ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for your feedback on this ability, everyone. We did take a look at this ability just to make sure it was working properly and as intended, and it is. There are some circumstances where it can feasibly hit pretty hard, but that's ok in our eyes and we don't currently have plans to change its functionality. It's also worth noting that the way our Death Recap UI works is it combines all tickets of one channel together into one entry, so it may appear as though Radiant Destruction has some outrageous damage at first.

TY for confirming Gina.
I'm just glad templars are now a threat and ppl started realizing that.
Gives you an idea of how weak they were last patch and little changes like jesus beam being undodgeable made a biiiig difference.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

What exactly was bugged about it? Also what makes it balanced in it being un dodgeable? Every other execute is dodgeable. Shoot a majority of the times sorcs endless fury/mages wrath doesn't even execute. So why does radiant get to be this one special exception?

It was bugged last patch that if:

1. if you and another person were using it at the same time it wasn't getting its execute bonus at all.
2. It was hit or miss if the skill would even crit, half the time it couldn't crit.
3. It was dodgeable when it wasn't supposed to be,

Channeled skills have never been dodgeable in this game, never...not even back as when the game came out in April of 2014 channel attacks were never dodgeable. It was bugged with the Wrothgar update of being dodgeable when it was never supposed to be, Lighting and Resto Staffs heavy attacks were also bugged and dodgeable, im glad they fixed it.

Channeled skills have never been dodgeable you say? Jabs is dodgeable, wrecking blow is dodgeable, dark flare is dodgeable. The only undodgeable channel has been ineveatable det. I can understand the first one being an issue. But not criting as much as you'd like and being dodgeable is just a part of the game. Most magicka users don't have high crit in the first place. Those reasons alone doesn't answer my question as to why radiant destruction should be the exception.

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

Too many people have this asinine mentality.

Radiant destruction executes players of a playstyle I hold a personal vendetta against? Balanced.

Do you know why people complain about dying to radiant? Because there's not enough counterplay.
When people die to any other execute in the game, they feel as if there was something they could have done to live a little bit longer. That's not the case with Jesus Beam. It's the only true *execute* in the game, and it seems to be overtuned in terms of damage.

Not enough counter play??
Jesus beam can be LOSed with literally anything.
It can be bashed.
It can be interrupted with Venom arrow or Crushing shock
Its damage can be absorbed.
It can be cleansed.
It can be blocked.
Lets not forget how squishy a templar is when you're pulling those 20k jesus beams. 2-3 wrecking blows and hes out LOL

Honestly man, the only ppl who dont like this are mostly the stamina players who are used to the rolling around heal up and attack maneuver. I lost track of all the players i encountered who would roll around right in front of me as soon as i jesus beamed them. That *** was ridiculous. Thats like putting a sticky bomb on you and you started rolling around and avoided the dmg completely.

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

Too many people have this asinine mentality.

Radiant destruction executes players of a playstyle I hold a personal vendetta against? Balanced.

Do you know why people complain about dying to radiant? Because there's not enough counterplay.
When people die to any other execute in the game, they feel as if there was something they could have done to live a little bit longer. That's not the case with Jesus Beam. It's the only true *execute* in the game, and it seems to be overtuned in terms of damage.

Asinine? Channel attacks have never been dodgeable and ZOS has said this over, and over, for 2 years...its intended to be this way. There is plenty of counterplay to Radiant, folks just choose not to use any of them. (Crushing Shock, Venom Arrow, Teleport Strike, Bash, Invasion, Crit Charge, Stonefist, Javelin, Crystal Frag, Agony, Rune Cage, Fossilize, Annulment, Hardened Ward, Igneous Shield, Radiant Ward) 16 counters right there alone off the top of my head, all that will stop the caster dead in his tracks.

I have no vendetta against any playstyle. On the contrary i advocated on the PTS to get Impenetrable adjusted because "Stamina Builds" would suffer the most from its OP ness, but i guess im just biased against stamina who are being royally shafted by this....

As an example, I melted a guy with a Gold Vr16 Nirnhoned Lighting Staff the other day. From full health i hit him for 16k total with the 3 pulses from the heavy attack(Channeled) as he was rolling behind the tree he dropped below 20% health and proc Disintegration for another 14k damage....thats 30k burst damage from a Heavy Attack at full health...Jesus Beam has nothing on that....

Channeled attacks have always been the counter to dodge roll, they would be useless if they were dodgeable....since Resto and Lighting Staffs can't weave or medium weave and are a DPS loss mostly they have to have undodgeable Heavy attacks but they can be LOS...RD can be LOS....Resto and Lighting staffs have the same counters. You also can't weave or animation cancel while using channeled abilties...its a trade off.

Im sorry i disagree with you, but i can't see a channeled ability that roots its caster to that location for 3.5 secs and is bashable and interuptable as being OP when its caster is a sitting duck. RD has so many downsides, it needs to atleast be able to kill someone half the time. I don't even use it all that often anyways but just saying.

Yiko wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Need more?

OH, GOD. PLEASE, NO. NO.

Also as a stamina user, you forgo the training to channel magicka forces around you in favor for instant armor-penetrating physical attacks. Since you don't utilize the energies around you for offensive, your steel ignores most magical defenses. Flipside, you also lack the magicka defenses required for defending against many heavyweight channel abilities.

Your movement speed is unmatched, you are trained to be fully aware around you as you dodge projectiles and arrows around you. You can be trained to use stealth to focus attacks in highly specific areas, and you can heal yourself up with a 2hander weapon as you pose like He-man... Wait wat? Lol.

Mumyo wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

Too many people have this asinine mentality.

Radiant destruction executes players of a playstyle I hold a personal vendetta against? Balanced.

Do you know why people complain about dying to radiant? Because there's not enough counterplay.
When people die to any other execute in the game, they feel as if there was something they could have done to live a little bit longer. That's not the case with Jesus Beam. It's the only true *execute* in the game, and it seems to be overtuned in terms of damage.

Not enough counter play??
Jesus beam can be LOSed with literally anything.
It can be bashed.
It can be interrupted with Venom arrow or Crushing shock
Its damage can be absorbed.
It can be cleansed.
It can be blocked.
Lets not forget how squishy a templar is when you're pulling those 20k jesus beams. 2-3 wrecking blows and hes out LOL

Honestly man, the only ppl who dont like this are mostly the stamina players who are used to the rolling around heal up and attack maneuver. I lost track of all the players i encountered who would roll around right in front of me as soon as i jesus beamed them. That *** was ridiculous. Thats like putting a sticky bomb on you and you started rolling around and avoided the dmg completely.

Counter this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

got 60 in elemental defender, 50 into Critresistance and wearing impen.

Shouldve reflected his frag? Block thru the explosions? Shield breaker?? xD

Lyar09 wrote: »

I can understand the frustration magicka users have against stamina with dodge rolling and toy missing your attacks but what else can we do against higher tool tip magic damage when medium armor doesn't offer much spell resistance. Even with 80-100 cp into elemental defender a stamina build still gets hit for very high damage against magicka users. Y'all have higher tool tip heals and damage shields as defense. We have dodge chance and rolling. I don't understand how that is in balanced

As a stamplar, there are improvements to that playstyle too. You got Major Mending on your restoring light passives, and Rune Focus' morph now gives minor mending and 8% dmg mitigation EVEN when youre not in it.

What i would do is activate major mending thru rune focus and heal up with rally or vigor. I would also try testing to see if Eclipse can reflect jesus beam. You can also try running behind a tree lol. Or purge it with purify.

The only classes would see have real trouble with jesus beam would be a stam sorc and maybe stamdk

Lyar09 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

Too many people have this asinine mentality.

Radiant destruction executes players of a playstyle I hold a personal vendetta against? Balanced.

Do you know why people complain about dying to radiant? Because there's not enough counterplay.
When people die to any other execute in the game, they feel as if there was something they could have done to live a little bit longer. That's not the case with Jesus Beam. It's the only true *execute* in the game, and it seems to be overtuned in terms of damage.

Not enough counter play??
Jesus beam can be LOSed with literally anything.
It can be bashed.
It can be interrupted with Venom arrow or Crushing shock
Its damage can be absorbed.
It can be cleansed.
It can be blocked.
Lets not forget how squishy a templar is when you're pulling those 20k jesus beams. 2-3 wrecking blows and hes out LOL

Honestly man, the only ppl who dont like this are mostly the stamina players who are used to the rolling around heal up and attack maneuver. I lost track of all the players i encountered who would roll around right in front of me as soon as i jesus beamed them. That *** was ridiculous. Thats like putting a sticky bomb on you and you started rolling around and avoided the dmg completely.

Counter this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

got 60 in elemental defender, 50 into Critresistance and wearing impen.

Shouldve reflected his frag? Block thru the explosions? Shield breaker?? xD

Lyar09 wrote: »

I can understand the frustration magicka users have against stamina with dodge rolling and toy missing your attacks but what else can we do against higher tool tip magic damage when medium armor doesn't offer much spell resistance. Even with 80-100 cp into elemental defender a stamina build still gets hit for very high damage against magicka users. Y'all have higher tool tip heals and damage shields as defense. We have dodge chance and rolling. I don't understand how that is in balanced

As a stamplar, there are improvements to that playstyle too. You got Major Mending on your restoring light passives, and Rune Focus' morph now gives minor mending and 8% dmg mitigation EVEN when youre not in it.

What i would do is activate major mending thru rune focus and heal up with rally or vigor. I would also try testing to see if Eclipse can reflect jesus beam. You can also try running behind a tree lol. Or purge it with purify.

The only classes would see have real trouble with jesus beam would be a stam sorc and maybe stamdk

I wasn't speaking about radiant destruction in that instance. Was saying in general. There's a lot of animosity toward stamina builds because of rolling and dodge chance. It's our only defense really

I mean, idk what to tell you if youre having so much trouble against magicka. I dont have that many problems on the stam sorc. Probably because i run 2h/snb and i can reflect things like frags and dark flares, back at them. On my stam sorc, rolling and fast mobility are my real defenses but thats because im playing that "glass cannon" playstyle of maximizing all my dmg and wearing 5 medium.
tbh, i dont have that much animosity toward stamina players [i AM a stamina player], just the fact that we got away with alot of things in the previous meta. I think its just a matter of going back to the drawing board and rethinking the way classes can be played now i.e. magplars just need a good burst so that they can follow up with a jesus beam.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

Too many people have this asinine mentality.

Radiant destruction executes players of a playstyle I hold a personal vendetta against? Balanced.

Do you know why people complain about dying to radiant? Because there's not enough counterplay.
When people die to any other execute in the game, they feel as if there was something they could have done to live a little bit longer. That's not the case with Jesus Beam. It's the only true *execute* in the game, and it seems to be overtuned in terms of damage.

Not enough counter play??
Jesus beam can be LOSed with literally anything.
It can be bashed.
It can be interrupted with Venom arrow or Crushing shock
Its damage can be absorbed.
It can be cleansed.
It can be blocked.
Lets not forget how squishy a templar is when you're pulling those 20k jesus beams. 2-3 wrecking blows and hes out LOL

Honestly man, the only ppl who dont like this are mostly the stamina players who are used to the rolling around heal up and attack maneuver. I lost track of all the players i encountered who would roll around right in front of me as soon as i jesus beamed them. That *** was ridiculous. Thats like putting a sticky bomb on you and you started rolling around and avoided the dmg completely.

Counter this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

got 60 in elemental defender, 50 into Critresistance and wearing impen.

Shouldve reflected his frag? Block thru the explosions? Shield breaker?? xD

Lyar09 wrote: »

I can understand the frustration magicka users have against stamina with dodge rolling and toy missing your attacks but what else can we do against higher tool tip magic damage when medium armor doesn't offer much spell resistance. Even with 80-100 cp into elemental defender a stamina build still gets hit for very high damage against magicka users. Y'all have higher tool tip heals and damage shields as defense. We have dodge chance and rolling. I don't understand how that is in balanced

As a stamplar, there are improvements to that playstyle too. You got Major Mending on your restoring light passives, and Rune Focus' morph now gives minor mending and 8% dmg mitigation EVEN when youre not in it.

What i would do is activate major mending thru rune focus and heal up with rally or vigor. I would also try testing to see if Eclipse can reflect jesus beam. You can also try running behind a tree lol. Or purge it with purify.

The only classes would see have real trouble with jesus beam would be a stam sorc and maybe stamdk

I wasn't speaking about radiant destruction in that instance. Was saying in general. There's a lot of animosity toward stamina builds because of rolling and dodge chance. It's our only defense really

I mean, idk what to tell you if youre having so much trouble against magicka. I dont have that many problems on the stam sorc. Probably because i run 2h/snb and i can reflect things like frags and dark flares, back at them. On my stam sorc, rolling and fast mobility are my real defenses but thats because im playing that "glass cannon" playstyle of maximizing all my dmg and wearing 5 medium.
tbh, i dont have that much animosity toward stamina players [i AM a stamina player], just the fact that we got away with alot of things in the previous meta. I think its just a matter of going back to the drawing board and rethinking the way classes can be played now i.e. magplars just need a good burst so that they can follow up with a jesus beam.

I'm not having problems against magicka players out right. I'm speaking for stamina builds and why dodge rolling and dodge chance is our only defense against magicka players.

Lyar09 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

What exactly was bugged about it? Also what makes it balanced in it being un dodgeable? Every other execute is dodgeable. Shoot a majority of the times sorcs endless fury/mages wrath doesn't even execute. So why does radiant get to be this one special exception?

It was bugged last patch that if:

1. if you and another person were using it at the same time it wasn't getting its execute bonus at all.
2. It was hit or miss if the skill would even crit, half the time it couldn't crit.
3. It was dodgeable when it wasn't supposed to be,

Channeled skills have never been dodgeable in this game, never...not even back as when the game came out in April of 2014 channel attacks were never dodgeable. It was bugged with the Wrothgar update of being dodgeable when it was never supposed to be, Lighting and Resto Staffs heavy attacks were also bugged and dodgeable, im glad they fixed it.

Channeled skills have never been dodgeable you say? Jabs is dodgeable, wrecking blow is dodgeable, dark flare is dodgeable. The only undodgeable channel has been ineveatable det. I can understand the first one being an issue. But not criting as much as you'd like and being dodgeable is just a part of the game. Most magicka users don't have high crit in the first place. Those reasons alone doesn't answer my question as to why radiant destruction should be the exception.

Wrecking Blow just has a small cast time like a hard casted Frag, its not a channel

Jabs is an AOE cone channel the damage is not targeted on a player, its a conal AOE that has to be aimed its really not a comparison to a single target channell like Resto/Lighting Heavy or RD.

Dark Flare isn't a channel, it has a cast time like Frags and Wrecking Blow, none of those skills are Channels.

A channell is a skill that hits a single target and the damage happens over a period of time...Skills like Soul Assault, RD, Resto and Lighting Staff Heavy Attacks, and Examples of channel skills. Jabs is an exception as it's an AOE cone so it makes sense it can be dodged.

Even inevitable det is just a single target spell with a 1.8 second cast time

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Asinine? Channel attacks have never been dodgeable and ZOS has said this over, and over, for 2 years...its intended to be this way. There is plenty of counterplay to Radiant, folks just choose not to use any of them. (Crushing Shock, Venom Arrow, Teleport Strike, Bash, Invasion, Crit Charge, Stonefist, Javelin, Crystal Frag, Agony, Rune Cage, Fossilize, Annulment, Hardened Ward, Igneous Shield, Radiant Ward) 16 counters right there alone off the top of my head, all that will stop the caster dead in his tracks.

Yeah, that's not what I was referring to. I have zero problems with RD being a "reliable" ability for Templars. We are discussing the potency of that reliability.

The downsides that you and countless others cite for Jesus beam are nonissues generally when outnumbering an enemy but are glaringly obvious when outnumbered. This ability is not healthy for the game and was poorly designed/implemented.

When RD is ticking for 3k outside of execute range and ticking for 11k crits when I'm at 25-30% health, I don't see how anyone with any insight into game balance can justify that. I'll do some testing later today to bring some actual data to the thread, but I can assure you that in its current iteration, radiant's overwhelming damage and ease of use doesn't truly allow for intelligible play or counterplay.

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Asinine? Channel attacks have never been dodgeable and ZOS has said this over, and over, for 2 years...its intended to be this way. There is plenty of counterplay to Radiant, folks just choose not to use any of them. (Crushing Shock, Venom Arrow, Teleport Strike, Bash, Invasion, Crit Charge, Stonefist, Javelin, Crystal Frag, Agony, Rune Cage, Fossilize, Annulment, Hardened Ward, Igneous Shield, Radiant Ward) 16 counters right there alone off the top of my head, all that will stop the caster dead in his tracks.

Yeah, that's not what I was referring to. I have zero problems with RD being a "reliable" ability for Templars. We are discussing the potency of that reliability.

The downsides that you and countless others cite for Jesus beam are nonissues generally when outnumbering an enemy but are glaringly obvious when outnumbered. This ability is not healthy for the game and was poorly designed/implemented.

When RD is ticking for 3k outside of execute range and ticking for 11k crits when I'm at 25-30% health, I don't see how anyone with any insight into game balance can justify that. I'll do some testing later today to bring some actual data to the thread, but I can assure you that in its current iteration, radiant's overwhelming damage and ease of use doesn't truly allow for intelligible play or counterplay.

Then the scope of balance leaves the individual spell realm and heads into grouped combat balance.

I hate to say it but this is starting to become a "1vx irrelevancy" issue than an actual ability/class balance issue.

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My tests with Radiant Destruction show nothing more then the skill not being bugged anymore.

Folks got too used to it being bugged last patch by being dodgeable and being unable to crit over half the time...now that has been fixed...you cna't just spam Vigor + Shuffle and avoid every attack in the game anymore. Sounds fair to me.

I don't even use it that often, but atleast now its not useless.

Too many people have this asinine mentality.

Radiant destruction executes players of a playstyle I hold a personal vendetta against? Balanced.

Do you know why people complain about dying to radiant? Because there's not enough counterplay.
When people die to any other execute in the game, they feel as if there was something they could have done to live a little bit longer. That's not the case with Jesus Beam. It's the only true *execute* in the game, and it seems to be overtuned in terms of damage.

Not enough counter play??
Jesus beam can be LOSed with literally anything.
It can be bashed.
It can be interrupted with Venom arrow or Crushing shock
Its damage can be absorbed.
It can be cleansed.
It can be blocked.
Lets not forget how squishy a templar is when you're pulling those 20k jesus beams. 2-3 wrecking blows and hes out LOL

Honestly man, the only ppl who dont like this are mostly the stamina players who are used to the rolling around heal up and attack maneuver. I lost track of all the players i encountered who would roll around right in front of me as soon as i jesus beamed them. That *** was ridiculous. Thats like putting a sticky bomb on you and you started rolling around and avoided the dmg completely.

Counter this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HXdC8NyIM

got 60 in elemental defender, 50 into Critresistance and wearing impen.

Shouldve reflected his frag? Block thru the explosions? Shield breaker?? xD

Lyar09 wrote: »

I can understand the frustration magicka users have against stamina with dodge rolling and toy missing your attacks but what else can we do against higher tool tip magic damage when medium armor doesn't offer much spell resistance. Even with 80-100 cp into elemental defender a stamina build still gets hit for very high damage against magicka users. Y'all have higher tool tip heals and damage shields as defense. We have dodge chance and rolling. I don't understand how that is in balanced

As a stamplar, there are improvements to that playstyle too. You got Major Mending on your restoring light passives, and Rune Focus' morph now gives minor mending and 8% dmg mitigation EVEN when youre not in it.

What i would do is activate major mending thru rune focus and heal up with rally or vigor. I would also try testing to see if Eclipse can reflect jesus beam. You can also try running behind a tree lol. Or purge it with purify.

The only classes would see have real trouble with jesus beam would be a stam sorc and maybe stamdk

Thats not the point.
I can prevent that, yes.

But do u really think, this should be possible?

Do i really think that a magsorc timing his det, curse, and following up with a frag/dawnbreaker should be possible?
Theyve been able to do that since 1.6 on top of stacking 20k shields.

At least now, DoTs will eat their shields now. Tbh, that sorc got you with a well timed burst, nothing broken there.

Yiko wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Then the scope of balance leaves the individual spell realm and heads into grouped combat balance.

I hate to say it but this is starting to become a "1vx irrelevancy" issue than an actual ability/class balance issue.

Grouped combat balance was kept in mind the entire time. This thread is a discussion regarding the relative power of radiant destruction and all applications of its use.

If you mean to say you want to discuss why specifically channeling radiant destruction on one member of a ball group is less effective than three Templars channeling it on 1 solo stam dk, I'd prefer not to.

No I'm saying, at this point in the game, it comes down to how effective a class is versus multiple opponents. RD itself has many counters, but if the dmg output is only an issue within the context of a player facing multiple opponents, at what point do we decide that it's not RD's fault you were hit by 3+ beams from engaging multiple enemies?

I'm saying the discussion line is crossing into that realm, and it would be harder to distinguish any effective ability in this context (try substituting WB for RD in this scenario and tell me WB should have its dmg reduced as a result).