well... restore bracing passive... that will not happen because ZOS decided that, so... adapt or leave guys

DDuke wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Its just me or are the last 10 pages you guys arguing with duke?

I should probably stop giving a platform for the people that after every change to tanking in this game come to the forums and complain about how tanking got nerfed & heavy armor is weak and tanks need god mode buffs etc, even when there's evidence to the contrary.

So I guess I'm done with the thread, logic & reason aren't going to stop these people so it's just going in circles and will keep doing so, providing unnecessary attention to an unnecessary topic (which our dear friend @Personofsecrets will keep bumping anyway though).

Well, no one on this forum can comprehend why ZOS devs are trying to destroy the tank role in this game. We can only wait and see what will occur now that tanks will be pigeonholed into dps roles more and more while pure trials tanks will be extremely few.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

No fix for bracing...

QFT

The team has been reading everyone's feedback on Bracing, and are looking at making some adjustments. It's still being worked on which is why it wasn't in yesterday's incremental patch.

Maybe there is hope after all.

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

Wrobel wrote: »

We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role.

Thank you for stopping by to dialogue with us.

If I am reading this right your intention is NOT to remove the role of tanking from Heavy Armor but instead to give Heavy Armor a role beyond tanking. I wanted to warn you about something regarding this. If the Constitution passive does not become the essential role in tanking due to stamina return while blocking then Heavy Armor will cease to be a preferred armor class for tanking. If I can handle the costs for blocking without the constitution passive then I will couple block cost reduction to a LA armor, Armor Master set and sit at mitigation cap, with all the blocking and health of a heavy armor tank along with all the sustain and damage of light armor. If you must decouple bracing, could we at least get 10% on Heavy armor and the rest on Sturdy (cut sturdy in half). This would let us have some remaining trait choices for our heavy set while also making a tank role highly sacrificial in Light Armor due to the reduction of sturdy.

Please also consider PvP in your changes to heavy armor.
1. The 20% armor penetration of the mace/maul passive entirely negates the mitigation of 5 gold heavy armor pieces. The penetration this provides is enormously excessive.
2. People use the bracing in PvP for "damage braking", and not just permablocking. When I am tanking in PvP and my health starts to lose balance I block for 2-3 seconds to allow my healing to catch up. With all the people hitting me my stamina would be destroyed in a second without block cost reduction. With the decoupling of bracing from heavy armor I can regain this through adding the trait, but now I lose the essential crit reduction trait.

Minus the sacrifice of bracing I am pleased with your addition of Wrath, and the recognition that heavy armor needed damage on it.

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

Thank you for listen and communicating back to us. I especially appreciate hearing that nerfing tanking isn't the goal, especially given how fun it is to tank MoL.

Personally, I don't mind making some changes from patch to patch. But while Sturdy is potentially a great new option, please don't include in your calculations the assumption that every tank will have to regrind or recraft all their legendary gear to get the sturdy trait to be able to function. Not only is that about as much fun as a root canal, the cost of Tempering Alloys is insanely high compared to other gold tempers.

Finally some communcation.
I was worried this will turn out in No regen during block 2.0.

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the recent changes to Bracing. We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role. However, we also didn't want the net effect of the changes to Heavy Armor to affect tanks too much by offsetting the loss of Bracing with buffs to Constitution and Mending--passives that also help non-tanks manage their resources.

The overall goal here is not to make tanking more difficult. The numbers for constitution were balanced around being hit every second. You guys have identified situations where you're getting hit every half second and having trouble with the quick stamina depletion. We're going to be reworking some things to make tanking easier in these situations.

Overall, we want players to have fun playing a tank and have enough resources to activate abilities. You aren't being ignored, we just didn't want to rush out a change for this past PTS incremental.

Thank you for stopping by. It's very appreciated to get some kind of feedback from you (maybe a bit sooner would be nice ).

My personal opinion is that Heavy Armor in a PVE group setting is for tanking only. Heavy Armor should not even be close to match the DPS of Medium or Light. If players want to use Heavy Armor for DPS with more survivability in a solo PVE or PVP situation, that's fine, I personally don't care about that. While the new Wrath passive is a interesting idea, it is completely useless for tanks in a group PVE environment.

Reduced block cost is very important for tanks in trial environments (it used to be important in 4-man dungeons as well, but those nerfs are another issue). While the buff to Constitution is appreciated, it is not enough to replace Bracing in a situation where you need to block several hard hitting mobs at once. Keeping the current value of Constitution and restoring Bracing might be slightly too good though. A middle ground could perhaps be found.

One of the worst part of tanking right now is the constant worry that you might run out of stamina to block a crucial hit. This makes it hard to justify using your stamina for anything but block and taunt and leads to a very boring playstyle. More resources for tanks is very welcome.

This is all based on how mitigation and blocking works in the game right now. The difference between blocking and not blocking is huge and blocking is crucial for tanks survival.

If the mitigation worked differently, maybe there would be another way.

If you want tanks to drop block more often to let stamina regenerate, do heavy attacks and use other helpful skills, then there will have to be some big changes. I suggest that mobs in general should hit harder, the mitigation cap on physical resistance should be raised, armor values on heavy armor should be raised and the amount blocked while blocking should be lowered. If balanced correctly, tanks could lower block more often than they currently can without dying instantly and blocking could be reserved for the big hits.

Basically, I think the difference between blocking and not blocking is way too big right now. But to lower the amount blocked, the mitigation cap on armour would have to be raised.

EDIT: Forgot one thing. I really, really, really dislike the new sturdy trait. No one wants to be forced to recraft all of their legendary armor just to get back a little bit of what they lost. Being forced into a specific trait is not fun.

I have a feeling that Heavy Armor is going to end up worse in the end because PvE players

@Wrobel
The goal is understandable and thanks for the explanation.
The issue is exactly in the situations explained when stamina depletion is a lot more.
So some more block reduction cost can help.
Imho this is achievable through HA armor passive skills (Wrath) or with the class - weapon skills more used by tanks.

1) An idea could be a changement to Defensive Posture and morphs:
- the cost of blocking is reduced by 8% as default
- the cost of blocking is reduced by 20-25% with 5 or more pieces of HA equipped

Otherwise something similar could be applied to Fortress: 30% reduction of blocking cost when using 1h&S, 50% reduction of blocking cost when using 1h&S and with 5 or more pieces of HA equipped.

Yes, it would be the only weapon skill line with an armor requirement, but it can work well.
This option infact would solve that issue without buffing too much who uses HA without 1h&S or who uses 1h&S with LA or MA. It would be directly aimed to tanks, without a negative impact in PvE and PvP and keeping the goal you explained:

We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role.

2) Another option could be through class skills:
for example, for NB tanks, Leeching Strikes could be changed into something similar to Siphoning Attacks but with toggle, weapon/spell damage debuff and adding X% block cost reduction.
This would solve in one changement both, at least for NB tanks.


Imho option 1 is more interesting and balanced.

From the other side of the fence, I'd rather just see a significant boost to Sturdy than anything else.

If Sturdy is to apply multiplicative with itself AND with Fortress I don't see too much issue with a legendary piece providing 7% per piece. That way, people are penalized for having more than 2-3 pieces of Sturdy on their armor due to diminished returns.

PvP DPS would be giving up a lot of impen/divines/infused/well-fitted to really bother with it (but they COULD if they wanted) and PvE tanks wouldn't have to give up as many slots to Sturdy and could focus more on the bonus stats they are getting. The higher % block cost reduction possible would also help to offset the increased cost of block if you wanted.

The HA traits on the PTS already give an HA user the power of roughly bonus 4 Mundus stones I don't mind feeling like i have to give up 3 traits if I want to block more, but I'm just one person.

PvP DPS would be giving up a lot of impen/divines/infused/well-fitted to really bother with it (but they COULD if they wanted) and PvE tanks wouldn't have to give up as many slots to Sturdy and could focus more on the bonus stats they are getting. The higher % block cost reduction possible would also help to offset the increased cost of block if you wanted.

The HA traits on the PTS already give an HA user the power of roughly bonus 4 Mundus stones I don't mind feeling like i have to give up 3 traits if I want to block more, but I'm just one person.

As a PvP 'pure' tank who doesnt DPS and who just supports their group, Impenetrable AND blocking go hand in hand with this type of role (which I exclusively run with) - I'm (we) are getting nothing but a raw deal / nerf due to the removal of Bracing.

Nothing Wrobel states above fills me with confidence tbh. I still dont see why bracing and wrath cant be applied together which keeps everyone happy.

An ideal solution to the problem has been given by @code65536 which I think would work:

And if I may offer a suggestion, restoring Bracing in conjunction with changing Constitution so that it returns more for unblocked hits than for blocked hits would offer an easy and quick solution that would restore the status quo for traditional tanks while preserving the new possibilities that the new Heavy Armor changes open up.

I would be happy with that solution - this keeps my survivability up in PvP without losing my impenetrable traits.

hrothbern wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

PvP DPS would be giving up a lot of impen/divines/infused/well-fitted to really bother with it (but they COULD if they wanted) and PvE tanks wouldn't have to give up as many slots to Sturdy and could focus more on the bonus stats they are getting. The higher % block cost reduction possible would also help to offset the increased cost of block if you wanted.

The HA traits on the PTS already give an HA user the power of roughly bonus 4 Mundus stones I don't mind feeling like i have to give up 3 traits if I want to block more, but I'm just one person.

As a PvP 'pure' tank who doesnt DPS and who just supports their group, Impenetrable AND blocking go hand in hand with this type of role (which I exclusively run with) - I'm (we) are getting nothing but a raw deal / nerf due to the removal of Bracing.

Nothing Wrobel states above fills me with confidence tbh. I still dont see why bracing and wrath cant be applied together which keeps everyone happy.

An ideal solution to the problem has been given by @code65536 which I think would work:

And if I may offer a suggestion, restoring Bracing in conjunction with changing Constitution so that it returns more for unblocked hits than for blocked hits would offer an easy and quick solution that would restore the status quo for traditional tanks while preserving the new possibilities that the new Heavy Armor changes open up.

I would be happy with that solution - this keeps my survivability up in PvP without losing my impenetrable traits.

If there is any kind of Armor type that deserves that some Crit Resistance per piece is put in the passives, it would be HA.

How can Plate Armor have weak spots, where a Precise (crit) Strike come through.
And it would enhance tanky roles in PVP with HA.

With some Crit Resist from HA passives, it is then up to the player to invest further in Crit Resist with Impe or go for some or more Sturdy.

Yup that would also work @hrothbern - again I would be happy with that solution mate That would also allow non-vet players (who dont have access to CPs) to replace impenetrable with sturdy if they wanted to go down that route without impacting crit resistence too much.

I await in anticipation for the next set of patch notes from the PTS.

hrothbern wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

We wanted to free up Heavy Armor to be able to fulfill more roles, and not pigeonhole those who use Heavy Armor to just a tanking role.

Thank you for stopping by to dialogue with us.

If I am reading this right your intention is NOT to remove the role of tanking from Heavy Armor but instead to give Heavy Armor a role beyond tanking. I wanted to warn you about something regarding this. If the Constitution passive does not become the essential role in tanking due to stamina return while blocking then Heavy Armor will cease to be a preferred armor class for tanking. If I can handle the costs for blocking without the constitution passive then I will couple block cost reduction to a LA armor, Armor Master set and sit at mitigation cap, with all the blocking and health of a heavy armor tank along with all the sustain and damage of light armor. If you must decouple bracing, could we at least get 10% on Heavy armor and the rest on Sturdy (cut sturdy in half). This would let us have some remaining trait choices for our heavy set while also making a tank role highly sacrificial in Light Armor due to the reduction of sturdy.

Please also consider PvP in your changes to heavy armor.
1. The 20% armor penetration of the mace/maul passive entirely negates the mitigation of 5 gold heavy armor pieces. The penetration this provides is enormously excessive.
2. People use the bracing in PvP for "damage braking", and not just permablocking. When I am tanking in PvP and my health starts to lose balance I block for 2-3 seconds to allow my healing to catch up. With all the people hitting me my stamina would be destroyed in a second without block cost reduction. With the decoupling of bracing from heavy armor I can regain this through adding the trait, but now I lose the essential crit reduction trait.

Minus the sacrifice of bracing I am pleased with your addition of Wrath, and the recognition that heavy armor needed damage on it.

@Armitas , you say:
If I can handle the costs for blocking without the constitution passive then I will couple block cost reduction to a LA armor, Armor Master set and sit at mitigation cap, with all the blocking and health of a heavy armor tank along with all the sustain and damage of light armor.

With Bracing removed from HA, replaced by Sturdy, and if the Resource sustain of HA becomes comparable with LA and MA, you can indeed still prefer for certain raids or solo to exchange some more Health and Healing from HA for some more Damage from Penetration and SPS/self-HPS from the 10% Crit of LA.
So what ?
That is not only fine, that is also exactly the freedom of choice that is being achieved now for a Role with much Blocking in the game
Certainly for the too easy raids, you can with LA contribute more to the DPS score or better solo.
But other (future) raids will perhaps demand more a max miti build, with high Health and Healing.
Other future raids again something else to be optimal.
More Armor types than can be used for Tanking means also many more Armor sets to choose from. Also choosing between supporting ways to the group.

This all will only increase the freedom of raid dungeon design for the devs
and will increase the build and role diversity and choices for Tanks.
With all their own charm and challenge.

Mr Wrobel made no mention of any intent to hand over the tanking role to LA/MA. The purpose of decoupling block cost was "to not pigenhole those who use heavy armor to just a tanking role". While his statement may appear awkward at first glance, I think it is a precisely chosen statement to withhold any impression that the role of tanking was being given away. It means that we can do more than just tank, not now other armor classes can tank.

You say you lose health and healing by switching to LA armor but do you really?

Health - You only need as much health as you need, beyond that it provides nothing but a bigger shield for igneous shield if you have it. The sustain you get from light armor will allow you to regularly pop shields which is a health bubble much larger than the +health that HA provides. Also by choosing LA Armor Master you get a head start on where you need to be then you would with Heavy Armor. In fact you are just done with what makes you a tank at 5 pieces. So maybe you pick up a different Jewelry set with health on it that you could not of chosen in Heavy Armor due to sustain issues.

Healing - How does +% healing compare to the sustain to cast self heals? It doesn't, any heal you yourself cast is way more health than the % extra from someone elses heal. It's also far more likely to be a crucial save then the % extra heal.

I think if you hand out the role of tanking to LA/MA then HA just has no purpose. Constitution would be the only unique aspect that could qualify HA for success in tanking. If it fails to be a make or break condition for the tanking role then HA will just be a sub armor class with no role but RP. If they have the intention of all 3 armor classes being equally viable for tanking then there needs to be no restraint at all on heavy armor so that Heavy armor can be equally viable for dps but balanced against it's 5%? extra mitigation. Wrath is great if we maintain the exclusive tank role, but if we are making all armor roleless then it needs a huge buff.

I think they should keep bracing (20% block cost reduction) and also add the extra damage besides it.
should be time if they buffed tanks instead of *curse* nerfing them all the time. I want to feel OP as tank and not Squishy.