Templar Thaumaturge Sweep Bug - Fix coming for Live

Slayyer-AUS · April 2016

Hi world first level 50 horse here

Nifty2g · April 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I'm lolling at some of the people in this thread, how can you even disagree lmao it's a channeled ability doing damage over a select amount of time. By definition that is a DoT. You can't argue it

By definition Surprise Attack is a DoT. I'm producing damage over a period of time. I guess Surprise Attack needs to scale off of Thurmaturge as well according to this definition. You can't argue it.

Serious question, have you ever studied at a tertiary level, college or university which ever it is called where you are from?

Now do you understand how to write an essay and what goes into essays, you should know how the world works by now that your opinion means nothing against a fact in an argument, because your opinion can't change the fact alone.

Now that I'm done there, let me cite myself and throw an actual argument your way.

Puncturing Sweep

So to summarize; Puncturing Sweep strikes enemies in front of you with a cone attack 4 times over the channel time of 1.1 Seconds - by game mechanics you can not stop this animation freely halfway between the cast, it sort of prevents you from doing so and bugs out, meaning it wasn't meant to be interrupted. An example of Puncturing Sweeps in game as shown;

Now moving on, lets grab some proper sources to back myself up on what a DoT is, and to make it formal I'm going to cite it for you.

Abbreviated as DOT, in video and computer games, damage over time means the damage on a human or computer player character that is distributed over a period of time

webopedia.com/TERM/D/damage_over_time.html

Damage over time (DoT) is a term used to describe a single spell or attack which deals full damage not instantly but over a period of time, dealing a portion of its total damage at regular intervals. The damage is often done every second or every half-second, and each instant in which it is dealt is called a "tick."

leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_over_time

Damage Over Time is a common Video Game mechanic where, instead of sustaining one-time sums of damage from one attack at a time, a unit receives a negative status that inflicts a small amount of damage at regular intervals, independent of any other factors or further attacks against them

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DamageOverTime

Damage Over Time, (also known as DOT), is a spell that causes damage multiple times at a set interval over its duration. Most damage over time is dealt per second, but some spells will deal their damage at a different rate. While some values may be expressed per second, the damage may actually be dealt in smaller instances over shorter periods of time. This can cause a range of different interactions within the game.

wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Damage_Over_Time

So to end the argument, by definition Puncturing Sweeps is a Damage over Timer as it deals damage per strike over a select amount of time intervals.

Before I even continue the argument I'm just going to post a picture of Surprise Attack

Cast Time: Instant

Please note that double dipping our champion points doesn't give us a huge increase to DPS or make us OP, we miss out A LOT on Spell Erosion and Elfborn. I have to put 146 out of my 167 Champion Points into Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to pull competitive DPS. I lose a lot of base damage not being able to get points into Spell Erosion and Elfborn. And yes this is most effective as per @Asayres guide and @hedna123b14_ESO
I'll even throw a reference in there for you to read through.
tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-guide-to-magicka-templar-trial4-man-dps-thiefs-guild/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit#gid=599371859

code65536 · April 2016

Calling Surprise Attack a DoT is nonsense.

But it's hard to deny that channeled abilities are in a kind of a gray area.

Instant damage: You actively strike an enemy.
Channeled damage: You actively strike an enemy multiple times over X seconds.
Traditional DoT: You apply a status effect on an enemy or a ground effect that passively does damage to the enemy over X seconds.

It's neither intuitive nor clear to most players whether a channeled ability is a DoT like Cripple or Elemental Blockade or if it's just multiple hits of instant damage. It's really a damage type of its own.

Either they need to communicate this clearly (i.e., explicitly specify on the tooltip that this damage is considered a DoT by game mechanics), or they need to remove this less-than-intuitive double-dipping (while adjusting upward the base damage to compensate).

Ariades_swe · April 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

I am trying to be patient with you, but you seem dead-set on making a fool of yourself. As people have explained numerous times, a DOT is cast once and deals damage in increments over a set period of time. A non dot is cast once and deals all of its damage at once. DW heavy attack is 2 hits at the same time. Arguing that spamming a single target non-dot attack is a dot because of the space-time continuum is... I do not have words for that.
What exactly are you aiming for here? To me it seems that you want RD/jabs nerfed as your ultimate ulterior goal.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

RD and puncturing sweeps/jabs are going to become so grossly overpowered once you can put 100 points into elemental expert and thaumaturge; that ZOS is going to nerf it hard in order to put it in line with other damaging abilities, and you know who's going to suffer? New players. Because without 100 points each passive, it will be a pathetic skill; once they hit you hard with that nerf.

Better buff us nbs first.
Incap strike is worthless on test and stealth is broken.
Stam nbs will be dead in DB. Stam nbs been the weakest class since retail.

EgoRush · April 2016

I'm glad this is getting fixed. It's not a case of Templars becoming overpowered - even post cap it won't add a huge amount of damage double-dipping. Also, we have higher risk using our class spam attack due to it being a channel compared to a DK whip, for example. We can't block cast Sweeps and we can be interrupted. Allowing such a skill to double-dip is in line with how ZOS think: risk versus reward. That's the whole reason staves give less spell damage than DW - higher risk being up close and personal, therefore a higher reward is given.

Firerock2 · April 2016

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

I am trying to be patient with you, but you seem dead-set on making a fool of yourself. As people have explained numerous times, a DOT is cast once and deals damage in increments over a set period of time. A non dot is cast once and deals all of its damage at once. DW heavy attack is 2 hits at the same time. Arguing that spamming a single target non-dot attack is a dot because of the space-time continuum is... I do not have words for that.
What exactly are you aiming for here? To me it seems that you want RD/jabs nerfed as your ultimate ulterior goal.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

RD and puncturing sweeps/jabs are going to become so grossly overpowered once you can put 100 points into elemental expert and thaumaturge; that ZOS is going to nerf it hard in order to put it in line with other damaging abilities, and you know who's going to suffer? New players. Because without 100 points each passive, it will be a pathetic skill; once they hit you hard with that nerf.

Better buff us nbs first.
Incap strike is worthless on test and stealth is broken.
Stam nbs will be dead in DB. Stam nbs been the weakest class since retail.

You're a funny guy.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Calling Surprise Attack a DoT is nonsense.

But it's hard to deny that channeled abilities are in a kind of a gray area.
Instant damage: You actively strike an enemy.

Channeled damage: You actively strike an enemy multiple times over X seconds.

Traditional DoT: You apply a status effect on an enemy or a ground effect that passively does damage to the enemy over X seconds.

It's neither intuitive nor clear to most players whether a channeled ability is a DoT like Cripple or Elemental Blockade or if it's just multiple hits of instant damage. It's really a damage type of its own.

Either they need to communicate this clearly (i.e., explicitly specify on the tooltip that this damage is considered a DoT by game mechanics), or they need to remove this less-than-intuitive double-dipping (while adjusting upward the base damage to compensate).

This is accurate and a really good point.
Proposal: Differentiate the two forms of DoT

Active DoT: A Primary long term effect that works in the foreground.
Passive DoT: a secondary long term effect that works in the background.
Background effects do not impede on gameplay.

That means poisoned, burning etc status effect would be classed as secondary effects and thus Passive DoTs.
Puncturting sweeps and other channelled attack would be classed as Active DoTs.

The problem then becomes......how does/should that affect all combat calc, passive and champion skills ?

Nifty2g · April 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Calling Surprise Attack a DoT is nonsense.

But it's hard to deny that channeled abilities are in a kind of a gray area.
Instant damage: You actively strike an enemy.

Channeled damage: You actively strike an enemy multiple times over X seconds.

Traditional DoT: You apply a status effect on an enemy or a ground effect that passively does damage to the enemy over X seconds.

It's neither intuitive nor clear to most players whether a channeled ability is a DoT like Cripple or Elemental Blockade or if it's just multiple hits of instant damage. It's really a damage type of its own.

Either they need to communicate this clearly (i.e., explicitly specify on the tooltip that this damage is considered a DoT by game mechanics), or they need to remove this less-than-intuitive double-dipping (while adjusting upward the base damage to compensate).

This is accurate and a really good point.
Proposal: Differentiate the two forms of DoT

Active DoT: A Primary long term effect that works in the foreground.
Passive DoT: a secondary long term effect that works in the background.

That means poisoned, burning ect status effect would be classed as secondary effects and thus Passive DoTs.
Puncturting sweeps and other channelled attack woudl eb classed as Active DoTs.

The problem then becomes......how does/should that affect all combat calc, passive and champion skills ?

this only affects templars, and templar dps really isn't that high.
is there really a point to go through so much effort and money just for that? i don't believe so

I don't even think zos should try and reimagine and create new form of "dots" from the original meaning

EgoRush · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Calling Surprise Attack a DoT is nonsense.

But it's hard to deny that channeled abilities are in a kind of a gray area.
Instant damage: You actively strike an enemy.

Channeled damage: You actively strike an enemy multiple times over X seconds.

Traditional DoT: You apply a status effect on an enemy or a ground effect that passively does damage to the enemy over X seconds.

It's neither intuitive nor clear to most players whether a channeled ability is a DoT like Cripple or Elemental Blockade or if it's just multiple hits of instant damage. It's really a damage type of its own.

Either they need to communicate this clearly (i.e., explicitly specify on the tooltip that this damage is considered a DoT by game mechanics), or they need to remove this less-than-intuitive double-dipping (while adjusting upward the base damage to compensate).

This is accurate and a really good point.
Proposal: Differentiate the two forms of DoT

Active DoT: A Primary long term effect that works in the foreground.
Passive DoT: a secondary long term effect that works in the background.

That means poisoned, burning ect status effect would be classed as secondary effects and thus Passive DoTs.
Puncturting sweeps and other channelled attack woudl eb classed as Active DoTs.

The problem then becomes......how does/should that affect all combat calc, passive and champion skills ?

this only affects templars, and templar dps really isn't that high.
is there really a point to go through so much effort and money just for that? i don't believe so

I don't even think zos should try and reimagine and create new form of "dots" from the original meaning

Agreed. And Wrobel has confirmed it was a bug and will be fixed. Case solved

code65536 · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Calling Surprise Attack a DoT is nonsense.

But it's hard to deny that channeled abilities are in a kind of a gray area.
Instant damage: You actively strike an enemy.

Channeled damage: You actively strike an enemy multiple times over X seconds.

Traditional DoT: You apply a status effect on an enemy or a ground effect that passively does damage to the enemy over X seconds.

It's neither intuitive nor clear to most players whether a channeled ability is a DoT like Cripple or Elemental Blockade or if it's just multiple hits of instant damage. It's really a damage type of its own.

Either they need to communicate this clearly (i.e., explicitly specify on the tooltip that this damage is considered a DoT by game mechanics), or they need to remove this less-than-intuitive double-dipping (while adjusting upward the base damage to compensate).

This is accurate and a really good point.
Proposal: Differentiate the two forms of DoT

Active DoT: A Primary long term effect that works in the foreground.
Passive DoT: a secondary long term effect that works in the background.

That means poisoned, burning ect status effect would be classed as secondary effects and thus Passive DoTs.
Puncturting sweeps and other channelled attack woudl eb classed as Active DoTs.

The problem then becomes......how does/should that affect all combat calc, passive and champion skills ?

this only affects templars, and templar dps really isn't that high.
is there really a point to go through so much effort and money just for that? i don't believe so

I don't even think zos should try and reimagine and create new form of "dots" from the original meaning

And any stamina user's Flurry. In any case, it's easier to just clarify this in-game so that people know that Flurry, Radiant, and Jabs benefit from Thaumaturge and will proc Skoria than to redo the system. However they do it, though, they do need to do something about this ambiguous/unintuitive mechanic because I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the players have no idea that something like Flurry is a DoT. (And drawing clear borders around what is and isn't a DoT would also eliminate pointless forum arguments about what a DoT is.)

Ariades_swe · April 2016

Firerock2 wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

I am trying to be patient with you, but you seem dead-set on making a fool of yourself. As people have explained numerous times, a DOT is cast once and deals damage in increments over a set period of time. A non dot is cast once and deals all of its damage at once. DW heavy attack is 2 hits at the same time. Arguing that spamming a single target non-dot attack is a dot because of the space-time continuum is... I do not have words for that.
What exactly are you aiming for here? To me it seems that you want RD/jabs nerfed as your ultimate ulterior goal.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

RD and puncturing sweeps/jabs are going to become so grossly overpowered once you can put 100 points into elemental expert and thaumaturge; that ZOS is going to nerf it hard in order to put it in line with other damaging abilities, and you know who's going to suffer? New players. Because without 100 points each passive, it will be a pathetic skill; once they hit you hard with that nerf.

Better buff us nbs first.
Incap strike is worthless on test and stealth is broken.
Stam nbs will be dead in DB. Stam nbs been the weakest class since retail.

You're a funny guy.

Youre a bit dense are you?

cazlonb16_ESO · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

However they do it, though, they do need to do something about this ambiguous/unintuitive mechanic because I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the players have no idea that something like Flurry is a DoT. (And drawing clear borders around what is and isn't a DoT would also eliminate pointless forum arguments about what a DoT is.)

It looks to me like the categorization of all sorts of combat stuff was a total mess in the release version of the game already and the multiple sweeping combat reviews certainly didn't help. Every time some mechanics change, this type of issues keeps cropping up.

At this point a proper cleanup is probably impossible with the ressources available to the combat team.

willymchilybily · April 2016

To be honest the WORST offender for scaling off thermatage when it shouldnt (in my opinion) is full DW heavy Attacks. it seems like the game sees anything that hits more than once for one button press as a DOT. This should not be the case, but whilst it is i'll exploit it. So i hope this change at least addressed this?? any one on PTS able to test?

this did have to change but i agree with the thread i would consider puncturing sweeps and flurry as of equal footing and both should be treated equally imo

In PVP having a move buffed by thermatage, mighty, and heavy attack CPs, is asking for one shots.

Equally having an execute that scales up from 50% target health being buffed by two sets of champion point and cannot be dodged is dangerous too.

My DK was getting the equivalent of 60k to 70k fully charged heavy attacks against undead NPCs (IC) from stealth (as an orc with non optimal gear). imagine this on a kahjit stamblade who can follow up with an instant cast surprise attack. then cloak away and repeat.

Alcast · April 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Amen to that, was about to unistall this game and set my computer on fire.

amen

Nifty2g · May 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@Wrobel

2 Patches in and there is no fix for this, it isn't even acknowledged as a known issue. Is this going to get fixed or be one of those long lasting bugs that will just be shoved aside until next major update?

Tanis-Stormbinder · May 2016

Please fix this before live!

Lyar09 · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

You are saying we should eat an unmitigated nerf now because of the small possibility of a nerf in the future?
I just want to make sure I understand your angle here.

2 reasons:

1) it will become way to powerful once we acquire enough CP to increase the strength of the Templar's main attacks by 50%.

2) Any damage reduction done that doesn't involve re-classifying as a non-DoT will render it useless to those without an adequate amount of CP.

It's about it's current performance but more importantly it's about its future performance.

are you serious? As you have numerously referenced using surprise attack, I'm going to assume you play nightblade. In the same time as a channeled jab, you can light attack cancel 2 or more surprise attacks and do an extraordinary amount of more damage than jabs. Get out of here with your illogical ideology of what is considered a DoT and not. Wrobel, who controls combat systems and mechanics has said it is a DoT. Your argument is null and irrelevant. Go complain about how OP your nightblade is in another thread

susmitds · May 2016

Lyar09 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

You are saying we should eat an unmitigated nerf now because of the small possibility of a nerf in the future?
I just want to make sure I understand your angle here.

2 reasons:

1) it will become way to powerful once we acquire enough CP to increase the strength of the Templar's main attacks by 50%.

2) Any damage reduction done that doesn't involve re-classifying as a non-DoT will render it useless to those without an adequate amount of CP.

It's about it's current performance but more importantly it's about its future performance.

are you serious? As you have numerously referenced using surprise attack, I'm going to assume you play nightblade. In the same time as a channeled jab, you can light attack cancel 2 or more surprise attacks and do an extraordinary amount of more damage than jabs. Get out of here with your illogical ideology of what is considered a DoT and not. Wrobel, who controls combat systems and mechanics has said it is a DoT. Your argument is null and irrelevant. Go complain about how OP your nightblade is in another thread

It is no longer a DoT in PTS.

Nifty2g · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

You are saying we should eat an unmitigated nerf now because of the small possibility of a nerf in the future?
I just want to make sure I understand your angle here.

2 reasons:

1) it will become way to powerful once we acquire enough CP to increase the strength of the Templar's main attacks by 50%.

2) Any damage reduction done that doesn't involve re-classifying as a non-DoT will render it useless to those without an adequate amount of CP.

It's about it's current performance but more importantly it's about its future performance.

are you serious? As you have numerously referenced using surprise attack, I'm going to assume you play nightblade. In the same time as a channeled jab, you can light attack cancel 2 or more surprise attacks and do an extraordinary amount of more damage than jabs. Get out of here with your illogical ideology of what is considered a DoT and not. Wrobel, who controls combat systems and mechanics has said it is a DoT. Your argument is null and irrelevant. Go complain about how OP your nightblade is in another thread

It is no longer a DoT in PTS.

Read his post in here, he confirmed it is a bug and should be considered a DoT considering Rapid Strikes IS getting buffs from Thaumaturge and Sweeps is not.
This was reported on PTS launch and is STILL NOT FIXED

If they changed their minds, then change all the other abilities too, if they decide to not fix it and ignore it, then I've lost all faith in this company because they are leaving a class breaking skill in the game. I would have though they would moved away from that after the Khajiit Critical being broken

Nifty2g · May 2016

May as well keep tagging them till we get a response @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
If you leave this alone you will *** up a whole class.

KenaPKK · May 2016

It was also amplifying Wrecking Blow and Lava Whip at one point. I haven't tried it out with my mageblade stuff, but how much you wanna bet my Swallows are technically "dots?"

Nifty2g · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

It was also amplifying Wrecking Blow and Lava Whip at one point. I haven't tried it out with my mageblade stuff, but how much you wanna bet my Swallows are technically "dots?"

I think they corrected Thaum to buff what it should be buffing by now

I just love the fact how it works on Rapid Strikes but not Sweeps, and we haven't been notified of any updates or it being a known issue anymore. I can just see this being pushed back to the next major update.

GoodOlPinkly · May 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel any word for us please?

Tanis-Stormbinder · May 2016

It's not looking good, hope we can an update on this issue soon.

Khaos_Bane · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

You are saying we should eat an unmitigated nerf now because of the small possibility of a nerf in the future?
I just want to make sure I understand your angle here.

2 reasons:

1) it will become way to powerful once we acquire enough CP to increase the strength of the Templar's main attacks by 50%.

2) Any damage reduction done that doesn't involve re-classifying as a non-DoT will render it useless to those without an adequate amount of CP.

It's about it's current performance but more importantly it's about its future performance.

are you serious? As you have numerously referenced using surprise attack, I'm going to assume you play nightblade. In the same time as a channeled jab, you can light attack cancel 2 or more surprise attacks and do an extraordinary amount of more damage than jabs. Get out of here with your illogical ideology of what is considered a DoT and not. Wrobel, who controls combat systems and mechanics has said it is a DoT. Your argument is null and irrelevant. Go complain about how OP your nightblade is in another thread

It is no longer a DoT in PTS.

You should really read the thread.

Robbmrp · May 2016

ginoboehm wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Yes this is a bug, we're working on a fix now. Thaumaturge should be increasing the damage of Puncturing Strikes and its morphs.

awesome! can you please clarify what is and what isn't a dot.
thank you!

Strikes isn't a DoT because in order to get the damage from each strike you have to keep the enemy targeted. If you lose the target the strikes stop hitting. If it were setup as a DoT, you would only have to be hit once and they could run away while you continue to take damage from it.

EgoRush · May 2016

Just to confuse people even more, I hear that Radiant Oppression counts as a DoT when considering Thaumaturge and Valkyn usage, but (despite being a single target DoT) does not benefit from the Maelstrom dagger/axe Rapid Strikes buff to spell/weapon damage.

What is a DoT? When is a channeled ability not a DoT? There's too much inconsistency with abilities in this game.

ZOS_GinaBruno · May 2016

As a quick update, this is still being worked on and we haven't forgotten about it! It likely won't be fixed in next week's PTS incremental patch, but we do want to address it before Dark Brotherhood goes live.

AOECAPS · May 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As a quick update, this is still being worked on and we haven't forgotten about it! It likely won't be fixed in next week's PTS incremental patch, but we do want to address it before Dark Brotherhood goes live.

Wanting to and doing so are entirely different things please fix this. Templars finally feel competitive across pvp pve etc

GoodOlPinkly · May 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As a quick update, this is still being worked on and we haven't forgotten about it! It likely won't be fixed in next week's PTS incremental patch, but we do want to address it before Dark Brotherhood goes live.

Thank you for replying, but seriously why is Jabs the only move effected??