MidnightBlue wrote: »

You don't need a tank for most of the easy veteran dungeons. You absolutely don't need a tank for normal dungeons. The only ones I'd appreciate a tank in is vCoA, vICP, and sometimes vWGT. Of course not to say I don't want tanks in dungeons. I'll take one in Darkshade even, I'm just saying it's easy to complete most dungeons without one. You never know maybe that DPS that q'd as a tank could be one badass player. Why don't you try giving people chances first before kicking them?

Guppet wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's going to happen but it's ppl not the system as we all realize.

Here is my thought tho....if we "everyone" enter a random, our skills should allow us to change things around to balance the group out. So let's say with undaunted, alliance, class and weapon skills those combinations could allow all of us to play a role and support another. Tank or heals, if we don't get a pure role ....honest question, would you be willing to mix some skills around cause while I don't queue as something i can't fill, I've volunteerily left a group cause I had the heal skills, rank and spells and gear but it wasn't enough

Same as dps too

Thoughts?

It is both the system and the players. When you have zero class role type system where every class can play any role then this will always be a problem. In some games and many of the past mmos, you know EXACTLY the role of a character by the class they play. This is one reason i prefer those class systems much better then everybody can be everything type of class system.

So then its not the system, its us....because I do know as well as you comment to one fact.
Any class can play any role.

So its not the system. The system shouldn't determine who can and cant play a role because anyone can.
Also, lets be honest, while it may not be an ideal experience, anyone can decide to try any role out, with or without any skills or weapons for that role.

Is that wrong? Nope
its just not preferred.....the ideals of the trinity don't apply so if its the system, then the rolee pick needs to be completely removed. Another alternative should apply

Its no different than picking a class and being good or not good or trying any combination or mix or match in a group.

Oh i know any class can do any role. But when you design a game from scratch and put systems in then you have to look at the implications of it. Zos had to know with this setup that things like this would happen, you know and i know, players arent always honest in their role. It sucks for us players that try to do the right thing but with this design this problem will always occur in games. In another game it wont, Couldnt imagine somebody trying to do a group as Barbarian Healer in AOC for instance, it wouldnt happen EVER due to the system that was put into place. A developer has to understand this and put systems in place to alleviate this type of behavior.

Well wait....ZOS isn't who wanted to create a anyone from level 10-VR16 can do a tool dungeon. That was the community. But what hasn't changed...below which im pointing out...is not the trinity and that is REALLY IMPORTANT for everyone to accept.

The original design...
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/03/11/ask-us-anything-combat

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/15/ask-us-anything-dungeons

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/07/01/inside-eso-dungeons

Player Roles

In many MMORPGs, players are locked into performing one role in a group, whether they focus on damaging enemies (DPS, or Damage Per Second), keeping their allies in the fight (healing), or drawing the attention of enemies away from more vulnerable characters (tanking). These roles are still important for a successful dungeon group in The Elder Scrolls Online, but our open-ended skill system gives you much more flexibility. With the right combination of weapons and abilities, you can change your role on the fly to support your group’s needs.

For example, let’s say your group’s healer goes down during a boss battle. In many games, it would be impossible to recover at this point. However, you were prepared for just such a situation! You swap your two-handed sword out right in the middle of combat for a restoration staff, which activates your second hotbar (where you’ve cleverly slotted some healing abilities). Now, you can keep the party going.

That’s not the end of the differences you’ll notice in ESO dungeons. Here are some tips that will prepare you for success, no matter what role (or combination of roles) you choose:

DPS:

Monsters will attack you. Don’t panic, and don’t expect your tank to handle every enemy alone. You have a great toolbox to mitigate damage—you can interrupt, block, and dodge while dealing damage.
Focusing on one enemy at a time is helpful. Coordinate with your group and try to damage the same enemy, then move on to another. The longer the fight goes on, the more danger your party is in of running out of magicka and stamina.
Area of Effect (AoE) abilities are effective, but can be very dangerous. When you damage multiple enemies at once, you risk getting their attention and straining your healer. Be cautious when employing AoE attacks.
Be careful with your attacks! Avoid attacking monsters in the back lines of a pack (more details in the next section). Even getting too close to them can cause them to engage in the fight and threaten to overwhelm your party.

Healing:

Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group. The more players that bring healing abilities, the less need there is for a dedicated healer. Coordinate with your group—you might even find that, with the right abilities, each player can manage his or her own health.
Magicka potions can be a great boon, but make sure you choose when to use them carefully. Potions cannot be used in quick succession.
The tank won’t be the only party member taking damage. This is intended, and you will need to watch the other party members carefully.
You’ll take damage, too! Remember that you can interrupt, block, and dodge. Crowd control abilities that stun, slow, or otherwise incapacitate enemies can be extremely useful for healers, and so can damaging abilities.

Tanking

You won’t need to get every enemy’s attention. Every player can take a few hits from standard attacks, and they have lots of ways to take care of themselves. Many healing abilities affect an area, so your healer (if you only have one) should be able to take care of several party members.
In a fight with a large group of enemies, a tank’s ability to control the fight is critical. Stun the healers, interrupt the spellcasters—you’re the best party member for the job, because your stuns and interrupts will tend to get those enemies to attack you back.
You do need to stay engaged with tougher monsters, like bosses. They hit much harder, and your damage mitigation and extra health will keep you alive where other characters might die.

That was completely true at the start. The thing is that was with soft caps. With soft caps everyone would either be hybrid or have some survivability.

Now people are glass cannons, they don't have the survivability anymore. When DPS are glass cannons the need for dedicated tanks and healers increase.

No soft caps means a need for dedicated roles in harder content.

It's a pity, the original idea was better and would have given shorter queues.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

I kick or leave groups if the tank can't taunt.
You can solo vet dungeons on a sorc so its not about not being able to complete it, its about not encouraging people who skip the queue line by going all 3 roles when they can only do 1.

Even had stamina nb archers as the only healer in the group.

ZOS should do a skill check and set a minimum for the tank role. Maybe they will in 2 years based on the current speed... until then kick kick kick. :-)

So while I think that's cool for you it shouldn't be required. We all have different ideas and expectations but the game promotes and enables all classes to play all roles exclusively and/or simultaneously.

What I think is important for all of us(and this is just my point of view) is not be rude but ask why they chose a role. That's really going to set the stage. If they don't communicate at all, and u see something that isn't to your liking ask the group.

If it's just u who doesn't like it...leave. (Sounds harsh but that's really the best behavior)

We aren't going to change anyone by kicking them or telling them to play a certain way.
Education is key....hey player X, when u are marked as healer I'd like you to do X. If you're marked as tank I'd like you to do X. If you're marked as dps I'd like you to do X.

Pallio wrote: »

Seen a few times were a dps equips a resto staff and pretends to be a healer too.. those runs are painful

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

I kick or leave groups if the tank can't taunt.
You can solo vet dungeons on a sorc so its not about not being able to complete it, its about not encouraging people who skip the queue line by going all 3 roles when they can only do 1.

Even had stamina nb archers as the only healer in the group.

ZOS should do a skill check and set a minimum for the tank role. Maybe they will in 2 years based on the current speed... until then kick kick kick. :-)

So while I think that's cool for you it shouldn't be required. We all have different ideas and expectations but the game promotes and enables all classes to play all roles exclusively and/or simultaneously.

What I think is important for all of us(and this is just my point of view) is not be rude but ask why they chose a role. That's really going to set the stage. If they don't communicate at all, and u see something that isn't to your liking ask the group.

If it's just u who doesn't like it...leave. (Sounds harsh but that's really the best behavior)

We aren't going to change anyone by kicking them or telling them to play a certain way.
Education is key....hey player X, when u are marked as healer I'd like you to do X. If you're marked as tank I'd like you to do X. If you're marked as dps I'd like you to do X.

He's not talking about kicking a tank if the tank doesn't fit a certain stereotype of build and/or class. He's talking about kicking a tank who doesn't taunt. If you don't taunt, you're not tanking pure and simple. That's the one absolute non-negotiable. It has nothing to do with ideas or expectations, that's literally the entire job of the tank: to taunt and hold aggro on the biggest threats while staying alive as well as possible. How you achieve that as a tank is up to you. You could do it on any class, and you could be using the Undaunted taunt exclusively with only light armour and no sword & shield if you want (I sure wouldn't, but with the right setup it could work). But you have to taunt or you're simply not a tank. Period. Full stop. End of story.

Maybe your definition of a tank requires taunts...if the player read the website and then started playing....here is one point of view based on what ZOS intended. Taunting is helpful and I'd not argue that I don't prefer tanks who can taunt but I think it's extreme to say if u don't taunt ur not a tank.

UrQuan wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

I kick or leave groups if the tank can't taunt.
You can solo vet dungeons on a sorc so its not about not being able to complete it, its about not encouraging people who skip the queue line by going all 3 roles when they can only do 1.

Even had stamina nb archers as the only healer in the group.

ZOS should do a skill check and set a minimum for the tank role. Maybe they will in 2 years based on the current speed... until then kick kick kick. :-)

So while I think that's cool for you it shouldn't be required. We all have different ideas and expectations but the game promotes and enables all classes to play all roles exclusively and/or simultaneously.

What I think is important for all of us(and this is just my point of view) is not be rude but ask why they chose a role. That's really going to set the stage. If they don't communicate at all, and u see something that isn't to your liking ask the group.

If it's just u who doesn't like it...leave. (Sounds harsh but that's really the best behavior)

We aren't going to change anyone by kicking them or telling them to play a certain way.
Education is key....hey player X, when u are marked as healer I'd like you to do X. If you're marked as tank I'd like you to do X. If you're marked as dps I'd like you to do X.

He's not talking about kicking a tank if the tank doesn't fit a certain stereotype of build and/or class. He's talking about kicking a tank who doesn't taunt. If you don't taunt, you're not tanking pure and simple. That's the one absolute non-negotiable. It has nothing to do with ideas or expectations, that's literally the entire job of the tank: to taunt and hold aggro on the biggest threats while staying alive as well as possible. How you achieve that as a tank is up to you. You could do it on any class, and you could be using the Undaunted taunt exclusively with only light armour and no sword & shield if you want (I sure wouldn't, but with the right setup it could work). But you have to taunt or you're simply not a tank. Period. Full stop. End of story.

Maybe your definition of a tank requires taunts...if the player read the website and then started playing....here is one point of view based on what ZOS intended. Taunting is helpful and I'd not argue that I don't prefer tanks who can taunt but I think it's extreme to say if u don't taunt ur not a tank.

You're flat-out wrong. Pure and simple. There can be absolutely no debate about that point. If you can't taunt, you're not a tank. End of story. It has always been a complete non-negotiable requirement, and a taunt has always been available for any player of any level as it's the first skill in the sword & shield skill line. The entire role of a tank is to hold aggro. The only way to ensure you do that is with a taunt. That's not my definition, that's simply what a tank is. If you don't understand why a taunt is an absolute non-negotiable requirement then honestly I can't believe that you've ever done any group dungeons in the years you've been playing this game.

The only question is whether a brand new tank knows that a taunt is required. There is absolutely no question that it is required, only whether someone who has no idea how to tank understands that it's a requirement.

cyclonus11 wrote: »

I prefer Doesn't Play Sober myself.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

There can be absolutely no debate about that point. If you can't taunt, you're not a tank. End of story. It has always been a complete non-negotiable requirement, and a taunt has always been available for any player of any level as it's the first skill in the sword & shield skill line. The entire role of a tank is to hold aggro. The only way to ensure you do that is with a taunt.

Sorry @UrQuan but I think you're too extreme here (and "that's how it is, end of story" is no argument, it's just spamming your opinion... it's not a "definition" either).
As far as I know the role of a tank is to attract and survive incoming damage so that players doing outgoing damage can focus on that instead of their own survival.
Of course a taunt is the most efficient way to do it - but not the only one. Doing more damage than other players will also attract the mobs to me. That's how I do it in easy PUG/GF dungeons with lowbie players. They pull 5-6K, I pull 12K, the boss comes to me, I block/kite/shield/whatever, until my DPS becomes lower than theirs, then I loose aggro, and I start hitting again, the mob comes back to me, and so on.
I call that "tanking", too.

Proximus-Prime wrote: »

Every dungeon i tank i usually get complimented on how well i did , so there must still be people that like to have tanks around, i mean i do little less DPS but i keep my fellow party members alive, and i love doing pug dungeons , meeting new people and 75% of the time i'm getting friend requests out of it

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

There can be absolutely no debate about that point. If you can't taunt, you're not a tank. End of story. It has always been a complete non-negotiable requirement, and a taunt has always been available for any player of any level as it's the first skill in the sword & shield skill line. The entire role of a tank is to hold aggro. The only way to ensure you do that is with a taunt.

Sorry @UrQuan but I think you're too extreme here (and "that's how it is, end of story" is no argument, it's just spamming your opinion... it's not a "definition" either).
As far as I know the role of a tank is to attract and survive incoming damage so that players doing outgoing damage can focus on that instead of their own survival.
Of course a taunt is the most efficient way to do it - but not the only one. Doing more damage than other players will also attract the mobs to me. That's how I do it in easy PUG/GF dungeons with lowbie players. They pull 5-6K, I pull 12K, the boss comes to me, I block/kite/shield/whatever, until my DPS becomes lower than theirs, then I loose aggro, and I start hitting again, the mob comes back to me, and so on.
I call that "tanking", too.