Alternatives to nerfing vWGT, vICP and vCOA

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

Zarfak wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

My $.02:

- Better tutorials to explain certain mechanics (stay out of the red, block heavy attacks, interrupt charged attacks, etc.);
- Better death recaps (e.g. "It seems you've died to the Planar's DoT. Try to close the pinion faster next time");
- Have annoying bystander NPCs shouting tips at the players (e.g. "Throw some bombs at those flesh atronachs!");
- Introduce in-game voice communication for PC/Mac (some people still refuse to get TS, plus you need them to connect to your server, etc. With in-game comms, everyone can at least listen to other players).

Toss the boogers

Ha! We always say, "throw snot!"

It actually wasnt until the recent change that I even knew about this mechanic. I always just did a stack and burn on that boss. A welcomed change if you ask me, which was definitely NOT a nerf.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

Edit: Deleted Double Post.

code65536 · April 2016

Specifically, for WGT/ICP...

There's a normal version of these two dungeons to cater to a wider audience.
Their loot is only VR15 and there's no chance of a helm drop. However, we can fix this quite easily: Just bump the loot drop to max level VR16, but lower the drop chance while increasing the drop chance on vet (also helps alleviate all the problems with the current loot system) so that the incentive of normal vs. vet is drop rate rather than level.
The normal versions can be run to fulfill the pledge quest when WGT/ICP comes up in the pledge rotation (many people still don't realize this). You could further incentivize this option by adding a "hard mode" to the normal version and allowing it to grant 1 gold key. In the current system, you get 2 gold keys for doing vet+HM and 1 silver key for any other completion (vet without HM or normal mode); allow an intermediate reward for an intermediate difficulty (e.g., normal dungeon with a "hard mode" toggle).

As for vCoA, people say that it's easy. But it's easy only if you have the DPS to burn through mechanics. In particular, the Fire Maw fight is actually rather difficult if you respect the mechanics and do it the way it was originally designed/intended, and it is the fight where most PUGs will fail on. For this, I wouldn't mind a "rebalance" similar to the one that the Flesh Sculptor recently got, where they alter the mechanics such that it would be impossible to straight-burn and ignore the mechanics, which would actually make the fight harder and longer for good groups, but also tone down the mechanics, which would make the fight more manageable for the average group.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

My 2 cents.

Here is the underlying problem. Right now, we have 2 difficulty modes. Normal which is a cakewalk, and Vet, which at least with ICP and even WGT, I will admit can be challenging. They certainly were back in the day. Normal provides absolutely no incentive to run it, but Vet drops some of the best gear in the game. This is not limited to these dungeons. Look at VMA, there are two modes: Laughably Easy (no viable end-game gear) and Nightmare (BIS weapons). People get upset, I believe, because they want access to the gear more than anything.

But that's(the bolded part) is just not true. Normal provides absolutely no incentive to run it, but Vet drops some of the best gear in the game.

I thank you for the kind words, but I have to disagree. Each of these dungeons provides something necessary. I guess i fall into the min/maxer category, no point in denying it. Right now, there are 3 places I NEED to run to min/max my build on my DK, and they are all the places we talked about. I need a better trait (divines) on a v16 heavy Skoria Helm (only available from VCOA), I need a second Maelstrom inferno staff (only available in VMSA), and I need better traits on 2 of my scathing pieces (only available in VICP). I still need better traits on some stuff from VWGT, but that grind is pretty much behind me.

Skoria is one of the 3 viable DPS monster sets available. I wont say its the undisputed BIS, but for many builds it is. You need VCOA to get it. VWGT, provides another one of these helms, that is again BIS for certain builds. It also gives Spell Power Cure, which is arguably BIS for healers, and Imperium, which a lot of tanks are after. VICP gives Scathing, which again is arguably best in slot for most magic DPS builds if you get the good traits. None of this stuff can be found in the normal version. Other than the skill point, there is no incentive to run them. As I think I have shown, BIS gear is lurking in the depths of the veteran versions only.

As for the difference between v15 and v16 gear, it is bigger than you think for a few reasons. One reason that is often overlooked is that v16 enchants are much more powerful than v15 enchants. It is also pretty silly IMO to make a v15 piece of gear gold. So really you end up comparing purple v15 to gold v16, and it absolutely makes a difference, especially on weapons. You can certainly clear all content (save VMOL) in purple v15 gear, but anyone going for time is going to notice a drop in their performance, especially on a DPS.

ButtersEP · April 2016

There has to be some END GAME content in ESO, end game meaning, even veteran players struggle through (we like the struggle I promise) it seems like Zos wants ESO to have 97% of its content beatable by everybody, while veteran players do what?

Magdalina · April 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw - I am aware the v15-16 weapon difference is rather massive. My weapons are all gold v16 for that reason, I'm not that cheap

But then no (viable) dungeon sets drop weapons(not counting MA stuff).
The difference between v15 and 16 armor is imo not that major. Enchants...yes, there is that. But even that combined difference isn't major enough to make or break the game. Heck, when WGT and ICP came out plenty of people first completed them in old v14 gear for the most part. I don't see a need for BiS gear for someone who cannot complete stuff like vWGT and vICP, and I don't think it's l33t attitude of me here, more like...why would you need that gear if you're not interested in actually improving your character(and if you are interested in improving your character, perhaps you should start with practising vet versions of the dungeon)? Just out of...jealousy, because the other guy has it? (not referring to you as in you personally) What kind of mentality is that?o.O

Haha, I suppose I am a lot less minimaxing than a lot of players out there. Perhaps it's because ESO RNG hates me so much. Honestly after about 300 vet DC runs for my first heavy helmet and like 100+ gold keys for my first light Kena shoulder(...impenetrable-.-) I don't care about traits anymore. I would like to be effective but I am effective as it is, further grind is just sucking all the fun out of the game. I'm chill with well-fitted SPC breeches, I'm super happy I have 5 pc SPC at all. I'm chill not having Scathing since for all hundreds of my ICP runs I only have like 3 pieces, I think 2 of them well-fitted. I've chilled out a lot there XD Don't get me wrong, I do admire the dedication of some people, and good luck to you on your search, I just don't think the part of the playerbase that's crying for nerfs because "we can't get good gear" actually understand what they're talking about. They can get good gear. They might not be able to get BiS gear(although again, Cyro vendor at least partially "solves" that...) but they do not need it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw - I am aware the v15-16 weapon difference is rather massive. My weapons are all gold v16 for that reason, I'm not that cheap But then no (viable) dungeon sets drop weapons(not counting MA stuff).
The difference between v15 and 16 armor is imo not that major. Enchants...yes, there is that. But even that combined difference isn't major enough to make or break the game. Heck, when WGT and ICP came out plenty of people first completed them in old v14 gear for the most part. I don't see a need for BiS gear for someone who cannot complete stuff like vWGT and vICP, and I don't think it's l33t attitude of me here, more like...why would you need that gear if you're not interested in actually improving your character(and if you are interested in improving your character, perhaps you should start with practising vet versions of the dungeon)? Just out of...jealousy, because the other guy has it? (not referring to you as in you personally) What kind of mentality is that?o.O

Haha, I suppose I am a lot less minimaxing than a lot of players out there. Perhaps it's because ESO RNG hates me so much. Honestly after about 300 vet DC runs for my first heavy helmet and like 100+ gold keys for my first light Kena shoulder(...impenetrable-.-) I don't care about traits anymore. I would like to be effective but I am effective as it is, further grind is just sucking all the fun out of the game. I'm chill with well-fitted SPC breeches, I'm super happy I have 5 pc SPC at all. I'm chill not having Scathing since for all hundreds of my ICP runs I only have like 3 pieces, I think 2 of them well-fitted. I've chilled out a lot there XD Don't get me wrong, I do admire the dedication of some people, and good luck to you on your search, I just don't think the part of the playerbase that's crying for nerfs because "we can't get good gear" actually understand what they're talking about. They can get good gear. They might not be able to get BiS gear(although again, Cyro vendor at least partially "solves" that...) but they do not need it.

Really cant argue with any of that. It is 100% true that if you cant clear VWGT, whether your helm is infused or divines doesnt matter much.

That being said, I still think the big problem is that most people want the v16 gear for whatever reason. For me, it's to min/max and the trait is just as important as the level. For others, it's because they perceive a big difference, whether it exists or not. I would rather see them drop v16 gear on normal mode or some intermediate mode than to nerf the last remaining 4-man content that provides a challenge.

Praeficere · April 2016

Pre-nerf Overfiend in Imperial City Prison was the most thrilling and gratifying fight I've ever had in ESO, especially as a tank. If you made a mistake, your team felt it. To survive the Overfiend you had to use your environment such as the pillars, chairs, tables and pieces of rubble to avoid damage. You had to watch your position constantly, as well as making sure you controlled both the Overfiend and the Harvester coming in half way through. Tanking the Overfiend and ICP developed me greatly as a player, and I learnt a lot to apply to other pieces of content and to teach to newer tanks.

What did ZOS do? They nerfed it. Not once, not twice, but three times.

Why did they do it? Because some players wanted to sit still, doing nothing but holding block, facing no consequences for making mistakes and having no responsibilities.

The result? Once the pinnacle experience of tanking in ESO collapsed into something no harder than a delve.

@ZOS_Finn , you introduced a normal and a veteran version of the IC dungeons for a reason. Players who spent hours learning the dungeon and developing strategies for the new dungeons were rewarded with two gold keys. Those who were still learning could do it in normal mode and receive a silver key, still having a chance for a shoulder. v15 versions of the gear also drop in normal mode, and there's not much difference between v15 and v16 armour pieces. Throw v15 Kena into normal mode and increase the difficulty of the IC dungeons as they once were. Post-nerf, the veteran difficulty is no harder than the pre-nerf normal.

There are many, many members of this community who teach players who wish to learn. However, when the game itself provides no incentive to learn when you repeatedly nerf content, what can we do?

Help us, help your players and guide them. You don't nerf the hardest content so a player who has had no exposure to how the game works on fault of ZOS, can finish it with medium armour and a destruction staff, still having no way to learn.

Autolycus · April 2016

I think a lot of what we do in these dungeons undermines the concept of nerfing them to begin with. I've taught a fair number of people who were undergeared or underleveled, or simply new to the game, or even new to only these specific instances, how to anticipate and understand the mechanics, what strategies work well, and what benchmarks to surpass in order to do the more advanced strategies (100% burn, speed runs, etc.).

Just to give an idea of what I mean, consider the Flesh Sculptor in vIP. When this first released, this was one of my favorite fights. It was clearly something that was very heavily oriented towards mechanics. The boss himself doesn't do a lot of damage, he only does a couple of mechanics, but they are punishing if ignored. Nowadays, they had to put limitations on that fight so that we cannot 100% burn him. This directly contradicts the idea that the dungeon is too challenging. If you ask me, the problem is that people who aren't doing this successfully need more practice, not a handicap.

Players who need help getting through this content are likely frustrated, yes. As I said, I've worked with a lot of people who felt this way. I didn't clear these dungeons on my first time through, and neither did any of my friends or guildies, and we are experienced and (were) well-geared (at the time). It's different now, obviously, as things have changed, we've moved on to new and better gear, and we know these dungeons front to back.

It's not too challenging for people to complete; it simply has minimum requirements. With this, I lead into the idea that ZOS has been forcing endgame content on new players. Why? There are 15 faction zones, Coldharbour, Wrothar, Hew's Bane, and a non-vet and non-cp cyrodiil campaign for players who are new or still leveling. Virtually everyone I know went through these zones before ever stepping foot into a trial or vet dungeon. I'm not saying I'm opposed to new players doing this content, not at all. But there is clearly a struggle here to make endgame content easy enough new players and still challenging enough for "endgame" players. Battle Leveling works in a lot of areas, but for vIP and vWGT I find it to be quite lacking, and the same is true for trials. Why rush into this stuff when there is so much more in this game to enjoy than endgame content? Why is it so wrong to save it for, you know, endgame?

Jesh · April 2016

I said this in another thread but I dont think the content should be nerfed but rather the dungeon scaling needs to be on point when VR is removed. There is a large gulf between newer and more experienced players when it comes to the Big Three dungeons, and players get caught in a Catch 22 (you cant run it because you've never run it so you cant run it).
I believe the key is having players learn these dungeons and their mechanics by doing them earlier in the game (right now its not easy to find people to group for scaled down vet Big Three dungeons).
I have not a clue as to how CP scaling will work, but i would hope that a dungeon scaled to CP cap would prove to be a very big challenge, and if the newer players have had experience with them and learned the mechanics, then they should be up to the challenge.
@ZOS_Finn , an idea to consider.

potirondb16_ESO · April 2016

Actually @Nifty2g I do like your idea of a nightmare mode, but I do have a different feeling about the reward system). Yup I tough about it also.

I would actually considere a Nightmare Gear improvement !

What is that ? It's actually a new temper you get from completing stuff in Nightmare more, which you can use to turn your gear into nightmare level gear. I know a lot of player would struggle with it but it would still be an incentive.

Here's how I see it, Dongeon nightmare they drop legendairy gear and but the last boss drop a Nightmare temper if you are Lucky and you chose to do the mechanic in hard mode. So most player can get Nightmare temper if they choose to do the easiest dongeon in Nightmare mode, but still only a few will really get those whithout a sweat.

Also Nightmare Trial, they drop legendairy gear and temper also, which mean all trial will be scale, still if you complete a trial in normal or veteran mode (regarding how that's done) and complete the last boss in hard mode you get a chance for a Nightmare temper.

Trial Nightmare they drop this temper. And I would actually see those temper turning any item into a a Nightmare item no matter if they are legendairy or green. So this way it noone would have to pay a bunch of cash to get there gear to Nightmare if you can complete Nightmare stuff while not using legendairy item go ahead you have a free pass to next level ***

So I would most like it to turn that way. A new temper that can differenciate people while still being accessible. And if they want to sell it for a Million Ap why not. I mean those player are also the best at their job obviously if they get a full set.

P.S. I know some people will hate that idea because they already have issue to deal with regular content the way it is and they don't want to be marginilise even more and I get that, but I don't feel like those nightmare mode should be part of any undaunted reward system, and I also don't feel like those nightmare mode should be unrewarding (in term that they don't need to be done as sometime veteran dongeon feel nowaday)

I mean it's either that or we start what some MMO does by segregating even more the dungeon we run and get for example vWGT set to drop 150 spell domage instead of 129 as any other set with spell power on them. That's also a possibility but Nightmare mode seem right to me. I mean obviously I will be running those dongeon on full time TS and with friend as I start to go through with them but as It goes, I will start making more room for new player that want to try it out.

RedRoomGaming · April 2016

I am an elite and you all should bow down to me!!!!

RedRoomGaming · April 2016

lathbury wrote: »

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

White gold tower is probably the easiest of them all lol. vICP we cannot get past first boss because we do not know the mechanics yet. If people actually got used to the mechanics instead of crying nerf all the damn time it would be easier.

you are probably over dpsing the boss tank him in front of the portal do steady dps as soon as adds spawn focus them then back to the boss at 50% use ultimates as a harvester spawns then repeat.
the adds spawn at boss health %'s so to much dps results in getting overwhelmed

I got the bosses mixed up. I meant the ones with the elite atronach spawns. We just haven't got the rhythm of throwing the bombs at the correct time and dps if you get me.

ok with this one tank him near the pool and dps untill 60% then he will become immune then focus any atros and throw bombs designate 1 player for each doorway. when he returns you may have another atro spawn use ulti on this and boss basically repeat this pattern.

That's the thing is getting the control over the atros and the bombs. It purely not knowing when and where etc. We will get it eventually no problem. Thanks for your help also.

potirondb16_ESO · April 2016

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

I am an elite and you all should bow down to me!!!!

Lol lately I run vICP with 3 player who never runned it, we had one support tank templar who was not blocking most of the fight, a sorcerer healer who was new to Healing and a Stam Sorc who was good but who was dealing around 15kdps... as far as I can tell.

And we made it pretty far until it comes obvious that heal/tank combination wasn't gonna work (the giant guys with poison bomb).

I mean does it means vICP is too hard, 15k dps is a fair level of dps to give it a shot, sure it's best if your other dps reach 23k dps but I can see someone running it with 2 15-18k dps player. Is tanking too hard, I mean sure 35k resistance is going to be helpfull but 28/32k nowaday is pretty honnest if you wanna run it.

Healing, do you need to have amazing set up, not so much, is it best if you can help the dps sure but can dps do it on there own, sure they can as well. Honnestly in this game, even on PC the fact that player are not talking to each other with a TS or Something like that is way more of an issue then the level of difficulty Inside those dongeon (hardest part being to call the shot so someone don't die). vCoA can be, in hard mode, a real dps challenge, but still that's only for the hard mode. So maybe lower the physical armor resistance on that guys and so that most group composition should be able to give it a fair shot but other then that...

iam117 · April 2016

i agree there should be no more nerfing of said content, if anything just make the help drops available as green/blue v15 on normal if people want to wine that much. i would assume (fwiw) that veteran content is supposed to be a challenge, especially if you want to get the gear

that being said, the proper thing to do would be to leave it alone, change the normal version so you can get a helm somehow with a lower level and change the damn loot tables on vet mode so those that can complete the content do not get *** traits and gear, and actually get good traits more often. then make the difficulty what it was before :P

iRogue32 · April 2016

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

No they need to be nerfed a bit, I shouldnt have to grind 500 cp and get full perfect yellow gear in order to be able to play the DLC I payed for!!!

@ZOS_Finn, @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS Please don't just listen to elitists, I already almost have full yellow gear and 300 cp, but can't finish VWGT and VICP and barely able to finish CoA.

This will discourage many players from even trying the DLC and the normal mode of them is completely pointless no reason or reward to play them at all!!

You are not lacking gear or champion points. The first time I completed these dungeons I was in the same situation as you with regards to gear and champion points. Learning mechanics is what is needed in order to beat these dungeons. So instead of begging ZOS to nerf something because you can't beat it why don't you try to learn the knowledge you are lacking.

potirondb16_ESO · April 2016

liv3mind wrote: »

that being said, the proper thing to do would be to leave it alone, change the normal version so you can get a helm somehow with a lower level and change the damn loot tables on vet mode so those that can complete the content do not get *** traits and gear, and actually get good traits more often. then make the difficulty what it was before :P

Why not V14 helm, I mean we still get a bunch of V14 item anyway

that could be it for normal helm drop.

Destyran · April 2016

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

No they need to be nerfed a bit, I shouldnt have to grind 500 cp and get full perfect yellow gear in order to be able to play the DLC I payed for!!!

@ZOS_Finn, @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS Please don't just listen to elitists, I already almost have full yellow gear and 300 cp, but can't finish VWGT and VICP and barely able to finish CoA.

This will discourage many players from even trying the DLC and the normal mode of them is completely pointless no reason or reward to play them at all!!

Ok so you cant blame it on elitist when your build sucks or your group sucks.

I had a bad experience in a random dungeon where a sorc said he was a healer and but his winged twilight up and preceded to spam crystal frags i asked politely if he could at least use healing spring or healing ward to help keep the other peiple alive he said "incase you havent read the patch notes twilights better than breath of life so you can just shut the *** up" i left after another fellow did. He will never do any dungeon if he refuses input like that. So maybe you should look at your group and/or your build and work together to improve your skills or ask a guildie or a random and appreciate some tips instead of coming here and demanding nerfs. If you play NA xbox message me my gt is same as user name i will happily give you advice or carry you through either dungeon.

iam117 · April 2016

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

Why not V14 helm, I mean we still get a bunch of V14 item anyway that could be it for normal helm drop.

i agree, that would be even better, if you cant complete vwgt and vicp do you really NEED the v16 versions of the gear?

iRogue32 wrote: »

You are not lacking gear or champion points. The first time I completed these dungeons I was in the same situation as you with regards to gear and champion points. Learning mechanics is what is needed in order to beat these dungeons. So instead of begging ZOS to nerf something because you can't beat it why don't you try to learn the knowledge you are lacking.

again i agree with this completely, most people that did it their first time were/are well below cp cap and likely not in bis gear. learning to conquer it is the fun part, thats why we spend hours wiping to things just to get it done, i would much rather spend endless hours chipping away at something and eventualy complete it than have it made easier just to get an achievement/gear.

To the anyone interested: if you can do 15k dps you can do anything in the game (even the first boss of vmol) with a semi decent group. dont nerf content just because your not completing, find a way to complete it.

nordsavage · April 2016

While I do not necessarily agree with the nerfs I had my fun and faster gear grinds are a plus. As long as they put out new challenging four man runs I would not be too heart broken. Besides this may encourage new sales and breath new life into IC sewers.

#Where'sVetDirefrostAt

Magdalina · April 2016

nordsavage wrote: »

While I do not necessarily agree with the nerfs I had my fun and faster gear grinds are a plus. As long as they put out new challenging four man runs I would not be too heart broken. Besides this may encourage new sales and breath new life into IC sewers.

#Where'sVetDirefrostAt

I do believe people would be much less upset by this if they did actually put out new challenging 4 mans...but they are doing the opposite. I know we haven't yet seen full DB patch notes but there's absolutely no way they missed mentioning a whole new (vet) dungeon or something in there. So...DB is coming in several months, give or take, seeing we don't even know when it'll hit PTS yet. Next update after that, I have no idea, another ~4-5 months? That pushes it somewhere to autumn, and there's no even guarantee we will have small group content then so...in best case we're looking at a total of over a year between new dungeons(seeing last ones were in IC). I understand that other parts of the game need love too, but as you can see from the forums there is a...noticeable part of the playerbase that is very much into small group content. Which we haven't seen updated since September(IC), making it over half a year. So what does ZOS do to keep this part entertained?
Do they add a new dungeon? Nope.
Do they perhaps scale the best 4 man content there already is, vDSA(I mean how hard can that be?)? Nope.
Do they maybe add something new to the existing 4 man content to keep it entertaining and challenging for the months to come? Nope, on the contrary, they nerf it. Zeni, are you purposefully trying to drive the 4 man group content folks away or something? Sure feels like it:/

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

that being said, the proper thing to do would be to leave it alone, change the normal version so you can get a helm somehow with a lower level and change the damn loot tables on vet mode so those that can complete the content do not get *** traits and gear, and actually get good traits more often. then make the difficulty what it was before :P

Why not V14 helm, I mean we still get a bunch of V14 item anyway that could be it for normal helm drop.

While I dont disagree with this in theory, I think the problem is that as long as Vet drops something that cant be obtained in normal, people will cry for a nerf. I would much rather them drop v16 stuff on normal and preserve the difficult content, than nerf it to oblivion.

potirondb16_ESO · April 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw , I kind of agree with you on that part

People would cry for nerf in order to get v16 ... But there got to be an other solution then giving it for free lolll.

Obviously,I need harder content for 4 man group

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw , I kind of agree with you on that part People would cry for nerf in order to get v16 ... But there got to be an other solution then giving it for free lolll.

Obviously,I need harder content for 4 man group

You and me both, buddy. That is why my first comment was about introducing an intermediate level. I dont think this would be nearly as much of an issue if the jump from normal to vet wasnt so extreme. That way you could have a normal version to learn the basics, an intermediate that is perhaps a little easier than vet is now, but where you can get all the drops you need with enough runs, and an actual veteran mode to test hardcore players. Perhaps the most difficult version would have slightly higher drop rates or gear quality, but it would not have ANYTHING you cant get out of the intermediate mode save time and a few tempers.

For the record, I dont think they need to do anything to their current 4-man content save adding vet mode to some older dungeons and reworking RNG, but I think this is a reasonable solution to please most people.

potirondb16_ESO · April 2016

Actually I do liked @Nifty2g solution for a Nightmare mode where veteran level could be tone down in order to reach an average level of difficulty.

But I would not agree with the Nothing better then gear level perspective.. I could probably fell for a currency token that you get to buy stuff but can't really agree with no gear differenciation other then temper... I mean the issue woud become the same, once you already have your gear at max level...

So, except that I can fall for it.

__

Do also like the possibility of random dongeon like they did with Ldon in EQ back in those day, that could be nice too.

RedRoomGaming · April 2016

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

I am an elite and you all should bow down to me!!!!

Lol lately I run vICP with 3 player who never runned it, we had one support tank templar who was not blocking most of the fight, a sorcerer healer who was new to Healing and a Stam Sorc who was good but who was dealing around 15kdps... as far as I can tell.

And we made it pretty far until it comes obvious that heal/tank combination wasn't gonna work (the giant guys with poison bomb).

I mean does it means vICP is too hard, 15k dps is a fair level of dps to give it a shot, sure it's best if your other dps reach 23k dps but I can see someone running it with 2 15-18k dps player. Is tanking too hard, I mean sure 35k resistance is going to be helpfull but 28/32k nowaday is pretty honnest if you wanna run it.

Healing, do you need to have amazing set up, not so much, is it best if you can help the dps sure but can dps do it on there own, sure they can as well. Honnestly in this game, even on PC the fact that player are not talking to each other with a TS or Something like that is way more of an issue then the level of difficulty Inside those dongeon (hardest part being to call the shot so someone don't die). vCoA can be, in hard mode, a real dps challenge, but still that's only for the hard mode. So maybe lower the physical armor resistance on that guys and so that most group composition should be able to give it a fair shot but other then that...

City of damn hell fire Ash!! Do not get me started on that one. Doing random groups where people have absolutely no idea on how to manage the fire maw let alone any of the other bosses just grinds me. I try and help them but then they rage quit and you have to search all over again. My normal group can run it in about 20-30 mins if that purely because of the run and die and run and die to try and get the keys faster

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

Maybe the lesson here is not L2P, it is L2G. Learn to Guild.

One way to stop the pug crying problem is to eliminate the pugs.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Well let me just say it then, L2P. Seriously if you can't finish it with 300cp and your full yellow gear you just completely fail at playing this game. Dungeons should not be nerfed because you refuse to l2p.

I could have quoted many posts from this thread, I choose this one - no particular reason, except maybe that's it's concise and not ambiguously worded.

- Whether the dungeon is "easy", "too easy", "hard" or "too hard" is not relevant, because it's all a matter of POV. What matters is how many players actually play these dungeons and how often, which indicates if it is a source of fun or not to each particular player profile. ZOS has EXACT numbers about this. Not "feelings", not "what if" or "what should" or whatever, but actual, real numbers. If they decide to make those dungeons affordable to a larger number of players it is THEIR decision based on their data that we don't have and their goals that aren't necessarily ours. What's left to any of us is to like or dislike it, that's all.

- If the dungeons are currently set at a difficulty level that too many people consider too high, and ZOS wants more people to play this content, it's perfectly legit to nerf them.

- People who refuse to "L2P" are perfectly legit too. It's their right. Playing is for fun, some find fun in effort, difficulty, stress and progress, others find their fun in a more relaxed and forgiving context. They are not "lesser players". I don't place any "value" into the notion of effort put into a video game. If you like making efforts, fine, but those who don't like it do not deserve less. There's no "merit", it's not a job, not a sport, not a prowess of any kind, it's a game.

- We all had the possibility to enjoy those dungeons at full difficulty for quite a while now, maybe it's fair now to let less skilled players enjoy it too.

I have run vCOA maybe a hundred times. Still enjoy it, it's the right level of challenge for me.
I have run vWGT maybe 50 times. It's fine. But it's also stressful. I don't run it anymore. The stress/fun ratio isn't that good.
I have run vICP maybe 10 times. It's doable, but not fun. I stopped running it.
I doubt any kind of "effort" would make me enjoy those dungeons more, since I can do them already. It's just that, for me, the fun/stress ration isn't good.

That said, I was happy that it wasn't nerfed : there's enough to do in the game to not miss two places that I consider too hard to be fun. Now it will be nerfed, I'm happy too, maybe I'll enjoy them more.

The nice thing is, I'm happy no matter what :-)

Nifty2g · April 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

@Nifty2g , btw, I do like the idea of "Nightmare Mode"(considering how easy, say, Wayrest is these days it's juts begging to be there...) but I'm afraid it wouldn't solve the underlying issue. There would be people unable to complete Nightmare dungeons and they'd want it nerfed.

I mean just look at WGT/ICP - there's NO reason to nerf them. You're literally not missing out on ANYTHING except the challenge and achievement by not doing them.
The quest is shared between vet and nonvet. The mechanics even are also shared so you aren't missing on any cool stuff really.
The gear drops in normal version, albeit in v15 but the difference isn't that huge and honestly, if you cannot complete vet version you're probably not a minimaxer who'd even care for that difference(it's not dismissive or offensive, it's fine. For example I'm not minimaxer enough to gold out half my gear still because I'm cheap(also permanently broke). I know I could technically farm/earn the gold I need for all those gold mats but I can't be bothered so I settle for ~1% less efficiency I get from purple gear. Just like anyone who doesn't want to bother with vet version should settle for v15 gear).
The helm can be bought at the vendor now, and considering the atrocious dungeon RNG you're probably better off buying it there anyway.

Yet they're getting another nerf because...just because. Same would happen to Nightmare mode(let alone if it'd actually drop gold gear, omg! Gods forbid we have that much reward for something a reasonable number of players can't complete!) unfortunately>.< There's a deeper issue here that needs a solution or every remotely challenging addition to the game will keep getting dumbed down because someone can't do it.

Well here's the thing I remember having a conversation with @ZOS_Finn something about difficulty where he told me Normal versions are mainly for those players "who want to see the content" - which is why there is such huge difference in my opinion, and we're using Veteran mode for the elite players and those players who are borderline and can barely do it. And yes there is a lot of those players, they largely make up the population.

The only way to put a barrier is to have a third mode, and leave the content how the developers made it to be, it's just sad that all their content is being nerfed to be a walk in the park mind numbingly boring dungeon or trial for that matter for most players, and lets be real it gets very boring after awhile not even engaging as a tough fight and you can even just afk and press 1 button if you wanted to.

So really I don't see the issue for a third mode and separate leaderboards, lock the weeklies out too if you're on nightmare you can't be on veteran, it gives more diversity, no leaderboard bombarding with characters so others can't get on. And it's an excellent way to run dungeons with the not so good players and help them progress.
Throwing in legendary gear would be extremely *** nice since we have 0 way to get that, and that doesn't seem normal to me, also gives the player a want to do the content and learn it.

Just my opinions really. I think its an amazing idea if we want to keep ESO competitive, we need a competitive mode.

KingYogi415 · April 2016

This is easily done at 400cp and vet 15 gear!