Alternatives to nerfing vWGT, vICP and vCOA

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

I understand where you come from but tbh most of us are beyond constructive at this point.

There's only so long you can keep bashing your head against the wall and stay friendly.

We don't always agree, @Magdalina , but you always manage to remain friendly, constructive and helpful. Sometimes we can feel the frustration between the lines in your posts, but still you manage. So it's doable - and kudos to you for that.

Haha, thank you, @anitajoneb17_ESO .
I'm glad if I still pass off that way because I'm trying, but I must say at this point I can absolutely relate to people who use slightly harsher tone to voice their concerns. They're frustrated and they're feeling ignored...as am I honestly. All I've been doing in game lately is feeding horses:/

Dubhliam

sickboy2808 wrote: »

Im gonna try Tanking ICP tmoz when its gold. I havent even tried that dung as said before i hardly play this game much now. Would anyone like to run it with me? Im on PC EU, or does anyone have tips for Tanking this dung? I dont know why its apparently so hard??

1st boss - Overfiend:
Ignore mobs, just tank boss, facing him away from group. Don't forget to interrupt his channel. At around 50% a Harvester miniboss will spawn from the portal (right side when entering the room). Taunt the Harvester (this is the tricky part, when Harvester is down, rest is easy).

2nd boss - Ibomez the Flesh Sculptor:
Simple as long as everyone in the group follows the mechanics. Tank boss and Atronarch. Boss sometimes incapacitates one random player - he needs to be bashed after a few hits on that player. Pick up bombs and throw them on the boss and atro to give them a temporary debuff (they take more damage). Once the boss goes to the central pond, everyone (including tank) spread across the room and throw bombs on zombies before they reach the center. Once the boss stops invoking them, you taunt and tank (rest of the group should not stop throwing bombs - you will tank alone for a few seconds).
If the mechanics are done perfectly, there should be no more Atronarchs spawning. If one does spawn, taunt and debuff - they have priority.

3rd boss - Gravelight Sentry:
Two ways to do it: kill adds first, or kill boss first. Easy boss, just try to interrupt all adds that channel. I usually just take the boss between two adds, and interrupt them when necessary while the group deals with the other 3 first.

4th boss - Flesh Abomination:
Don't taunt Hoarvors, if two of the red circles they throw overlap, you take massive damage from them. DDs should prioritize them and each kill one. You tank boss only (hits like a truck), try to be away from center. He has two spacial attacks:
One attack puts red circles on each player (this is indicated by the boss punching the ground - spread out). One of the players will get a red donut around him, zombies will spawn from that position. DO NOT STEP IN THE RED DONUT. You might try to roll dodge out of it, but it's risky.
The other attack puts red circles on any remaining Hoarvors on the field. This is indicated by the boss heading to the middle of the room. Run away from Hoarvors.

5th (mini)boss - Necromancer, Knight, Templar, Berserker:
A chaotic fight, each one turns into a ghost after he dies. Ghosts can't be blocked, not interrupted, so they are a pain. There are two ways to beat them: either kill all at once (unlikely) or kill them in an order where the most pesky ghosts will be left for last. Usually in the order I named them above - N,K,T,B.

Final boss: Lord Warden Dusk:
Where do I begin? Boss has two special attacks:
- "Machine gun" - he starts to "charge" his arms, then releases a barrage of shots at one random player, that player needs to block, spam shields or die. You as tank should try to get in front of the boss at that time to intercept as many projectiles as possible.
- The other time he will spawn blue orbs. This is indicated with his summoning-like raising the arm. Those orbs are the breakers of PUGs. They are permanent, deal damage to every nearby player and slow them. When he summons the orb, he will throw it onto one random player. It is of great help if players hug a wall at that time - the orb on the edge of the field is not as irritating as an orb in the center. You as tank can also try to stack orbs on top of each other.
Other than that, the boss will spawn two portals on the ground one at a time. They will move in random directions. DO NOT ENTER THE PORTALS before he jumps in the air (and stays there). He will usually say something something like "Hide, for all the good it will do". This is an indication that he will perform his lethal large AoE attack, you can only avoid getting killed if you get into a portal. Entering will spawn you over the center, you will need to press the synergy to avoid fall damage. Each portal can only throw people twice before they close, meaning two players per portal.
There is also the second phase where he splits into 4 images - tanks usually don't have much to do here, try to tank some, but mostly regenerate resources in this phase, get ready to get back at the normal phase.

You can also add me, I play on PC EU.
I can DD with my DK also, though I have mediocre DPS. But experience is far more valuable than DPS in those dungeons, which is what this thread is all about.

Magdalina

A comparison I posted in another thread and would like to add here I think...

You know how at mountain skiing resorts they have different kinds of slopes, from easiest to hardest? Easiest are marked in I think green on maps(could be wrong on that one, been a while sadly), hardest in black. Hardest are rather steep and narrow, they're not for total newbies in skiing/snowboarding.

It's like people are asking for the black slopes to be removed because they can't ski there without falling many times. Then when expert ski-ers say they'll have nowhere to ski then while newer ski-ers still have all the other slopes they tell the expert ski-ers they could just tie their legs together or try skiing with just one ski if they want a challenge, but black slope has to go.

Frankly it's ridiculous -.-

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

A comparison I posted in another thread and would like to add here I think...

You know how at mountain skiing resorts they have different kinds of slopes, from easiest to hardest? Easiest are marked in I think green on maps(could be wrong on that one, been a while sadly), hardest in black. Hardest are rather steep and narrow, they're not for total newbies in skiing/snowboarding.

It's like people are asking for the black slopes to be removed because they can't ski there without falling many times. Then when expert ski-ers say they'll have nowhere to ski then while newer ski-ers still have all the other slopes they tell the expert ski-ers they could just tie their legs together or try skiing with just one ski if they want a challenge, but black slope has to go.

Frankly it's ridiculous -.-

Good analogy. However, while it is true that (some) people have complained in the past about the difficulty, the decision to remodel the black slopes to give them the difficulty level of the red slopes comes from the designers of the ski resort. Because modeling the slope in the first place cost an awful lot of money, and it's not profitable enough if 100 people run it everyday. By remodeling it to red they expect 1000 people to run it everyday...

I know your vision of things : they should provide tutorials, or teachers, or incentives, or whatever, to teach people to ski on black slopes instead of making everything red level. It sounds all good, too... But it would do nothing for people like me who CAN actually ski on black but prefer to stay on red as a matter of taste. And while I understand your frustration, that's no reason for hating or despising the "red skiers"...

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

A comparison I posted in another thread and would like to add here I think...

You know how at mountain skiing resorts they have different kinds of slopes, from easiest to hardest? Easiest are marked in I think green on maps(could be wrong on that one, been a while sadly), hardest in black. Hardest are rather steep and narrow, they're not for total newbies in skiing/snowboarding.

It's like people are asking for the black slopes to be removed because they can't ski there without falling many times. Then when expert ski-ers say they'll have nowhere to ski then while newer ski-ers still have all the other slopes they tell the expert ski-ers they could just tie their legs together or try skiing with just one ski if they want a challenge, but black slope has to go.

Frankly it's ridiculous -.-

Good analogy. However, while it is true that (some) people have complained in the past about the difficulty, the decision to remodel the black slopes to give them the difficulty level of the red slopes comes from the designers of the ski resort. Because modeling the slope in the first place cost an awful lot of money, and it's not profitable enough if 100 people run it everyday. By remodeling it to red they expect 1000 people to run it everyday...

But it's silly in the longrun. What happens when the "red skiers"(I said green actually but I can't remember lol...might well be red) get too good for red slopes? Are they just gonna have to go to another resort(on top of all the "black skiers" who already went there)...or be told to tie their legs together to add challenge too?

I also don't understand why the notion of someone being able to do something you can't/do something better than you must provoke such jealousy/anger. I'm a noob at mountain skiing, mind you. I've tried it a few times but it's mostly flat around where I leave so not much experience there. I mean I know enough to not fall...most of the time

I remember seeing that one guy on a black slope one day. The interesting thing is he must've been well over 60 years old, from the looks of it. But omg was he good. I saw a lot of good ski-ers there, expert even but omg that guy. It's like he was one with his skis. I just stopped there and watched him ski, it was amazing. So did many other people.

I know I'm nowhere near his level, I'll probably never be. It's amazing though. It makes me want to learn to ski better. I'm pretty sure that was also the feeling most other people got - they were in awe, not jealousy. I think I saw people try to repeat the things he was doing later on. They were nowhere near as good but somehow I'm pretty sure that resort still has a black slope and people trying to perfect themselves there. Why is it that here we have this toxic atmosphere where people want the "black slope" removed for good and expert ski-ers to leave or purposefully gimp themselves if they want to have fun?

AOECAPS

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

A comparison I posted in another thread and would like to add here I think...

You know how at mountain skiing resorts they have different kinds of slopes, from easiest to hardest? Easiest are marked in I think green on maps(could be wrong on that one, been a while sadly), hardest in black. Hardest are rather steep and narrow, they're not for total newbies in skiing/snowboarding.

It's like people are asking for the black slopes to be removed because they can't ski there without falling many times. Then when expert ski-ers say they'll have nowhere to ski then while newer ski-ers still have all the other slopes they tell the expert ski-ers they could just tie their legs together or try skiing with just one ski if they want a challenge, but black slope has to go.

Frankly it's ridiculous -.-

Good analogy. However, while it is true that (some) people have complained in the past about the difficulty, the decision to remodel the black slopes to give them the difficulty level of the red slopes comes from the designers of the ski resort. Because modeling the slope in the first place cost an awful lot of money, and it's not profitable enough if 100 people run it everyday. By remodeling it to red they expect 1000 people to run it everyday...

I know your vision of things : they should provide tutorials, or teachers, or incentives, or whatever, to teach people to ski on black slopes instead of making everything red level. It sounds all good, too... But it would do nothing for people like me who CAN actually ski on black but prefer to stay on red as a matter of taste. And while I understand your frustration, that's no reason for hating or despising the "red skiers"...

By you stay on red instead of going to black as a matter of taste what you are saying is you can't do it on black so you tell yourself you choose to stay on red lol. If you enjoyed any type of difficult content you would want to keep these 3 dungeons the same since you are all about them Nerfing it after watching you qq about it I've realized you can't do any of them. You are the DD hard casting frags spamming light attacks standing in red. You have fought every person here that says keep it the same it's nice to have some difficult content. You must be a bleeding heart where everything has to be fair.

Dubhliam

The difficulty of slopes are:
Green = beginner
Blue = easy
Red = mediocre
Black = difficult

Or at least that is my interpretation, I have no trouble going to blacks. Some might find reds hard, and blues mediocre.

The analogy is a great one and yes, it all comes down to this:
People that can and want to ski on black slopes will eventually move on to another resort.
The resort that decided to rework all black slopes to red made a conscious business decision to cater to a larger population.
But every person can only get better. Even those persons that enjoy blue or red slopes will some day get better and find that this resort cannot provide a black slope.
So in the long run, resorts that have a wider variety of service won't lose their customers. Except maybe if they go and try different resorts just for the sake of change. But even those can and probably will come back.
Those that limit their service WILL lose their customers eventually, and they will probably never get those customers back.

timidobserver

Magdalina wrote: »

A comparison I posted in another thread and would like to add here I think...

You know how at mountain skiing resorts they have different kinds of slopes, from easiest to hardest? Easiest are marked in I think green on maps(could be wrong on that one, been a while sadly), hardest in black. Hardest are rather steep and narrow, they're not for total newbies in skiing/snowboarding.

It's like people are asking for the black slopes to be removed because they can't ski there without falling many times. Then when expert ski-ers say they'll have nowhere to ski then while newer ski-ers still have all the other slopes they tell the expert ski-ers they could just tie their legs together or try skiing with just one ski if they want a challenge, but black slope has to go.

Frankly it's ridiculous -.-

That is probably the most frustrating part about the nerf. Using your analogy, it would be like less skilled skiers insisting that the harder slopes be removed and the owners of the slopes actually doing it. They should be looking for a way to find some middle ground rather than just completely capitulating to the demands of the casual end of the player base. The solution should be something like tuning the loot tables/incentive and difficulty for normal mode rather than turning veteran mode into normal mode.

anitajoneb17_ESO

AOECAPS wrote: »

By you stay on red instead of going to black as a matter of taste what you are saying is you can't do it on black so you tell yourself you choose to stay on red lol. If you enjoyed any type of difficult content you would want to keep these 3 dungeons the same since you are all about them Nerfing it after watching you qq about it I've realized you can't do any of them. You are the DD hard casting frags spamming light attacks standing in red. You have fought every person here that says keep it the same it's nice to have some difficult content. You must be a bleeding heart where everything has to be fair.

- I have finished all the dungeons and all the trials (except vMoL of course) in hard mode. Whether you believe it or not is your problem, not mine.
- I have never asked for nerfs. I just welcome them.
- I do not really enjoy hard content, whether you get it or not is your problem, not mine.
- You must be really vulnerable to frustration to attack me personally this way, with totally made up assumptions, I'm sorry for you.

anitajoneb17_ESO

To "all of you" : why so you keep repeating over and over that ZOS has given in on player demands and QQ ? They said themselves : they made the decision based on COMPLETION FIGURES.
How hard is that to understand and why do you all insist on blaming weaker players ? Should everyone force themselves to complete those dungeons even though they don't like it, just so that you still have them ? I don't get it.
You simply happen to be a minority, and things like that happen to minorities, especially in business decisions. I understand that you are frustrated but don't use us as punching balls.

AOECAPS

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

AOECAPS wrote: »

By you stay on red instead of going to black as a matter of taste what you are saying is you can't do it on black so you tell yourself you choose to stay on red lol. If you enjoyed any type of difficult content you would want to keep these 3 dungeons the same since you are all about them Nerfing it after watching you qq about it I've realized you can't do any of them. You are the DD hard casting frags spamming light attacks standing in red. You have fought every person here that says keep it the same it's nice to have some difficult content. You must be a bleeding heart where everything has to be fair.

- I have finished all the dungeons and all the trials (except vMoL of course) in hard mode. Whether you believe it or nor is your problem, not mine.
- I have never asked for nerfs. I just welcome them.
- I do not really enjoy hard content, whether you get it or not is your problem, not mine.
- You must be really vulnerable to frustration to attack me personally this way, with totally made up assumptions, I'm sorry for you.

Ah precious little thing there is no hard content in this game aside from MoL which I doubt you beat. And they are Nerfing the harder of the dungeons because ppl can't beat them.also just because you got carried through dungeons and trials doesn't really mean you beat them.
I never attacked you personally I was "thinking out loud" you started any type of attacks because ppm that say dont touch the dungeons are wrong and you have told every single one of us for the last few days.
Hell you told me I was the reason people do t complete them. Lol you really are delusional

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

But it's silly in the longrun. What happens when the "red skiers"(I said green actually but I can't remember lol...might well be red) get too good for red slopes? Are they just gonna have to go to another resort(on top of all the "black skiers" who already went there)...or be told to tie their legs together to add challenge too?

Not all skiers will end up on black slopes, nor will all learn to get good or very good. The majority of them will remain bad or at best average. Be it capacity or will, not everyone is able to get good, no matter in what field. Top players, skiers, chefs, businessmen, whatever, will always be a minority.

Magdalina wrote: »

I also don't understand why the notion of someone being able to do something you can't/do something better than you must provoke such jealousy/anger.

What anger or jealousy are you talking about ? I'm in no way angry or jealous of top players. Somewhat admirative - even though, speaking of video games, I don't really put any value to it.

Magdalina wrote: »

Why is it that here we have this toxic atmosphere where people want the "black slope" removed for good and expert ski-ers to leave or purposefully gimp themselves if they want to have fun?

Once again, it's not players who decided to remove the black slopes, it's ZOS. Based on figures. Regardless if some people have asked for it or not. Why the need to always *blame* someone instead of realizing that this is a business decision. If you were running a business and had the choice of keeping 100 customers and losing 10, or the opposite, you would make the exact same decision.

And please stop with "all these good players who have moved on / will move on to another game". It's pretty obvious by now that in spite of its flaws, ESO has no equivalent at the moment in the MMO world, and hard content is nearly nowhere to be found in any MMO. Casualization has been hitting the entire video game industry for a couple of years already (including single player games), with very few exceptions. That's because there are more and more people playing from all categories of society, and not everyone "gets good" nor wants to. You might approve or disapprove, be happy or not, but that's the reality you (and we all) have to deal with. Including ZOS.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Once again, it's not players who decided to remove the black slopes, it's ZOS. Based on figures. Regardless if some people have asked for it or not. Why the need to always *blame* someone instead of realizing that this is a business decision. If you were running a business and had the choice of keeping 100 customers and losing 10, or the opposite, you would make the exact same decision.

And please stop with "all these good players who have moved on / will move on to another game". It's pretty obvious by now that in spite of its flaws, ESO has no equivalent at the moment in the MMO world, and hard content is nearly nowhere to be found in any MMO. Casualization has been hitting the entire video game industry for a couple of years already (including single player games), with very few exceptions. That's because there are more and more people playing from all categories of society, and not everyone "gets good" nor wants to. You might approve or disapprove, be happy or not, but that's the reality you (and we all) have to deal with. Including ZOS.

You're talking as though those figures magically fall from the sky. Those figures are made up by players who refuse to TRY to complete those dungeons(I'm also REALLY curious what role farming first WGT boss played in this; people beating her and not moving on must count for a failed attempt...does it?)...and that decision was definitely at least partially prompted by the forums qq, yes. You won't convince me, or anyone else, that it wasn't, because ZOS has a very clear history of listening to loud minorities qq-ing.

Also they're not deciding between keeping 100 customers and losing 10 or the opposite. They're ultimately deciding between keeping 100 and losing 5 or keeping 105. Because while I do see plenty of people frustrated by WGT/ICP failures I don't think I've seen anyone want to leave the game because of it. Why? Because they have all the other "slopes" available.

And btw you're right that I personally won't move to another MMO. This is my first and probably last MMO, I've met some great people here I'll try to stay in touch with, possibly log in to chat to them even but I'm not buying DB and I'll probably stop playing once it hits live in its current state. Not a threat, just a sad but very likely possibility:/ I know a lot of good players who will do the same. We don't have to deal with sh** we don't like - we can try to change it, fail, and leave. There's always actual mountain skiing which, while a bit more pricey, still has the black slopes

And btw the toxicity comment wasn't directed at you so much as some people I've seen here. I don't like the whole "anyone who's better than me and dares to advise me how to play is a filthy elitist jerk" attitude.

daemonios

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Once again, it's not players who decided to remove the black slopes, it's ZOS. Based on figures. Regardless if some people have asked for it or not. Why the need to always *blame* someone instead of realizing that this is a business decision. If you were running a business and had the choice of keeping 100 customers and losing 10, or the opposite, you would make the exact same decision.

And please stop with "all these good players who have moved on / will move on to another game". It's pretty obvious by now that in spite of its flaws, ESO has no equivalent at the moment in the MMO world, and hard content is nearly nowhere to be found in any MMO. Casualization has been hitting the entire video game industry for a couple of years already (including single player games), with very few exceptions. That's because there are more and more people playing from all categories of society, and not everyone "gets good" nor wants to. You might approve or disapprove, be happy or not, but that's the reality you (and we all) have to deal with. Including ZOS.

You're talking as though those figures magically fall from the sky. Those figures are made up by players who refuse to TRY to complete those dungeons(I'm also REALLY curious what role farming first WGT boss played in this; people beating her and not moving on must count for a failed attempt...does it?)...and that decision was definitely at least partially prompted by the forums qq, yes. You won't convince me, or anyone else, that it wasn't, because ZOS has a very clear history of listening to loud minorities qq-ing.

Also they're not deciding between keeping 100 customers and losing 10 or the opposite. They're ultimately deciding between keeping 100 and losing 5 or keeping 105. Because while I do see plenty of people frustrated by WGT/ICP failures I don't think I've seen anyone want to leave the game because of it. Why? Because they have all the other "slopes" available.

And btw you're right that I personally won't move to another MMO. This is my first and probably last MMO, I've met some great people here I'll try to stay in touch with, possibly log in to chat to them even but I'm not buying DB and I'll probably stop playing once it hits live in its current state. Not a threat, just a sad but very likely possibility:/ I know a lot of good players who will do the same. We don't have to deal with sh** we don't like - we can try to change it, fail, and leave. There's always actual mountain skiing which, while a bit more pricey, still has the black slopes

And btw the toxicity comment wasn't directed at you so much as some people I've seen here. I don't like the whole "anyone who's better than me and dares to advise me how to play is a filthy elitist jerk" attitude.

I'm also very sceptical of ZOS' figures. I believe they mentioned a 1% completion rate, which is very low indeed, but I have to say I took it as hyperbole and not actual numbers. If that is in fact the correct figure, I'm curious:

- Does it includes active as well as inactive accounts? Many people have come and gone, only accounts that have been active since IC came out should be counted.
- Does it include accounts with no veteran characters? I know they're nerfing both normal and veteran versions, but seriously, should this decision include those people who aren't heavy enough players - and mind you, I'm not criticising them - to have at least one vet character?
- Does it include players who've never attempted these dungeons? Many people PvP or role-play exclusively. It doesn't make sense for me to include these people when deciding to nerf content.

In the end, the decision remains far from transparent. I don't know whether ZOS will ever clarify the issues I've raised, but for me that would be important to drive increased acceptance by the community.

Regardless of that, I still think ZOS should be giving players better tools to improve their gameplay rather than handing them the content on a silver platter. In my experience of MMOs I've never encountered this sort of attitude by developers.

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

And please stop with "all these good players who have moved on / will move on to another game". It's pretty obvious by now that in spite of its flaws, ESO has no equivalent at the moment in the MMO world, and hard content is nearly nowhere to be found in any MMO. Casualization has been hitting the entire video game industry for a couple of years already (including single player games), with very few exceptions. That's because there are more and more people playing from all categories of society, and not everyone "gets good" nor wants to. You might approve or disapprove, be happy or not, but that's the reality you (and we all) have to deal with. Including ZOS.

And that is the reason why Nightmare hard games are so successful.
(looking at Dark Souls)
No other game provides hard content, so when one game DOES, all the players pour down to have some challenge.

Limiting the type of content you have in a game is never a good business decision.
Variety caters to a much larger population.
And as @Magdalina already said, people won't quit because a portion of the content is hard.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

Also they're not deciding between keeping 100 customers and losing 10 or the opposite. They're ultimately deciding between keeping 100 and losing 5 or keeping 105. Because while I do see plenty of people frustrated by WGT/ICP failures I don't think I've seen anyone want to leave the game because of it. Why? Because they have all the other "slopes" available.

The bolded part is where we disagree. Also, don't forget that the easy slopes are on the base game, and 2 of the 3 main culprit dungeons are part of a DLC that also needs to sell or to push people towards ESO+.

Magdalina wrote: »

And btw the toxicity comment wasn't directed at you so much as some people I've seen here. I don't like the whole "anyone who's better than me and dares to advise me how to play is a filthy elitist jerk" attitude.

Well, that goes both ways, I guess... You admitted yourself to have more acceptance for one side of these "attitudes" than the other - fair enough, but it goes both ways.

As to advising people... as I always say, don't advise people who haven't asked for it.

Back to black slopes analogy, because it happens to apply to me as well, I used to ski a lot on them when I was younger, always with a high level of stress. I was scared, but I did ski well enough to run them, so I went, because my friends were enjoying them. It took me a while to get conscious that I was doing this for the sake of the group, to be part of the group, but I wasn't enjoying it at all. I stopped running them and tell my friends to go without me. Still, every single time, there's this whole negotiation taking place :

(me) : - Just go without me, I'll stay on the red slope, let's all meet some place in an hour, have fun
(them) : - Just come with us ! It's easy ! All you have to do is...
(me) : - Thanks but I prefer to stay on the red slopes. Have fun !
(them) : - come on, just let me show you...
(me) : - please, I just told you that I don't want to...
(them) : - but you'll be happy once you've overcome your fear, you should learn, blah blah blah...
(me) : - Just leave me alone...
at this stage things get heated and we're lucky if the atmosphere is not ruined for the entire day.

What part of "I don't want to, regardless whether I can or can't or could, because it's not fun to me" is it that people don't understand ?

Transpose all this into ESO world, and the 2 hard dungeons : it's the exact same situation. I DON'T WANT TO because it's not fun to me, just you go and have your fun. At this stage, if people start saying I'm just bad, or start giving me advise, yes I'll get angry.

The only thing that could make me change my mind and go back to trying gear and rotations to improve on my 15K DPS would be training dummies. Until then, I stay where I am, because I'm happy that way, and I'm sorry if that contributes to statistics that lead to dungeons being nerfed for everyone. But that's how it is.

sickboy2808

Dubhliam wrote: »

sickboy2808 wrote: »

Im gonna try Tanking ICP tmoz when its gold. I havent even tried that dung as said before i hardly play this game much now. Would anyone like to run it with me? Im on PC EU, or does anyone have tips for Tanking this dung? I dont know why its apparently so hard??

1st boss - Overfiend:
Ignore mobs, just tank boss, facing him away from group. Don't forget to interrupt his channel. At around 50% a Harvester miniboss will spawn from the portal (right side when entering the room). Taunt the Harvester (this is the tricky part, when Harvester is down, rest is easy).

2nd boss - Ibomez the Flesh Sculptor:
Simple as long as everyone in the group follows the mechanics. Tank boss and Atronarch. Boss sometimes incapacitates one random player - he needs to be bashed after a few hits on that player. Pick up bombs and throw them on the boss and atro to give them a temporary debuff (they take more damage). Once the boss goes to the central pond, everyone (including tank) spread across the room and throw bombs on zombies before they reach the center. Once the boss stops invoking them, you taunt and tank (rest of the group should not stop throwing bombs - you will tank alone for a few seconds).
If the mechanics are done perfectly, there should be no more Atronarchs spawning. If one does spawn, taunt and debuff - they have priority.

3rd boss - Gravelight Sentry:
Two ways to do it: kill adds first, or kill boss first. Easy boss, just try to interrupt all adds that channel. I usually just take the boss between two adds, and interrupt them when necessary while the group deals with the other 3 first.

4th boss - Flesh Abomination:
Don't taunt Hoarvors, if two of the red circles they throw overlap, you take massive damage from them. DDs should prioritize them and each kill one. You tank boss only (hits like a truck), try to be away from center. He has two spacial attacks:
One attack puts red circles on each player (this is indicated by the boss punching the ground - spread out). One of the players will get a red donut around him, zombies will spawn from that position. DO NOT STEP IN THE RED DONUT. You might try to roll dodge out of it, but it's risky.
The other attack puts red circles on any remaining Hoarvors on the field. This is indicated by the boss heading to the middle of the room. Run away from Hoarvors.

5th (mini)boss - Necromancer, Knight, Templar, Berserker:
A chaotic fight, each one turns into a ghost after he dies. Ghosts can't be blocked, not interrupted, so they are a pain. There are two ways to beat them: either kill all at once (unlikely) or kill them in an order where the most pesky ghosts will be left for last. Usually in the order I named them above - N,K,T,B.

Final boss: Lord Warden Dusk:
Where do I begin? Boss has two special attacks:
- "Machine gun" - he starts to "charge" his arms, then releases a barrage of shots at one random player, that player needs to block, spam shields or die. You as tank should try to get in front of the boss at that time to intercept as many projectiles as possible.
- The other time he will spawn blue orbs. This is indicated with his summoning-like raising the arm. Those orbs are the breakers of PUGs. They are permanent, deal damage to every nearby player and slow them. When he summons the orb, he will throw it onto one random player. It is of great help if players hug a wall at that time - the orb on the edge of the field is not as irritating as an orb in the center. You as tank can also try to stack orbs on top of each other.
Other than that, the boss will spawn two portals on the ground one at a time. They will move in random directions. DO NOT ENTER THE PORTALS before he jumps in the air (and stays there). He will usually say something something like "Hide, for all the good it will do". This is an indication that he will perform his lethal large AoE attack, you can only avoid getting killed if you get into a portal. Entering will spawn you over the center, you will need to press the synergy to avoid fall damage. Each portal can only throw people twice before they close, meaning two players per portal.
There is also the second phase where he splits into 4 images - tanks usually don't have much to do here, try to tank some, but mostly regenerate resources in this phase, get ready to get back at the normal phase.

You can also add me, I play on PC EU.
I can DD with my DK also, though I have mediocre DPS. But experience is far more valuable than DPS in those dungeons, which is what this thread is all about.

Wow tyvm for all that info and for offering to help. Hopefully i will get to play today so will add you if i get on ty. To be fair it does sound a Hard Dung but i would still NOT want a nerf to it

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

As to advising people... as I always say, don't advise people who haven't asked for it.

Back to black slopes analogy, because it happens to apply to me as well, I used to ski a lot on them when I was younger, always with a high level of stress. I was scared, but I did ski well enough to run them, so I went, because my friends were enjoying them. It took me a while to get conscious that I was doing this for the sake of the group, to be part of the group, but I wasn't enjoying it at all. I stopped running them and tell my friends to go without me.

Well the thing with advising people is
1) a lot of people REALLY don't know better. Like, you talk to them and find out they have totally no idea why using magicka skills on a stamina build is a bad idea. Sometimes they're super grateful for your help in that case.
2, much more important) Unlike skiing, there's group content in this game that requires teamwork. Their mistakes can get ME killed. I'm okay with that as long as people are trying, but I will start giving them pointers if that happens. Because when in a group, work with the group.
Like Planar fight is actually easier with 2 good players total than 4, 1 of whom is inexperienced and not listening. Because if #4 gets portals and refuses to close them, there's nothing any of you can do to close them...you literally cannot carry a player through that fight if they refuse to communicate and adapt.

Far as your experience goes, personally I just find it so...weird. I remember first time I tried mountain skiing I was scared out of my mind, didn't know what/how to do, was almost freaking out even on green slope lol. I got over that eventually and even tried black slope a few times. I sucked there but the biggest kick out of all this was the sense of progression. It wasn't about doing the same thing over and over again but about doing it a tiny bit better than before.
I'll agree everyone's different and you're entitled to your opinion though(especially since you personally don't want black slope 100% removed just because you don't like it). But I think that
1)not wanting to use black slope is okay. Asking to have it removed because of that is ridiculous. I mean seriously, can you just imagine that in RL? And then to tell expert ski-ers to try skiing with one ski if they want a challenge(an equivalent of when people tell us to play without CP or gear or attribute points or whatever)?
2)I do think you are a minority. Most people will either progress beyond green slope and possibly eventually onto black, enjoying it all the way even if takes them forever, or they'll ski on the green for a while and then move on to other hobbies because clearly they're not into skiing all that much, in which case it's silly to remodel the resort for those people. Continuously skiing on the very same slope with no progress gets boring eventually(although if it doesn't for you, that's fair enough).

lathbury

decided to record a run today with a healer that had never done it before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stpgxWVk8IM

Destyran

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

To "all of you" : why so you keep repeating over and over that ZOS has given in on player demands and QQ ? They said themselves : they made the decision based on COMPLETION FIGURES.
How hard is that to understand and why do you all insist on blaming weaker players ? Should everyone force themselves to complete those dungeons even though they don't like it, just so that you still have them ? I don't get it.
You simply happen to be a minority, and things like that happen to minorities, especially in business decisions. I understand that you are frustrated but don't use us as punching balls.

Well to be honest some peiple wont even try to grind those dungeons for gear because everything else can be done with out it because there is nothing challenging so why even do it when you can already do all content?

Destyran

Pretty much why do wgt icp or coa when you can do dark shade for dat primo deltias build. ? Thats prolly why completion rates are low

Zerok

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Still, every single time, there's this whole negotiation taking place :

(me) : - Just go without me, I'll stay on the red slope, let's all meet some place in an hour, have fun
(them) : - Just come with us ! It's easy ! All you have to do is...
(me) : - Thanks but I prefer to stay on the red slopes. Have fun !
(them) : - come on, just let me show you...
(me) : - please, I just told you that I don't want to...
(them) : - but you'll be happy once you've overcome your fear, you should learn, blah blah blah...
(me) : - Just leave me alone...
at this stage things get heated and we're lucky if the atmosphere is not ruined for the entire day.

What part of "I don't want to, regardless whether I can or can't or could, because it's not fun to me" is it that people don't understand ?

Transpose all this into ESO world, and the 2 hard dungeons : it's the exact same situation. I DON'T WANT TO because it's not fun to me, just you go and have your fun. At this stage, if people start saying I'm just bad, or start giving me advise, yes I'll get angry.

I recognize myself in this part 100%.

I have guildmates that just "love" vWGT somehow. And they often ask me to come with them when they can't find a 4th DPS.

Personally, I hate this dungeon because I'm lazy and this dungeon requires concentration. Nevertheless, I did complete it with them 6-7 times (and no helm drop so far, which is a shame considering the difficulty level).

I just can't understand players who love this dungeon.

Dubhliam

Zerok wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Still, every single time, there's this whole negotiation taking place :

(me) : - Just go without me, I'll stay on the red slope, let's all meet some place in an hour, have fun
(them) : - Just come with us ! It's easy ! All you have to do is...
(me) : - Thanks but I prefer to stay on the red slopes. Have fun !
(them) : - come on, just let me show you...
(me) : - please, I just told you that I don't want to...
(them) : - but you'll be happy once you've overcome your fear, you should learn, blah blah blah...
(me) : - Just leave me alone...
at this stage things get heated and we're lucky if the atmosphere is not ruined for the entire day.

What part of "I don't want to, regardless whether I can or can't or could, because it's not fun to me" is it that people don't understand ?

Transpose all this into ESO world, and the 2 hard dungeons : it's the exact same situation. I DON'T WANT TO because it's not fun to me, just you go and have your fun. At this stage, if people start saying I'm just bad, or start giving me advise, yes I'll get angry.

I recognize myself in this part 100%.

I have guildmates that just "love" vWGT somehow. And they often ask me to come with them when they can't find a 4th DPS.

Personally, I hate this dungeon because I'm lazy and this dungeon requires concentration. Nevertheless, I did complete it with them 6-7 times (and no helm drop so far, which is a shame considering the difficulty level).

I just can't understand players who love this dungeon.

And that is ok.
Nobody should be forced to do something they don't want to.

But how do you stand on the nerfs?
Do you want those dungeons to be nerfed?
Will you run whose dungeons more often when they get nerfed?

If no, what would you propose to ZOS as an alternative to nerfing?

Dubhliam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pL4AzGBAsU

code65536

I went in with a friend today to test out vWGT on the PTS to see what the difficulty is like and if it's possible for us to 2-man it as two magblades. We've successfully 2-manned the vCoA gold key pledge (plus a number of lesser vet dungeons) on Live, so we do have experience with doing this sort of thing.

While it is easier, it's not a night-and-day change in difficulty. The trash mobs still have a lot of health (the "big" enemies in the mobs, for example, had around half million health), the boss health was only slightly lower than on Live, and as far as we can tell, all the mechanics are intact--I died in our first run at the Adjudicator because I messed up the lockpicking and succumbed to the DoT in the cage. We got as far as the Planar Inhibitor, where the blue phase is still a one-shot and Heat Stroke can still kill (the removal of the heal-on-damage crit "double-dip" for Nightblades and Templars, where you could crit a heal that was sourced form a crit damage hit lowered my self-healing enough that it felt like dealing with the Heat Stroke DoT was actually harder on the PTS than on Live).

After several attempts at the Inhibitor, we gave up our attempt at a 2-man run--with just 2 people to divide the Heat Stroke between, it was consistently overpowering us (the nerfed self-healing probably didn't help, either).

TL;DR: vWGT, while slightly easier than before, is still much harder than the typical vet dungeon, and I can see inexperienced groups and PUGs still struggling with it. We didn't try the normal versions.

I am happy that the nerfhammer turned out to be much softer than feared. At least for vWGT, the nerf is more of a small tweak than a massive overhaul of the difficulty.

Contraptions

I think a lot of concerns expressed in this thread might be exaggerated. The mobs on PTS have around 90% health as compared to live, so if you look only at that then yes, this is a nerf. But things like skill cost, block cost have increased, self-healing, self-shielding and self-sustain has been nerfed and overall might mean that the dungeons are as difficult as ever (or maybe now have become even more difficult).

I like the changes overall, I think by lowering the individual player's power they are instead emphasizing group dynamics like having dedicated healers and tanks (instead of people just throwing on a ward or spamming sap), which is what this game needs IMO. Tanks and healers have always been slightly disfavoured, perhaps this will change things.

RobbaYaga

This is just my two cents, but there is an option for people who cannot complete these pledges: don't do them at Vet level. I conquered vWGT pretty early, but only because I did it several times on Normal. Same with vICP. vCoA took some lessons from a more experienced player. While I generally hate when people use this phrase, this is simply a learn to play issue. Nerfing the last remnants of actually challenging 4 person instances just to make them available to the lowest common denominator is silly. The good (and great) players are paying customers too.


I love the ESO world, but ...

Screw over my sorc. Nerf the last of the enjoyable 4-person content. Do nothing to fix the endless Cyrodiil lag and various cheats. Why would I buy DB again?

If this is how MMOs generally go, just devolving into a pacification campaign, this could be my first and last MMO.