Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Alina_Scarbridge wrote: »

I've been playing this game for a year. My main is now V12. I thoroughly enjoy the leveling process, exploring the world, and enjoying each stage of the game. I will probably level another character all the way after I get my main to V16. If she can make it before the DB patch.

Am I alone? Does no one else enjoy leveling? Is everyone just in a hurry to get to the top?

I am worried about so many changes being made with this patch, but hopeful that I can adjust and not lose my love for this game. It just seems like it's going to be a lot different.

You're not alone, OP.

I rather enjoy the Veteran Ranks and the Upward Character Progression that they provide, and I think moving to a Horizontal Character Progression system like they're doing is a mistake.

But Zenimax is determined to make this mistake, so there's nothing to do but let them make it.

Edit = IMO, the removal of Vet Ranks is a band-aid to appease impatient PvP kids who want nothing more than to have eight characters all at max level/gear in the shortest amount of time. They don't seem to realize that half of the fun of an MMO is the journey and questing to get each character to max level, and getting to explore that is being taken away with this change to just Champion Points and their horizontal plateau of not-really improving a character beyond level 50.

Like others have said; this will create a situation where you get 4, 6, 8 characters to max level in an extremely short amount of time, and then those same players whining for this change will be the players whining about how there isn't enough to do and/or a "lack of content"...

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

BlueViolet wrote: »

You're not the only one, I like Vet ranks too. I am a slow leveler and like to take my time. I have three vet level characters of varying ranks, the highest is vr10, and three others just about to hit v1. I'm sorry to see them going.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Never understand people who play this like battlefield or call of duty. I always thought the whole RPG part was the fun of it. People rush to get a V16 character than complain there is nothing to do.

I don't understand this either, but everyone plays differently I suppose.

(Guessing)

I think it's played and viewed in those ways because if you're not at max level, groups of player feel you don't belong or won't allow you to join with them. If it were just a few, no biggie but it's more of the "VR16 or we kick you or won't invite you" types so it causes this must reach max level in a rush focus.

A lot of this falls on the developer tho.
For example....removing VR levels as detailed by ZOS on PTS.
If they just removed all of VR.
And applied skill/stat points like they are but did not attach any gear requirements or NPC cp level indicators or any CP caps it would eleviate this. (Remove that focus)

Further, you then categorize leaderboards by cp range and level range. Not cap entirely
Campaigns for PvP be set by level and or CP ranges
Dungeons and trials not scale to any particular CP level but use levels 10-50 player levels and NPC levels of 10-56

It's how I see it

Tandor wrote: »

My only concern is Cadwells which I don't intend to do so have paced my leveling so that the DLCs can provide the alternative to Cadwells, [....]

Audigy wrote: »

While I am currently on hiatus, not playing - the removal of Vet Ranks still caught my ear and I have honestly just one simple question, what progress system will be coming to replace them?

I was browsing a few websites, the forum here and I could not find it?

Given, I am not that up to date with the current state of the game, it makes me wonder what there will be to do in future, if VR´s are gone and someone does not intend to raid or do pvp.What path players will take then, how will they progress their characters?

The beauty of the VR system has always been that you progressed towards something, something that was in the distance. At first VR 10 and right now VR 16. You had a journey ahead of you and at least those casuals of us, could always look up front, knowing we will never run out of progression.

If this feeling is gone, then I do not know... but something seems to be missing. Right now, many new games offer unlimited progress in their journey and I think that old "Ultima" tradition is very important these days. Let´s face it, we do have a burn out community, one which is tired of raiding or pvp for gear. Look at WOW, it´s a dead game with all it´s raids and pvp, people are not interested in it anymore. It´s a once in a lifetime thing, but not something you want to do day in and day out.

People want to progress beyond items, beyond leaderbords that require you to repeat stuff again and again. VR´s or the systems used in other games, were a fix to that burn out, therefore it makes me clueless as of why ZOS is now removing their progress system.

I am just thinking about how it must feel to reach level 50 and what players will be able to do then? Sure, there is content enough and you can play through the DLC´s or Cadwells, but what is the point if you can not gain anything from it? You might do it once for the story, but after?
To progress in a game is so important, even shooters have progress systems nowadays and we all know the attention span of the average "shooter fan". Therefore, removing the VR system seems like a wrong move to me, at least if they don´t offer something in return.

For raiders and as someone called them "impatient ones", this removal will be a blessing, but for everyone else and I assume they are the majority here, the loss of VR´s will be quite painful.

So I am asking this question again, what will replace VR´s, so that players not interested in item hunts or leaderboards, can still progress?

Lucky28 wrote: »

leveling your first character to V16 is pretty fun. doing it 2 or 3 more times. no, it's not fun at all.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

leveling your first character to V16 is pretty fun. doing it 2 or 3 more times. no, it's not fun at all.

Then, a question if I may.

Why play an MMORPG at all then?

If you want to hit the "battle" immediately and have max level gear and be at max level in a couple of hours, why not play a game that caters to that? Like an FPS or MOBA?

MMORPG's (which last time I checked, ESO is in this genre) are all about the Questing, Leveling, and the journey to end-game content, and max gear/level.

So if that seems "not fun at all" to you, why play an MMORPG at all?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Problem is tho MMORPGs are like that. It isnt like call out duty or the first person shooters where you instantly hit the battle etc. These games dont work like that. In order to enjoy end game content you have to get to end game first. If you dont like the idea of levels breaking immersion think of it as experence. Do you really think kings would ask for the assistance of some unknown new adventurer with some hand cuffs and a broke sword?

Gidorick wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

While I am currently on hiatus, not playing - the removal of Vet Ranks still caught my ear and I have honestly just one simple question, what progress system will be coming to replace them?

I was browsing a few websites, the forum here and I could not find it?

Given, I am not that up to date with the current state of the game, it makes me wonder what there will be to do in future, if VR´s are gone and someone does not intend to raid or do pvp.What path players will take then, how will they progress their characters?

The beauty of the VR system has always been that you progressed towards something, something that was in the distance. At first VR 10 and right now VR 16. You had a journey ahead of you and at least those casuals of us, could always look up front, knowing we will never run out of progression.

If this feeling is gone, then I do not know... but something seems to be missing. Right now, many new games offer unlimited progress in their journey and I think that old "Ultima" tradition is very important these days. Let´s face it, we do have a burn out community, one which is tired of raiding or pvp for gear. Look at WOW, it´s a dead game with all it´s raids and pvp, people are not interested in it anymore. It´s a once in a lifetime thing, but not something you want to do day in and day out.

People want to progress beyond items, beyond leaderbords that require you to repeat stuff again and again. VR´s or the systems used in other games, were a fix to that burn out, therefore it makes me clueless as of why ZOS is now removing their progress system.

I am just thinking about how it must feel to reach level 50 and what players will be able to do then? Sure, there is content enough and you can play through the DLC´s or Cadwells, but what is the point if you can not gain anything from it? You might do it once for the story, but after?
To progress in a game is so important, even shooters have progress systems nowadays and we all know the attention span of the average "shooter fan". Therefore, removing the VR system seems like a wrong move to me, at least if they don´t offer something in return.

For raiders and as someone called them "impatient ones", this removal will be a blessing, but for everyone else and I assume they are the majority here, the loss of VR´s will be quite painful.

So I am asking this question again, what will replace VR´s, so that players not interested in item hunts or leaderboards, can still progress?

They're removing the Vet Ranks, and making the mistake of leaving the Champion Point system as our only method of "progressing" a character. Which is not any type of actual progression with how it's designed.

It's moving your character along a horizontal plateau, but with no progressing towards something.

As I said. It's a band-aid to appease the PvP kiddos who're too impatient and want eight characters all at max gear as immediately as possible. These will also be the players first-in-line to whine that they're running out of stuff to do.

They really don't understand that an MMORPG is about the journey to the top, not just being at the top.

Again, I agree @Uriel_Nocturne ... I don't really even need to comment because your opinion on this covers my own.

I really wish ZOS would listen to more than the loud squeaky wheels. The whole reason VR ranks were an issue is that they took FOREVER to gain. All ZOS needed to do was split Vet Ranks into smaller levels. I recommended they retool VR ranks into 30 regular levels:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1

Gidorick wrote: »

This is a similar, but different concept for Veteran Rank replacement. While I am still suggesting VR be replaced with straight levels there are enough differences for me to just make a new thread. This thread does not suggest that we continue progression past level cap… I’ve separated that into another thread.

TL/DR
ZOS should convert Veteran Ranks to 30 levels, distributing the skill points of the 16 Vet Ranks accordingly.

Topics:

• Immediately raise the level cap to 80
• Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
• Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
• Current VR Rank Conversion

Immediately raise the level cap to 80
Soon, each VR Rank takes 850K XP to achieve. This is a daunting a task for many players, especially considering that the average XP requirement per level 41-50 is about 111,000 XP. Taking the average multiplier between levels 10-50 we can see a progression that is much more gradual and in line with the average increase in the XP required for each level prior to level 50.

In this post 50 Level system proposition, the first level in which players are required to achieve more than 1 million XP would be level 80, the suggested CAP. Level 80 would require 1,020,034 XP to reach.

The TOTAL number of XP required to level from VR1 to VR16 is 12,750,000. This proposed change would increase the total number of XP required to be about 13,800,000. Many VR 14 players would automatically achieve level 80 and would be at max level.

Convert all gear/recipes to the appropriate level
This new system would facilitate the conversion of current VR Gear and Recipes to Level gear and recipes.

Old Chart

If it’s decided to increase the levels beyond 80 ZOS could use the established gear interval to have gear released for every 2 levels instead of every single level. More on that in the thread Ongoing Level Progression Concept (not yet posted)

Skill, Attribute, and Champion Points
Post 50 progression incentives should be a little more separated than pre 50 progression. Skill points (SP), Attribute Points (AP), Champion Points (CP), and Gear Requirements (GR) shouldn’t be awarded for every level. These points can be distributed at a wider interval than 1-49 leveling.

Below is a chart of when players would be awarded the different progression incentives. It should be noted that this progression would not add any additional Skill Points or Attribute points to the current Veteran Rank system, they will just be awarded at different XP intervals.

Old Chart

It's interesting to note that adding 2 VR levels would actually make the conversion to levels 50-80 a more direct conversion.

• Skill Points: Skill points should be awarded every other level. This will result in the same 16 skill points that are awarded during VR leveling.
• Attributes: Attribute points should continue to be awarded every other level.
• Champion Points: Champion points should remain to be a tangential progression and will provide players with a much more specialized character. Players should earn additional CP by leveling. Players should receive 1 CP every other level. This would be in addition to their normal CP gain.
  
  This can be accomplished by granting a player 400K non-enlightened XP to the Champion Progression. If a player has 125K XP toward a Warrior CP, they will be awarded the Warrior CP and will then have 125K toward their next Thief CP. Their CP level would increase accordingly.

Current VR Rank Conversion
Many players who have characters past level 49 maxed would need to adjust their attribute points upon to conversion of VR Ranks to Level conversion. The following would have to occur:

Characters above level 49 would:

• Have their VR Rank converted to levels dependent on the total number of XP they have earned.
  
• Gain additional CP levels in accordance with their new level.

These changes would bring a player who previously gained VR 16 in line with a player who climbs to level 80. A player who has 8 VR 16 characters would automatically gain an additional 128 Champion levels. Some may view this as being too much but a player who takes 8 characters to level 80 would receive a total of around 380 Champion Points (assuming a player gets about 2 CP per 850 thousand XP).

Overview
Using this concept, players who are leveling past level 49 will experience a more rewarding leveling experience and not feel the daunting pressure that is currently felt with the Veteran Ranks. This will help make progression more interesting and more rewarding. This post-level 50 progression should be accompanied by additional skills and DLC for players to consume, but that is for another post.


Thoughts?

And in another thread I suggest the idea of perpetual leveling where ZOS would raise the level once per month, independent of DLC releases... Gotta' give 'em a dragon to chase.

Gidorick wrote: »

I had this concept a while ago and have been trying to understand why it would be a negative addition to the game because I know the suggestion will be unpopular. I have tried to address the issues that people generally have with raised level caps.

TL/DR
The core concept is that level cap be raised by 1 regularly and independent of DLC to encourage continued play. This concept is sort of unorthodox and has some justification that needs to be explained, so I ask that readers try to actually consider the concept I am suggesting before jumping to an automatic knee-jerk reaction of “no!” Thanks

Topics:

• Perpetual Progression
• Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
• Mitigation of Power Creep
• Upgrading End Level Gear
• PVP Leveling
• Scaled Content

Perpetual Progression
The core concept here is for ZOS to regularly increase the level cap by 1 level. This level increase would be an actual game mechanic that would provide players additional gameplay by giving them an additional level to gain on a regular basis. For the purpose of this concept I am going to use a 4 week (one month) interval for level increases.

Every month when the level cap increases, those who enjoy leaderboards and racing to level cap could participate in a leaderboard for the first 100 players to reach level cap. This leaderboard could be accompanied by 10 Cap-Ranking Buffs that would award players who reach level cap in the following order:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th-10th
• 11th-20th
• 21st-30th
• 31st-40th
• 41st-50th
• 51st-75th
• 75th-100th

The 1st person to reach level cap would receive the best buffs for that month with each subsequent tier being slightly less powerful. These buffs could also diminish over the month so that:

• Week 1: 100% buff effectiveness
• Week 2: 75% buff effectiveness
• Week 3: 50% buff effectiveness
• Week 4: 25% buff effectiveness

In addition to this ranking buff, every player that reaches level cap in the first 5 days could be given an enlightenment buff for the remainder of the month, making it beneficial for all players who wish to get to level cap for that month.

This would allow players to gain Champion points a little bit more quickly if they are the grindy type of player and would be beneficial to the overall community if my Champion System Catch-Up Mechanic concept is implemented.

This level increase would be independent of content releases and could be used in conjunction with content releases to dictate the level of the enemies within that content. Traditional MMO level cap increases accompany content and the level cap is increased dramatically, sometimes as much as 10 levels. With this concept, DLC could be released with a level range that exceeds the current level cap to give the DLC some longevity and even overlap some DLC levels.

If a DLC is released in a month which has a level cap of 85, ZOS could design the DLC so that the level of the enemies ranges from 85-89. This would mean that the DLC would be a viable zone for 5 months. Players could team up with other players to take down the higher level mobs in the zone or they could simply wait for the level cap to rise in the few months following the DLC release to be on the same level as the mobs.

This could create a sort of scheduling challenge for ZOS. If they must hard code each mob with a level as they are creating a zone, they would need to know exactly when the DLC was going to set the mobs to the correct level for the increase. However, ZOS could code the zone so that they simply need to set the starting level for the mobs and each mob group could level off that base number. It really depends on how the data is organized on ZOS’ end. With their commitment to having quarterly content this sort of DLC level scheduling may be easily accomplished.

For those that will say that “Raising the level cap is not content” I simply point out that while it is not additional content, it is additional gameplay.

Conjoined Concepts, levels 50-80
This concept would be most effective if VR Ranks are converted to regular levels as outlined in my Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept thread. In this concept, players would no longer gain Attribute Points and Skill points every single level. Progression rewards would be delivered more sparingly after level 50. This would make it so a player who is level 100 would only have 25 more attribute points than a player who is level 50. Players who are level 80 (VR 16) will have a total of 65 attribute points to distribute.

SP=Skill Point / AP=Attribute Point / CP=Champion Point / GR=Gear Requirement

In addition to this, I suggest ZOS also introduce design mechanics that would help mitigate some of the issues that arises with continued vertical progression.

Mitigation of Power Creep
To prevent players who are higher levels from becoming unstoppable (IE: level 100 players are twice as powerful as a level 50 players) I suggest that ZOS introduce a Sub-Attribute system at level 81 that would lock the total amount of attribute points that can be distributed between the three main attributes to 65. All attribute points a player earns beyond that can only be placed in a sub-attribute.

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

It’s important to keep in mind that if the level cap is raised as often as once per month and the reward distribution of my Vet Rank to Level conversion concept is in place, players would, over the course of one year, only receive:

• 6 sub-attribute points
• 6 skill points
• 6 additional Champion Points
• 6 new levels of gear

Upgrading End Level Gear
There has been some discussion regarding upgrading gear. I absolutely adore this idea. There would, however, have to be some limitations.

1. Gear can only be upgraded to your current level
2. Upgrading gear requires a fraction (1/4?) the materials of creating new gear
3. Once gear is upgraded it is BOUND to the character

Allowing player to upgrade the gear they are using, and not allowing them to sell that gear will allow players to more quickly move from one gear level to another, but will also keep the need for players to craft and sell high level gear that they craft intact. When upgrading the level of gear the gear’s quality should lower by one level.

This upgrading mechanic could be available only to master crafters and could only be available to gear of level 50 or greater. Perhaps this could even be a skill added to the different crafting abilities.

PVP Leveling
One of the issues with raising the level cap is pressuring PVP players to do something other than PVP. They are in the thick of battle and if the level cap raises and they don’t run to the new content, run through the new content to raise their level, they will soon find themselves fighting a losing battle against those that did take the time to level up. There are a couple of things that can be done about this to allow these players to play as they want to play.

First, the incremental level increases proposed in this concept wouldn’t offer a player enough of an advantage to make them instantly more competitive in PVP. A player who is level 94 fighting against a player who is level 95 may only have a 10 point difference in Weapon Damage when the overall damage is in the thousands.

Second, PVP XP should be more than enough so that a player who primarily plays PVP can level up the one level by the time the next level comes around. In fact, since cap would be raised only one level, most players would be able to continue whatever it is they are doing and, as long as they are playing regularly, and they would be able to reach the next cap.

Scaled Content
Lastly, we come to Scaled Content. This topic is in-line with my concept to scale players down to any zone using the Battle Level toggle.

With Battle Leveling off, players will simply perform at their level they actually are. With Battle Leveling turned on, they will scale to the zone. This is important for this concept of continued progression because it creates a viable gameplay solution to all players, no matter where they wish to play or what level they currently are.

If a player really, truly enjoys killing werewolves in Glenumbra, they are more than welcome to remain Battle Leveled to Glenumbra and kill hundreds of werewolves to earn that month’s level, but it would be more advantageous to travel to higher level zones if they wanted to be competitive with their leveling.

As it pertains to new zones, ZOS could allow zones that are not part of the main quest lines (Craglorn being the first, and currently only, zone) to Battle level lower players to the minimum level of that Zone. So, when a Zone is released encompassing levels 85-89 and the current level cap is 87, any player lower than 85 will be leveled to 85 so they are viable in that zone. These players will receive scaled XP so they will be able to level up using these zones.

Players could even use Battle Leveling to group with their higher level friends. Battle leveling should level all players in a group to the group leader. This would allow players to level to whatever level the group leader is, down or up.

In the Caldwelld’s Redux thread I suggest that players earn an independent set of levels as they run through Caldwell’s Silver and Gold. These independent levels are gained in conjunction with their main levels and are used to determine Battle Leveling and XP rewards. Earning XP and leveling in a zone while battle leveled would increase the player’s zone-level as well as their main level.

To illustrate this let’s suppose we have released 6 DLCs with the following level ranges:

• Blackwood:90-94
• Southern Marsh: 95-99
• The Pale: 103-106
• Quin-rawl: 107-110
• Solstheim: 115-119
• Sunforge: 118-122

A player joins ESO and decides to dabble in each zone when they reach level 10. After a few weeks they have achieved a bit in each DLC Zone and now have the following zone-levels:

• Blackwood: Zone-Level 3 (Battle Level 92)
• Southern Marsh: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 96)
• The Pale: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 104)
• Quin-rawl: Zone-Level 4 (Battle Level 110)
• Solstheim: Zone-Level 2 (Battle Level 116)
• Sunforge: Zone-Level 5 (Battle Level 120)

A player who has battle leveled though a zone, but is still a lower level than their zone-level can continue to play in that zone and earn XP for their regular level at the leveled rate. As soon as their main level is greater than their zone-level the battle leveling works in reverse and they are scaled down to zone-max level +1 and no longer receive leveled XP.

Since the player has achieved 12 zone-levels and have been receiving scaled XP they are now level 22 and have out-leveled their main story zone by 7 levels. If the player wishes, they can remain Battle Leveled and their level will be scaled back down to their main story zone per the mechanics outlined in my Zone Scaling concept thread. Or they can remain at their current level and feel the soft skulls of their enemies give way to the mighty power of their boot.

This would give many players the freedom of choice when playing and would allow players to literally play however they wish to play. ZOS could decide to implement zone levels across the board for all zones, main story and DLC in order to facilitate the freedom of play. The concept would work either way.

Overview & Wrap-up
If you’ve stuck with me this long, I thank you. This concept is much more than simply adding levels for the sake of adding levels. The regular addition of levels would truly become a gameplay mechanic that could inform the progression of ESO while offering regular challenges to players who enjoy those types of game mechanics. With the scaling mechanics in place, players will be able to enjoy content no matter what their level and content will continue to be viable once they have completed the DLC for further playthroughs.

As many of us do, I wish for Tamriel to be open and available to all players and for all players to continually have the opportunity to play how they want to play.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on how this concept can be improved or why this concept wouldn't work. Please be specific in your feedback.

Now, I agree the whole leveling concept might be a bit too much but the core concept of giving players levels to gain and breaking up post level 80 leveling into more grandular progressing by leveling individual attributes instead of the 3 main attributes is pretty sound.

ZOS' new direction turns ESO into more of an Action Adventure Game than a Role Playing Game.

It really saddens me to see an Elder Scrolls game castrated in such a way.