Shuffle Bug Needs To Be Fixed ASAP

kadar · March 2016

Great. Now I'll start getting hate tells about how I only killed so-and-so because I'm exploiting shuffle...
-_-

HoloYoitsu · March 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

Great. Now I'll start getting hate tells about how I only killed so-and-so because I'm exploiting shuffle...
-_-

Solution: don't kill people.

rokrdt05 · March 2016

Yiko wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Is Blur also bugged?

Can someone test? I can't get online atm. Would like to see this fixed

No Yiko, Blur seems to be working as intended... at least to testing myself and others have done.

CatchMeTrolling · March 2016

I have seen people getting attacked by several enemies but taking no damage lol

danno8 · March 2016

This explains that one guy I fought a couple days ago.

First Javelin misses "Damn"
Seconds misses "Lucky ****"
Third misses "WTF!!"
Fourth miss is around where I stopped bothering.

Good to know something is broken other than my sportsmanship.

glavius · March 2016

My sample of around 150 attacks showed a 28% dodge chance. So slightly high % but low sample size.

One interesting thing that might make people think it works more than it should is the fact, that when I did a light attack-skill-bash, sometimes all 3 would hit and ui would still show 1 dodge. Or 2 hits and 2 dodges.

So I'm inclined to believe that the issue might just be the ui showing dodge too often (I used FTC)

olsborg · March 2016

This game is working as intended, its intended to be buggy.

Alcast · March 2016

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

That's really stupid, but would explain why animation cancelling results in a higher number of dodged attacks. I assume it has the same mechanic as a dodge roll then? -_-

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

So you're saying it's a 20% chance to proc dodge rather than 20% chance for a skill to miss? How long is the dodge period? 3 secs? And I assume you can get multiple procs in a row? So you could be dodging all incoming *single-target* damage for 9 seconds? Or did I misunderstand?

Alcast · March 2016

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

That's really stupid, but would explain why animation cancelling results in a higher number of dodged attacks. I assume it has the same mechanic as a dodge roll then? -_-

Yes, animation canceling means more attacks per second so you will reach the 20% dodge chance faster.

Alcast · March 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

So you're saying it's a 20% chance to proc dodge rather than 20% chance for a skill to miss? How long is the dodge period? 3 secs? And I assume you can get multiple procs in a row? So you could be dodging all incoming *single-target* damage for 9 seconds? Or did I misunderstand?

The dodge duration is not long, not really sure how long it is tho. maybe someone else knows. I think smth like 1 second or even less.

But ye, during that period of time, all 1990391093 attacks would miss. Not sure if you can shuffle Ground Based AoEs and Magicka AoEs as they are not dodgeable.

Wollust · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

That sounds completely reasonable and everything but it doesn't explain why blur is not behaving the same way then.
Maybe they obly gave shuffle this "dodge roll effect"

Speely · March 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

So you're saying it's a 20% chance to proc dodge rather than 20% chance for a skill to miss? How long is the dodge period? 3 secs? And I assume you can get multiple procs in a row? So you could be dodging all incoming *single-target* damage for 9 seconds? Or did I misunderstand?

These are the right questions.

If the dodge period is low-ish (say 0.25 to 0.5 seconds) then I could accept the skill as a viable counter to animation cancelling (I don't have a problem with the cancelling, btw, but counters are a good thing imo.) However, if this skill applies any dodge to other attacks within a 1s or so window EVERY TIME IT INITIALLY APPLIES then it is automatically very OP.

Considerations: Major Evasion is already quite powerful. Not only does it equal out to 20% less damage over time (give or take based on RNG,) but the method of mitigation is superior due to the fact that a miss is also negation of any associated CC or debuffs.

So if this evasion buff is providing a "fired off" dodge guarantee for an extended period of time, it automatically becomes far more advantageous than any Armor buff by virtue of both secondary effect avoidance and far superior straight damage avoidance.

FriedEggSandwich · March 2016

Speely wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

So you're saying it's a 20% chance to proc dodge rather than 20% chance for a skill to miss? How long is the dodge period? 3 secs? And I assume you can get multiple procs in a row? So you could be dodging all incoming *single-target* damage for 9 seconds? Or did I misunderstand?

These are the right questions.

If the dodge period is low-ish (say 0.25 to 0.5 seconds) then I could accept the skill as a viable counter to animation cancelling (I don't have a problem with the cancelling, btw, but counters are a good thing imo.) However, if this skill applies any dodge to other attacks within a 1s or so window, then it is automatically very OP.

Considerations: Major Evasion is already quite powerful. Not only does it equal out to 20% less damage over time (give or take based on RNG,) but the method of mitigation is superior due to the fact that a miss is also negation of any associated CC or debuffs.

So if this evasion buff is providing a "fired off" dodge guarantee for an extended period of time, it automatically becomes far more advantageous than any Armor buff by virtue of both secondary effect avoidance and far superior straight damage avoidance.

Agree, if the dodge period is less than a second then it doesn't sound too bad even with multiple procs, and as you say has the added effect of countering animation cancelling to some degree, but also becomes more effective the more players you have focused on you.

Glamdring · March 2016

As stated above, its 20% Dodge chance on every single attack not 1 out of 5. You have to do a serious amount of attacks to get a reliable result, way above 1000 more up the 10k range.

Speely · March 2016

Glamdring wrote: »

As stated above, its 20% Dodge chance on every single attack not 1 out of 5. You have to do a serious amount of attacks to get a reliable result, way above 1000 more up the 10k range.

But it's potentially NOT on every single attack, as suggested above. A 20% chance on every attack is quite reasonable. Alcast suggested that there is a dodge window that a proc of this skill's effect produces that applies to every attack within that window. That is not a 20% chance per-attack, but a 20% chance to produce a 100% dodge chance for x amount of time.

Of course, this may just be bad research (and I will indeed test myself once at home) but the basic premise is worth addressing if the skill works contrary to your model.

I always thought it was a 20% chance per attack as well, and indeed I hope it still is. That makes way more sense than a 20% chance to proc a 100% chance for x seconds.

Edit: Agree that any reliable test should be based upon a 1k+ range.

Akinos · March 2016

zyk wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Minsc wrote: »

Rumours also say that Shuffle gives a bit more than 20% dodge chance...

Tested with two different people and around 200 attacks each.
Came very close to 50% in all four test rounds.
Could do more if necessary but testing that isnt exactly my job

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I don't know if it's the same bug or not, but Shuffle has been broken for months. This is being used by almost every Stam build and needs to be fixed ASAP. Against some players, I am missing 5 concealed weapons in a row -- even from cloak; they are not being roll dodged.

I figured shuffle was bugged, I've heard about it being more then 20% several times. It really does seem like it's more then 20%. Needs to be looked into ASAP.

Derra · March 2016

Soulac wrote: »

Maybe important that my miss chance was much higher while animation canceling.

Shuffle triggers a short window for dodged attacks where everything hitting at that time will miss. Atleast thats how it's working for me. Dodge light attack = dodged skill aswell...

Alcast · March 2016

Wollust wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

That sounds completely reasonable and everything but it doesn't explain why blur is not behaving the same way then.
Maybe they obly gave shuffle this "dodge roll effect"

what does blur do? It should work the same as shuffle?

Sugaroverdose · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

That sounds completely reasonable and everything but it doesn't explain why blur is not behaving the same way then.
Maybe they obly gave shuffle this "dodge roll effect"

what does blur do? It should work the same as shuffle?

Surround yourself in a phantasmic aura to gain Major Evasion, increasing your Dodge chance by 20% for 20 seconds.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I did not read anything at all in this thread. But all the 20% dodge skills work like this:
The moment it procs, ALL your attacks will MISS as long as he is dodging.

So if you do 3 attacks while he is dodging, means you will miss all of those 3 attacks.

That sounds completely reasonable and everything but it doesn't explain why blur is not behaving the same way then.
Maybe they obly gave shuffle this "dodge roll effect"

what does blur do? It should work the same as shuffle?

It's the same buff (major evasion), so does it have the same effect as was mentioned above? If not, it could be different because Shuffle is a stamina skill?

Isbilen · March 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

Great. Now I'll start getting hate tells about how I only killed so-and-so because I'm exploiting shuffle...
-_-

Well, if the dodge rate is close to 50% as stated in OP, that's a fair statement. 30% more dodged attacks is huge.

rfennell_ESO · March 2016

It's obvious that some people dodge stuff at ridiculous levels.

Most recent offender of it I see was "leader of an indian tribe" and it's being exploited like crazy with that guy.

It's pattern is extended duration of dodging all attacks and then the holding of block... then dodging all attacks... holding block.

So, best I can tell not only are they aware when their dodge window is they know when it isn't (hence holding block).

EP pride at work. NA PC you see this behavior primarily from them.

glavius · March 2016

1: Large sample test. 457 total hits (done with light attack, skill, bash cancel) Shuffle used for dodge chance.
361 hits
96 dodges

A number of "fake" dodges shown by UI. 3 attacks all hit but it showed a dodge too. I'm 100% sure I only did those 3 attacks.

Dodge chance 21,007%

2: There does not seem to be a dodge period after a dodge.
I could get the light attack dodged, but the skill and bash afterwards hit. I tried this with the fastest animation cancel I could manage and I could still get first hit dodged while the last 2 hit.

Conclusion. The "fake" dodges shown by UI, in my case FTC, might be why people think it's bugged.

Blur also produces fake dodges.

SKILL SEEMS TO BE WORKING AS INTENDED.

xANTIxMATTERx · March 2016

I run shuffle on both of my PVP toons. I get hit by everything. There is definitely more to it than just using the ability or all stamina users would notice this bug since it's pretty significant. I don't doubt that something is wrong with it though. I have noticed quite a few players recently that are dodging most of my attacks

Publius_Scipio · March 2016

https://youtu.be/t5whaRkuipU

glavius · March 2016

I never noticed anyone consistently dodging the majority of my attacks.

Inig0 · March 2016

Yea, as a stam pvper i would agree, shuffle is dodging a bit much. i would like to see it do what the tool tip actually says. like not allowing me to be snared after i use it.. There are a lot of mechanics in this game that need reworking or fixing.

phreatophile · March 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's obvious that some people dodge stuff at ridiculous levels.

Most recent offender of it I see was "leader of an indian tribe" and it's being exploited like crazy with that guy.

It's pattern is extended duration of dodging all attacks and then the holding of block... then dodging all attacks... holding block.

So, best I can tell not only are they aware when their dodge window is they know when it isn't (hence holding block).

EP pride at work. NA PC you see this behavior primarily from them.

Sounds like Hist Bark set to me depending upon what you mean by "extended".