internal cooldown or the healing received from direct damage. We did not expect you to make this a worse version of 1.5's completely unused Surge.

With the addition of DoTs to Surge, the change to Flurry, and Silver Leash becoming a gap closer, I was really looking forward to running a Dual Wield and Bow build. However, this change will once again ensure we are chained to the Two Hand skill line if we want to retain a small semblance of our current survivability, in PvP.

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Have you actually tested this on PTS? The heal is really strong considering it procs pretty much every second once you have DoTs etc going on. In terms of strength, it is on the same level as Vigor - only it lasts 33 seconds rather than 5, and gives you Major Brutality as well.

By no means is it a bad skill, or worse than before for builds like DW/Bow (pretty much every Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst should proc it).

PvP wise considering everyone will have a damage shield, I hardly see this as being "reliable" and who wants a skill to become "useless" when their enemy is at their peak strength (shields up and full health). Or even borderline dying, because Healing Ward and Annulment just became a standard for all magicka classes (minus the Templars). And that's either 6 seconds you have to wait until you can start proccing heals or 25k worth of damage shields from a full strength Healing Ward and Dampen Magic.

Not that Surge has ever really been all that reliable in PvP since 1.5? but this change didn't all of a sudden make it viable for PvP. It did however absolutely DESTROY it for solo Mag Sorcs. Goodbye 530k+ vMA scores, you'll be missed.

Crit surge works on shields

Ajax_22 wrote: »

We did not expect you to make this a worse version of 1.5's completely unused Surge.

ohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygod he said it.


This is exactly what I've been saying and what everyone who's never ran stam sorc has been arguing against during this pts patch...

People are trying it out on template builds and severely misunderstanding how much of a nerf this is to how we used to be.

Stam sorcs are a niche class, that when ran by a very skilled user can pull 2/3rds of their dps as heals from crit surge, even in pvp!

This still isn't op when compared to the other classes, I've lost 1v1s to every other class there is; but we're getting nerfed into 1.5.

acw37162 wrote: »

Daymond wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Have you actually tested this on PTS? The heal is really strong considering it procs pretty much every second once you have DoTs etc going on. In terms of strength, it is on the same level as Vigor - only it lasts 33 seconds rather than 5, and gives you Major Brutality as well.

By no means is it a bad skill, or worse than before for builds like DW/Bow (pretty much every Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst should proc it).

PvP wise considering everyone will have a damage shield, I hardly see this as being "reliable" and who wants a skill to become "useless" when their enemy is at their peak strength (shields up and full health). Or even borderline dying, because Healing Ward and Annulment just became a standard for all magicka classes (minus the Templars). And that's either 6 seconds you have to wait until you can start proccing heals or 25k worth of damage shields from a full strength Healing Ward and Dampen Magic.

Not that Surge has ever really been all that reliable in PvP since 1.5? but this change didn't all of a sudden make it viable for PvP. It did however absolutely DESTROY it for solo Mag Sorcs. Goodbye 530k+ vMA scores, you'll be missed.

Crit surge works on shields

I'm not going to say it doesn't but I spent roughly 15 to 20 min testing his today in PVP and got not one crit heal from arrow barrage, caltrops, or hurricane against a shield. The test was preformed against one other player using both bone shield - spiked armor morph and annulment - harness magica morph.

Edit;

The more I play with crit surge on test the more I dislike it in this version. For myself, I would much rather have the burst heal capability then the capped DOT heal capability.

My vote is to leave it as it is in love even if it means I can't use flurry and arrow barrage to proc it.

Just one opinion.

I think people are settling for them to put it back to how it used to be not realizing we were in a bad state to begin with.

@Wrobel, we begged you to fix it, and now we're begging for our old version back

Either remove the cooldown or give us our old version back with a stam morph of frags.

This is getting reallllllLLLllly maddening

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

@Cathexis you have me dreaming of melee staff fighting in eso. Your last post read like staff=stam sorc to me. Would be epic to meet you on the battlefield, both with long staves to whack each other. Definitely not on the list for ZOS to implement soon, but we can always hope for another weapon or two in te long term.

I'd love to play a staff wielding (stamina style) Templar monk as well. There are a lot of cool ideas for using staff as a stamina (weapon damage) weapon. It would fit in well with a Polearm skill line too, if they chose to make one.

Ok... you do realize there are 4 different stamina weapons lines and only 2 magika ones right? And one of them is healing only, basically since its damage was heavily nerfed? And you want to take some of that away for more stamina weapons? Ok...

Well if you count class skills, mag gets 5 skill lines, not even including proxy det and purge and a few other abilities...

Cathexis wrote: »

I really think they are making surge far too complicated.

Keep it Crit = 40/60% damage return as health, allow it to work with dots, proc every .5 or 1s, and add a rally style HoT...

Allows healing through shields, healing with flurry, large heal procs from crit rush, and works with crit and non crit builds.

You realize that you just described a nerf from what's on live right now, right?

Currently, the cooldown is .1 second.

If they let the current surge become compatible with those other skills, that'd be a buff.

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

I really think they are making surge far too complicated.

Keep it Crit = 40/60% damage return as health, allow it to work with dots, proc every .5 or 1s, and add a rally style HoT...

Allows healing through shields, healing with flurry, large heal procs from crit rush, and works with crit and non crit builds.

You realize that you just described a nerf from what's on live right now, right?

Currently, the cooldown is .1 second.

If they let the current surge become compatible with those other skills, that'd be a buff.

you cant just expect to make surge, like it is right now, to work with dots ADDITIONALY. If you go that way, its just stupid.
If you want a fair skill, AND want it to work with DoTs, then you need to mkae a change that seems like a nerf to 0 DoT playstile or a crit rush/WB playstile.

And im asking myself if you ever read my answer and used your brain and thought about it.
Guess not.

I prefer constant and reliable Heal over unreliable burst heal from a crit WB, or a reliable heal that needs me to have at least like 10m Range to work.
I want to go with constand DPS and constant Heal. Not with inconstant DPS, because i need to go away from my enemy for heal. Or constant DPS but inconstant Heal.

Yes it may be a nerf for you playstile. But its still playable.
It WASNT playable for flurry builds. Now both builds get the same amount of healing. I think thats fair.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

That does it. I am absolutely convinced the development team doesn't play their own game but instead just sit around theory crafting.

Which speaks volumes about their ability to design games - as most theory-crafting on these forums by people who don't design games is usually far better...

You mean like ppl like Deltia? lulz

kmatt wrote: »

Without the Sorc Burst heal from surge, is there even a reason to play stam sorc over stam templar now?

mobility, surge heal is as strong as vigor now and can be stacked, good chance to disintegrate enemies (it can proc from dots) and third ability bar

Erraln wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Naked without gear using food. Tooltip doesn't scale with Health, Stamina, or Wpn Damage. Tooltip does scale with Blessed but not Quick Recovery in Champ tree.



@Erock25 @CP5 @Cathexis @TBois @FENGRUSH @Ajax_22 and too many others...

Wow. It's like they said 'how can we simultaneously make this work for flurry, AND turn off magicka vMA easymode?'

Combined with the shield changes, it certainly accomplishes that.

EDIT: Upon testing, this heal is RELIABLE. It is no longer a burst, but it may be an improvement for any fight with duration.

will it proc now of damage over time ?

After fooling around on the PTS, some feedback to the changes:

- Dark exchange: yes, it needed a tweak. IMHO its more useful now. Still, IMHO the cast time should go, the stamina recovery part should be higher (or as mentioned above somewhere, a stamina over time should be added). If needed, the health gain should be lowered a bit. With the cast time, for me its anything but universal, seems to useful only in solo play to counterbalance the surge changes in the healing department.
- Disintegrate: nice touch!
- Hurricane: the minor expedition is nice, the damage seems to me okay, however, im not a big fan of this "grows in time" thingy.IMHO the damage and the area should be a constant, if you want you could add minor breach or something to it, but otherwise seems fine to me. Or maybe a longer duration. Or leave it as be, just get rid of the grow while active thing. (9m/double the initial damage all the way).
-Surge: I honestly, dont know. Its different now. Proccing out of dots is nice, personally i dont like the flat value heal and the CD seems unnecesseary (or maybe a shorter CD, 0,5 sec?). Again, IMHO some tweaking should be welcome - and by tweaking i mean buffing, since a buff is always welcome
-Energized: thanks!

Of course, a good deal of issues/personal preferences left, but at least the general direction felt good.

Some toughts of mine just out of my head, by class skill lines:

Daedric summoning:

- Maybe one of the the athronachs should be a stamina/wind version.
- pets in their current state (have to be on both bars, magicka only - and we have the hunt set! - fragile, etcetcetc) borderline crap. IMHO, one of the pets should go from the skill line and/or they should not be permanent (summon it like the athronach, he does his stuff, goes home).
- Bound armor. Toggle, both bars, oh the horror. The game is already skillbar-locked, and we have to use a slot for its passives? Please redesign. (And yes, haveing to keep it on both bar for its passives is a big issue IMHO).
- Rebate and expert summoner: see pets above.
- ( maybe, just maybe, but this skill line is pretty much conjuration, so either instead of one of the pets or maybe as an active part of the bound armament/armor: a conjured weapon, magicka/stamina morph, melee range, etcetcetc.)

Dark magic:
From a stamina viewpoint, its almost useless skilline. Well, its magic after all. Leave it or give the skill line some stamina love

Strom calling:

- Overload: maybe a stamina morph? Something windy? (The difference between the morpsh is pretty small anyway)
- Bolt escape (streak, mostly). I like this skill. Maybe, just maybe a stamina morph for this?
- Maybe capacitor should have some stamina love if we are at it.

acw37162 wrote: »

Daymond wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Have you actually tested this on PTS? The heal is really strong considering it procs pretty much every second once you have DoTs etc going on. In terms of strength, it is on the same level as Vigor - only it lasts 33 seconds rather than 5, and gives you Major Brutality as well.

By no means is it a bad skill, or worse than before for builds like DW/Bow (pretty much every Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst should proc it).

PvP wise considering everyone will have a damage shield, I hardly see this as being "reliable" and who wants a skill to become "useless" when their enemy is at their peak strength (shields up and full health). Or even borderline dying, because Healing Ward and Annulment just became a standard for all magicka classes (minus the Templars). And that's either 6 seconds you have to wait until you can start proccing heals or 25k worth of damage shields from a full strength Healing Ward and Dampen Magic.

Not that Surge has ever really been all that reliable in PvP since 1.5? but this change didn't all of a sudden make it viable for PvP. It did however absolutely DESTROY it for solo Mag Sorcs. Goodbye 530k+ vMA scores, you'll be missed.

Crit surge works on shields

I'm not going to say it doesn't but I spent roughly 15 to 20 min testing his today in PVP and got not one crit heal from arrow barrage, caltrops, or hurricane against a shield. The test was preformed against one other player using both bone shield - spiked armor morph and annulment - harness magica morph.

Edit;

The more I play with crit surge on test the more I dislike it in this version. For myself, I would much rather have the burst heal capability then the capped DOT heal capability.

My vote is to leave it as it is in love even if it means I can't use flurry and arrow barrage to proc it.

Just one opinion.

Easy fix. Just make it always heal when attacking damage shield. With the new cooldown, this won't be an issue.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

-change one morph for streak to use stamina and deal physical damage

I actually like both streak versions, and both have a right to exist in my opinion.
And i still need Magika speells for ulility as a Stam Sorc.
I cant go and waste all my Stamina for Utility Spells.