Templar Thaumaturge Sweep Bug - Fix coming for Live

Brrrofski

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

And remember, to my knowledge, or I havent figured out how you cant break the attack once started. It has to go through all its strikes. If someone has found a way to say break after first hit let me know.

Chillic

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

And if you press that button and then turn around? No DoT; however, a true DoT would remain.

Destyran

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Puncturing Sweep isn't a DOT, it's 4 consecutive attacks from one skill. Radiant Destruction is a DOT however and should be affected by Thaumaturge.

So why does rapid strikes get buffed damage?

Neoauspex

Puncturing Sweeps would be several strikes if you hit the button for every strike. But you don't, you hit the button once to activate and it does 4 ticks of damage over 1.3 seconds to anything in the area of effect.

AfkNinja

Chillic wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

And if you press that button and then turn around? No DoT; however, a true DoT would remain.

I can stop this argument right here.

Tham works on Flurry. If Flurry is a DOT Jabs/Sweeps is a DOT. Problem solved. Give tham scaling back to Jabs.

Destyran

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

Ok so we get to be interupted on every move because they are all channeled? So you press the button and you channel damage over time. Maybe they should just give us all 4 strikes overlapped so we have 1 20-25k jab?

Chillic

AfkNinja wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

And if you press that button and then turn around? No DoT; however, a true DoT would remain.

I can stop this argument right here.

Tham works on Flurry. If Flurry is a DOT Jabs/Sweeps is a DOT. Problem solved. Give tham scaling back to Jabs.

I wouldn't call flurry a DoT either, but I'm not the devs, and not even trying to argue, just pointing out the possibility and how DoTs are handled in several other games. If each attack has a chance to proc something like the weapon enchant, DoTs should not count towards that.

Chillic

Destyran wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

Ok so we get to be interupted on every move because they are all channeled? So you press the button and you channel damage over time. Maybe they should just give us all 4 strikes overlapped so we have 1 20-25k jab?

***, I'm down for that

danno8

Chillic wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

And if you press that button and then turn around? No DoT; however, a true DoT would remain.

Unlike other games, ESO does not and has not ever differentiated between instant cast DoT's (like Burning Breath) that let you do other things while they tick, and channeled DoTs (like Puncturing Sweep) that require you maintain a locked animation for the duration.

The skills they listed as examples (proxy etc...) are different in that they are technically back-loaded instant damage skills, which they are now making a distinction as NOT DoT's.

Bottom line, if it works for RD and it works for Flurry then it should absolutely work for PS. In this game, channeled skills are the most risky by far to use and deserve this boost, or if not this boost, they should get there own bonuses elsewhere.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

FIX

Xjcon

Does sweeps show up as orange damage in the ESO floating text? I know flurry does. From what I can tell DoT damage is the orange color.

AfkNinja

danno8 wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

And if you press that button and then turn around? No DoT; however, a true DoT would remain.

Unlike other games, ESO does not and has not ever differentiated between instant cast DoT's (like Burning Breath) that let you do other things while they tick, and channeled DoTs (like Puncturing Sweep) that require you maintain a locked animation for the duration.

The skills they listed as examples (proxy etc...) are different in that they are technically back-loaded instant damage skills, which they are now making a distinction as NOT DoT's.

Bottom line, if it works for RD and it works for Flurry then it should absolutely work for PS. In this game, channeled skills are the most risky by far to use and deserve this boost, or if not this boost, they should get there own bonuses elsewhere.

This. +1 awesome.

Solinur

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

What you define a strike is just an animation effect. Technically Flurry, Raidant Destruction and Sweeps are the same. You activate the Skill and several hits occur in given time intervals. The diffrence to a classical dot like e.g. Vampires Bane is, that they are channeled abilities. This means you can't do another skill or block while you are casting (which is actually the main weakness of channeled abilities especially when blocks are required).

What we've seen so far in the game from sets like Valkyn Skoria which procs of DoTs is that channeled abilities or procs like Burning Light count as dots. Also they can't get empowered, which is probably supposed to work on all hits which are not Dot's.

Chillic

danno8 wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

You press a button once and it does damage over time. Yes, it's a dot.

And if you press that button and then turn around? No DoT; however, a true DoT would remain.

Unlike other games, ESO does not and has not ever differentiated between instant cast DoT's (like Burning Breath) that let you do other things while they tick, and channeled DoTs (like Puncturing Sweep) that require you maintain a locked animation for the duration.

The skills they listed as examples (proxy etc...) are different in that they are technically back-loaded instant damage skills, which they are now making a distinction as NOT DoT's.

Bottom line, if it works for RD and it works for Flurry then it should absolutely work for PS. In this game, channeled skills are the most risky by far to use and deserve this boost, or if not this boost, they should get there own bonuses elsewhere.

Oh I completely agree that if flurry or any skill similar is benefitting from tham, jabs should too. I didn't even know flurry benefitted from tham. Like I said, I've never looked at a DoT as a channel of multiple attacks and never played any other ES games.

RinaldoGandolphi

I feel your pain @Nifty2g its really ridiculous this is happening

its also ridiclious that the Champion System is still so bugged.

No skill should ever be able to doube dip on damage, and no skill should ever be double negated on damage either.

in other words Thaumuturge and Thick skinned just need to be removed from the Champion System all together and replaced with something else.

that way

Magic, Fire, Frost, and Shock Damage boosted by Elemental Expert
Magic, Fire, Frist, and Shock Damage countered by Elemental Defender

Poison, Disease,and Physical Damage boosted by Mighty
Poison, Disease, and Physical Damage countered by Hardy

they just need to keep things simple. Even though it was probably a bug that Jabs could double dip, what else did Templars have? They needed this bug to compete DPS wise so i totally understand your position. They just need to can Thaumturge and Thick Skinned all together, increase the base damage of Sweeps/Jabs to make things right, and call it a day.

its these buggy complications that are making things a major pain for them to normalize or standardize on anything....its literally becomes a whole new game every update and i don't think thats healthy for the longevity of the game.

danno8

Oh and I can confirm Thaumaturge IS increasing RD damage, although the tooltip does not seem to change.

ginoboehm

@ZOS_GinaBruno is that intended? can you explain what a dot in this game is? Do you know? is flurry , jabs and radiant a dot?
those things are way more important than a sound bug when you use some role playing sword to kill a npc. can you once not release a patch note without having everybody guessing for weeks while having to retest everything? i know you couldn't care less about the competitive crowd but do you have to always make it that hard for us? i don't know why we are less important than smb arguing about the look of female armor.

AfkNinja

Solinur wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

What you define a strike is just an animation effect. Technically Flurry, Raidant Destruction and Sweeps are the same. You activate the Skill and several hits occur in given time intervals. The diffrence to a classical dot like e.g. Vampires Bane is, that they are channeled abilities. This means you can't do another skill or block while you are casting (which is actually the main weakness of channeled abilities especially when blocks are required).

What we've seen so far in the game especially from sets like Valkyn Skoria which procs of DoTs is that channeled abilities or procs like Burning Light count as dots. Especially since they can't get empowered, which is probably supposed to work on all hits which are not Dot's.

The fact that Jabs doesn't benefit from Empower and requires you to do nothing else while using it is reason enough to let Tham work on it.

Daymond

Easy way to see if something is counted as a dot by the game. Have a sorc cast Rune Cage, rune prison morph, and attack the rune caged target if the attack does not break rune cage with the attack it is a dot. Flurry does not break rune cage also does not proc crit surge so flurry is a dot.

danno8

Wandering around Cyro on PTS I went ahead and took a few resources. Between the change to silence not being able to be broken, Thaumaturge not affecting Sweeps, and Sweeps heal bug being fixed (which was fair, although I had no idea it was present) there were several times I was very close to death.

Still doable of course, but had to be much more careful.

Chillic

danno8 wrote: »

Wandering around Cyro on PTS I went ahead and took a few resources. Between the change to silence not being able to be broken, Thaumaturge not affecting Sweeps, and Sweeps heal bug being fixed (which was fair, although I had no idea it was present) there were several times I was very close to death.

Still doable of course, but had to be much more careful.

Silence can still be purged though, right? Purge is going to be huge out there, more than ever cause some of the poisons are insane. I went through and learned them all and there are a few with 4 effects.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Would be nice to get some feed back from Zos on this

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

its these buggy complications that are making things a major pain for them to normalize or standardize on anything....its literally becomes a whole new game every update and i don't think thats healthy for the longevity of the game.

This is disappointingly true. If this PTS goes live as it is, it will be the 4th time I have stepped away from this game. Can't get into it if all I see is them toying around with core mechanics for 2yrs after release. What these classes are to be should of been worked out by now and we should be seeing new structures built on that foundation. I don't see Spell Crafting coming and Weapons Ultimates, that is still way over their head.

Sugaroverdose

blabafat wrote: »

Interested to see how or if ZOS responds.

"we are insanely happy that you have this problem, don't be angry everything is fine"

Joy_Division

There is no way Rapid Strikes and Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps should be mechanically different when it comes to "is it a DoT?"

In general, I am incline to think that any skill that does not have it's damage up front and instantly delivered upon pressing a button is a DoT. A skill that has its damage applied in intervals from pressing a button would most certainly seem to me a DoT.

hedna123b14_ESO

Chillic wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So if a bug that allows you to double dip champion points on abilities that are obviously not DoTs is fixed you're leaving the game? Good thing you're not a fan of the Battle Axe.

it IS a dot

I always looked at a DoT as one attack/strike, cause damage over time. Isn't puncturing sweeps several strikes? That's the only way it would make sense anyway.

DoT is damage over time....sweeps does this damage over time.

staracino_ESO

Here we are again... Templars begging and pleading for the devs to just keep the status quo with our core abilities. Reminds me of 3 months ago.

Gilliamtherogue

This is disappointing to see happen, I truly hope this is a bug that Sweeps is not being affected by Thaumaturge, seeing that is has always been treated as one in game. To the people saying it's not a DoT, all channeled effects in this game are considered DoT effects since they do not deal all of their damage in one single hit. There is no argument there, regardless of animations or not.

On top of this the people saying that no ability should double dip, the fact is that the CP system has a perfect counter balance system in place at the moment. For each offensive gain there is a defensive counter part. Heavy /Med/Light armor focus negates Erosion/Piercing, Hardy/Elemental Defender counter Mighty/Elemental Expert, Thaumaturge is countered by Thick Skinned, and Resilient counters Elfborn/Precise Strikes. Literally every node (except for unlocked passives at the 10, 30, 75, and 120 marks) minus resource management has a counter to what it offers. This is perfectly balanced.

I honestly believe this to be a bug, because templars have always been on the lower end of the spectrum with DPS capabilities, since their kit revolves around channeled spells, which incur something called a low "skill ceiling". Being bound to burst damage (Wrecking Blow, Dark Flare, and Snipe all suffer from this) means damage output is bottle necked into a rigid output of attacks. Sweeps finally was able to break this mold and bring Templars a little closer to other classes, while still not reaching their numbers (templars have never been top DPS). This is made up for the fact that their kit excels at other things such as self healing and defensive capabilities, as well as group utility. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom please look into this bug, coming from a non templar main even I can see this is a major issue. If you have contrary beliefs to these principals, PLEASE state them in patch notes and give us insights into why you make these changes, if they are in fact intended.

danno8

Chillic wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Wandering around Cyro on PTS I went ahead and took a few resources. Between the change to silence not being able to be broken, Thaumaturge not affecting Sweeps, and Sweeps heal bug being fixed (which was fair, although I had no idea it was present) there were several times I was very close to death.

Still doable of course, but had to be much more careful.

Silence can still be purged though, right? Purge is going to be huge out there, more than ever cause some of the poisons are insane. I went through and learned them all and there are a few with 4 effects.

When I am silenced, my whole bar is greyed out, including Purifying Ritual. I would assume Purge would be also, since it is magicka based.