And this arrived in my e-mail today

Elsterchen · April 2016

Hey everyone,

I felt somehow drawn to this post, evenso I would never have thought "looks" are overly important to me. I do however notice a strong preference for playing avatars representing my gender and a disturbance if these avatars just "do not fit" my understanding of their role.

As far as I understand, the decision to use only male meshes is an economical one. However, we do know that female meshes are available and rotting in some ZOS employers desk.

Soooo...

What would you think about the following:

Make half of all new armors with the male-mesh and the other half uses the female mesh only ...?

From an economical point of view this should be doable without any further costs (both meshes are available already!) . Adding to this it would be fair, treating both sexes equally. However, I could imagine some more ppl showing up here complaining about the outcome, because some of us might just notice the relevance of this topic, once they are directly affected.

What do you think? (@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @everyone)

edit: For clearification: 50% ... if 2 new sets are released: set 1 (all of it!) would only use male meshes and set 2 (again all of it!) would only use female meshes. If only one new set is released at a time the meshes used alternate.

Ichnaea · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Since your comments seem to be directed at my post, I'm going to try answer some of your points:

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Real female armor.

Everyone who is here saying that the armor needs to curve to the breast to be realistic has no idea what realistic female armor was like and should be like in eso...

yawn.

Not everyone is saying that, but whatever. This is correct and believe it or not, I agree with you.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Real female armor.
Everyone who is here saying that the armor needs to curve to the breast to be realistic has no idea what realistic female armor was like and should be like in eso...
yawn.

Yes, "yawn" is correct since you're apparently so tired that you completely missed where she is talking about CLOTH, not armor.

This was posted by someone IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EXACT THREAD.

That is not a problem. This picture shows no problems.

The yawn is because people are being stupid over nothing.

I don't agree with this. This picture, by your own previous statement, has a lot wrong with it.

Realistically, that growth on the front of her chest would not be there on metal or thick leather armor. It would be flatten. As a woman, I can assure you my breasts are soft, fatty flesh. If I were to put a piece of metal, or tight leather, across my chest, they would give and flatten - even to the point, as you noted earlier, of giving the impression of being flat or near flat.

Boob armor, as you call it, was never used historically. But armor (real and ceremonial) was made for women warriors and rulers (e.g. Catherine the Great, Joan of Arc). This armor, as you noted, closely resembled male armor. I am not arguing that point. But it still would be fitted to the female body.

I'm sorry, Horator, too many records exist historically to prove this - particularly in the case of Joan of Arc. The armor, male, female, unisex, would have been fitted to her body.

So what is this growth on this character's chest? It's the male mesh made for a male body. Dynamically, in game, it shapes to the highest point of the chest on the body. On a male, that highest point would be the chest muscles. The slope, down going down, on a male would be his natural ribcage. The mesh, and texture, would look fine on a male.

But it does not look fine, or even realistic, on a female. Because the mesh is shaping to the highest point on the female body, which in this case is her breasts, it is pushing the armor out, when in reality it should flatten the softer breasts. But the only way for the mesh to work, and not have her body mesh is clip out of it, is for the mesh to stop at the tip or top of her breasts. And since this is a male mesh, shaped to a male torso, the result is the the bulging chest muscles of both the first and second figure. Women don't have bulging pectoralii; they have breasts.

And this is just one issue. The shoulders are male and the line to the waist is male. The torso area is male. The armor clearly looks misshapen and unrealistic, because a woman's silhouette, even in armor, does not look like that. Even the picture you posted does not look like that.

I am trying to be respectful here. You can choose to react however you want. But this isn't about boob or revealing armor for me, so please do me the courtesy of not saying that. If you like the armor, then enjoy it.

But whether you like it or not, this is a forum for people who own the game. I own the game and I can express my opinion.

Thank you for saying so eloquently what I could not. I really don't understand how people don't understand the original point.

Obliterate · April 2016

It's a game.

andreasv · April 2016

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Which also offers the option to pay a subscription fee if you wish. If you're not happy with the service they provide you have every right to choose to not pay that subscription.

I cancelled mine about a week ago after a few days with server issues. I guess the only reason I stayed subbed since PC release was because I was hoping for some reward for long term supporters.

I haven't noticed any changes in female armour models, but understand that some players would see such lazy designs as a reason to not pay a sub anymore. I hope this is not another copy & paste case (like many mounts) and an indication of future additions to the game.

babylon · April 2016

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

And OP is voicing displeasure with the services provided by this game by no longer supporting this game with her subscription to this game.

Maybe they will get her subscription back once they start treating all money as worthy of their time, and make female armour their own female meshes.

Ichnaea · April 2016

andreasv wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Which also offers the option to pay a subscription fee if you wish. If you're not happy with the service they provide you have every right to choose to not pay that subscription.

I cancelled mine about a week ago after a few days with server issues. I guess the only reason I stayed subbed since PC release was because I was hoping for some reward for long term supporters.

I haven't noticed any changes in female armour models, but understand that some players would see such lazy designs as a reason to not pay a sub anymore. I hope this is not another copy & paste case (like many mounts) and an indication of future additions to the game.

Welcome to the dark side!

Lolssi · April 2016

IrishGirlGamer wrote: »

Seriously. I played Witcher for like six minutes and never again.

Maybe you should like research a bit before buying? I wasn't happy either that I couldn't create my own character but the world easily makes up for it

Then again I doubt that is for you either

Moonshadow66 · April 2016

babylon wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

Hey @IrishGirlGamer could you point me out in which way you feel female characters are forced to use a male shaped clothing and armor models ? I feel like I should be aware of something that I am not.

Read this thread here

This monstrosity is male armour wrapped over the female body, which is why it looks so horribly distorted. ZOS has decided they will no longer design armour for the female body and we will now have to "make do" with armour made for the male form instead of having our own meshes.

From the side, it's pretty much the same shape (the boob part) like the Trinimac robe which exists even much longer already. Not sure what they thought when they "designed" it... Also the shoulder "flap" from light glass armor is extremely distorted, but to the outside (convex). It's a fist onto the eye.

andreasv · April 2016

Ichnaea wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Which also offers the option to pay a subscription fee if you wish. If you're not happy with the service they provide you have every right to choose to not pay that subscription.

I cancelled mine about a week ago after a few days with server issues. I guess the only reason I stayed subbed since PC release was because I was hoping for some reward for long term supporters.

I haven't noticed any changes in female armour models, but understand that some players would see such lazy designs as a reason to not pay a sub anymore. I hope this is not another copy & paste case (like many mounts) and an indication of future additions to the game.

Welcome to the dark side!

Timmeh is that you??!! Unless you're Darkness_429 you are NOT allowed to say that!
He's one of my favourite streamer and always says that in a deep voice when someone subs to his twitch channel.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome. I hope the benefits are better than with ESO+.

dday3six · April 2016

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Real female armor.

Everyone who is here saying that the armor needs to curve to the breast to be realistic has no idea what realistic female armor was like and should be like in eso...

yawn.

This picture isn't real armor. I pointed that out in another thread too. The chain mail does not cover the arms, and a simple blue cloth shirt would offer little protection. This is fake jousting armor, and calling it real is like calling american football pads a bullet resistant vest.

Obliterate · April 2016

babylon wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

And OP is voicing displeasure with the services provided by this game by no longer supporting this game with her subscription to this game.

Maybe they will get her subscription back once they start treating all money as worthy of their time, and make female armour their own female meshes.

I can see where your coming from, but you'll need a lot more women or people who like/use the women characters in your support, £10/month isn't going to persuade them to pay their model team X amount per hour to make the models look nice for a minority of players.

Dromede · April 2016

Tbh, I didn't even notice the change since my endgame armor of choice is made in glass and altmer style... But I definitely will not spend time or gold grinding/buying the new motifs now that I know that it doesn't look properly.

I do not rp, but I'll never put over sexualized "armor" on my toon - some people asked that question in this thread before. Nor will I put on potato shaped armor ☺ just like in real life, there should be comfortable common sense medium.

P.s. reading about games with male- or female-only characters made me realize that I've never played as a male toon. I also don't remember playing any game for any significant amount of time that does not offer customization of appearance - and that goes for gender as well. It's like some people will never play a game with bad graphics no matter how good storyline is, and i'm among them. Not saying that anyone else should agree with that, just saying that there's a customer base that strongly feels this way.

P.p.s. Other than Skyrim and ESO, my next favorite is Dragon Age series, in which you get to watch your character in cut scenes - a huge point for immersion.

Ichnaea · April 2016

andreasv wrote: »

Ichnaea wrote: »

andreasv wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

Which also offers the option to pay a subscription fee if you wish. If you're not happy with the service they provide you have every right to choose to not pay that subscription.

I cancelled mine about a week ago after a few days with server issues. I guess the only reason I stayed subbed since PC release was because I was hoping for some reward for long term supporters.

I haven't noticed any changes in female armour models, but understand that some players would see such lazy designs as a reason to not pay a sub anymore. I hope this is not another copy & paste case (like many mounts) and an indication of future additions to the game.

Welcome to the dark side!

Timmeh is that you??!! Unless you're Darkness_429 you are NOT allowed to say that!
He's one of my favourite streamer and always says that in a deep voice when someone subs to his twitch channel.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome. I hope the benefits are better than with ESO+.

We've got cookies

Tandor · April 2016

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

Please, don't make it a male/female issue. Sure, hopefully, they will fix it. We all support your cause, I believe. But let's keep it about aesthetics. Just my perspective. I'm trying to hide from all this feminist *** in the game, and I'm a little upset that it still found me when I just wanted to read/talk about the game on forums. Have enough of this all over the internet.

Well ZOS probably isnt trying to be sexist on purpose. Theyre trying to cut costs and reduce dev time. However, its hard not to notice theyre doing it at the expense of one gender over the other. They are indirectly saying: you arent as important as them. Also, it looks crap.

They may also be doing it to reduce the number of different character displays available with a view to reducing the demands on the server as characters are drawn, and thereby improving performance in critical areas like Cyrodiil. That's often a reason for developers "dumbing down" armour appearance in MMOs.

I can understand the concerns over this, although whether I'd see something of this sort as being sufficiently serious to deter me from playing a game (or contributing to it) is another matter. Ultimately I try not to take my gaming too seriously but I realise not everyone has the same approach, and principles are principles when all said and done. Where principles fit in when deciding to stop contributing to a game while still playing it is another point on which I'd be far from clear.

olsborg · April 2016

Agree with OP, armors on male vs female should look drasticly different.

MasterSpatula · April 2016

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

That is not a problem. This picture shows no problems.

I am so sorry you have never been exposed to the beauty of a female body ...

Mature and such a valid argument.

In fact, @SirAndy did make a valid argument. Since there is literally no case to be made that this

is an accurate or adequate depiction of a female body-type in cloth, it is literally more probable that you've never seen a female than it is that you have seen one and are defending this as "not a problem."

Giving you the benefit of the doubt like that seems highly mature.

Dromede · April 2016

And BTW, for anyone who feels like like this issue has been colored feminist, not important and just plain silly... Here's a comparison you might have easier time to relate too.

Due to economical and other reasons, new crafting styles will no longer accommodate Khajiti and Argonian tails. Instead, armor will just kind of stretch over their behind.

For every reasonable comment about lore, aesthetics, real life experience and common sense you will get 5 saying something like:
*I'm tired of having to put up with other people's feelings
*I'm not an argonian/khajit, so I don't care. You shouldn't either.
*Go play other 8 races, they are still available and perfectly fine
*Don't tell me you've never played a non-argonian character in an Elder Scroll game. I've never been Argonian, so issue must be not important
*What's that with you and tails? I'm sick of cats showing off their tails everywhere, let me take a break from them in the game

Obviously, comparison only works for moral side of the story, not the actual technical part of making armor design. But I hope you get an idea and a good laugh.

Hallothiel · April 2016

Please forgive me for asking but I am confused as to what you mean by female armour. I would appreciate a decent picture or description because as far as I can recall in real life there was not really any such thing - during the times when armour was worn, it was usually men who fought. Any woman who did would just have worn 'male' armour or even just a hauberk.
But this is not a game breaking issue for me & I have to say I do struggle to understand. Have played games where the 'female' armour is straight out of a Franzetta but it just made me laugh as so not me! And I love The Witcher series and get quite a kick out of playing a male character - have done this by choice in other games including ESO. Because it's fantasy.
But then I usually play male Khajiit....and finding armour thst doesn't catch the fur and has enough room for the tail can be a bore

Obliterate · April 2016

CherryCake · April 2016

I agree with everything you said here, however I still hope you will give The Witcher another try. The game is absolutely beautiful, you will fall in love with many characters (as they are made quite realistically), the story is beautiful and it can get quite immersive even as a male character play, trust me the game actually makes you feel the story (something that unfortunately you dont really have in ESO, just personal opinion) .

Unfortunately with the Witcher you cant just make a character of your own because it is Geralt`s story, I also wish I could have done that but we still get sometimes to play with Ciri!!!

Oldmanlawlor · April 2016

Rember when this kind of issue was raised with the Makers of Mass Effect?

We got 'Fem-Shep' (what she was nicknamed) trailers, posters and even game covers. My Special Edition Mass Effect metal case has 'Fem-Shep' on the front, and dude shep in the back.

It would be nice to see a similar response. I have 6 characters, 3 female 3 male. It would be nice to know they there is a difference in appearance. Armour means a lot to us in game.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · April 2016

your loss, The Witcher 3 was awsome

babylon · April 2016

Obliterate wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

And OP is voicing displeasure with the services provided by this game by no longer supporting this game with her subscription to this game.

Maybe they will get her subscription back once they start treating all money as worthy of their time, and make female armour their own female meshes.

I can see where your coming from, but you'll need a lot more women or people who like/use the women characters in your support, £10/month isn't going to persuade them to pay their model team X amount per hour to make the models look nice for a minority of players.

I don't think people who make female characters and think this decision is rude even just on a visual level would be in the minority.

Tandor · April 2016

babylon wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

And OP is voicing displeasure with the services provided by this game by no longer supporting this game with her subscription to this game.

Maybe they will get her subscription back once they start treating all money as worthy of their time, and make female armour their own female meshes.

I can see where your coming from, but you'll need a lot more women or people who like/use the women characters in your support, £10/month isn't going to persuade them to pay their model team X amount per hour to make the models look nice for a minority of players.

I don't think people who make female characters and think this decision is rude even just on a visual level would be in the minority.

I'm not sure "rude" is quite the term most would use, but it's certainly possible that most would think it wrong. I doubt, however, that most would consider it a game-breaking issue, especially considering that it only relates to certain gear. I have a number of female characters (as well as male ones - it's a role-playing game) across my two accounts and they're not affected by it at all. Then again, I haven't seen anyone here claim that it is a game-breaking issue, only a sub-breaking one, and there's a significant difference.

TheGrayChangeling · April 2016

Without supporting or opposing these ZOS armor design decisions I would offer a couple of articles on this topic that some might find interesting. The gist? IRL boob plates probably never existed - which is good because they would have more likely endangered than protected the wearer.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-kind-of-armor-did-medieval-women-really-wear-1502779338

http://www.tor.com/2013/05/06/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you/

PS apologies if this was already mentioned.

babylon · April 2016

Tandor wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Obliterate wrote: »

It's a game.

And OP is voicing displeasure with the services provided by this game by no longer supporting this game with her subscription to this game.

Maybe they will get her subscription back once they start treating all money as worthy of their time, and make female armour their own female meshes.

I can see where your coming from, but you'll need a lot more women or people who like/use the women characters in your support, £10/month isn't going to persuade them to pay their model team X amount per hour to make the models look nice for a minority of players.

I don't think people who make female characters and think this decision is rude even just on a visual level would be in the minority.

I'm not sure "rude" is quite the term most would use, but it's certainly possible that most would think it wrong. I doubt, however, that most would consider it a game-breaking issue, especially considering that it only relates to certain gear. I have a number of female characters (as well as male ones - it's a role-playing game) across my two accounts and they're not affected by it at all. Then again, I haven't seen anyone here claim that it is a game-breaking issue, only a sub-breaking one, and there's a significant difference.

Even the guys I spoke to while playing today were quite upset by this, so whether they see it as rude or horrible isn't needed to be defined...it's just a choice of words. Regardless I think we can agree many if not most people see it as a poor choice, reflects badly on the game and makes the female characters look awful...and simply is something that isn't wanted.

*actually upon reflection I think people I spoke to today seemed to feel shades of anger, felt upset and had some loss of respect for the company who can make decisions like this about our characters in the game we play...you have to consider a character is a very personal thing and we do grow attached to it or even relate to it, and we enjoy seeing our characters looking good.

If this continues into all future armour I'm pretty sure it's going to affect which motifs are wanted and which ones aren't, once word gets out. That will affect your game gold earnings as well, so this could affect more of you than people initially think.

___________________________

Titansteele · April 2016

babylon wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

Sorry to hear this OP but it's not really a good enough reason for them to re-implement it.

Right so you support females getting treated worse than males. Nice to know, be sure to let your wife and mother see what you're writing.

For the sake of clarity I would like them to fix the issues, not for any political or social reason as I do not think there is any sexism or oppression at play here but to make the world nicer to look at again. I shall chip in to that comment by taking a guess at what my wife may say and then another go at what my mother might say.

Wife (Who plays ESO and has not noticed this change

)
"They have changed the models? I only really ever see my characters ass. I can not see how this could be considered disrespectful to women everywhere."

Mother
"Its a computer game, I really can`t get upset about how someone has drawn some fake clothes on a fake woman"

For fun I have thrown my sister in here
"Stop playing games and looking at women's b00bs you perv"

If this spoils your enjoyment you are completely entitled to that opinion and I respect it but I think it goes too far to say it is mistreating women as a whole.

babylon · April 2016

Titansteele wrote: »

I think it goes too far to say it is mistreating women as a whole.

Really, so you don't think they'd stop to question why ZOS sees fit to remove only female meshes and not male meshes, or perhaps to instead use female meshes on male gear instead of choosing to use male meshes on female gear. Maybe you managed to surround yourself with the kinds of people who fit your world view ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Or maybe speaking for them instead of asking them directly, and only once they have read and absorbed the contents of this thread... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Regardless, that ZOS think it's okay to make only female armour distorted and hideous by choosing to not spend any time on it at all does indicate they don't value our money at all, whether it's females or males playing their female characters.

ZOS_AlanG · April 2016

Debate is welcomed on the forums, but it's important to keep it civil and constructive. A number of posts in this thread were baiting or demeaning, and have been removed (along with any responses).

Please remember to be respectful of others. This doesn't mean you need to agree with everyone, but it's unacceptable to attack others. As always, it is important to abide by the forum rules.

lardvader · April 2016

Yes I've been frustrated over the female armors as well. One of my favorite armors are mercenary but they look so much better on males. In fact I designed both my last female alts to be bigger and more muscular to make the armors fit better.

However I don't think that this is reason alone to not play a game you like. I play a mix of male and female (not hermaphrodite) but usually prefer female characters. I hope that ZoS will look into this as well as some animations at some point. (first fix the server lag though

)